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Debate: 2nd amend and abortion

Stymie13
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10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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10/20/2016 3:49:17 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...

212 abortions for every 1000 live births. Correction
xus00HAY
Posts: 1,390
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10/20/2016 4:00:01 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
Rather than try to answer the abortion question, Trump should have said it doesn't really matter because there is an abortion pill, and if abortion is re-criminalized, without the wall the cartels will start making abortion pills and everybody in America will be able to get one.

On the 2nd amendment he should have began his answer with " well if there was an American with a carry permit and his weapon on those hijacked airplanes 9 11 Would have never happened."
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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10/20/2016 4:04:48 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...
Most gun deaths are suicide. http://www.nytimes.com...

I don't think she was insinuating that most gun deaths were homicides, I got the vibe she was insinuating accidental deaths because the guns weren't locked up. Anyway thanks for providing the statistics for murders and link.

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.
No the link says there were 210 abortions for every 1000 live births. I know the statistics are alarming, but at least they are decreasing from the 90's. When I was in my 20's I was the only one of my friends that hadn't ever had an abortion. My decision to have my kids was very unpopular with my friends who were hot gold diggers.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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10/20/2016 4:06:22 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 4:00:01 AM, xus00HAY wrote:
Rather than try to answer the abortion question, Trump should have said it doesn't really matter because there is an abortion pill, and if abortion is re-criminalized, without the wall the cartels will start making abortion pills and everybody in America will be able to get one.

On the 2nd amendment he should have began his answer with " well if there was an American with a carry permit and his weapon on those hijacked airplanes 9 11 Would have never happened."

I'm not advocating or care for either candidate. I'm correcting a stat that one claimed erroneously (gun deaths don't = murder. Suicides are 2 to 1 over murder). I just happened to look up abortions per year out of curiousity. That number dumbfounded me.
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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10/20/2016 4:12:39 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 4:04:48 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...
Most gun deaths are suicide. http://www.nytimes.com...

I don't think she was insinuating that most gun deaths were homicides, I got the vibe she was insinuating accidental deaths because the guns weren't locked up. Anyway thanks for providing the statistics for murders and link.

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.
No the link says there were 210 abortions for every 1000 live births. I know the statistics are alarming, but at least they are decreasing from the 90's. When I was in my 20's I was the only one of my friends that hadn't ever had an abortion. My decision to have my kids was very unpopular with my friends who were hot gold diggers.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...

I already corrected the abortion in post 2. 210 per 1000 live births.

She mentioned 'accidental 5 minutes after posting that figure. It was clearly to influence those who advocate 'common sense' regulation. Sorry. I don't compromise on ANY 'common sense' regulationof amendment 1-10. And I sold my guns 2 years ago.
xus00HAY
Posts: 1,390
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10/20/2016 4:16:19 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
When you consider the world that baby will have to live in, 212 abortions for every live birth seems about right.
Then again, the CDC head quarters is not in Washington, it's in Atlanta Georgia, so you have to expect there will be a mistake in the arithmetic every now and then.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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10/20/2016 4:22:13 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 4:12:39 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 4:04:48 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...
Most gun deaths are suicide. http://www.nytimes.com...

I don't think she was insinuating that most gun deaths were homicides, I got the vibe she was insinuating accidental deaths because the guns weren't locked up. Anyway thanks for providing the statistics for murders and link.

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.
No the link says there were 210 abortions for every 1000 live births. I know the statistics are alarming, but at least they are decreasing from the 90's. When I was in my 20's I was the only one of my friends that hadn't ever had an abortion. My decision to have my kids was very unpopular with my friends who were hot gold diggers.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...

I already corrected the abortion in post 2. 210 per 1000 live births.

