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Policy Discussion: Trump v. Clinton

SolonKR
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11/2/2016 12:12:10 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
There have been many, many October surprises, from the sexual assault allegations against Trump to the Comey letter to new revelations about Trump's legally dubious exploitation of the tax code to who knows what else will come out in the next seven days.

It's easy to lose sight of what this election really is. It is not a popularity contest, or a discussion of who the better person is. The election is the determination by millions about who they think will make their lives better. To that end, I present to you all a comprehensive (leftist) review of Trump's policies as opposed to Clinton's. I encourage those with dissenting views to speak up: https://docs.google.com...
(edited from my posts at http://www.debate.org...)

With a week left to go, this is the most important time to think carefully about how a President Trump or President Clinton (or if there's a hilarious polling error, a possible President McMullin) will impact your lives.
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
SolonKR
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11/2/2016 12:16:52 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
The analysis here is superficial at times, because the breadth of the subject matter required me to sacrifice a good deal of depth. But hey, I'm hoping that will bait some of you into actual discussion about the candidates' policies. :3
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
slo1
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11/2/2016 2:03:38 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/2/2016 12:12:10 AM, SolonKR wrote:
There have been many, many October surprises, from the sexual assault allegations against Trump to the Comey letter to new revelations about Trump's legally dubious exploitation of the tax code to who knows what else will come out in the next seven days.

It's easy to lose sight of what this election really is. It is not a popularity contest, or a discussion of who the better person is. The election is the determination by millions about who they think will make their lives better. To that end, I present to you all a comprehensive (leftist) review of Trump's policies as opposed to Clinton's. I encourage those with dissenting views to speak up: https://docs.google.com...
(edited from my posts at http://www.debate.org...)

With a week left to go, this is the most important time to think carefully about how a President Trump or President Clinton (or if there's a hilarious polling error, a possible President McMullin) will impact your lives.

It is very difficult to have a policy discussion with Trump's proposals. Immigration and tax cuts are the most concrete.

However his foreign policy is all over the board from wanting to occupy Iraq to leaving Russia alone due to fear of war. There is no comprehensive policy other than using US might to gain protection payments from allies.

Even on trade deals Trump has not indicated what industries he would seek favorable terms for versus those he may not support. His biggest miscalculation is that we are a member of the WTO and have obligations or need to remove ourselves from it. A few years back I looked up all the cases before the WTO and most were against the US. Many due to Gov subsidies for agriculture.

He doesn't have the sophistication to really even understand global trade at the scale one needs to successfully negotiate deals.

He is a lot of promises with very little substance or history on how he will back it up.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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11/2/2016 2:50:17 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/2/2016 12:12:10 AM, SolonKR wrote:
There have been many, many October surprises, from the sexual assault allegations against Trump to the Comey letter to new revelations about Trump's legally dubious exploitation of the tax code to who knows what else will come out in the next seven days.

It's easy to lose sight of what this election really is. It is not a popularity contest, or a discussion of who the better person is. The election is the determination by millions about who they think will make their lives better. To that end, I present to you all a comprehensive (leftist) review of Trump's policies as opposed to Clinton's. I encourage those with dissenting views to speak up: https://docs.google.com...
(edited from my posts at http://www.debate.org...)

With a week left to go, this is the most important time to think carefully about how a President Trump or President Clinton (or if there's a hilarious polling error, a possible President McMullin) will impact your lives.

Well, I disagree that elections are not about who you like. The policy is what it is, we know it (aside from the lack of real policy from Trump) and that is the party platforms. What happens AFTER the platform is set is getting to a place where you are comfortable with the actual person in the job.
SolonKR
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11/3/2016 10:53:43 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
No Trump supporters have a response? It's not THAT surprising, considering how terrible his policies are, but it is unfortunate. I was hoping for a good discussion. :/
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
SolonKR
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11/3/2016 10:59:07 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/2/2016 2:50:17 AM, TBR wrote:
Well, I disagree that elections are not about who you like. The policy is what it is, we know it (aside from the lack of real policy from Trump) and that is the party platforms. What happens AFTER the platform is set is getting to a place where you are comfortable with the actual person in the job.

