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Finally decided on Clinton

Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
I have been stuck in a type of limbo during this election, and ironically it's not about who to vote for but whether to vote at all. I actively criticize trump for his personal flaws more than his policy. Even if Trump's policies were near perfect, his temperament and demeanor would still be a primary factor in whether or not he should be elected. Most people assume because I dislike Trump, I support Clinton which is poor framing. I dislike both of these candidates to the point I was not going to vote this election. Clinton has had scandal after scandal, and even with the risk of being indicted, I would still vote for her over Trump. Primarily because even if she is indicted, the presidency falls to a man who is still vastly more qualified than Trump to run the country. Part of me hopes she is indicted because it would put Tim Kaine in office and to me that is largely a better choice than both of the people who are running.

I think the choice of this election often is a lesser of two evils argument to which the common response is "the lesser of two evils is still evil". Again this is poor framing due to the fact you have to select one or the other. Meaning both choices are bad so which will do the less harm, is actually a valid way to frame this. The entire vote with your heart and vote for what you feel is strictly an appeal to emotion and if that leads you to vote for a third party candidate, also leads to a waste of a vote. There is virtually no way Johnson or Stein will win this with how the media controls the two party system. To me, a vote for one of them is essentially not voting. It's not making a statement, and if it is making a statement, the statement will have no impact at all on anything. To make a substantial difference, more of the country would have to be on board with it which is not a possibility.

All this leads me to the conclusion, that any vote that is not for Clinton, even a vote that is not cast, is a vote for Trump. To that in, I am voting for Clinton with the hope Kaine takes her place
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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11/4/2016 6:43:28 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:

Which of his flaws do you find most concerning, in relation to his performance as POTUS ?
Vaarka
Posts: 7,533
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11/4/2016 6:59:03 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At this point in the election, I care more about my rank in osu! than I do about the election, and I don't care all that much about my rank in osu!...
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

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RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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11/4/2016 7:06:18 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:

All this leads me to the conclusion, that any vote that is not for Clinton, even a vote that is not cast, is a vote for Trump. To that in, I am voting for Clinton with the hope Kaine takes her place

So you are voting for the President in the hopes that she gets replaced by the Vice President? Just wow.
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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11/4/2016 7:08:04 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 7:06:18 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:

All this leads me to the conclusion, that any vote that is not for Clinton, even a vote that is not cast, is a vote for Trump. To that in, I am voting for Clinton with the hope Kaine takes her place

So you are voting for the President in the hopes that she gets replaced by the Vice President? Just wow.

It's a chain

Kaine > Clinton > Trump

So the obvious way to vote is not Trump. If she gets elected it's still better than Trump, and if she does get indicted then we have the best possible choice.
RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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11/4/2016 7:15:22 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 7:08:04 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:06:18 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:

All this leads me to the conclusion, that any vote that is not for Clinton, even a vote that is not cast, is a vote for Trump. To that in, I am voting for Clinton with the hope Kaine takes her place

So you are voting for the President in the hopes that she gets replaced by the Vice President? Just wow.

It's a chain

Kaine > Clinton > Trump

So the obvious way to vote is not Trump. If she gets elected it's still better than Trump, and if she does get indicted then we have the best possible choice.

Whatever floats your boat. Both VP candidates are likely better than their running mates in this election. But how many times in American history has the VP actually become the President? Voting in the hopes that happens is pretty silly if you ask me...but in this cycle I suppose nothing is out of question.
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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11/4/2016 7:17:12 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 6:43:28 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:

Which of his flaws do you find most concerning, in relation to his performance as POTUS ?

His capacity to respond rationally under pressure, and his inexperience with any sort of political endeavors. I mean you could label this as a "political endeavor" but it's less of that and more of a marketing stunt that went way better than expected. He understood who and what he was appealing to and nailed it. I mean it shows his charisma on TV and how well he can work the media and it also highlights his showmanship but that's the limit to it. I honestly think the reason he is running at this point is just to say "I did it". Trump has an alpha male personality and this is him just whipping his dik out and smacking America with it for the sake of pissing on his proclaimed territory and building his own legacy.

