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Refusing Legitimacy of Election is Insanity

Raisor
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10/20/2016 3:01:45 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
Both parties are unequivocal about the soundness and fairness of the democratic process. GOP politicians are going out of their way to affirm the legitimacy of the election, including the GOP vice presidential candidate. Only Trump believes our democracy is being actively undermined to rig the election.

Our country is built on robust political systems, protected by norms of behavior and respect for the law. The strength of our country is undermined when politicians use their power to undermine those systems and norms for personal gains.

This is what a threat to the democratic process looks like. This is not gamesmanship. This is not politics as usual. This is insanity.
thett3
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10/20/2016 3:06:55 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
Time for a

C O U P
O
U
P

EMPEROR TRUMP CONFIRMED
DDO Vice President

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#UnbanTheMadman

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Stymie13
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10/20/2016 3:15:42 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
Over-reaction. If/when he loses he can botch and moan all he wants. If there is no smoke there will be no fire.
imabench
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10/20/2016 3:24:11 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:01:45 AM, Raisor wrote:
Both parties are unequivocal about the soundness and fairness of the democratic process. GOP politicians are going out of their way to affirm the legitimacy of the election, including the GOP vice presidential candidate. Only Trump believes our democracy is being actively undermined to rig the election.

Our country is built on robust political systems, protected by norms of behavior and respect for the law. The strength of our country is undermined when politicians use their power to undermine those systems and norms for personal gains.

This is what a threat to the democratic process looks like. This is not gamesmanship. This is not politics as usual. This is insanity.

If Trump loses by a hair, then claims of rigging will do considerable harm to the country. But if Trump gets his a** whipped like electoral predictions indicate he will, he wont be able to complain about alleged rigging since the final tally wont even be close. There would simply be too much evidence to indicate the election wasnt rigged due to how wide the margin of defeat was, and that instead Trump and his supporters are simply delusional retards.
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thett3
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10/20/2016 3:29:27 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
What nobody seems to understand is that American democracy is finished, and this process has been ongoing for a long time.

Decades of blatant corruption, corporatism, and disdain for the people tends to do that. There is a reason every single public institution except for the military is widely despised and distrusted.

At this point, if a military coup deposed the president there is virtually no chance that the American people would do a thing about it. Some would complain (and a surprising number would not), but nobody would get violent and fight. Because unlike the United States of the past this government, this system, is not worth fighting for. Unless that changes (newsflash: it won't), democracy is certain to die sooner or later.

If you don't want a Hitler, you shouldn't recreate Weimar Germany.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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10/20/2016 3:34:29 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
And add to everything I said the fact that the only people who would be willing and able to fight if it came to that, the deplorables, would not fight for Hillary Clinton or her ilk. This is what happens when you alienate the people who constitute the overwhelming majority of the military, the police force, and the gun owners.

Trump is not going to start a revolution to overturn the election results. But when, not if, our Putin or our Pinochet arrives he won't be resisted by the deplorables. That ship sank long ago. And only they would be able to stop him
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Agent_Orange
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10/20/2016 3:45:50 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:34:29 AM, thett3 wrote:
And add to everything I said the fact that the only people who would be willing and able to fight if it came to that, the deplorables, would not fight for Hillary Clinton or her ilk. This is what happens when you alienate the people who constitute the overwhelming majority of the military, the police force, and the gun owners.

Trump is not going to start a revolution to overturn the election results. But when, not if, our Putin or our Pinochet arrives he won't be resisted by the deplorables. That ship sank long ago. And only they would be able to stop him

Dude remember back in the day America was just the unparalleled badass? Now everyone is so damn afraid of Russia. Back in the 60s and the 80s we were like FUCK_RUSSIA now every red blooded American thinks Putin is the Boogeyman
#BlackLivesMatter
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,843
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10/20/2016 3:48:42 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:01:45 AM, Raisor wrote:
Both parties are unequivocal about the soundness and fairness of the democratic process. GOP politicians are going out of their way to affirm the legitimacy of the election, including the GOP vice presidential candidate. Only Trump believes our democracy is being actively undermined to rig the election.

Our country is built on robust political systems, protected by norms of behavior and respect for the law. The strength of our country is undermined when politicians use their power to undermine those systems and norms for personal gains.

This is what a threat to the democratic process looks like. This is not gamesmanship. This is not politics as usual. This is insanity.

