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Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket. I'm not on the 'tax'
Bandwagon as the government squanders alcohol and tobacco taxes. I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances. And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,104
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9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?


What individual liberties exactly?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket.


So you want to make a legal equivalency between a traffic citation, like going 10 MPH over the speed limit, and use, possession, transport, and sale of drugs the caliber of, but not limited to:

1) Heroin
2) Rohypnol (Date Rape Drug)
3) GHB (Date Rape Drug)
4) Roofies (Date Rape Drug)
5) Cat Tranquilizers
6) LSD

You can make a moral and legal equivalency with those in your mind?

I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances.


So it doesn't matter all the violence, oppression and death that came with the drugs making their way to the dealers and users, it also doesn't matter that kids accessed the drugs, it also doesn't matter the indirect violence and death caused to the neighborhoods where the drugs were sold, and it also doesn't matter the murders caused by user overdose with the dealer's illegal product, even tampered product?

And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

You misunderstand Tabula Rasa. This means blank slate, often attributed to a baby's mind upon birth. Tabula Rasa is not retroactive as the crime was already committed while the action was illegal. What you are thinking of, is a full and unconditional pardon / expungement (I do see your use of expunge, but for some reason attempt to attach a Latin phrase that doesn't fit) of criminal records for a particular set of offenses, but even then, although the crime may not be located via public government repositories, it is not gone, it is simply sealed and only accessible by law enforcement personnel, generally with a court order.
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/25/2016 1:34:20 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?


What individual liberties exactly?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket.


So you want to make a legal equivalency between a traffic citation, like going 10 MPH over the speed limit, and use, possession, transport, and sale of drugs the caliber of, but not limited to:

1) Heroin
2) Rohypnol (Date Rape Drug)
3) GHB (Date Rape Drug)
4) Roofies (Date Rape Drug)
5) Cat Tranquilizers
6) LSD

You can make a moral and legal equivalency with those in your mind?

I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances.


So it doesn't matter all the violence, oppression and death that came with the drugs making their way to the dealers and users, it also doesn't matter that kids accessed the drugs, it also doesn't matter the indirect violence and death caused to the neighborhoods where the drugs were sold, and it also doesn't matter the murders caused by user overdose with the dealer's illegal product, even tampered product?

And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

You misunderstand Tabula Rasa. This means blank slate, often attributed to a baby's mind upon birth. Tabula Rasa is not retroactive as the crime was already committed while the action was illegal. What you are thinking of, is a full and unconditional pardon / expungement (I do see your use of expunge, but for some reason attempt to attach a Latin phrase that doesn't fit) of criminal records for a particular set of offenses, but even then, although the crime may not be located via public government repositories, it is not gone, it is simply sealed and only accessible by law enforcement personnel, generally with a court order.

Yep, yep, and yep.

What liberties? Oh where to start: property confiscation, increased surveillance/spying by local, state, federal agencies, guilty till proven instance in almost all possession charges (basically a huge increase in latitude of probable cause) just to name a few. Illegal search and seizures, bloated police forces...

And I do see a direct equivalency with schedule 1s and alcohol, cigarettes, pipe tobacco...

For all the vigilance over the last 44 years, the issue has not improved 1 bit, yet you want to keep throwing good money at bad? In gambling terms, this country is on tilt in how we address the drug issue.
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,104
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9/25/2016 1:53:12 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 1:34:20 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?


What individual liberties exactly?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket.


So you want to make a legal equivalency between a traffic citation, like going 10 MPH over the speed limit, and use, possession, transport, and sale of drugs the caliber of, but not limited to:

1) Heroin
2) Rohypnol (Date Rape Drug)
3) GHB (Date Rape Drug)
4) Roofies (Date Rape Drug)
5) Cat Tranquilizers
6) LSD

You can make a moral and legal equivalency with those in your mind?

I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances.


So it doesn't matter all the violence, oppression and death that came with the drugs making their way to the dealers and users, it also doesn't matter that kids accessed the drugs, it also doesn't matter the indirect violence and death caused to the neighborhoods where the drugs were sold, and it also doesn't matter the murders caused by user overdose with the dealer's illegal product, even tampered product?

And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

You misunderstand Tabula Rasa. This means blank slate, often attributed to a baby's mind upon birth. Tabula Rasa is not retroactive as the crime was already committed while the action was illegal. What you are thinking of, is a full and unconditional pardon / expungement (I do see your use of expunge, but for some reason attempt to attach a Latin phrase that doesn't fit) of criminal records for a particular set of offenses, but even then, although the crime may not be located via public government repositories, it is not gone, it is simply sealed and only accessible by law enforcement personnel, generally with a court order.

Yep, yep, and yep.

What liberties?


Let's start by stating the obvious, any person who commits a crime, inherently, knowingly and willingly risks loss of their individual liberties, rights and freedoms. This being true as judicial guilt of a crime removes an array of rights, freedoms and liberties for a predetermined amount of time.

Oh where to start: property confiscation,


Only with the sale of illegal substances. This because the property was financed through wealth that was illegally obtained. This is the same with check fraud, credit card fraud, money laundering, tax evasion, bank fraud, forgery, accounting fraud, and any other crime which directly earns, or has the potential to earn, substantial amounts of wealth illegally. This is especially true for those career criminals who own property of any type, but have no record of legitimate income to substantiate their claims to said property.

increased surveillance/spying by local, state, federal agencies


Not without proper and legal court orders which are only obtainable via substantial evidence already in possession by law enforcement agencies. Without such evidence, the warrant would be proven illegal by even the most rookie of public defenders during discovery phase of trial. Think of surveillance as the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

guilty till proven instance in almost all possession charges (basically a huge increase in latitude of probable cause) just to name a few. Illegal search and seizures, bloated police forces...


Show me one single example of a trial in which the judge or jury stood up and announced "It should be known, that the most basic of American judicial rights, innocent until proven guilty, will be disregarded in this trial. Instead, the accused shall be guilty until such time as he should prove himself to be innocent."

And I do see a direct equivalency with schedule 1s and alcohol, cigarettes, pipe tobacco...


Let me get this straight...dropping a date rape pill into a female's drink at the club, is the same as her breathing in 2nd hand smoke?

For all the vigilance over the last 44 years, the issue has not improved 1 bit, yet you want to keep throwing good money at bad? In gambling terms, this country is on tilt in how we address the drug issue.


No, we have not put in the effort or directed our energies in the correct direction to fight the drug problem. In your gambling analogy, you are almost correct. However, it would be more like sitting at the Blackjack table, having 21, and asking the dealer to hit you because for some reason you're aiming for 28.
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/25/2016 2:09:21 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
The date rape scenario is still assault.

Drug facts gets this from the us dept of prisons.

50% of fed inmates in jail with drugs as the most serious offense (95k)
53% of state inmates the same (708k)
It does not give a breakdown of county.

Of the close to 4 mill on probation, 25%... Drugs.

I don't use. I actually sponsor heroin addicts (5 currently). Will ods go up? Short term probably. But it's happening already. County and state systems are busting at every seem. It's not 'giving up'... It's just pragmatism.

The guilty till innocent isn't law but it's how the system operates today out of necessity. In my area, they had to create a separate court system just for heroin called rocket docket.