She mentioned 'accidental 5 minutes after posting that figure. It was clearly to influence those who advocate 'common sense' regulation. Sorry. I don't compromise on ANY 'common sense' regulationof amendment 1-10. And I sold my guns 2 years ago.
I'm pro second amendment, and I don't support Hillary, but I never got the vibe she was talking about murders when she said 33k people die from firearms. After looking into it, it's obvious suicide from firearms is a problem. I know a way they could solve it without obstructing any 2nd amendment rights.... If they legalized pot, I bet less people would off themselves.... just a thought.
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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10/20/2016 4:38:30 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 4:22:13 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 10/20/2016 4:12:39 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 4:04:48 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...
Most gun deaths are suicide. http://www.nytimes.com...

I don't think she was insinuating that most gun deaths were homicides, I got the vibe she was insinuating accidental deaths because the guns weren't locked up. Anyway thanks for providing the statistics for murders and link.

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.
No the link says there were 210 abortions for every 1000 live births. I know the statistics are alarming, but at least they are decreasing from the 90's. When I was in my 20's I was the only one of my friends that hadn't ever had an abortion. My decision to have my kids was very unpopular with my friends who were hot gold diggers.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...

I already corrected the abortion in post 2. 210 per 1000 live births.

She mentioned 'accidental 5 minutes after posting that figure. It was clearly to influence those who advocate 'common sense' regulation. Sorry. I don't compromise on ANY 'common sense' regulationof amendment 1-10. And I sold my guns 2 years ago.
I'm pro second amendment, and I don't support Hillary, but I never got the vibe she was talking about murders when she said 33k people die from firearms. After looking into it, it's obvious suicide from firearms is a problem. I know a way they could solve it without obstructing any 2nd amendment rights.... If they legalized pot, I bet less people would off themselves.... just a thought.

Right. I was insinuating you were any specific position on 2A. I know she is for 'common sense' gun regulation that always starts with a first step. Those like her always obfuscate with numbers. The fact is firearm violence has dropped, year over year, since the insidious and misnamed 'assault weapon' ban expired

For that matter Trump once lent support to it.

Suicide is terrible, especially for those left behind. One can make the correlation that firearms make suicide easier but it is not causal.

As I was typing this, if it is acceptable to terminate life medically via abortion, legalize medically assisted suicide. That totally removes guns from the argument.

And I'm for legalizing all drugs as the drug war has been our costliest and largest infringement on privacy and liberties. That also is one of, if not the, single biggest contributor the the whole #...lives matter issue.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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10/20/2016 5:04:22 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 4:38:30 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 4:22:13 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 10/20/2016 4:12:39 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 4:04:48 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...
Most gun deaths are suicide. http://www.nytimes.com...

I don't think she was insinuating that most gun deaths were homicides, I got the vibe she was insinuating accidental deaths because the guns weren't locked up. Anyway thanks for providing the statistics for murders and link.

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.
No the link says there were 210 abortions for every 1000 live births. I know the statistics are alarming, but at least they are decreasing from the 90's. When I was in my 20's I was the only one of my friends that hadn't ever had an abortion. My decision to have my kids was very unpopular with my friends who were hot gold diggers.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...

I already corrected the abortion in post 2. 210 per 1000 live births.

She mentioned 'accidental 5 minutes after posting that figure. It was clearly to influence those who advocate 'common sense' regulation. Sorry. I don't compromise on ANY 'common sense' regulationof amendment 1-10. And I sold my guns 2 years ago.
I'm pro second amendment, and I don't support Hillary, but I never got the vibe she was talking about murders when she said 33k people die from firearms. After looking into it, it's obvious suicide from firearms is a problem. I know a way they could solve it without obstructing any 2nd amendment rights.... If they legalized pot, I bet less people would off themselves.... just a thought.

Right. I was insinuating you were any specific position on 2A. I know she is for 'common sense' gun regulation that always starts with a first step. Those like her always obfuscate with numbers. The fact is firearm violence has dropped, year over year, since the insidious and misnamed 'assault weapon' ban expired

For that matter Trump once lent support to it.