The Absolute Madman.
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thett3
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10/20/2016 3:51:10 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:45:50 AM, Agent_Orange wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:34:29 AM, thett3 wrote:
And add to everything I said the fact that the only people who would be willing and able to fight if it came to that, the deplorables, would not fight for Hillary Clinton or her ilk. This is what happens when you alienate the people who constitute the overwhelming majority of the military, the police force, and the gun owners.

Trump is not going to start a revolution to overturn the election results. But when, not if, our Putin or our Pinochet arrives he won't be resisted by the deplorables. That ship sank long ago. And only they would be able to stop him

Dude remember back in the day America was just the unparalleled badass? Now everyone is so damn afraid of Russia. Back in the 60s and the 80s we were like FUCK_RUSSIA now every red blooded American thinks Putin is the Boogeyman

I just mean that eventually there will come an undemocratic strongman.

I know my tone is slightly political, but I truly believe this just from a historical and fatalist perspective. When trust in the legitimacy of the system vanishes, democracy doesn't stand much of a chance
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
ColeTrain
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10/20/2016 3:52:43 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:33:42 AM, Agent_Orange wrote:
Well it's not a true democracy anyway but yeah

Does anyone here actually think it is?
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Stymie13
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10/20/2016 4:00:59 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:52:43 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:33:42 AM, Agent_Orange wrote:
Well it's not a true democracy anyway but yeah

Does anyone here actually think it is?

He was alluding to us being a Republic vs true democracy.
ColeTrain
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10/20/2016 4:05:03 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 4:00:59 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:52:43 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:33:42 AM, Agent_Orange wrote:
Well it's not a true democracy anyway but yeah

Does anyone here actually think it is?

He was alluding to us being a Republic vs true democracy.

I know. I'm asking if anyone here really thinks it's a direct democracy.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
Stymie13
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10/20/2016 4:07:15 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 4:05:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 10/20/2016 4:00:59 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:52:43 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:33:42 AM, Agent_Orange wrote:
Well it's not a true democracy anyway but yeah

Does anyone here actually think it is?

He was alluding to us being a Republic vs true democracy.

I know. I'm asking if anyone here really thinks it's a direct democracy.

Gotcha. Didn't mean to patronize.
xus00HAY
Posts: 1,388
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10/20/2016 4:09:14 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
What Trump failed to do is say "well, If I don't win, that horrible woman will be president, therefore this is a situation where failure is not an option. So I just won't think about it"
ColeTrain
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10/20/2016 4:10:16 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 4:07:15 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 4:05:03 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 10/20/2016 4:00:59 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:52:43 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:33:42 AM, Agent_Orange wrote:
Well it's not a true democracy anyway but yeah

Does anyone here actually think it is?

He was alluding to us being a Republic vs true democracy.

I know. I'm asking if anyone here really thinks it's a direct democracy.


Gotcha. Didn't mean to patronize.

Haha, it's all good. :)
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
Raisor
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10/20/2016 12:43:55 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:15:42 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
Over-reaction. If/when he loses he can botch and moan all he wants. If there is no smoke there will be no fire.

It is not an over reaction. People like to pretend that the institutions of the US are somehow special and immune from the corrosive forces that have toppled democracies in the past. The only thing that keeps our democracy functioning is the good faith of individuals collectively maintaining our institutions. When individuals at the highest level of politics threaten the fundamental credibility of our democracy that is a threat to its continued existence. Do not forget that our country once fought a war with itself- the US is not immune from the forces of instability and it is arrogant folly to act cavalier in the face of a brazen attempt to delegitimize our democracy.
Raisor
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10/20/2016 12:45:48 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:15:42 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
Over-reaction. If/when he loses he can botch and moan all he wants. If there is no smoke there will be no fire.

In this very thread people are applauding Trump for heralding the collapse of our democracy. Don't make the mistake of thinking that your own levelheadedness is evidence that other people won't follow a pied piper.
Raisor
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10/20/2016 12:48:55 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 4:09:14 AM, xus00HAY wrote:
What Trump failed to do is say "well, If I don't win, that horrible woman will be president, therefore this is a situation where failure is not an option. So I just won't think about it"

What he said doesn't even resemble your attempted reconstruction. But at least if you are pretending he didn't say what he said it indicates you don't support what he said, which is honestly the most important thing.
Stymie13
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10/20/2016 1:17:24 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 12:45:48 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:15:42 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
Over-reaction. If/when he loses he can botch and moan all he wants. If there is no smoke there will be no fire.

In this very thread people are applauding Trump for heralding the collapse of our democracy. Don't make the mistake of thinking that your own levelheadedness is evidence that other people won't follow a pied piper.

Our institutions are fallible. Anything humans create is fallible. Trump just isn't the concern, specifically this elections results.