I think people lose sight of policy far too easily and get caught up in the moment. The single most earth-shattering thing I usually talk to Trump supporters IRL about isn't anything about his character, or anything about Clinton's character; it's taxes. Just by pointing out how B.S. Trump's tax plan is and how, no, it ISN'T putting money back in the hands of the middle class, and then showing how Hillary's plan is going to give them the best of both worlds by keeping the middle/lower classes' taxes at the same level and still giving them the services that Trump would inevitably have to cut to balance the budget, I've converted far more Trump supporters to Hillary than with any other issue.

The people themselves are also very important because of the judgment calls they make (especially as commander in chief), but the media cycle discusses that 24/7, instead of the policies, which arguably will affect people way more than anything else.
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
TBR
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11/3/2016 11:19:03 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/3/2016 10:59:07 PM, SolonKR wrote:
At 11/2/2016 2:50:17 AM, TBR wrote:
Well, I disagree that elections are not about who you like. The policy is what it is, we know it (aside from the lack of real policy from Trump) and that is the party platforms. What happens AFTER the platform is set is getting to a place where you are comfortable with the actual person in the job.

I think people lose sight of policy far too easily and get caught up in the moment. The single most earth-shattering thing I usually talk to Trump supporters IRL about isn't anything about his character, or anything about Clinton's character; it's taxes. Just by pointing out how B.S. Trump's tax plan is and how, no, it ISN'T putting money back in the hands of the middle class, and then showing how Hillary's plan is going to give them the best of both worlds by keeping the middle/lower classes' taxes at the same level and still giving them the services that Trump would inevitably have to cut to balance the budget, I've converted far more Trump supporters to Hillary than with any other issue.

The people themselves are also very important because of the judgment calls they make (especially as commander in chief), but the media cycle discusses that 24/7, instead of the policies, which arguably will affect people way more than anything else.

I am not disagreeing entirely. Here is my point. The primary's is where we get to choose the candidate who will bring a platform we wish for each party, right? It is added to the respected party's general platform, right? So most of the discussion over platform should be done for people who are plugged in.

Next we have general where we attract people to a platform and a candidate. There are lots of people who know little of what the party platform really is, and it worth some discussion. Well, lots of discussion really. But, and it is a big one, what we are working towards is selecting a single person for a very big job. A job that has much more to do with things well outside their stated platform. Every day will bring new questions and problems. What we are interviewing is a person who we have to imagine IN office doing a job that is much bigger than just a platform of issues.

Yea, the PERSON matters a great deal.
TBR
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11/3/2016 11:28:46 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
You know... Let me add this. My sister and I were talking last night while watching the West Wing. It doesn't matter much but we have been talking about Trump in the place of Bartlet and it has become a bit of a joke. Anyway, we were talking about Obama saying early on in the first term somtihng like "So I was reading a whitepaper on switchgrass" and we said, no, Trump has absolutely zero intellectual curiosity - he would not ask for a whitepaper on switchgrass. Point is, switchgrass has nothing to do with Obama's platform, but I like that about Obama the person. I like that about my POTUS.
Romanii
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11/4/2016 1:29:02 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/3/2016 10:53:43 PM, SolonKR wrote:
No Trump supporters have a response? It's not THAT surprising, considering how terrible his policies are, but it is unfortunate. I was hoping for a good discussion. :/

I'll fight you to the death on this. Trump's policies are awesome.

Unfortunately, I don't think I'll have time until Sunday or Monday, but rest assured -- I'll get to it.
Romanii
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11/4/2016 1:51:37 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/3/2016 3:22:30 AM, SolonKR wrote:

For now, though, I will say that you're way too focused on policy details. The President isn't involved in crafting specific legislation. All they can really do is put forth a broad vision for what they want to do in each policy area and then engage in the political maneuvering necessary to get it implemented (e.g. utilizing the bully pulpit, negotiating with legislators, etc.)