The reality is we lost this long ago. Just as with alcohol, there will still be p.i.'s, dwi's, etc... But we'd eliminate all the felonies that in many states, and federally, get slapped on just because it's schedule 1. Honestly, what's the difference in being wasted on H vs having a .28 bal? Hospital emergency rooms see no difference (when for a site audit last Friday. 20 beds filled at 11 am. 2 injuries, 1 heart attack, and 9 alc poisonings, 8 opiate ods).
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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9/25/2016 2:13:33 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 1:34:20 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?


What individual liberties exactly?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket.


So you want to make a legal equivalency between a traffic citation, like going 10 MPH over the speed limit, and use, possession, transport, and sale of drugs the caliber of, but not limited to:

1) Heroin
2) Rohypnol (Date Rape Drug)
3) GHB (Date Rape Drug)
4) Roofies (Date Rape Drug)
5) Cat Tranquilizers
6) LSD

You can make a moral and legal equivalency with those in your mind?

I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances.


So it doesn't matter all the violence, oppression and death that came with the drugs making their way to the dealers and users, it also doesn't matter that kids accessed the drugs, it also doesn't matter the indirect violence and death caused to the neighborhoods where the drugs were sold, and it also doesn't matter the murders caused by user overdose with the dealer's illegal product, even tampered product?

And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

You misunderstand Tabula Rasa. This means blank slate, often attributed to a baby's mind upon birth. Tabula Rasa is not retroactive as the crime was already committed while the action was illegal. What you are thinking of, is a full and unconditional pardon / expungement (I do see your use of expunge, but for some reason attempt to attach a Latin phrase that doesn't fit) of criminal records for a particular set of offenses, but even then, although the crime may not be located via public government repositories, it is not gone, it is simply sealed and only accessible by law enforcement personnel, generally with a court order.

Yep, yep, and yep.

You would make the possession of date-rape drugs equivalent to a speeding ticket?
Meh!
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/25/2016 3:02:23 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 2:13:33 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 1:34:20 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?


What individual liberties exactly?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket.


So you want to make a legal equivalency between a traffic citation, like going 10 MPH over the speed limit, and use, possession, transport, and sale of drugs the caliber of, but not limited to:

1) Heroin
2) Rohypnol (Date Rape Drug)
3) GHB (Date Rape Drug)
4) Roofies (Date Rape Drug)
5) Cat Tranquilizers
6) LSD

You can make a moral and legal equivalency with those in your mind?

I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances.


So it doesn't matter all the violence, oppression and death that came with the drugs making their way to the dealers and users, it also doesn't matter that kids accessed the drugs, it also doesn't matter the indirect violence and death caused to the neighborhoods where the drugs were sold, and it also doesn't matter the murders caused by user overdose with the dealer's illegal product, even tampered product?

And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

You misunderstand Tabula Rasa. This means blank slate, often attributed to a baby's mind upon birth. Tabula Rasa is not retroactive as the crime was already committed while the action was illegal. What you are thinking of, is a full and unconditional pardon / expungement (I do see your use of expunge, but for some reason attempt to attach a Latin phrase that doesn't fit) of criminal records for a particular set of offenses, but even then, although the crime may not be located via public government repositories, it is not gone, it is simply sealed and only accessible by law enforcement personnel, generally with a court order.

No, I said decriminalize all schedule 1's... Analogous meaning fines vs felonies. I'm not sure if ghb is schedule 1. However using it for its name would still be assault. None of that stuff changes.

The violence and crime are a result of illegality and black market. Let stores apply for a license just like alcohol. Let counties determine if bars can serve. And then enforce intoxications, assaults, driving, underage consumption, etc just like alcohol is.

Yep, yep, and yep.

You would make the possession of date-rape drugs equivalent to a speeding ticket?
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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9/25/2016 3:42:20 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 3:02:23 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 2:13:33 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 1:34:20 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?


What individual liberties exactly?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket.


So you want to make a legal equivalency between a traffic citation, like going 10 MPH over the speed limit, and use, possession, transport, and sale of drugs the caliber of, but not limited to:

1) Heroin
2) Rohypnol (Date Rape Drug)
3) GHB (Date Rape Drug)
4) Roofies (Date Rape Drug)
5) Cat Tranquilizers
6) LSD

You can make a moral and legal equivalency with those in your mind?

I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances.


So it doesn't matter all the violence, oppression and death that came with the drugs making their way to the dealers and users, it also doesn't matter that kids accessed the drugs, it also doesn't matter the indirect violence and death caused to the neighborhoods where the drugs were sold, and it also doesn't matter the murders caused by user overdose with the dealer's illegal product, even tampered product?

And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

You misunderstand Tabula Rasa. This means blank slate, often attributed to a baby's mind upon birth. Tabula Rasa is not retroactive as the crime was already committed while the action was illegal. What you are thinking of, is a full and unconditional pardon / expungement (I do see your use of expunge, but for some reason attempt to attach a Latin phrase that doesn't fit) of criminal records for a particular set of offenses, but even then, although the crime may not be located via public government repositories, it is not gone, it is simply sealed and only accessible by law enforcement personnel, generally with a court order.

No, I said decriminalize all schedule 1's... Analogous meaning fines vs felonies. I'm not sure if ghb is schedule 1. However using it for its name would still be assault. None of that stuff changes.

The violence and crime are a result of illegality and black market. Let stores apply for a license just like alcohol. Let counties determine if bars can serve. And then enforce intoxications, assaults, driving, underage consumption, etc just like alcohol is.

Yep, yep, and yep.

You would make the possession of date-rape drugs equivalent to a speeding ticket?

I think you could agree that possession of a drug used for raping people should be treated as attempted rape?
Meh!
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/25/2016 4:14:29 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 3:42:20 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 3:02:23 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 2:13:33 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 1:34:20 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?


What individual liberties exactly?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket.


So you want to make a legal equivalency between a traffic citation, like going 10 MPH over the speed limit, and use, possession, transport, and sale of drugs the caliber of, but not limited to:

1) Heroin
2) Rohypnol (Date Rape Drug)
3) GHB (Date Rape Drug)
4) Roofies (Date Rape Drug)
5) Cat Tranquilizers
6) LSD

You can make a moral and legal equivalency with those in your mind?

I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances.


So it doesn't matter all the violence, oppression and death that came with the drugs making their way to the dealers and users, it also doesn't matter that kids accessed the drugs, it also doesn't matter the indirect violence and death caused to the neighborhoods where the drugs were sold, and it also doesn't matter the murders caused by user overdose with the dealer's illegal product, even tampered product?

And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

You misunderstand Tabula Rasa. This means blank slate, often attributed to a baby's mind upon birth. Tabula Rasa is not retroactive as the crime was already committed while the action was illegal. What you are thinking of, is a full and unconditional pardon / expungement (I do see your use of expunge, but for some reason attempt to attach a Latin phrase that doesn't fit) of criminal records for a particular set of offenses, but even then, although the crime may not be located via public government repositories, it is not gone, it is simply sealed and only accessible by law enforcement personnel, generally with a court order.

No, I said decriminalize all schedule 1's... Analogous meaning fines vs felonies. I'm not sure if ghb is schedule 1. However using it for its name would still be assault. None of that stuff changes.

The violence and crime are a result of illegality and black market. Let stores apply for a license just like alcohol. Let counties determine if bars can serve. And then enforce intoxications, assaults, driving, underage consumption, etc just like alcohol is.

Yep, yep, and yep.