When he is actually forced to respond to things that actually require political depth, he typically just spouts off generalized rhetoric with no real substance or understanding of the topic. Refer back to the Triad question a few months ago. If he is pressed on issues, he always falls short. Add that to the fact that he responds with emotion, it's a very bad thing. look at his response when people "tweet" at him. Imagine him suffering criticism from other world leaders, and how he could possibly respond.

I have less of an issue with his actual policies than I do with him as a person.
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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11/4/2016 7:18:18 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 7:15:22 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:08:04 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:06:18 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:

All this leads me to the conclusion, that any vote that is not for Clinton, even a vote that is not cast, is a vote for Trump. To that in, I am voting for Clinton with the hope Kaine takes her place

So you are voting for the President in the hopes that she gets replaced by the Vice President? Just wow.

It's a chain

Kaine > Clinton > Trump

So the obvious way to vote is not Trump. If she gets elected it's still better than Trump, and if she does get indicted then we have the best possible choice.

Whatever floats your boat. Both VP candidates are likely better than their running mates in this election. But how many times in American history has the VP actually become the President? Voting in the hopes that happens is pretty silly if you ask me...but in this cycle I suppose nothing is out of question.

It does not mean it "will happen". Clinton is still a better choice than Trump in my mind. If Kaine happens to find his way in, I'll be all the more happier because it shatters the lesser of two evils outline this race has taken.
RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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11/4/2016 7:21:48 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 7:18:18 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:15:22 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:08:04 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:06:18 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:


Clinton is still a better choice than Trump in my mind.

How so? And I don't particularly like Trump.
Robkwoods
Posts: 570
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11/4/2016 7:25:26 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:
I have been stuck in a type of limbo during this election, and ironically it's not about who to vote for but whether to vote at all. I actively criticize trump for his personal flaws more than his policy. Even if Trump's policies were near perfect, his temperament and demeanor would still be a primary factor in whether or not he should be elected. Most people assume because I dislike Trump, I support Clinton which is poor framing. I dislike both of these candidates to the point I was not going to vote this election. Clinton has had scandal after scandal, and even with the risk of being indicted, I would still vote for her over Trump. Primarily because even if she is indicted, the presidency falls to a man who is still vastly more qualified than Trump to run the country. Part of me hopes she is indicted because it would put Tim Kaine in office and to me that is largely a better choice than both of the people who are running.

I think the choice of this election often is a lesser of two evils argument to which the common response is "the lesser of two evils is still evil". Again this is poor framing due to the fact you have to select one or the other. Meaning both choices are bad so which will do the less harm, is actually a valid way to frame this. The entire vote with your heart and vote for what you feel is strictly an appeal to emotion and if that leads you to vote for a third party candidate, also leads to a waste of a vote. There is virtually no way Johnson or Stein will win this with how the media controls the two party system. To me, a vote for one of them is essentially not voting. It's not making a statement, and if it is making a statement, the statement will have no impact at all on anything. To make a substantial difference, more of the country would have to be on board with it which is not a possibility.

All this leads me to the conclusion, that any vote that is not for Clinton, even a vote that is not cast, is a vote for Trump. To that in, I am voting for Clinton with the hope Kaine takes her place

I could replace Hillary with Trump and come to the same conclusion.

The only logical reason to vote for Hillary is that she will be so utterly terrible that all down ballots will be filled with Libertarians and Repubs, effectively destroying the Democratic Party. After the fall, Socialist Bernie Sanders will rise from the ashes to create the Democratic Nordic American Socialist Immigrant Party, De NASIs for short, as a major party. Meanwhile Repubs will nominate Ben Shapiro. The 2020 showdown will be an epic display of Libertarians vs Authoritarians.

With all that said, I voted for Johnson. So see you in 2020, I need to go buy guns for my bunker.
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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11/4/2016 7:38:40 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 7:21:48 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:18:18 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:15:22 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:08:04 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:06:18 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:


Clinton is still a better choice than Trump in my mind.

How so? And I don't particularly like Trump.