Writing a bunch of policy specifics on your website doesn't indicate anything other than that you're capable of hiring a couple of knowledgeable staffers. The average working class American (i.e. Trump's target audience) isn't convinced by policy specifics. Trump's website opts to utilize the persuasive value of simplicity & boldness (much like his oratory style).

And you're also assuming that Hillary is gonna do whatever her website says. Given the truckloads of money she receives from corporate lobbyists, and her blatant admission that she has a "public position and a private position" on everything, I'm rather skeptical. These corporations aren't stupid. They're not donating hundreds of thousands of dollars to candidate who's gonna screw them over.
xus00HAY
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11/4/2016 2:16:58 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
I disagree, it is about who you like. They don't say much about policy, Trump is mostly moderately right wing,and Mrs. Clinton is on the far left.
Mrs. Clinton has constructed a case against trump that is mostly built on a few lies*, that we keep hearing over and over again so people will feel sorry for Trump by election day.

*He made a joke about if you r'e a big shot you can grab a woman's ***** in a place where no women were present, and this proves he does not respect women.

His corporation is bankrupt because he is incompetent, this is why he won't show his tax return.

He could go crazy if he got angry and would launch nuclear weapons.

He is a bad example for children because he has said things like 'fatty' and "bimbo" and "pochahontas".

When people start chanting at a rally it is just like when Hitler did the Nuremburg rally.

He is a racist, he doesn't mind Black or Asian people but Mexican and Muslim are races and he hates those people. And he was endorsed by the KKK newspaper.

There are all these women who have said he sexually assaulted them. This is heresay evidence they won't go on TV and tell the story and give details as to where and when this happened.
thett3
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11/4/2016 2:33:02 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/3/2016 10:53:43 PM, SolonKR wrote:
No Trump supporters have a response? It's not THAT surprising, considering how terrible his policies are, but it is unfortunate. I was hoping for a good discussion. :/

It's more that nobody wants to refute a four page paper.

You don't have to like Trumps policies, but they are 100% the reason that most of his supporters adore him. Trump is the first political figure to unite the big three branches of right-wing populism: anti-immigration, anti-globalism, and anti-war. Even if he has done so inconsistently and often incoherently, he's the closest thing to a candidate advocating sane policies we've had in a long time (which itself is a damning critique of our political system). I would dearly love to have a better candidate articulate these ideas, but I'll take whatever I can get when compared to Hillary who never saw a war she didn't like and is open about her belief that people like me are deplorable, irredeemable scum.

Trump won the nomination despite being a terrible candidate running a terrible campaign because white working class desperation is just that high.
DDO Vice President

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#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Greyparrot
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11/4/2016 2:38:37 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/4/2016 2:33:02 AM, thett3 wrote:

Trump won the nomination despite being a terrible candidate running a terrible campaign because white working class desperation is just that high.

And the elite politicians are just that stupid and oblivious.
thett3
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11/4/2016 2:39:20 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
Solon, if you really want to understand the impetus for Trump check out these two things.

First, read this article:

http://www.wsj.com...

Most notable quote is at the beginning. "The elementary school in Arcadia, Wis., went from almost all non-Hispanic white at the turn of the century to 73% Hispanic as of this year."

This is what is happening all around America. Anybody not expecting a racialist backlash is a utopian fool.

Secondly, examine this chart: http://www.rationalargumentator.com...
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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11/4/2016 2:40:06 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/4/2016 2:38:37 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 11/4/2016 2:33:02 AM, thett3 wrote:

Trump won the nomination despite being a terrible candidate running a terrible campaign because white working class desperation is just that high.

And the elite politicians are just that stupid and oblivious.

