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Is Trump Right?

slo1
Posts: 4,351
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9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/26/2016 12:30:10 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Fvck no... Stop and frisk is bs. In another thread someone was making a case the war on drugs hasn't eroded civil liberties at all. The 'acceptance' some grant in regards to probable cause has allowed law enforcement to get to the point of... He has a hooded sweatshirt on, that's probable cause.

Extreme example? Not really.
Grizzly-Jones
Posts: 90
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9/26/2016 12:32:36 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Replace 4th, with 2nd, and tell me if you care about it. If not, you shouldn't being using the constitution in your arguments.

I'm against violating both of them.
slo1
Posts: 4,351
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9/26/2016 12:34:47 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 12:30:10 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Fvck no... Stop and frisk is bs. In another thread someone was making a case the war on drugs hasn't eroded civil liberties at all. The 'acceptance' some grant in regards to probable cause has allowed law enforcement to get to the point of... He has a hooded sweatshirt on, that's probable cause.

Extreme example? Not really.

You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, many people think, "I have nothing to hide", so they don't care.
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/26/2016 12:36:41 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 12:34:47 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:30:10 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Fvck no... Stop and frisk is bs. In another thread someone was making a case the war on drugs hasn't eroded civil liberties at all. The 'acceptance' some grant in regards to probable cause has allowed law enforcement to get to the point of... He has a hooded sweatshirt on, that's probable cause.

Extreme example? Not really.

You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, many people think, "I have nothing to hide", so they don't care.

Besides suffrage and the eradication of slavery, I have little to no use for amendments 11-27.
slo1
Posts: 4,351
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9/26/2016 12:37:52 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 12:32:36 AM, Grizzly-Jones wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Replace 4th, with 2nd, and tell me if you care about it. If not, you shouldn't being using the constitution in your arguments.

I'm against violating both of them.

Why would I not support the 2nd amendment? I just support background checks on all gun sales. It should not be possible for me to sell my gun to a felon or a person ruled not fit to have a gun in TX without a background check.

That D-bag in WA who just shot up a mall was ruled by a court to not be eligible for a gun. I wonder how he got his.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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9/26/2016 1:01:00 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Guess I won't be voting for him after all! For a minute I was actually considering it. I think with this statement he is trying to throw the election for Hillary, as was his intention in running from the beginning. Recently more minorities have been showing support for him, and he is obviously trying to push them in Hillary's direction.
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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9/26/2016 1:05:02 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Trump is right about everything. You can't let criminals and terrorists use your freedoms and rights against you. You must profile if they fit the profile. Law enforcement and national security 101.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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9/26/2016 1:07:09 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 1:05:02 AM, sadolite wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Trump is right about everything. You can't let criminals and terrorists use your freedoms and rights against you. You must profile if they fit the profile. Law enforcement and national security 101.

What profile? American citizen's have rights. Clothing styles or cultural norms aren't illegal.
Grizzly-Jones
Posts: 90
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9/26/2016 1:15:47 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 1:05:02 AM, sadolite wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Trump is right about everything. You can't let criminals and terrorists use your freedoms and rights against you. You must profile if they fit the profile. Law enforcement and national security 101.

This makes no sense. You expect us to give up our rights, to stop people from taking our rights?
triangle.128k
Posts: 3,646
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9/26/2016 1:56:19 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

wtf I hate trump now
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/26/2016 1:59:02 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 1:05:02 AM, sadolite wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Trump is right about everything. You can't let criminals and terrorists use your freedoms and rights against you. You must profile if they fit the profile. Law enforcement and national security 101.

So says the totalitarian state...
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/26/2016 2:01:18 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
Everyone, read the stop and frisk which grew out of the broken window theory. It's even more honerous. The don't need 'probable cause' but 'reasonable clause' which is an even lower standard!
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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9/26/2016 6:51:29 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 2:01:18 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
Everyone, read the stop and frisk which grew out of the broken window theory. It's even more honerous. The don't need 'probable cause' but 'reasonable clause' which is an even lower standard!