Suicide is terrible, especially for those left behind. One can make the correlation that firearms make suicide easier but it is not causal.

As I was typing this, if it is acceptable to terminate life medically via abortion, legalize medically assisted suicide. That totally removes guns from the argument.

I was looking more into the whole abortion statistics.. Maybe the number went down because there is an abortion pill that is now available. I'm not sure if that pill is included in abortion statistics or not. It is alarming that there are over 1/2 million abortions every year. I did agree with Trump that abortions shouldn't be permitted in the last trimester. Why not deliver the baby c section, if the pregnancy is endangering the mother's life? Why abort the pregnancy if the baby can survive outside the womb? I don't know why he didn't specifically mention that.

And I'm for legalizing all drugs as the drug war has been our costliest and largest infringement on privacy and liberties. That also is one of, if not the, single biggest contributor the the whole #...lives matter issue.
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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10/20/2016 5:12:27 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 5:04:22 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 10/20/2016 4:38:30 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 4:22:13 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 10/20/2016 4:12:39 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 4:04:48 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...
Most gun deaths are suicide. http://www.nytimes.com...

I don't think she was insinuating that most gun deaths were homicides, I got the vibe she was insinuating accidental deaths because the guns weren't locked up. Anyway thanks for providing the statistics for murders and link.

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.
No the link says there were 210 abortions for every 1000 live births. I know the statistics are alarming, but at least they are decreasing from the 90's. When I was in my 20's I was the only one of my friends that hadn't ever had an abortion. My decision to have my kids was very unpopular with my friends who were hot gold diggers.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...

I already corrected the abortion in post 2. 210 per 1000 live births.

She mentioned 'accidental 5 minutes after posting that figure. It was clearly to influence those who advocate 'common sense' regulation. Sorry. I don't compromise on ANY 'common sense' regulationof amendment 1-10. And I sold my guns 2 years ago.
I'm pro second amendment, and I don't support Hillary, but I never got the vibe she was talking about murders when she said 33k people die from firearms. After looking into it, it's obvious suicide from firearms is a problem. I know a way they could solve it without obstructing any 2nd amendment rights.... If they legalized pot, I bet less people would off themselves.... just a thought.

Right. I was insinuating you were any specific position on 2A. I know she is for 'common sense' gun regulation that always starts with a first step. Those like her always obfuscate with numbers. The fact is firearm violence has dropped, year over year, since the insidious and misnamed 'assault weapon' ban expired

For that matter Trump once lent support to it.

Suicide is terrible, especially for those left behind. One can make the correlation that firearms make suicide easier but it is not causal.

As I was typing this, if it is acceptable to terminate life medically via abortion, legalize medically assisted suicide. That totally removes guns from the argument.

I was looking more into the whole abortion statistics.. Maybe the number went down because there is an abortion pill that is now available. I'm not sure if that pill is included in abortion statistics or not. It is alarming that there are over 1/2 million abortions every year. I did agree with Trump that abortions shouldn't be permitted in the last trimester. Why not deliver the baby c section, if the pregnancy is endangering the mother's life? Why abort the pregnancy if the baby can survive outside the womb? I don't know why he didn't specifically mention that.

And I'm for legalizing all drugs as the drug war has been our costliest and largest infringement on privacy and liberties. That also is one of, if not the, single biggest contributor the the whole #...lives matter issue.

Again, I'm pro choice but dam those numbers are staggering. If you asked me yesterday o would have guessed under 100k. But Jesus...
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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10/20/2016 5:34:01 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...

Factor in suicide by gun and she's right. 21K in 2014 [http://www.cdc.gov...] add the average of 12k murders as your stat says.

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam!

In 2010 there were roughly 40 million women aged 20-29 (I assume this is the most likely age group to get an abortion). If we guess there were 700,000 abortions that year what percentage of women of that age group got an abortion?

12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.