You would make the possession of date-rape drugs equivalent to a speeding ticket?

I think you could agree that possession of a drug used for raping people should be treated as attempted rape?

It's a schedule 3. Is it treated as attempted rape now, just for possession? No.
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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9/25/2016 4:27:59 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 4:14:29 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 3:42:20 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 3:02:23 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 2:13:33 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 1:34:20 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?


What individual liberties exactly?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket.


So you want to make a legal equivalency between a traffic citation, like going 10 MPH over the speed limit, and use, possession, transport, and sale of drugs the caliber of, but not limited to:

1) Heroin
2) Rohypnol (Date Rape Drug)
3) GHB (Date Rape Drug)
4) Roofies (Date Rape Drug)
5) Cat Tranquilizers
6) LSD

You can make a moral and legal equivalency with those in your mind?

I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances.


So it doesn't matter all the violence, oppression and death that came with the drugs making their way to the dealers and users, it also doesn't matter that kids accessed the drugs, it also doesn't matter the indirect violence and death caused to the neighborhoods where the drugs were sold, and it also doesn't matter the murders caused by user overdose with the dealer's illegal product, even tampered product?

And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

You misunderstand Tabula Rasa. This means blank slate, often attributed to a baby's mind upon birth. Tabula Rasa is not retroactive as the crime was already committed while the action was illegal. What you are thinking of, is a full and unconditional pardon / expungement (I do see your use of expunge, but for some reason attempt to attach a Latin phrase that doesn't fit) of criminal records for a particular set of offenses, but even then, although the crime may not be located via public government repositories, it is not gone, it is simply sealed and only accessible by law enforcement personnel, generally with a court order.

No, I said decriminalize all schedule 1's... Analogous meaning fines vs felonies. I'm not sure if ghb is schedule 1. However using it for its name would still be assault. None of that stuff changes.

The violence and crime are a result of illegality and black market. Let stores apply for a license just like alcohol. Let counties determine if bars can serve. And then enforce intoxications, assaults, driving, underage consumption, etc just like alcohol is.

Yep, yep, and yep.

You would make the possession of date-rape drugs equivalent to a speeding ticket?

I think you could agree that possession of a drug used for raping people should be treated as attempted rape?

It's a schedule 3. Is it treated as attempted rape now, just for possession? No.

Probably should be
Meh!
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,104
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9/25/2016 4:29:57 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 3:02:23 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 2:13:33 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 1:34:20 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?


What individual liberties exactly?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket.


So you want to make a legal equivalency between a traffic citation, like going 10 MPH over the speed limit, and use, possession, transport, and sale of drugs the caliber of, but not limited to:

1) Heroin
2) Rohypnol (Date Rape Drug)
3) GHB (Date Rape Drug)
4) Roofies (Date Rape Drug)
5) Cat Tranquilizers
6) LSD

You can make a moral and legal equivalency with those in your mind?

I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances.


So it doesn't matter all the violence, oppression and death that came with the drugs making their way to the dealers and users, it also doesn't matter that kids accessed the drugs, it also doesn't matter the indirect violence and death caused to the neighborhoods where the drugs were sold, and it also doesn't matter the murders caused by user overdose with the dealer's illegal product, even tampered product?

And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

You misunderstand Tabula Rasa. This means blank slate, often attributed to a baby's mind upon birth. Tabula Rasa is not retroactive as the crime was already committed while the action was illegal. What you are thinking of, is a full and unconditional pardon / expungement (I do see your use of expunge, but for some reason attempt to attach a Latin phrase that doesn't fit) of criminal records for a particular set of offenses, but even then, although the crime may not be located via public government repositories, it is not gone, it is simply sealed and only accessible by law enforcement personnel, generally with a court order.

No, I said decriminalize all schedule 1's... Analogous meaning fines vs felonies. I'm not sure if ghb is schedule 1. However using it for its name would still be assault. None of that stuff changes.


Wait, are you saying that you have absolutely no idea what drugs are listed as schedule 1 substances...yet you want to legalize all of them?

How am I supposed to take you seriously at this point? That's not meant to be a jab or low blow, I'm being 100% serious and straight forward in asking that question.

The violence and crime are a result of illegality and black market. Let stores apply for a license just like alcohol. Let counties determine if bars can serve. And then enforce intoxications, assaults, driving, underage consumption, etc :just like alcohol is.


I just really don't think you understand what you are fighting for or what you are saying with this argument.

Understand that yes, pot is wrongfully categorized, this being due to the inability to regulate, tax and keep a random person from growing plants in their closet. However, the vast majority of substances remaining on the schedule 1 list are not drugs you can function on even relatively normally. These are substances that literally put the user into an extremely deep la-la land; no control of body, no awareness of self, no awareness of environment, no awareness of time. You're not even conscious enough to move for hours at a time, sometimes a couple days. The ones you are somewhat aware of everything on, you're hallucinating so hard, it's like you're living in a whacked out fantasy land.

Please, I beg of you, study and understand the topics you are arguing for or against.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,206
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9/25/2016 4:39:12 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:


Portugal legalized hardcore drugs and it's worked pretty well for them. https://mic.com...

Trying to muddy the waters on decriminalizing date rape drugs isn't helpful when the most common date rape drug used is alcohol. http://www.usatoday.com...
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,104
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9/25/2016 4:41:53 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 4:14:29 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 3:42:20 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 3:02:23 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 2:13:33 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 1:34:20 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?


What individual liberties exactly?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket.


So you want to make a legal equivalency between a traffic citation, like going 10 MPH over the speed limit, and use, possession, transport, and sale of drugs the caliber of, but not limited to:

1) Heroin
2) Rohypnol (Date Rape Drug)
3) GHB (Date Rape Drug)
4) Roofies (Date Rape Drug)
5) Cat Tranquilizers
6) LSD

You can make a moral and legal equivalency with those in your mind?

I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances.


So it doesn't matter all the violence, oppression and death that came with the drugs making their way to the dealers and users, it also doesn't matter that kids accessed the drugs, it also doesn't matter the indirect violence and death caused to the neighborhoods where the drugs were sold, and it also doesn't matter the murders caused by user overdose with the dealer's illegal product, even tampered product?

And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

You misunderstand Tabula Rasa. This means blank slate, often attributed to a baby's mind upon birth. Tabula Rasa is not retroactive as the crime was already committed while the action was illegal. What you are thinking of, is a full and unconditional pardon / expungement (I do see your use of expunge, but for some reason attempt to attach a Latin phrase that doesn't fit) of criminal records for a particular set of offenses, but even then, although the crime may not be located via public government repositories, it is not gone, it is simply sealed and only accessible by law enforcement personnel, generally with a court order.

No, I said decriminalize all schedule 1's... Analogous meaning fines vs felonies. I'm not sure if ghb is schedule 1. However using it for its name would still be assault. None of that stuff changes.

The violence and crime are a result of illegality and black market. Let stores apply for a license just like alcohol. Let counties determine if bars can serve. And then enforce intoxications, assaults, driving, underage consumption, etc just like alcohol is.

Yep, yep, and yep.

You would make the possession of date-rape drugs equivalent to a speeding ticket?

I think you could agree that possession of a drug used for raping people should be treated as attempted rape?

It's a schedule 3. Is it treated as attempted rape now, just for possession? No.