Yeah...it's insane how out of touch they are. That's a common sign of a late-stage, collapsing society
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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11/4/2016 2:43:48 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/4/2016 2:39:20 AM, thett3 wrote:
Solon, if you really want to understand the impetus for Trump check out these two things.

First, read this article:

http://www.wsj.com...

Most notable quote is at the beginning. "The elementary school in Arcadia, Wis., went from almost all non-Hispanic white at the turn of the century to 73% Hispanic as of this year."

This is what is happening all around America. Anybody not expecting a racialist backlash is a utopian fool.

Secondly, examine this chart: http://www.rationalargumentator.com...

My own old elementary school (that my parents pay taxes to fund) is now solidly hispanic, and 1/3rd of the kids cannot speak English. Moreover, the left has created an atmosphere where even discussing things like this is taboo. So resentment only grows until it boils over and you get a Trump-like figure (or more likely, something far far worse)

If you think it's over after Trump you aren't paying attention. The white identity politics genie is not going back into the bottle.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
xus00HAY
Posts: 1,395
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11/4/2016 4:51:51 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
"Trump won the nomination despite being a terrible candidate running a terrible campaign because white working class desperation is just that high."
OR, maybe the democrats registered as republicans and voted in the republican primarys . There is no law against doing this.
The plan was to vote for the worst candidate, then the GOP will be saddled with a nominee that is so bad, even Hillary could beat him.
I am not disagreeing with you or Trump on policy. I thought he was too rich and to arrogant to get the majority of votes.
When someone has SO much more than we do, we can't help but resent it.
yourgodisdead
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11/4/2016 10:25:33 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At least trump can run a business. Our nations economy is similar in some ways to a business. ... Not to mention hel keep the white man in charge. W30;
All Hillary cares about are minorities, and taking your guns away.
slo1
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11/4/2016 11:24:07 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/4/2016 2:16:58 AM, xus00HAY wrote:
I disagree, it is about who you like. They don't say much about policy, Trump is mostly moderately right wing,and Mrs. Clinton is on the far left.
Mrs. Clinton has constructed a case against trump that is mostly built on a few lies*, that we keep hearing over and over again so people will feel sorry for Trump by election day.

*He made a joke about if you r'e a big shot you can grab a woman's ***** in a place where no women were present, and this proves he does not respect women.

His corporation is bankrupt because he is incompetent, this is why he won't show his tax return.

He could go crazy if he got angry and would launch nuclear weapons.

He is a bad example for children because he has said things like 'fatty' and "bimbo" and "pochahontas".

When people start chanting at a rally it is just like when Hitler did the Nuremburg rally.

He is a racist, he doesn't mind Black or Asian people but Mexican and Muslim are races and he hates those people. And he was endorsed by the KKK newspaper.

There are all these women who have said he sexually assaulted them. This is heresay evidence they won't go on TV and tell the story and give details as to where and when this happened.

Trump is left socially with exception of his abortion pandering and is far right with Nationalistic fever. He is also against free trade and us for gov subsidies of certain industries such as corn and coal.

Hillary just got enforced by a neoconservative. Her foreign policy is very much right of center.

Point is that both candidates don't fit traditional categorization.

Policies matter.
Romanii
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11/4/2016 11:26:13 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/4/2016 2:33:02 AM, thett3 wrote:
Trump won the nomination despite being a terrible candidate running a terrible campaign because white working class desperation is just that high.

Eh... I disagree that he's "terrible." He's an excellent showman. From day one of his campaign, he's shown that he understands his target audience a lot better than any of his critics do. I'm not one of those "4-D chess" people, but I do think Trump's campaigning style has an underlying methodology to it. He wouldn't be where he is today if it weren't for some of the stuff his critics see as weaknesses.

The only reason he isn't dominating the polls like he was in the primaries is because the liberal media and the Clinton political machine have been successful in pushing the narrative that he's a scary bigoted fascist.
Greyparrot
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11/4/2016 11:57:17 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/4/2016 11:26:13 AM, Romanii wrote:
At 11/4/2016 2:33:02 AM, thett3 wrote:
Trump won the nomination despite being a terrible candidate running a terrible campaign because white working class desperation is just that high.