Ummm no its says "210 abortions per 1,000 live births" not 212 for every live birth. [2012 data from your source]

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,285
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10/20/2016 5:45:19 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...

Yeah, the numbers on abortion and gun deaths are both staggering. Probably the most eye-opening for me was looking at the break-down of gun deaths, and less than 0.1%, if I recall, are due to mass shootings. All we talk about are gun control regulations meant to counter mass shootings, when suicides account for more than half of gun deaths, and the vast majority of the rest involve handguns, many in the inner cities. Those numbers really made me notice that the media is blowing one of those stats waaaaay out of proportion, because it effects the only people who 'matter' to the establishment: upper-crust whites. The sad matter is that working class whites blowing their own brains out, and minorities blowing one another's brains out, has become such an acceptable part of the status quo that the media pretty much ignores it. But on the astoundingly rare occasion that someone shoots up a school? Wait a minute, people like us aren't supposed to be gunned down.

And if you really want a chill to go down your spine, look at the racial breakdown of abortions, especially per capita. Black women abort almost five times as often as whites. That means by your numbers, there's almost a 1:1 rate for pregnancies terminated and carried to term among blacks.

The Malthusian arguments at least sound well-meaning, but when the same people who offer a full-throated defense of that turn around and say that we need more immigration because our population isn't growing fast enough, I just have to shake my head in disbelief.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
augcaesarustus
Posts: 368
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10/20/2016 5:54:24 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...

Isn't it funny that no other advance country on the earth has to have firearms to protect themselves, other than the United States? And don't say 'because we protect Europe'. Protecting Europe has no correlation with high murder rates in the United States.
Genius_Intellect
Posts: 339
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10/20/2016 6:04:12 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
Has anybody considered making gun ownership mandatory? That seems a logical extension of the "if one of the innocents had a gun" argument.

- Shooting lessons part of high school curriculum.
- You get a gun when you graduate.
- You can be fined for not carrying your gun.

I think the NRA just came in their pants.
U.n
Posts: 214
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10/20/2016 11:42:46 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 6:04:12 AM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
Has anybody considered making gun ownership mandatory? That seems a logical extension of the "if one of the innocents had a gun" argument.

- Shooting lessons part of high school curriculum.
- You get a gun when you graduate.
- You can be fined for not carrying your gun.

I think the NRA just came in their pants.

There are a small handful of US cities which mandate gun ownership, such as Kennesaw, GA.
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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10/20/2016 11:50:28 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 5:34:01 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...

Factor in suicide by gun and she's right. 21K in 2014 [http://www.cdc.gov...] add the average of 12k murders as your stat says.

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam!

In 2010 there were roughly 40 million women aged 20-29 (I assume this is the most likely age group to get an abortion). If we guess there were 700,000 abortions that year what percentage of women of that age group got an abortion?

12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.

Ummm no its says "210 abortions per 1,000 live births" not 212 for every live birth. [2012 data from your source]

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...

Typo corrected in post 2.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,285
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10/20/2016 2:40:36 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 6:04:12 AM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
Has anybody considered making gun ownership mandatory? That seems a logical extension of the "if one of the innocents had a gun" argument.

- Shooting lessons part of high school curriculum.
- You get a gun when you graduate.
- You can be fined for not carrying your gun.

I think the NRA just came in their pants.

Switzerland basically does this, minus the last part. Every suitable male is a member of the militia, receives basic training, and has a military-grade firearm in the house. The government also subsidizes further arms training and controls both ammunition sales and the public carrying of the weapon. It's a pretty great system, overall.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/20/2016 3:05:14 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...

Couple quick points. The 33k number is fine. She talked directly to suicide, including it in the number. I have no issue with her combining the two as a issue within guns.

The abortion number is what it is. What should be the takeaway is, this number points why it is a VERY hot topic with women, and why women will switch a vote based on this position alone.