There is a growing resentment that people do dismiss that could reach a tipping point however. And it's focused at the top... yet people dismiss it as nativism and nationalism, haves vs have nots. Now the individual or movement that can connect disenfranchised middle class concerned about their job and kids,poor city dwellers (black, white, Latino) concerned about their job and kids, rural America concerned about their farm/land/job and kids... that's who needs to be noticed.

Notice 2 things:

1. All 3 of those groups are upset/disillusioned over the same thing
2. Trump only tapped into a small portion of any of those 3 groups

Just my 2 cents
Fernyx
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10/20/2016 1:17:52 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:01:45 AM, Raisor wrote:
Both parties are unequivocal about the soundness and fairness of the democratic process. GOP politicians are going out of their way to affirm the legitimacy of the election, including the GOP vice presidential candidate. Only Trump believes our democracy is being actively undermined to rig the election.

Our country is built on robust political systems, protected by norms of behavior and respect for the law. The strength of our country is undermined when politicians use their power to undermine those systems and norms for personal gains.

This is what a threat to the democratic process looks like. This is not gamesmanship. This is not politics as usual. This is insanity.

With veritas proving voter fraud it isn't that insane.
YYW
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10/20/2016 1:35:30 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:06:55 AM, thett3 wrote:
Time for a

C O U P
O
U
P

EMPEROR TRUMP CONFIRMED

I like you as a friend, dude, but that is not even funny. Trump sounds like Stalin before he came to power.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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10/20/2016 1:36:01 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:29:27 AM, thett3 wrote:
What nobody seems to understand is that American democracy is finished, and this process has been ongoing for a long time.

Decades of blatant corruption, corporatism, and disdain for the people tends to do that. There is a reason every single public institution except for the military is widely despised and distrusted.

At this point, if a military coup deposed the president there is virtually no chance that the American people would do a thing about it. Some would complain (and a surprising number would not), but nobody would get violent and fight. Because unlike the United States of the past this government, this system, is not worth fighting for. Unless that changes (newsflash: it won't), democracy is certain to die sooner or later.

If you don't want a Hitler, you shouldn't recreate Weimar Germany.

I'm going to respond to this later. Every single idea conveyed in this post is out of touch with reality.
Tsar of DDO
thett3
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10/20/2016 1:47:01 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 1:36:01 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:29:27 AM, thett3 wrote:
What nobody seems to understand is that American democracy is finished, and this process has been ongoing for a long time.

Decades of blatant corruption, corporatism, and disdain for the people tends to do that. There is a reason every single public institution except for the military is widely despised and distrusted.

At this point, if a military coup deposed the president there is virtually no chance that the American people would do a thing about it. Some would complain (and a surprising number would not), but nobody would get violent and fight. Because unlike the United States of the past this government, this system, is not worth fighting for. Unless that changes (newsflash: it won't), democracy is certain to die sooner or later.

If you don't want a Hitler, you shouldn't recreate Weimar Germany.

I'm going to respond to this later. Every single idea conveyed in this post is out of touch with reality.

You should, but I genuinely believe this. When there's no faith in the system nobody has anything invested in it, and certainly aren't willing to die for it.

What's happening to America is similar to what's happened to many societies in the past.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Raisor
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10/20/2016 3:01:17 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 1:36:01 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:29:27 AM, thett3 wrote:
What nobody seems to understand is that American democracy is finished, and this process has been ongoing for a long time.

Decades of blatant corruption, corporatism, and disdain for the people tends to do that. There is a reason every single public institution except for the military is widely despised and distrusted.

At this point, if a military coup deposed the president there is virtually no chance that the American people would do a thing about it. Some would complain (and a surprising number would not), but nobody would get violent and fight. Because unlike the United States of the past this government, this system, is not worth fighting for. Unless that changes (newsflash: it won't), democracy is certain to die sooner or later.

If you don't want a Hitler, you shouldn't recreate Weimar Germany.

I'm going to respond to this later. Every single idea conveyed in this post is out of touch with reality.

Wait- comparing the worlds strongest economy to pre-WW2 Germany isn't a strong foundation for political analysis?
Raisor
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10/20/2016 3:04:33 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 1:17:52 PM, Fernyx wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:01:45 AM, Raisor wrote:
Both parties are unequivocal about the soundness and fairness of the democratic process. GOP politicians are going out of their way to affirm the legitimacy of the election, including the GOP vice presidential candidate. Only Trump believes our democracy is being actively undermined to rig the election.