Eh... I disagree that he's "terrible." He's an excellent showman. From day one of his campaign, he's shown that he understands his target audience a lot better than any of his critics do. I'm not one of those "4-D chess" people, but I do think Trump's campaigning style has an underlying methodology to it. He wouldn't be where he is today if it weren't for some of the stuff his critics see as weaknesses.

The only reason he isn't dominating the polls like he was in the primaries is because the liberal media and the Clinton political machine have been successful in pushing the narrative that he's a scary bigoted fascist.

Let's just agree he is very bad at saying the traditional political things that lull the voter into a false sense of security, other than "make america great again.".... which is really weak compared to the other side promising free stuff and social utopia.
Romanii
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11/4/2016 12:00:59 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/4/2016 11:57:17 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
Let's just agree he is very bad at saying the traditional political things that lull the voter into a false sense of security, other than "make america great again.".... which is really weak compared to the other side promising free stuff and social utopia.

Seems to me that the "traditional political things" are precisely what his voters are tired of hearing.
Vaarka
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11/4/2016 3:20:35 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/2/2016 12:12:10 AM, SolonKR wrote:

Trump vs Clinton?

It's funny because I've gotten to a point where I care more about my rank in osu! (and I don't really care about my rank in osu!) than I care about who ends up winning.
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SolonKR
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11/5/2016 7:53:18 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/4/2016 1:51:37 AM, Romanii wrote:
At 11/3/2016 3:22:30 AM, SolonKR wrote:
For now, though, I will say that you're way too focused on policy details. The President isn't involved in crafting specific legislation. All they can really do is put forth a broad vision for what they want to do in each policy area and then engage in the political maneuvering necessary to get it implemented (e.g. utilizing the bully pulpit, negotiating with legislators, etc.)

Writing a bunch of policy specifics on your website doesn't indicate anything other than that you're capable of hiring a couple of knowledgeable staffers. The average working class American (i.e. Trump's target audience) isn't convinced by policy specifics. Trump's website opts to utilize the persuasive value of simplicity & boldness (much like his oratory style).

You're correct that the president isn't involved in crafting specific legislation, but you misunderstand the issue at hand here. Republicans will most likely control both houses if Trump is elected. Where the Republicans in Congress and Trump's platform align, there is legislation passed (else, the Republicans won't pass it or there will be a veto). In other words, if you vote Republicans into office, you're going to get objectively terrible legislation. It isn't irrelevant at all: a vote for Trump is a vote for Republican policies, and with majorities in both houses, there's going to be a lot of Republican policies passed.

Either you believe Trump is going to work with Republicans to pass his policies or you don't. If you don't, why would you ever vote for him? If you do, you're voting for those policy positions. You can say that policy positions don't affect how people vote, but they should affect how they vote; the thought that millions of people are going to vote to give tax breaks to the rich that the poor will have to pay for through spending cuts, vote to implement tariffs that are going to make it harder to afford daily life, vote to take the country backwards on social issues is abhorrent.

And you're also assuming that Hillary is gonna do whatever her website says. Given the truckloads of money she receives from corporate lobbyists, and her blatant admission that she has a "public position and a private position" on everything, I'm rather skeptical. These corporations aren't stupid. They're not donating hundreds of thousands of dollars to candidate who's gonna screw them over.

Having different public and private positions is actually something that every leader should do. Backing that up is a fascinating body of literature on legitimation strategies. I can talk about that if you're interested in hearing about it. Corporate lobbyists have been in Hillary's life long before she was running for president, and she still has a good voting record (except for Iraq, but Trump supported that as well) and a history of championing progressive causes, so I find no substantive reason to fear that she will suddenly pull a 180 and say, "Psyche, I lied about all my campaign promises!" That's a political death sentence.