No, it's not. It's a schedule 1 drug still; this means that the drug is dangerous and has absolutely no medicinal values at all, as determined by the FDA.

The act of possessing substances falling under the umbrella of "Date Rape Drugs" is illegal in itself. Here is the breakdown:

1) Illegal at the state level, with penalties changing state to state
2) Illegal at the federal level
3) At the state and federal levels, there are two categories of possession of "Date Rape Drugs":
4) Simple Possession -- Generally 1 - 5 years and / or a maximum of $5,000 fine on both state and federal levels
5) Possession with intent to distribute -- A minimum of 10 years in prison up to life, and / or up to $4,000,000 fine. If distribution causes death or serious bodily injury, jail term is increased to a minimum of 20 years in prison up to life.
MakeSensePeopleDont
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9/25/2016 5:05:27 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 4:39:12 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:


Portugal legalized hardcore drugs and it's worked pretty well for them. https://mic.com...

Trying to muddy the waters on decriminalizing date rape drugs isn't helpful when the most common date rape drug used is alcohol. http://www.usatoday.com...

I've been studying and arguing Portugal's method of attacking hardcore drug use for 7 years now. The thing I find most people do is simply go headline and soundbite sniping, but they never actually dive into the topic or the details to gain any understanding.

This will be a VERY basic overview of the situation in Portugal.

While yes, Portugal has seen a decline in HIV carriers, decline in drug related crime, and a decrease in prison population for drug offenses, there is a clear reason for this....they no longer prosecute these as crimes, except under extreme circumstances.

When a person is found to be in possession of less than a 10 day supply of a drug, they are now presented in front of a multi-person panel consisting of judges and medical professionals.

The majority of the time, the judgment of the panel is literally a wag of the finger, shake of the head, a short lecture of how "That's bad behavior and should be avoided", then happily walked to the front door with a "Have a safe and happy day!"

When penalties ARE levied, they are extremely minimal fines or a short stint in drug counseling.

Here is the MOST important part...instead of the sole source of hard substances being the a$$ on the corner, you instead simply need to walk into one of the medical facilities and the tax payer will front you a nice high...oh, and then you'll walk out and be handed your monthly check, for simply being alive.

So no, Portugal did not decriminalize hard drugs and "POOF!!!" the use statistics just dropped within a year as the misleading statistics show. They simply just hide their drug problem now.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,206
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9/25/2016 6:06:42 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 5:05:27 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:39:12 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:


Portugal legalized hardcore drugs and it's worked pretty well for them. https://mic.com...

Trying to muddy the waters on decriminalizing date rape drugs isn't helpful when the most common date rape drug used is alcohol. http://www.usatoday.com...

I've been studying and arguing Portugal's method of attacking hardcore drug use for 7 years now. The thing I find most people do is simply go headline and soundbite sniping, but they never actually dive into the topic or the details to gain any understanding.

Yea, I've also looked at the data, and there's more good than harm, making it a successful policy shift.

This will be a VERY basic overview of the situation in Portugal.

While yes, Portugal has seen a decline in HIV carriers, decline in drug related crime, and a decrease in prison population for drug offenses, there is a clear reason for this....they no longer prosecute these as crimes, except under extreme circumstances.

It also has a decline in overdose deaths, and decline in overall drug use - which really should be the point of the war on drugs. [http://www.independent.co.uk...][http://www.yesmagazine.org...]

In terms of drug related crime/offenses, yes those would necessary go down as drug use is no longer a crime, but now those cops can do other things like prevent serious and more violent offenses. And again, the other stats are far more compelling.

When a person is found to be in possession of less than a 10 day supply of a drug, they are now presented in front of a multi-person panel consisting of judges and medical professionals.

The majority of the time, the judgment of the panel is literally a wag of the finger, shake of the head, a short lecture of how "That's bad behavior and should be avoided", then happily walked to the front door with a "Have a safe and happy day!"

Would you prefer they are put on the tax payer dime in prison?

When penalties ARE levied, they are extremely minimal fines or a short stint in drug counseling.

Here is the MOST important part...instead of the sole source of hard substances being the a$$ on the corner, you instead simply need to walk into one of the medical facilities and the tax payer will front you a nice high...oh, and then you'll walk out and be handed your monthly check, for simply being alive.

And? The positive effects outweigh the negative by a wide margin.

So no, Portugal did not decriminalize hard drugs and "POOF!!!" the use statistics just dropped within a year as the misleading statistics show. They simply just hide their drug problem now.

Lol They hide their drug problem by destigmatizing it and having it out in the open, that's wonderful logic you got there.
MakeSensePeopleDont
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9/25/2016 7:10:25 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 6:06:42 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 5:05:27 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:39:12 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:


Portugal legalized hardcore drugs and it's worked pretty well for them. https://mic.com...

Trying to muddy the waters on decriminalizing date rape drugs isn't helpful when the most common date rape drug used is alcohol. http://www.usatoday.com...

I've been studying and arguing Portugal's method of attacking hardcore drug use for 7 years now. The thing I find most people do is simply go headline and soundbite sniping, but they never actually dive into the topic or the details to gain any understanding.

Yea, I've also looked at the data, and there's more good than harm, making it a successful policy shift.


If you have looked at the data, then you should understand that Portugal's population was ravaged by heroin use. 1 out of every 100 people was a user. This was due to the fall of the dictatorship and finally having freedoms. This was also the direct cause of increased death rates, HIV rates, OD rates, etc.

This will be a VERY basic overview of the situation in Portugal.

While yes, Portugal has seen a decline in HIV carriers, decline in drug related crime, and a decrease in prison population for drug offenses, there is a clear reason for this....they no longer prosecute these as crimes, except under extreme circumstances.

It also has a decline in overdose deaths, and decline in overall drug use - which really should be the point of the war on drugs. [http://www.independent.co.uk...][http://www.yesmagazine.org...]


Again, you are ignoring the fact that 1 out of every 100 citizens was a heroin user.

In terms of drug related crime/offenses, yes those would necessary go down as drug use is no longer a crime, but now those cops can do other things like prevent serious and more violent offenses. And again, the other stats are far more compelling.


I do agree with the officers being freed up. But again, your other stats are negated by the fact that 1 out of every 100 citizens were users.

When a person is found to be in possession of less than a 10 day supply of a drug, they are now presented in front of a multi-person panel consisting of judges and medical professionals.

The majority of the time, the judgment of the panel is literally a wag of the finger, shake of the head, a short lecture of how "That's bad behavior and should be avoided", then happily walked to the front door with a "Have a safe and happy day!"

Would you prefer they are put on the tax payer dime in prison?


No. I would much rather the war on drugs be fought as a war as it should be. With the U.S. for example, we know exactly where the majority of drugs are coming from; the cartels south of the border. Work with the leaders of those nations and offer up our military assistance to eliminate the cartels and their grow fields and processing labs. If those nations refuse to attack the problem as required, then the U.S. government needs to protect its citizens on its own.

When penalties ARE levied, they are extremely minimal fines or a short stint in drug counseling.

Here is the MOST important part...instead of the sole source of hard substances being the a$$ on the corner, you instead simply need to walk into one of the medical facilities and the tax payer will front you a nice high...oh, and then you'll walk out and be handed your monthly check, for simply being alive.

And? The positive effects outweigh the negative by a wide margin.


This is impossible to measure due to the level of drug use and abuse within Portugal at the time of decriminalization.