Abortion (even for pro-choice women) is a very normal part of life. Women are not in the habit of abusing this anymore than they are in the habit of abusing appendectomy surgery.
slo1
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10/20/2016 3:18:53 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 4:12:39 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 4:04:48 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...
Most gun deaths are suicide. http://www.nytimes.com...

I don't think she was insinuating that most gun deaths were homicides, I got the vibe she was insinuating accidental deaths because the guns weren't locked up. Anyway thanks for providing the statistics for murders and link.

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.
No the link says there were 210 abortions for every 1000 live births. I know the statistics are alarming, but at least they are decreasing from the 90's. When I was in my 20's I was the only one of my friends that hadn't ever had an abortion. My decision to have my kids was very unpopular with my friends who were hot gold diggers.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...

I already corrected the abortion in post 2. 210 per 1000 live births.

She mentioned 'accidental 5 minutes after posting that figure. It was clearly to influence those who advocate 'common sense' regulation. Sorry. I don't compromise on ANY 'common sense' regulationof amendment 1-10. And I sold my guns 2 years ago.

If you don't support closing private sale background check loop holes, why not just eliminate all background checks?

Seems like a waste of money when I can sell my guns to anyone in TX no questions asked, yet Cabela's has to perform checks.
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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10/20/2016 3:19:28 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:05:14 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...

Couple quick points. The 33k number is fine. She talked directly to suicide, including it in the number. I have no issue with her combining the two as a issue within guns.

The abortion number is what it is. What should be the takeaway is, this number points why it is a VERY hot topic with women, and why women will switch a vote based on this position alone.

Abortion (even for pro-choice women) is a very normal part of life. Women are not in the habit of abusing this anymore than they are in the habit of abusing appendectomy surgery.

I'm not commenting on the morality of abortion. I'm just dumbstruck at the sheer amount. 1 abortion for every 5 births. Never would I guess that.

The guns and suicide is a canard. I addressed that with Emmarie. It's the obfuscation of numbers that's disengenuous. On the suicide topic, I find no issue with medically assisted suicide. Rationale is irrelevant. And I'm not being flippant. Same principle to abortion applies. A person's body, a person's choice. I understand that will stir up a hornets nest but there are people who wish to die for a variety of reasons: mental illness, Shame, physical discomfort, apathy... we aren't supposed to pass judgement on why a women wants to terminate a life, why should we pass judgement on terminating any life (medically induced, not murder, and apply waiting periods, whatever, for consideration).
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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10/20/2016 3:23:52 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:18:53 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 4:12:39 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 4:04:48 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...
Most gun deaths are suicide. http://www.nytimes.com...

I don't think she was insinuating that most gun deaths were homicides, I got the vibe she was insinuating accidental deaths because the guns weren't locked up. Anyway thanks for providing the statistics for murders and link.

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.
No the link says there were 210 abortions for every 1000 live births. I know the statistics are alarming, but at least they are decreasing from the 90's. When I was in my 20's I was the only one of my friends that hadn't ever had an abortion. My decision to have my kids was very unpopular with my friends who were hot gold diggers.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...

I already corrected the abortion in post 2. 210 per 1000 live births.

She mentioned 'accidental 5 minutes after posting that figure. It was clearly to influence those who advocate 'common sense' regulation. Sorry. I don't compromise on ANY 'common sense' regulationof amendment 1-10. And I sold my guns 2 years ago.

If you don't support closing private sale background check loop holes, why not just eliminate all background checks?

Seems like a waste of money when I can sell my guns to anyone in TX no questions asked, yet Cabela's has to perform checks.

Same with person to person. I understand why companies do it: third party liability. Now the atf form 4473 being forced on them? Not a fan.
xus00HAY
Posts: 1,390
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10/20/2016 4:03:10 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
"Switzerland basically does this, minus the last part. Every suitable male is a member of the militia, receives basic training, and has a military-grade firearm in the house. "

If every man there has a gun, there must be so many more murders per-capita than there are in America. What's the statistics on that Skippy?
slo1
Posts: 4,351
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10/20/2016 5:01:32 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 2:40:36 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 10/20/2016 6:04:12 AM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
Has anybody considered making gun ownership mandatory? That seems a logical extension of the "if one of the innocents had a gun" argument.