Also, I want to clear up this silly image that's far too prevalent of corporate lobbyists as these nefarious people that tell candidates, "I'll give you loads of money if you only come to the dark side and support a bad policy," but in reality, those sorts of donations usually come from interest groups who say "Hey, you agree with and support causes that are beneficial to us, so we want to help you advance those causes." Take the NRA, for example. They've got huge lobbying capabilities, but they don't give that money to Democrats in the hope of making them change their minds on guns. They give that money to Republicans that already supported them.

Now, you can turn that around on me and say, "Well Solon, you've just admitted that Hillary has always supported big business and banks!" However, thinking about that another way, does it make sense to oppose big business and banks? Hillary also has a natural advantage in courting them this cycle in that a Trump presidency runs a very real risk of creating financial instability. I mean, Trump is all about cutting taxes and regulation, yet they don't flock to him, so clearly the explanation for corporations supporting Clinton is not that Clinton is going to be more friendly than Trump. That's just silly. More likely it has to do with the stability that she offers and markets crave.

Regardless, what's most important is that Clinton has demonstrated throughout her life a commitment to progressive policies, and I have full faith in her continued desire to pass said policies.
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
SolonKR
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11/5/2016 8:23:31 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/4/2016 2:39:20 AM, thett3 wrote:
Solon, if you really want to understand the impetus for Trump check out these two things.

I understand the reasons why people want to vote for Trump. They feel their cultural dominance is fading, and they're right--cultural conservatives are about to disappear from the winning coalition (thank God) or may have already disappeared. They feel like the working class is fading from existence, and they're right. If you identify culturally with rural, working whites, and if you are a working-class white yourself, I don't disagree that it may be in your self-interest to vote for Trump. He addresses those concerns that particular bloc has. He may do it poorly in several instances (tariffs + not likely to raise the minimum wage = more poverty), but he addresses them.

However, it's important to note that the reason this is happening to every working-class individual save for those in the manufacturing class is because of the continued tax breaks for the wealthy and refusal to raise the minimum wage by Republicans. Trump is going to continue those two policies; Clinton is not. If you're wanting to raise working-class income, that sure as hell isn't going to come from Trump's policies.

White identity politics is the same sort of racist backlash we've had against every new group of foreigners. It'll pass just like the rest of the waves of backlash did, in time. I really don't feel the need to address this; improving integration efforts is important, and securing the border is important, but it's not an existential or major crisis by any stretch of the imagination (though I would like to see your source for the 1/3 non-English figure out of curiosity). My God, there are increasing numbers of people who are a different color than me that go to schools and don't speak English? The world is truly collapsing upon itself. /sarcasm

The racialist backlash is the fault of those promoting the racialist backlash, because while some issues are certainly concerning and demand a response, the alt-right overreacts and believes that there must be some racial/cultural superiority of whites and that whites need to vote as an ethnic bloc to preserve their supremacy. Count me out of that bloc, doubly if that bloc expects me to let the rich get away with paying even less, and expects me to let government services that I and many others utilize be gutted in the name of that wealthfare.

All this being said, voters as individuals absolutely need to look at policy when they determine who they support. That's not debatable. If individuals don't care, so be it; they're casting uninformed, potentially self-harming votes, and that's unfortunate. But I think that if more people stopped to think about what a Trump presidency and a Clinton presidency means tangibly to their own lives, Clinton would be overwhelmingly winning. That's why I created the thread: so that undecideds have a much better framework for evaluating the potential presidencies of 2017-2021 than they might have been using before.
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SolonKR
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11/5/2016 8:24:01 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
If anything I said makes no sense, tell me; I wrote this all after midnight and am very, very tired.
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tejretics
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11/5/2016 2:22:26 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/4/2016 1:51:37 AM, Romanii wrote:
For now, though, I will say that you're way too focused on policy details. The President isn't involved in crafting specific legislation. All they can really do is put forth a broad vision for what they want to do in each policy area and then engage in the political maneuvering necessary to get it implemented (e.g. utilizing the bully pulpit, negotiating with legislators, etc.)