So no, Portugal did not decriminalize hard drugs and "POOF!!!" the use statistics just dropped within a year as the misleading statistics show. They simply just hide their drug problem now.

Lol They hide their drug problem by destigmatizing it and having it out in the open, that's wonderful logic you got there.

No, they hide their drug problem behind trash statistics and medical review boards. I would give a comparison to the U.S., but there is literally ZERO ability to compare, with anything at all in America....THAT is how bad the heroin problem in Portugal was.
Chang29
Posts: 732
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9/25/2016 7:39:22 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket. I'm not on the 'tax'
Bandwagon as the government squanders alcohol and tobacco taxes. I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances. And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

One question I have about the "war on drugs", if alcohol prohibition required amending the Constitution, why did drug prohibition not require the same process?
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,206
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9/25/2016 7:43:07 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 7:10:25 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 6:06:42 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 5:05:27 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:39:12 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:


Portugal legalized hardcore drugs and it's worked pretty well for them. https://mic.com...

Trying to muddy the waters on decriminalizing date rape drugs isn't helpful when the most common date rape drug used is alcohol. http://www.usatoday.com...

I've been studying and arguing Portugal's method of attacking hardcore drug use for 7 years now. The thing I find most people do is simply go headline and soundbite sniping, but they never actually dive into the topic or the details to gain any understanding.

Yea, I've also looked at the data, and there's more good than harm, making it a successful policy shift.


If you have looked at the data, then you should understand that Portugal's population was ravaged by heroin use. 1 out of every 100 people was a user. This was due to the fall of the dictatorship and finally having freedoms. This was also the direct cause of increased death rates, HIV rates, OD rates, etc.

This is a contradiction; you say heroin use was high because there was more freedom after the dictatorship, which ended in 1974 - so from 74 to 2001 there was more freedom ergo more drug use - but in 2001 the policy did not limit freedom, it made it even more free yet use and other negatives aspects of drugs declined. This doesn't make sense. You ignore my points by saying drug use was really bad, yet it doesn't negate the fact that things like OD's are lower than average the EU. Going from one extreme to other other shows that the policy was successful you can't deny that.

When a person is found to be in possession of less than a 10 day supply of a drug, they are now presented in front of a multi-person panel consisting of judges and medical professionals.

The majority of the time, the judgment of the panel is literally a wag of the finger, shake of the head, a short lecture of how "That's bad behavior and should be avoided", then happily walked to the front door with a "Have a safe and happy day!"

Would you prefer they are put on the tax payer dime in prison?


No. I would much rather the war on drugs be fought as a war as it should be. With the U.S. for example, we know exactly where the majority of drugs are coming from; the cartels south of the border. Work with the leaders of those nations and offer up our military assistance to eliminate the cartels and their grow fields and processing labs. If those nations refuse to attack the problem as required, then the U.S. government needs to protect its citizens on its own.

Ah yes, good ol police of the world strategy. We tried that in Colombia and it lead to the rise of the mexican cartels. Currently Afghanistan produces 90% of the worlds heroin, should we reinvade and permanently occupy? It's a multi-billion dollar game of wacka mole and it encourages drug sales and addiction. You should read the books 'Drug War Crimes' by Jeffery Miron and 'Drug War Policies' by Eva Bertram.

When penalties ARE levied, they are extremely minimal fines or a short stint in drug counseling.

Here is the MOST important part...instead of the sole source of hard substances being the a$$ on the corner, you instead simply need to walk into one of the medical facilities and the tax payer will front you a nice high...oh, and then you'll walk out and be handed your monthly check, for simply being alive.

And? The positive effects outweigh the negative by a wide margin.


This is impossible to measure due to the level of drug use and abuse within Portugal at the time of decriminalization.

Impossible? You're not even trying. Are you saying that had Portugal not implemented this policy the drug problems would have decreased anyways?

So no, Portugal did not decriminalize hard drugs and "POOF!!!" the use statistics just dropped within a year as the misleading statistics show. They simply just hide their drug problem now.

Lol They hide their drug problem by destigmatizing it and having it out in the open, that's wonderful logic you got there.

No, they hide their drug problem behind trash statistics and medical review boards. I would give a comparison to the U.S., but there is literally ZERO ability to compare, with anything at all in America....THAT is how bad the heroin problem in Portugal was.

Again, going from one extreme to the other shows the policy was a success, I don't see why you're not getting this. And there is room for comparison in minor ways, we're already seeing positive results from marijuana legalization in Colorado.

Weed profits are down for cartels: http://time.com...
And the state saves money on criminal related costs as Portugal did. https://www.leafly.com...
Bennett91
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9/25/2016 7:45:15 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 7:39:22 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket. I'm not on the 'tax'
Bandwagon as the government squanders alcohol and tobacco taxes. I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances. And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

One question I have about the "war on drugs", if alcohol prohibition required amending the Constitution, why did drug prohibition not require the same process?

Because alcohol was made illegal by Constitutional amendment, narcotics were made illegal by legislation.
Chang29
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9/25/2016 8:18:55 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 7:45:15 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 7:39:22 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket. I'm not on the 'tax'
Bandwagon as the government squanders alcohol and tobacco taxes. I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances. And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

One question I have about the "war on drugs", if alcohol prohibition required amending the Constitution, why did drug prohibition not require the same process?

Because alcohol was made illegal by Constitutional amendment, narcotics were made illegal by legislation.

The drug prohibition should have required a Constitutional amendment, just as alcohol did.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Bennett91
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9/25/2016 8:26:22 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 8:18:55 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 7:45:15 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 7:39:22 AM, Chang29 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket. I'm not on the 'tax'
Bandwagon as the government squanders alcohol and tobacco taxes. I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances. And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

One question I have about the "war on drugs", if alcohol prohibition required amending the Constitution, why did drug prohibition not require the same process?

Because alcohol was made illegal by Constitutional amendment, narcotics were made illegal by legislation.

The drug prohibition should have required a Constitutional amendment, just as alcohol did.

Constitutional amendments are extremely difficult to pass and they are extremely difficult to repeal. The anti-alcohol amendment is the only one to be repealed. I agree that the war on drugs is foolish as was prohibition, but because it's legislation based we can repeal the laws much more easily. And States like Colorado can be rebellious with legalization going federal law without directly violating the Constitution.
MakeSensePeopleDont
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9/25/2016 10:22:45 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 7:43:07 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 7:10:25 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:

If you have looked at the data, then you should understand that Portugal's population was ravaged by heroin use. 1 out of every 100 people was a user. This was due to the fall of the dictatorship and finally having freedoms. This was also the direct cause of increased death rates, HIV rates, OD rates, etc.

This is a contradiction; you say heroin use was high because there was more freedom after the dictatorship, which ended in 1974 - so from 74 to 2001 there was more freedom ergo more drug use - but in 2001 the policy did not limit freedom, it made it even more :free yet use and other negatives aspects of drugs declined. This doesn't make sense.


Yet it makes perfect sense if you actually think about the shear size and weight of the Heroine epidemic. 1 out of every 100 citizens. This does not account for the use and abuse of pot, LSD, Amphetamines, Cocaine, Crack, Ecstasy, Shrooms, and more. These affected an even larger portion of the population prior to decriminalization.

With as large of the numbers as we see, simply legalizing drugs and altering the addict's normal behaviors would deter them. This is even more so when paranoid abusers are faced with the choice of continuing abuse in front of the authorities or giving up the addictions.