- Shooting lessons part of high school curriculum.
- You get a gun when you graduate.
- You can be fined for not carrying your gun.

I think the NRA just came in their pants.

Switzerland basically does this, minus the last part. Every suitable male is a member of the militia, receives basic training, and has a military-grade firearm in the house. The government also subsidizes further arms training and controls both ammunition sales and the public carrying of the weapon. It's a pretty great system, overall.

NRA would shat their pants if Hillary mandated the Fed control ammo sales. IE: can buy at range to shoot weapon, but can't bring any home.

Switzerland greatly reduced domestic gun violence when they stopped allowing militia to have ammo at home with the weapon. They also have to turn the weapon in after their militia service or go through extensive licensing process to keep it.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/20/2016 5:42:55 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 3:19:28 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:05:14 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...

Couple quick points. The 33k number is fine. She talked directly to suicide, including it in the number. I have no issue with her combining the two as a issue within guns.

The abortion number is what it is. What should be the takeaway is, this number points why it is a VERY hot topic with women, and why women will switch a vote based on this position alone.

Abortion (even for pro-choice women) is a very normal part of life. Women are not in the habit of abusing this anymore than they are in the habit of abusing appendectomy surgery.

I'm not commenting on the morality of abortion. I'm just dumbstruck at the sheer amount. 1 abortion for every 5 births. Never would I guess that.
OK, well, lets break it down just a bit. Of the total number of abortions, somewhere in the neighborhood of 5% are medically necessary. An additional ~5% of the remanding 95% the women said they were concerned for their health, or the health of the fetus while not being classified as necessity. The remaining are choice.

Does that make it more or less palatable? I don't know. That is up to you to decide.


The guns and suicide is a canard. I addressed that with Emmarie. It's the obfuscation of numbers that's disengenuous. On the suicide topic, I find no issue with medically assisted suicide. Rationale is irrelevant. And I'm not being flippant. Same principle to abortion applies. A person's body, a person's choice. I understand that will stir up a hornets nest but there are people who wish to die for a variety of reasons: mental illness, Shame, physical discomfort, apathy... we aren't supposed to pass judgement on why a women wants to terminate a life, why should we pass judgement on terminating any life (medically induced, not murder, and apply waiting periods, whatever, for consideration).

I can and do agree with most of what you just said. Here is the thing. Suicide by gun is the most successful method. Others don't come close. So. If you want to address suicide rates, looking at guns is perfectly valid.

I do support a right to die with dignity. I further have some respect for allowing everyone to choose whatever they want to do with their body that has little to no effect on others. However, I see no problem with working to reduce mental health related suicide just like working to reduce deaths from heart disease.
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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10/20/2016 5:54:47 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 5:42:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:19:28 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:05:14 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...

Couple quick points. The 33k number is fine. She talked directly to suicide, including it in the number. I have no issue with her combining the two as a issue within guns.

The abortion number is what it is. What should be the takeaway is, this number points why it is a VERY hot topic with women, and why women will switch a vote based on this position alone.

Abortion (even for pro-choice women) is a very normal part of life. Women are not in the habit of abusing this anymore than they are in the habit of abusing appendectomy surgery.

I'm not commenting on the morality of abortion. I'm just dumbstruck at the sheer amount. 1 abortion for every 5 births. Never would I guess that.
OK, well, lets break it down just a bit. Of the total number of abortions, somewhere in the neighborhood of 5% are medically necessary. An additional ~5% of the remanding 95% the women said they were concerned for their health, or the health of the fetus while not being classified as necessity. The remaining are choice.