Is he a cousin of Santa Claus?
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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9/26/2016 7:30:21 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Terry v. Ohio (1968) pretty much nullifies the 4th Amendment if the cop as 'reasonable suspicion'. https://en.wikipedia.org...

And even when there is no reasonable suspicion any evidence gather is admissible in Court if you have a warrant for an unrelated offense. http://www.npr.org...

The policy itself does not seem to effect crime either way. [http://www.theatlantic.com...] [https://www.dnainfo.com...]

And generally speaking, it probably does more harm than good by putting blacks under more scrutiny, making a de facto criminal class.
Hiu
Posts: 1,009
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9/26/2016 8:40:24 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 1:01:00 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Guess I won't be voting for him after all! For a minute I was actually considering it. I think with this statement he is trying to throw the election for Hillary, as was his intention in running from the beginning. Recently more minorities have been showing support for him, and he is obviously trying to push them in Hillary's direction.

LOL minorities don't support him. He was pictured in a black church and has the endorsement of the likes of idiots like Don King. He wants to appeal to the black voter but is doing horrible among black voters according to polls. I know latinos en masse do not support Trump either.
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,126
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9/26/2016 12:08:10 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

While I don't agree with the policy and stand by the 4th amendment, I don't feel it makes Trump HORRIBLE. I don't see why this is even an issue since he won't be managing police forces....I guess maybe largely inferred military intervention policy is what people are jumping to?

Anyone care to elaborate on this?
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
slo1
Posts: 4,351
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9/26/2016 1:40:25 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 12:08:10 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

While I don't agree with the policy and stand by the 4th amendment, I don't feel it makes Trump HORRIBLE. I don't see why this is even an issue since he won't be managing police forces....I guess maybe largely inferred military intervention policy is what people are jumping to?

Anyone care to elaborate on this?

The entire purpose of a job interview is to predict how well a candidate will perform.

When I instructed a candidate to tell me about a time she disagreed about a work place policy and what did she do about it she proceeded to tell me how she organized an uprising to institute casual Fridays.

While I really didn't care because we had casual Fridays, I didn't hire her because of her methods and approach to management. One could reasonably assume she would use similar approach to other disagreements.

Trump supporters clearly have a day of reckoning. He is clearly authoritarian, which to a degree attracts many of his supporters, but how much authoritarianism is too much?

The problem with authoritarianism that it will never be able to solve is that there is a very fine line between when its use is moral versus immoral (or insert any two words you prefer, right-wrong, protects liberty-oppresses)
kevin24018
Posts: 1,880
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9/26/2016 1:49:57 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 12:37:52 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:32:36 AM, Grizzly-Jones wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Replace 4th, with 2nd, and tell me if you care about it. If not, you shouldn't being using the constitution in your arguments.

I'm against violating both of them.

Why would I not support the 2nd amendment? I just support background checks on all gun sales. It should not be possible for me to sell my gun to a felon or a person ruled not fit to have a gun in TX without a background check.

That D-bag in WA who just shot up a mall was ruled by a court to not be eligible for a gun. I wonder how he got his.

eh, so why not a background check for cars, for people who have multiple dui's or suspended licence, since driving is not a right? Government should not have control over personal property like that, Virginia has a booth at a gun show were you could have the purchaser do a free background check (voluntary) but wasn't used much at all, but then again maybe there wasn't many personal sales, and as been stated so many times, criminals tend to get their guns illegally or steal them, even steal them from cops. Don't need a background check for a pressure cooker....yet.
slo1
Posts: 4,351
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9/26/2016 1:53:29 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 7:30:21 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Terry v. Ohio (1968) pretty much nullifies the 4th Amendment if the cop as 'reasonable suspicion'. https://en.wikipedia.org...

And even when there is no reasonable suspicion any evidence gather is admissible in Court if you have a warrant for an unrelated offense. http://www.npr.org...