More importantly, after suffering through a dictatorship, likened to that of Hitler and Mussolini for 40 years, once freedom was tasted, they over-indulged. Once the change took place in 2001, The true addicts remain addicts, while the occasional users we're given access to the help they needed in order to kick their minor habit.

You ignore my points by saying drug use was really bad, yet it doesn't negate the fact that things like OD's are lower than average the EU. Going from one extreme to other other shows that the policy was successful you can't deny that.


Yet a well-versed individual can indeed argue against this fact. Firstly, you are taking the average of the entirety of the EU which is extremely misleading. See, the E.U. OD stats by nation show a clear divide between the low-end and the high-end. The low-end half of nations which Portugal is part of, are all under 8.5 with a couple reaching up to around 12.5. The high-end half of nations ranges from 25.0 to 130.5. These high-end nations skew the average terribly.

However, although Portugal is second least with OD rate, which is impressive taken face value. When you begin to dig into citizen overall health; respiratory, circulatory, cardiac issues, etc., there appears a different tale. Prolonged, legalized, government approved drug abuse, although cuts down on immediate negative health effects, contributes heavily to the long-term health issues of its citizens.


No. I would much rather the war on drugs be fought as a war as it should be. With the U.S. for example, we know exactly where the majority of drugs are coming from; the cartels south of the border. Work with the leaders of those nations and offer up our military assistance to eliminate the cartels and their grow fields and processing labs. If those nations refuse to attack the problem as required, then the U.S. government needs to protect its citizens on its own.

Ah yes, good ol police of the world strategy. We tried that in Colombia and it lead to the rise of the mexican cartels. Currently Afghanistan produces 90% of the worlds heroin, should we reinvade and permanently occupy? It's a multi-billion dollar game of wacka mole and it encourages drug sales and addiction. You should read the books 'Drug War Crimes' by Jeffery Miron and 'Drug War Policies' by Eva Bertram.


Once again, you misunderstand my statement. I never said the U.S. should run around the world military stomping whomever they wish. I said the U.S. should work with the governments of nations who pose the largest drug risk to the U.S., in order to strategically and with extreme prejudice, eliminate grow fields, production plants, leadership, and the flow of currency. This, effectively crippling the drug trade from South America, which is the top supplier of drugs to the U.S.

Although Afghanistan produces 90% of the world's heroin, it's minimal in the U.S., and the majority that does enter the states, comes mainly through the cartel routes through the South.


This is impossible to measure due to the level of drug use and abuse within Portugal at the time of decriminalization.

Impossible? You're not even trying. Are you saying that had Portugal not implemented this policy the drug problems would have decreased anyways?


No, what I am saying is it is impossible to quantify positive effects versus negative effects overall of the policy in question as no standardized, peer reviewed, repeating research is being completed. Additionally, the long-term effects on the individual and the nation are impossible to quantify....unless imagination and pure opinionated guess work are now acceptable criteria for scientific research. So again, it is impossible.


No, they hide their drug problem behind trash statistics and medical review boards. I would give a comparison to the U.S., but there is literally ZERO ability to compare, with anything at all in America....THAT is how bad the heroin problem in Portugal was.

Again, going from one extreme to the other shows the policy was a success, I don't see why you're not getting this.


OK, prove your statement then. Tell me how many drug abusers in Portugal will suffer long-term health issues from prolonged use of government sponsored hard drugs. Don't fall into the trap of short-term results forming a conclusion when you need to play the long game. We made that mistake with Asbestos.

And there is room for comparison in minor ways, we're already seeing positive results from marijuana legalization in Colorado.


Like illegal interstate transport and sale? Like the sharp increase in child and animal OD from edibles? Like millions in tax revenue literally vanishing annually? Or is it the mass migration of homeless vagrants to Colorado, flooding the streets and parks?

Weed profits are down for cartels: http://time.com...


Yet Heroin, Meth and Fentanyl profits are more than covering the loss.

And the state saves money on criminal related costs as Portugal did. https://www.leafly.com...

A cost which is happily offset by the influx of homeless population, moving to get in on the pot craze. Let's not ignore the increase in pot related traffic incidents, injuries and deaths or the increases in hospital visits.
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/25/2016 12:07:03 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 4:27:59 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:14:29 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 3:42:20 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 3:02:23 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 2:13:33 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 1:34:20 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?


What individual liberties exactly?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket.


So you want to make a legal equivalency between a traffic citation, like going 10 MPH over the speed limit, and use, possession, transport, and sale of drugs the caliber of, but not limited to:

1) Heroin
2) Rohypnol (Date Rape Drug)
3) GHB (Date Rape Drug)
4) Roofies (Date Rape Drug)
5) Cat Tranquilizers
6) LSD

You can make a moral and legal equivalency with those in your mind?

I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances.


So it doesn't matter all the violence, oppression and death that came with the drugs making their way to the dealers and users, it also doesn't matter that kids accessed the drugs, it also doesn't matter the indirect violence and death caused to the neighborhoods where the drugs were sold, and it also doesn't matter the murders caused by user overdose with the dealer's illegal product, even tampered product?

And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

You misunderstand Tabula Rasa. This means blank slate, often attributed to a baby's mind upon birth. Tabula Rasa is not retroactive as the crime was already committed while the action was illegal. What you are thinking of, is a full and unconditional pardon / expungement (I do see your use of expunge, but for some reason attempt to attach a Latin phrase that doesn't fit) of criminal records for a particular set of offenses, but even then, although the crime may not be located via public government repositories, it is not gone, it is simply sealed and only accessible by law enforcement personnel, generally with a court order.

No, I said decriminalize all schedule 1's... Analogous meaning fines vs felonies. I'm not sure if ghb is schedule 1. However using it for its name would still be assault. None of that stuff changes.

The violence and crime are a result of illegality and black market. Let stores apply for a license just like alcohol. Let counties determine if bars can serve. And then enforce intoxications, assaults, driving, underage consumption, etc just like alcohol is.

Yep, yep, and yep.

You would make the possession of date-rape drugs equivalent to a speeding ticket?

I think you could agree that possession of a drug used for raping people should be treated as attempted rape?

It's a schedule 3. Is it treated as attempted rape now, just for possession? No.

Probably should be

Maybe, maybe not. But that does hit part of why I've came to this conclusion: possession resulting in felony charges? And we as a society wonder why our liberties are being eroded, are jails are bursting, and our legal system has effectively broken itself with a back logged docket?
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/25/2016 12:13:43 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 4:29:57 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 3:02:23 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 2:13:33 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 1:34:20 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?


What individual liberties exactly?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket.


So you want to make a legal equivalency between a traffic citation, like going 10 MPH over the speed limit, and use, possession, transport, and sale of drugs the caliber of, but not limited to:

1) Heroin
2) Rohypnol (Date Rape Drug)
3) GHB (Date Rape Drug)
4) Roofies (Date Rape Drug)
5) Cat Tranquilizers
6) LSD

You can make a moral and legal equivalency with those in your mind?

I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances.


So it doesn't matter all the violence, oppression and death that came with the drugs making their way to the dealers and users, it also doesn't matter that kids accessed the drugs, it also doesn't matter the indirect violence and death caused to the neighborhoods where the drugs were sold, and it also doesn't matter the murders caused by user overdose with the dealer's illegal product, even tampered product?