Does that make it more or less palatable? I don't know. That is up to you to decide.




The guns and suicide is a canard. I addressed that with Emmarie. It's the obfuscation of numbers that's disengenuous. On the suicide topic, I find no issue with medically assisted suicide. Rationale is irrelevant. And I'm not being flippant. Same principle to abortion applies. A person's body, a person's choice. I understand that will stir up a hornets nest but there are people who wish to die for a variety of reasons: mental illness, Shame, physical discomfort, apathy... we aren't supposed to pass judgement on why a women wants to terminate a life, why should we pass judgement on terminating any life (medically induced, not murder, and apply waiting periods, whatever, for consideration).

I can and do agree with most of what you just said. Here is the thing. Suicide by gun is the most successful method. Others don't come close. So. If you want to address suicide rates, looking at guns is perfectly valid.

I do support a right to die with dignity. I further have some respect for allowing everyone to choose whatever they want to do with their body that has little to no effect on others. However, I see no problem with working to reduce mental health related suicide just like working to reduce deaths from heart disease.

On abortion, it's not about being palatable or not. I had no idea it was that high. Take an issue one doesn't really care about but is really important to others. Then out of curiousity that individual looks up stats and is surprised by the sheer number of whatever that issue is. That was me. Never looked at the numbers before.

Yes guns are the most effective form of suicide.
Yes suicides double the number of homicides by guns year over year.
Yes gun control advocates often combine the numbers to influence people guns are the issue
Yes mental health is a huge issue
Yes I am for medically assisted suicide
Yes I personally don't care what rationale a person uses for medically assisted suicide

Who am I to judge what one does with their body no matter the wreckage left behind for the survivors? Just as who am I to judge what a woman does with their body. I'm just taking the same principle and expanding it.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,285
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10/20/2016 7:13:35 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 5:01:32 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 2:40:36 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 10/20/2016 6:04:12 AM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
Has anybody considered making gun ownership mandatory? That seems a logical extension of the "if one of the innocents had a gun" argument.

- Shooting lessons part of high school curriculum.
- You get a gun when you graduate.
- You can be fined for not carrying your gun.

I think the NRA just came in their pants.

Switzerland basically does this, minus the last part. Every suitable male is a member of the militia, receives basic training, and has a military-grade firearm in the house. The government also subsidizes further arms training and controls both ammunition sales and the public carrying of the weapon. It's a pretty great system, overall.

NRA would shat their pants if Hillary mandated the Fed control ammo sales. IE: can buy at range to shoot weapon, but can't bring any home.

Swiss people can bring ammo home, they just can't carry a loaded gun in public unless they have a difficult to obtain license. I think Switzerland would be heaven to the NRA; gun culture is huge there, especially recreational use, which moves ammo, and which is directly subsidized by the government. You're thinking of the government-subsidized ammo, which must be used at the range. For private citizens, the only restrictions on what they can buy are on things like incendiary, poison, and armor-piercing ammunitions, which are also illegal in the US.

Switzerland greatly reduced domestic gun violence when they stopped allowing militia to have ammo at home with the weapon.

They never stopped that, they just stopped providing ammo directly through the government. And that's just flat-out wrong as well.

Gun homicides:
2014: 7
2013: 18
2012: 13
2011: 22
2010: 15
2009: 24
2008: 16
2007: 15 -This is where the ammo law was passed.
2006: 14
2005: 23
2004: 25
2003: 20
2002: 31
2001: 40
2000: 17
1999: 32
1998: 27
1997: 60
1996: 41
1995: 27

With those numbers, the idea that the ammo law going into effect stopped gun violence seems extremely dubious.

http://www.gunpolicy.org...

None of the stats seem to really jump down at that point.

They also have to turn the weapon in after their militia service or go through extensive licensing process to keep it.

It's not that extensive, you just have to have a clean criminal record, and it doesn't even apply to all weapons.