The policy itself does not seem to effect crime either way. [http://www.theatlantic.com...] [https://www.dnainfo.com...]

And generally speaking, it probably does more harm than good by putting blacks under more scrutiny, making a de facto criminal class.

I'll just say it. When police are allowed to act upon subconscious bias, such as stop a black man with hoodie because he looks suspicious, it reinforces that bias. It is not that it probably does harm, it does real harm to society as a whole.
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/26/2016 2:05:31 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
Do some here really support or see no issue with walking down the street and being stopped just because...???
slo1
Posts: 4,351
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9/26/2016 2:18:08 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 1:49:57 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:37:52 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:32:36 AM, Grizzly-Jones wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Replace 4th, with 2nd, and tell me if you care about it. If not, you shouldn't being using the constitution in your arguments.

I'm against violating both of them.

Why would I not support the 2nd amendment? I just support background checks on all gun sales. It should not be possible for me to sell my gun to a felon or a person ruled not fit to have a gun in TX without a background check.

That D-bag in WA who just shot up a mall was ruled by a court to not be eligible for a gun. I wonder how he got his.

eh, so why not a background check for cars, for people who have multiple dui's or suspended licence, since driving is not a right? Government should not have control over personal property like that, Virginia has a booth at a gun show were you could have the purchaser do a free background check (voluntary) but wasn't used much at all, but then again maybe there wasn't many personal sales, and as been stated so many times, criminals tend to get their guns illegally or steal them, even steal them from cops. Don't need a background check for a pressure cooker....yet.

Known criminals who are barred from guns tend to get them from straw sales, meaning someone who can buy legally buys it for them. That of course is illegal if one knows the person they are giving the gun to is not legally able to own it, but who knows if one is not obligated to pull a background check.

To use your analog to automobiles, honestly I would very much prefer that model where a gun has a title and when it is sold the title is moved to the buyer. If someone does not move the title they can then be responsible for any liability. I would love to do that but I figured that would be much more intrusive to hard core 2nd amendment.

The simple fact of the matter is that the 2nd amendment is regulated. We can squabble all day on how it should be regulated, but it is not relevant to this thread.
kevin24018
Posts: 1,880
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9/26/2016 3:32:22 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 2:18:08 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:49:57 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:37:52 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:32:36 AM, Grizzly-Jones wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,

Replace 4th, with 2nd, and tell me if you care about it. If not, you shouldn't being using the constitution in your arguments.

I'm against violating both of them.

Why would I not support the 2nd amendment? I just support background checks on all gun sales. It should not be possible for me to sell my gun to a felon or a person ruled not fit to have a gun in TX without a background check.

That D-bag in WA who just shot up a mall was ruled by a court to not be eligible for a gun. I wonder how he got his.

eh, so why not a background check for cars, for people who have multiple dui's or suspended licence, since driving is not a right? Government should not have control over personal property like that, Virginia has a booth at a gun show were you could have the purchaser do a free background check (voluntary) but wasn't used much at all, but then again maybe there wasn't many personal sales, and as been stated so many times, criminals tend to get their guns illegally or steal them, even steal them from cops. Don't need a background check for a pressure cooker....yet.

Known criminals who are barred from guns tend to get them from straw sales, meaning someone who can buy legally buys it for them. That of course is illegal if one knows the person they are giving the gun to is not legally able to own it, but who knows if one is not obligated to pull a background check.

To use your analog to automobiles, honestly I would very much prefer that model where a gun has a title and when it is sold the title is moved to the buyer. If someone does not move the title they can then be responsible for any liability. I would love to do that but I figured that would be much more intrusive to hard core 2nd amendment.

The simple fact of the matter is that the 2nd amendment is regulated. We can squabble all day on how it should be regulated, but it is not relevant to this thread.

I would think straw sales are probably one of the justifications for stop and frisk, there's rarely a way to track it and the punishment is much too light.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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9/26/2016 3:41:12 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 2:05:31 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Do some here really support or see no issue with walking down the street and being stopped just because...???