Trump's broad vision is terrible, like that of a typical establishment Republican, though he is perhaps less competent.

And you're also assuming that Hillary is gonna do whatever her website says. Given the truckloads of money she receives from corporate lobbyists, and her blatant admission that she has a "public position and a private position" on everything, I'm rather skeptical. These corporations aren't stupid. They're not donating hundreds of thousands of dollars to candidate who's gonna screw them over.

Hillary cares about her political career, and she knows that if she doesn't at least broadly mirror the principles of the Democratic Party her political career ends. I don't give a sh!t what her personal positions are (I do, but that is substantially diluted by the fact that she is facing Trump) insofar as the political positions she espouses and implements as president are better than Trump's.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
triangle.128k
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11/5/2016 2:48:13 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/5/2016 8:23:31 AM, SolonKR wrote:
At 11/4/2016 2:39:20 AM, thett3 wrote:
Solon, if you really want to understand the impetus for Trump check out these two things.


However, it's important to note that the reason this is happening to every working-class individual save for those in the manufacturing class is because of the continued tax breaks for the wealthy and refusal to raise the minimum wage by Republicans. Trump is going to continue those two policies; Clinton is not. If you're wanting to raise working-class income, that sure as hell isn't going to come from Trump's policies.
Raising taxes on the wealthy is an awful idea. Do note that the wealthy are heavily investing in the economy and running businesses to employ more people, and taxing them will likely have the opposite effect. (Though personally, I would prefer to have tax breaks for everybody). I do not understand why income inequality matters so long as all classes of society live comfortably. Redistribution of wealth is an awful way to raise conditions for the working class, as it would be a much better idea to actually support policies which would help the economy grow and become stronger.

The minimum wage is also not MEANT to be a living wage, and raising the minimum wage will result in two major things: Inflation and unemployment.

White identity politics is the same sort of racist backlash we've had against every new group of foreigners. It'll pass just like the rest of the waves of backlash did, in time. I really don't feel the need to address this; improving integration efforts is important, and securing the border is important, but it's not an existential or major crisis by any stretch of the imagination (though I would like to see your source for the 1/3 non-English figure out of curiosity). My God, there are increasing numbers of people who are a different color than me that go to schools and don't speak English? The world is truly collapsing upon itself. /sarcasm
White identity politics are a huge minority in the US, and there is absolutely NO significant backlash against foreigners that aren't causing an harm.

Regarding non-English speakers, this is nothing to take lightly. It may be the case that people actually want immigrants to culturally assimilate if they can, instead of having huge groups of Latino immigrants down south who will not bother to learn our language or assimilate to other things.

The racialist backlash is the fault of those promoting the racialist backlash, because while some issues are certainly concerning and demand a response, the alt-right overreacts and believes that there must be some racial/cultural superiority of whites and that whites need to vote as an ethnic bloc to preserve their supremacy. Count me out of that bloc, doubly if that bloc expects me to let the rich get away with paying even less, and expects me to let government services that I and many others utilize be gutted in the name of that wealthfare.
Found another buzzword here; the alt right doesn't exist. The alt right is merely nothing but a buzzword, and it has no clear definition either.
Also please note that Trump supporters in general are FAR from racist. If that were the case, racial tensions would be as high as they were in the 1950s given how many people in the US support Trump.

All this being said, voters as individuals absolutely need to look at policy when they determine who they support. That's not debatable. If individuals don't care, so be it; they're casting uninformed, potentially self-harming votes, and that's unfortunate. But I think that if more people stopped to think about what a Trump presidency and a Clinton presidency means tangibly to their own lives, Clinton would be overwhelmingly winning. That's why I created the thread: so that undecideds have a much better framework for evaluating the potential presidencies of 2017-2021 than they might have been using before.
Which they do? They believe Trump's policies are better than Clinton's?