And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

You misunderstand Tabula Rasa. This means blank slate, often attributed to a baby's mind upon birth. Tabula Rasa is not retroactive as the crime was already committed while the action was illegal. What you are thinking of, is a full and unconditional pardon / expungement (I do see your use of expunge, but for some reason attempt to attach a Latin phrase that doesn't fit) of criminal records for a particular set of offenses, but even then, although the crime may not be located via public government repositories, it is not gone, it is simply sealed and only accessible by law enforcement personnel, generally with a court order.

No, I said decriminalize all schedule 1's... Analogous meaning fines vs felonies. I'm not sure if ghb is schedule 1. However using it for its name would still be assault. None of that stuff changes.


Wait, are you saying that you have absolutely no idea what drugs are listed as schedule 1 substances...yet you want to legalize all of them?

How am I supposed to take you seriously at this point? That's not meant to be a jab or low blow, I'm being 100% serious and straight forward in asking that question.

The violence and crime are a result of illegality and black market. Let stores apply for a license just like alcohol. Let counties determine if bars can serve. And then enforce intoxications, assaults, driving, underage consumption, etc :just like alcohol is.


I just really don't think you understand what you are fighting for or what you are saying with this argument.

Understand that yes, pot is wrongfully categorized, this being due to the inability to regulate, tax and keep a random person from growing plants in their closet. However, the vast majority of substances remaining on the schedule 1 list are not drugs you can function on even relatively normally. These are substances that literally put the user into an extremely deep la-la land; no control of body, no awareness of self, no awareness of environment, no awareness of time. You're not even conscious enough to move for hours at a time, sometimes a couple days. The ones you are somewhat aware of everything on, you're hallucinating so hard, it's like you're living in a whacked out fantasy land.

Please, I beg of you, study and understand the topics you are arguing for or against.

Wtf are you talking about? I said I wasn't sure about ghb, the most common 'date rape drug'. Talk about jumping to a fvcking ridiculous assumption.

It's not hard to find DEA lists. All I do for work is research and find inconsistencies in the CFR, mostly healthcare data point related. It seems that too many are stuck in the 'just say no' campaign that too was an abysmal failure.

You talk about violence. The violence is do to the illegality and black market and where there is a demand, there will be a supplier. But another point on the lets keep doing what we are doing because it's so effective: we have effectively created a cartel funded army in Mexico that at any time could overwhelm our border patrol, let alone what it's done to Mexico.

https://www.drugs.com...
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,104
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9/25/2016 12:25:28 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 12:07:03 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:27:59 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:14:29 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 3:42:20 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 3:02:23 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 2:13:33 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 1:34:20 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?


What individual liberties exactly?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket.


So you want to make a legal equivalency between a traffic citation, like going 10 MPH over the speed limit, and use, possession, transport, and sale of drugs the caliber of, but not limited to:

1) Heroin
2) Rohypnol (Date Rape Drug)
3) GHB (Date Rape Drug)
4) Roofies (Date Rape Drug)
5) Cat Tranquilizers
6) LSD

You can make a moral and legal equivalency with those in your mind?

I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances.


So it doesn't matter all the violence, oppression and death that came with the drugs making their way to the dealers and users, it also doesn't matter that kids accessed the drugs, it also doesn't matter the indirect violence and death caused to the neighborhoods where the drugs were sold, and it also doesn't matter the murders caused by user overdose with the dealer's illegal product, even tampered product?

And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

You misunderstand Tabula Rasa. This means blank slate, often attributed to a baby's mind upon birth. Tabula Rasa is not retroactive as the crime was already committed while the action was illegal. What you are thinking of, is a full and unconditional pardon / expungement (I do see your use of expunge, but for some reason attempt to attach a Latin phrase that doesn't fit) of criminal records for a particular set of offenses, but even then, although the crime may not be located via public government repositories, it is not gone, it is simply sealed and only accessible by law enforcement personnel, generally with a court order.

No, I said decriminalize all schedule 1's... Analogous meaning fines vs felonies. I'm not sure if ghb is schedule 1. However using it for its name would still be assault. None of that stuff changes.

The violence and crime are a result of illegality and black market. Let stores apply for a license just like alcohol. Let counties determine if bars can serve. And then enforce intoxications, assaults, driving, underage consumption, etc just like alcohol is.

Yep, yep, and yep.

You would make the possession of date-rape drugs equivalent to a speeding ticket?

I think you could agree that possession of a drug used for raping people should be treated as attempted rape?

It's a schedule 3. Is it treated as attempted rape now, just for possession? No.

Probably should be

Maybe, maybe not. But that does hit part of why I've came to this conclusion: possession resulting in felony :charges?


Why are you so adamant about blaming the justice system, instead of blaming the criminal? You know why I'm responding to you here instead of being charged with a felony, sitting in a jail cell for possession? Because I simply do the right thing...I follow the law. The laws aren't that outlandish or unfair, just do what you are supposed to do.

Is there a problem with that? Am I missing something?

And we as a society wonder why our liberties are being eroded


What liberties exactly?

are jails are bursting


Again, stop blaming the justice system for doing it's job, and start blaming the criminal for NOT doing the right thing.

and our legal system has effectively broken itself with a back logged docket?


Again, is it the justice system's fault that so many people in America make the conscious and willful decision to NOT follow the laws; to NOT do the right thing?

If you are going to place blame, make sure you place it in the right place.
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/25/2016 12:27:33 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
For a self described conservative, you sure seem to enjoy growth of government and overreach. That's exactly the mentality that drove me from the conservative side of the spectrum to independent.

'Working with governments to eradicate their fields'... Wtf you think we did in Colombia for 20 years with no effect. And I was part of the Air Force at the time based in Howard (Panama) that was our sole mission: drug interdiction.

I won't call people naive, or even wrong. But our prosecution of the war on drugs, and every argument being made against decriminalization, is specious at best. It's repeating the same mantra that has not worked for 40 years.

But, to some, it's like Mr. Mackey from South Park: drugs are bad, mm Kay.
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/25/2016 12:32:28 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 12:25:28 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:07:03 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:27:59 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:14:29 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 3:42:20 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 3:02:23 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 2:13:33 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/25/2016 1:34:20 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:31:46 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
We lost this before Nixon declared it. How many trillions, and individual liberties, have went down the drain do to this disastrous policy?


What individual liberties exactly?

This may not be popular but I'm all for decriminalizing ALL schedule 1 drugs. Over a certain amount, treat it similar to a speeding ticket.


So you want to make a legal equivalency between a traffic citation, like going 10 MPH over the speed limit, and use, possession, transport, and sale of drugs the caliber of, but not limited to:

1) Heroin
2) Rohypnol (Date Rape Drug)
3) GHB (Date Rape Drug)
4) Roofies (Date Rape Drug)
5) Cat Tranquilizers
6) LSD

You can make a moral and legal equivalency with those in your mind?

I'm also for releasing ALL county, state, federal prisoners with possession/trafficking charges as long as there are no violence or illegal possession of handguns as mitigating circumstances.


So it doesn't matter all the violence, oppression and death that came with the drugs making their way to the dealers and users, it also doesn't matter that kids accessed the drugs, it also doesn't matter the indirect violence and death caused to the neighborhoods where the drugs were sold, and it also doesn't matter the murders caused by user overdose with the dealer's illegal product, even tampered product?