Our country is built on robust political systems, protected by norms of behavior and respect for the law. The strength of our country is undermined when politicians use their power to undermine those systems and norms for personal gains.

This is what a threat to the democratic process looks like. This is not gamesmanship. This is not politics as usual. This is insanity.

With veritas proving voter fraud it isn't that insane.

You have a very low bar for proof.

But even if that documentary is 100% true, it still wouldn't prove a rigged election. It would prove fraud around the margins, which to be sure is unacceptable, but the magnitude of fraud that would be required to have an impact on the election far exceeds what has been claimed even by fringe "journalism."

Even the GOP denies the claims of Trump.
Fernyx
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10/20/2016 4:50:15 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:04:33 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 10/20/2016 1:17:52 PM, Fernyx wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:01:45 AM, Raisor wrote:
Both parties are unequivocal about the soundness and fairness of the democratic process. GOP politicians are going out of their way to affirm the legitimacy of the election, including the GOP vice presidential candidate. Only Trump believes our democracy is being actively undermined to rig the election.

Our country is built on robust political systems, protected by norms of behavior and respect for the law. The strength of our country is undermined when politicians use their power to undermine those systems and norms for personal gains.

This is what a threat to the democratic process looks like. This is not gamesmanship. This is not politics as usual. This is insanity.

With veritas proving voter fraud it isn't that insane.

You have a very low bar for proof.

But even if that documentary is 100% true, it still wouldn't prove a rigged election. It would prove fraud around the margins, which to be sure is unacceptable, but the magnitude of fraud that would be required to have an impact on the election far exceeds what has been claimed even by fringe "journalism."

Even the GOP denies the claims of Trump.

I'm not saying the election is rigged, just saying it isn't that insane given the evidence.
dylancatlow
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10/20/2016 5:45:25 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
I can understand berating Trump for thinking there's widespread voter fraud, enough to actually tip the election, but why on earth should he be expected to make a pledge not to challenge the election results prior to the actual election? Making such a promise either implies that you are 100 percent sure there will be not be widespread voting fraud, which Trump isn't, or that you would be okay with letting Hillary be president without actually winning. Nothing Trump has said implies that he wouldn't accept the election results if he thought no fraud took place.
ShabShoral
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10/20/2016 5:48:19 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:29:27 AM, thett3 wrote:
What nobody seems to understand is that American democracy is finished, and this process has been ongoing for a long time.

Decades of blatant corruption, corporatism, and disdain for the people tends to do that. There is a reason every single public institution except for the military is widely despised and distrusted.

At this point, if a military coup deposed the president there is virtually no chance that the American people would do a thing about it. Some would complain (and a surprising number would not), but nobody would get violent and fight. Because unlike the United States of the past this government, this system, is not worth fighting for. Unless that changes (newsflash: it won't), democracy is certain to die sooner or later.

If you don't want a Hitler, you shouldn't recreate Weimar Germany.

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thett3
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10/20/2016 5:57:08 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:01:17 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 10/20/2016 1:36:01 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:29:27 AM, thett3 wrote:
What nobody seems to understand is that American democracy is finished, and this process has been ongoing for a long time.

Decades of blatant corruption, corporatism, and disdain for the people tends to do that. There is a reason every single public institution except for the military is widely despised and distrusted.

At this point, if a military coup deposed the president there is virtually no chance that the American people would do a thing about it. Some would complain (and a surprising number would not), but nobody would get violent and fight. Because unlike the United States of the past this government, this system, is not worth fighting for. Unless that changes (newsflash: it won't), democracy is certain to die sooner or later.

If you don't want a Hitler, you shouldn't recreate Weimar Germany.

I'm going to respond to this later. Every single idea conveyed in this post is out of touch with reality.

Wait- comparing the worlds strongest economy to pre-WW2 Germany isn't a strong foundation for political analysis?

"Hahahaha this quip at the end of your post isn't 100% historically accurate checkmate rethuglicans" -every snarky liberal

I look forward to YYW's response because he will probably bring an actual argument to the table.

My argument: When the system is widely distrusted and despised you leave an opening for a strongman that is going to be filled sooner or later. Like you said, the system relies upon a mutual acceptance of the law and the process--but that legitimacy has been undermined through a variety of factors. Clinton, who calls tens of millions of voters irredeemable and deplorable, is not going to help restore legitimacy.

The loss of the systems legitimacy has historically been followed by a transition in government which is what I expect to happen and is why I think American democracy is dead sooner or later.

Snarky liberal argument: "wow just wow, it's 2016 not Weimar Germany"
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#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right