IMO, the best lesson that can be taken from Switzerland is that people shouldn't be able to carry a loaded gun in public places unless they're a hunter.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/20/2016 8:52:54 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/20/2016 5:54:47 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 5:42:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:19:28 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:05:14 PM, TBR wrote:
At 10/20/2016 3:47:40 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
This was the only part I found interesting and had to look up.

First Hilary completely insinuated gun deaths = murder with the 33k number. Sorry but that's not even in the mall park. Fbi numbers, not a blog. 2013 (2014 is actually lower):

https://ucr.fbi.gov...

But what really made my draw drop was abortion. Again, CDC numbers. All practitioners and facilities send their codes to CMS for a variety of reasons and then the data is shared with other agencies. In 2014, 690k abortions! Are you fvcking kidding me! I'm for choice but believe there's better options but dam! 12.5 women per 1000 and 212 abortions for every live birth.

Jesus Christ! (Just scroll down a tad if you don't want to look at raw data).

http://www.cdc.gov...

Couple quick points. The 33k number is fine. She talked directly to suicide, including it in the number. I have no issue with her combining the two as a issue within guns.

The abortion number is what it is. What should be the takeaway is, this number points why it is a VERY hot topic with women, and why women will switch a vote based on this position alone.

Abortion (even for pro-choice women) is a very normal part of life. Women are not in the habit of abusing this anymore than they are in the habit of abusing appendectomy surgery.

I'm not commenting on the morality of abortion. I'm just dumbstruck at the sheer amount. 1 abortion for every 5 births. Never would I guess that.
OK, well, lets break it down just a bit. Of the total number of abortions, somewhere in the neighborhood of 5% are medically necessary. An additional ~5% of the remanding 95% the women said they were concerned for their health, or the health of the fetus while not being classified as necessity. The remaining are choice.

Does that make it more or less palatable? I don't know. That is up to you to decide.




The guns and suicide is a canard. I addressed that with Emmarie. It's the obfuscation of numbers that's disengenuous. On the suicide topic, I find no issue with medically assisted suicide. Rationale is irrelevant. And I'm not being flippant. Same principle to abortion applies. A person's body, a person's choice. I understand that will stir up a hornets nest but there are people who wish to die for a variety of reasons: mental illness, Shame, physical discomfort, apathy... we aren't supposed to pass judgement on why a women wants to terminate a life, why should we pass judgement on terminating any life (medically induced, not murder, and apply waiting periods, whatever, for consideration).

I can and do agree with most of what you just said. Here is the thing. Suicide by gun is the most successful method. Others don't come close. So. If you want to address suicide rates, looking at guns is perfectly valid.

I do support a right to die with dignity. I further have some respect for allowing everyone to choose whatever they want to do with their body that has little to no effect on others. However, I see no problem with working to reduce mental health related suicide just like working to reduce deaths from heart disease.

On abortion, it's not about being palatable or not. I had no idea it was that high. Take an issue one doesn't really care about but is really important to others. Then out of curiousity that individual looks up stats and is surprised by the sheer number of whatever that issue is. That was me. Never looked at the numbers before.
Yea, I get it. I know that is where you are coming from.


Yes guns are the most effective form of suicide.
Yes suicides double the number of homicides by guns year over year.
Yes gun control advocates often combine the numbers to influence people guns are the issue
Yes mental health is a huge issue
Yes I am for medically assisted suicide
Yes I personally don't care what rationale a person uses for medically assisted suicide

Who am I to judge what one does with their body no matter the wreckage left behind for the survivors? Just as who am I to judge what a woman does with their body. I'm just taking the same principle and expanding it.
Agreed. Now, if people of good nature want to help reduce suicide, looking at guns is a totally valid concern. Conflating the numbers without being clear (Clinton was clear) would be disingenuous. Guns DO cause huge issues in our society, that is hard to dismiss, but the question of what level can or should we be comfortable with is open for discussion.