And the court systems will have ONLY 6 months to expunge ALL current and past convictions from people's records. No reparations or anything like that, just tabula rasa.

You misunderstand Tabula Rasa. This means blank slate, often attributed to a baby's mind upon birth. Tabula Rasa is not retroactive as the crime was already committed while the action was illegal. What you are thinking of, is a full and unconditional pardon / expungement (I do see your use of expunge, but for some reason attempt to attach a Latin phrase that doesn't fit) of criminal records for a particular set of offenses, but even then, although the crime may not be located via public government repositories, it is not gone, it is simply sealed and only accessible by law enforcement personnel, generally with a court order.

No, I said decriminalize all schedule 1's... Analogous meaning fines vs felonies. I'm not sure if ghb is schedule 1. However using it for its name would still be assault. None of that stuff changes.

The violence and crime are a result of illegality and black market. Let stores apply for a license just like alcohol. Let counties determine if bars can serve. And then enforce intoxications, assaults, driving, underage consumption, etc just like alcohol is.

Yep, yep, and yep.

You would make the possession of date-rape drugs equivalent to a speeding ticket?

I think you could agree that possession of a drug used for raping people should be treated as attempted rape?

It's a schedule 3. Is it treated as attempted rape now, just for possession? No.

Probably should be

Maybe, maybe not. But that does hit part of why I've came to this conclusion: possession resulting in felony :charges?


Why are you so adamant about blaming the justice system, instead of blaming the criminal? You know why I'm responding to you here instead of being charged with a felony, sitting in a jail cell for possession? Because I simply do the right thing...I follow the law. The laws aren't that outlandish or unfair, just do what you are supposed to do.

Is there a problem with that? Am I missing something?

And we as a society wonder why our liberties are being eroded


What liberties exactly?

are jails are bursting


Again, stop blaming the justice system for doing it's job, and start blaming the criminal for NOT doing the right thing.

and our legal system has effectively broken itself with a back logged docket?


Again, is it the justice system's fault that so many people in America make the conscious and willful decision to NOT follow the laws; to NOT do the right thing?

If you are going to place blame, make sure you place it in the right place.

Blame is irrelevant and no one is blaming the justice system. It's irrelevant at this point because people are NOT going to do the right thing and courts, counties, pd's are overwhelmed.

Let people have access so they can od and die. Harsh but that is all a user will understand to decide to do the right thing or not.
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,104
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9/25/2016 1:01:02 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 12:13:43 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:29:57 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 3:02:23 AM, Stymie13 wrote:

No, I said decriminalize all schedule 1's... Analogous meaning fines vs felonies. I'm not sure if ghb is schedule 1. However using it for its name would still be assault. None of that stuff changes.


Wait, are you saying that you have absolutely no idea what drugs are listed as schedule 1 substances...yet you want to legalize all of them?

How am I supposed to take you seriously at this point? That's not meant to be a jab or low blow, I'm being 100% serious and straight forward in asking that question.

The violence and crime are a result of illegality and black market. Let stores apply for a license just like alcohol. Let counties determine if bars can serve. And then enforce intoxications, assaults, driving, underage consumption, etc :just like alcohol is.


I just really don't think you understand what you are fighting for or what you are saying with this argument.

Understand that yes, pot is wrongfully categorized, this being due to the inability to regulate, tax and keep a random person from growing plants in their closet. However, the vast majority of substances remaining on the schedule 1 list are not drugs you can function on even relatively normally. These are substances that literally put the user into an extremely deep la-la land; no control of body, no awareness of self, no awareness of environment, no awareness of time. You're not even conscious enough to move for hours at a time, sometimes a couple days. The ones you are somewhat aware of everything on, you're hallucinating so hard, it's like you're living in a whacked out fantasy land.

Please, I beg of you, study and understand the topics you are arguing for or against.

Wtf are you talking about? I said I wasn't sure about ghb, the most common 'date rape drug'. Talk about jumping to a fvcking ridiculous assumption.


Well since GHB is #3 on the list, it's safe to say you never studied the list.

It's not hard to find DEA lists. All I do for work is research and find inconsistencies in the CFR, mostly healthcare data point related. It seems that too many are stuck in the 'just say no' campaign that too was an abysmal failure.


So you read regulatory documents, find conflicts, and send them off for review and updating...and that's supposed to add substance to this dialog how?

I never said anything about the "Just Say No" campaign.

You talk about violence. The violence is do to the illegality and black market and where there is a demand, there will be a supplier.


Yes, because drugs and alcohol are not mood altering substances that can cause violent outbursts or aggressive tendencies. No, not at all...the black market and supply and demand are the cause.

But another point on the lets keep doing what we are doing because it's so effective: we have effectively created a cartel funded army in Mexico that at any time could overwhelm our border patrol, let alone what it's done to Mexico.

https://www.drugs.com...


Or we can take your approach and just legalize everything, cross our fingers, and hope that our nation of 325 million people can replicate the perceived and ignorant opinions that appear as the outcome of Portugal, a nation of 10.5 million people.

If the problem is Mexico and the Mexican Cartels, then why not attack the problem at it's source, instead of playing games with American lives?
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,104
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9/25/2016 1:10:34 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 12:32:28 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:25:28 PM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:07:03 PM, Stymie13 wrote:

Maybe, maybe not. But that does hit part of why I've came to this conclusion: possession resulting in felony :charges?


Why are you so adamant about blaming the justice system, instead of blaming the criminal? You know why I'm responding to you here instead of being charged with a felony, sitting in a jail cell for possession? Because I simply do the right thing...I follow the law. The laws aren't that outlandish or unfair, just do what you are supposed to do.

Is there a problem with that? Am I missing something?

And we as a society wonder why our liberties are being eroded


What liberties exactly?

are jails are bursting


Again, stop blaming the justice system for doing it's job, and start blaming the criminal for NOT doing the right thing.

and our legal system has effectively broken itself with a back logged docket?


Again, is it the justice system's fault that so many people in America make the conscious and willful decision to NOT follow the laws; to NOT do the right thing?

If you are going to place blame, make sure you place it in the right place.

Blame is irrelevant and no one is blaming the justice system.


Well actually, that's all you did in your last post; point your finger at everyone and everything except the person committing the crime.

It's irrelevant at this point because people are NOT going to do the right thing and courts, counties, pd's are overwhelmed.


So instead of punishment for wrong doing, let's just legalize that illegal act that people aren't following? By your standard, we should just get rid of every single law on the books and replace them all with laws which nobody ever breaks.

How about we start with this new law: "If any person, for any reason, after dropping a deuce, wipes their a$$ in a side-to-side motion, this will be deemed a felony. Punishable by no less than 1 year in prison, no more than 10 years in prison, and / or a fine of no more than $1,000,000."

That's a good start.

Let people have access so they can od and die. Harsh but that is all a user will understand to decide to do the right thing or not.

....Until a child is the one who ODs....then what? A child may not have the understanding required of that substance.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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9/25/2016 1:25:18 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 4:39:12 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:56:13 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:


Portugal legalized hardcore drugs and it's worked pretty well for them. https://mic.com...

Trying to muddy the waters on decriminalizing date rape drugs isn't helpful when the most common date rape drug used is alcohol. http://www.usatoday.com...

I agree completely. The best argument they have left is Rohypnol? Jagermeister is cheap and has just about the same effect.