Well, when you put it that way...

No. There are a good number of people who think whatever vision of "thug" they have in their brain constitutes loss of all rights. Its not that profiling is completely without merit, it is almost certain that a officer with experience can "spot" trouble, the question is, do we want to make a policy that encourages substituting fact with judgment.
kevin24018
Posts: 1,880
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9/26/2016 3:53:06 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 3:41:12 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/26/2016 2:05:31 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Do some here really support or see no issue with walking down the street and being stopped just because...???

Well, when you put it that way...


No. There are a good number of people who think whatever vision of "thug" they have in their brain constitutes loss of all rights. Its not that profiling is completely without merit, it is almost certain that a officer with experience can "spot" trouble, the question is, do we want to make a policy that encourages substituting fact with judgment.

exactly, in the experiment that was/is NYC it apparently did reduce crime, which would make sense, but probably not from the profiling alone, cops were probably more visible and attentive, rather than sitting in doughnut shops. They had this extra power to do something so they were going to use it, sort of untying their hands. Criminals were not going to be out on the street to risk being profiled and caught or just hassled. Though if you know what the profile is, just don't fit it, unless the only profile is being black, not everyone can pull a Michael Jackson.....
IM-True
Posts: 20
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9/26/2016 4:04:23 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, : ;

That's right. Searching someone for a gun is protected under the Constitution so they should just allow Americans to keep killing other Americans without worrying about it. Who cares about Americans, anyway.
kevin24018
Posts: 1,880
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9/26/2016 4:15:09 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 4:04:23 PM, IM-True wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, : ;

That's right. Searching someone for a gun is protected under the Constitution so they should just allow Americans to keep killing other Americans without worrying about it. Who cares about Americans, anyway.

it's not just guns numbnuts it's any weapons and drugs, bet the women of Europe wish they had guns now lol or anyway means to protect themselves. back under the bridge with yourself, troll
slo1
Posts: 4,351
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9/26/2016 4:17:25 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 4:04:23 PM, IM-True wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, : ;

That's right. Searching someone for a gun is protected under the Constitution so they should just allow Americans to keep killing other Americans without worrying about it. Who cares about Americans, anyway.

Ok. That is one viewpoint laced with anger.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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9/26/2016 4:17:44 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 4:15:09 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 4:04:23 PM, IM-True wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, : ;

That's right. Searching someone for a gun is protected under the Constitution so they should just allow Americans to keep killing other Americans without worrying about it. Who cares about Americans, anyway.

it's not just guns numbnuts it's any weapons and drugs, bet the women of Europe wish they had guns now lol or anyway means to protect themselves. back under the bridge with yourself, troll

How much money are you willing to place on that wager, and how do you propose to verify the result?
IM-True
Posts: 20
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9/26/2016 4:19:09 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 4:15:09 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 4:04:23 PM, IM-True wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:21:48 AM, slo1 wrote:
Stop and Frisk

Trump recently recommended stop and frisk in Chicago. Earlier in the month he recommends it in Philadelphia as a method for police to get illegal guns off the streets. See 1:15 to 2:15 in below interview.

http://www.debate.org...

Should people be stopped and searched for guns without probable cause? Why do his supporters not care about Donald seeminly ignoring the 4th amendment? Is this indication of tremendous amounts of authoritarianism to come from him should he be elected to President?

4th amendment
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, : ;

That's right. Searching someone for a gun is protected under the Constitution so they should just allow Americans to keep killing other Americans without worrying about it. Who cares about Americans, anyway.

it's not just guns numbnuts it's any weapons and drugs, bet the women of Europe wish they had guns now lol or anyway means to protect themselves. back under the bridge with yourself, troll : :

I'm serious you fool. They search for guns mainly but under the second amendment, American citizens have the right to bear arms. This means they have the right to kill themselves and others.