I framed this in a post above. See my response to Romani, at least for the main reason I dislike Trump
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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11/4/2016 7:41:44 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 7:25:26 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:
I have been stuck in a type of limbo during this election, and ironically it's not about who to vote for but whether to vote at all. I actively criticize trump for his personal flaws more than his policy. Even if Trump's policies were near perfect, his temperament and demeanor would still be a primary factor in whether or not he should be elected. Most people assume because I dislike Trump, I support Clinton which is poor framing. I dislike both of these candidates to the point I was not going to vote this election. Clinton has had scandal after scandal, and even with the risk of being indicted, I would still vote for her over Trump. Primarily because even if she is indicted, the presidency falls to a man who is still vastly more qualified than Trump to run the country. Part of me hopes she is indicted because it would put Tim Kaine in office and to me that is largely a better choice than both of the people who are running.

I think the choice of this election often is a lesser of two evils argument to which the common response is "the lesser of two evils is still evil". Again this is poor framing due to the fact you have to select one or the other. Meaning both choices are bad so which will do the less harm, is actually a valid way to frame this. The entire vote with your heart and vote for what you feel is strictly an appeal to emotion and if that leads you to vote for a third party candidate, also leads to a waste of a vote. There is virtually no way Johnson or Stein will win this with how the media controls the two party system. To me, a vote for one of them is essentially not voting. It's not making a statement, and if it is making a statement, the statement will have no impact at all on anything. To make a substantial difference, more of the country would have to be on board with it which is not a possibility.

All this leads me to the conclusion, that any vote that is not for Clinton, even a vote that is not cast, is a vote for Trump. To that in, I am voting for Clinton with the hope Kaine takes her place

I could replace Hillary with Trump and come to the same conclusion.

The only logical reason to vote for Hillary is that she will be so utterly terrible that all down ballots will be filled with Libertarians and Repubs, effectively destroying the Democratic Party. After the fall, Socialist Bernie Sanders will rise from the ashes to create the Democratic Nordic American Socialist Immigrant Party, De NASIs for short, as a major party. Meanwhile Repubs will nominate Ben Shapiro. The 2020 showdown will be an epic display of Libertarians vs Authoritarians.

With all that said, I voted for Johnson. So see you in 2020, I need to go buy guns for my bunker.

I think you are in an alternative reality. The fact is that Trump is such a poor choice that he has basically made democratic control easier to obtain. This should have been the cycle where Republicans took power and Trumps ego popped that bubble.
Robkwoods
Posts: 570
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11/4/2016 7:50:56 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 7:41:44 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:25:26 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:
I have been stuck in a type of limbo during this election, and ironically it's not about who to vote for but whether to vote at all. I actively criticize trump for his personal flaws more than his policy. Even if Trump's policies were near perfect, his temperament and demeanor would still be a primary factor in whether or not he should be elected. Most people assume because I dislike Trump, I support Clinton which is poor framing. I dislike both of these candidates to the point I was not going to vote this election. Clinton has had scandal after scandal, and even with the risk of being indicted, I would still vote for her over Trump. Primarily because even if she is indicted, the presidency falls to a man who is still vastly more qualified than Trump to run the country. Part of me hopes she is indicted because it would put Tim Kaine in office and to me that is largely a better choice than both of the people who are running.

I think the choice of this election often is a lesser of two evils argument to which the common response is "the lesser of two evils is still evil". Again this is poor framing due to the fact you have to select one or the other. Meaning both choices are bad so which will do the less harm, is actually a valid way to frame this. The entire vote with your heart and vote for what you feel is strictly an appeal to emotion and if that leads you to vote for a third party candidate, also leads to a waste of a vote. There is virtually no way Johnson or Stein will win this with how the media controls the two party system. To me, a vote for one of them is essentially not voting. It's not making a statement, and if it is making a statement, the statement will have no impact at all on anything. To make a substantial difference, more of the country would have to be on board with it which is not a possibility.

All this leads me to the conclusion, that any vote that is not for Clinton, even a vote that is not cast, is a vote for Trump. To that in, I am voting for Clinton with the hope Kaine takes her place

I could replace Hillary with Trump and come to the same conclusion.

The only logical reason to vote for Hillary is that she will be so utterly terrible that all down ballots will be filled with Libertarians and Repubs, effectively destroying the Democratic Party. After the fall, Socialist Bernie Sanders will rise from the ashes to create the Democratic Nordic American Socialist Immigrant Party, De NASIs for short, as a major party. Meanwhile Repubs will nominate Ben Shapiro. The 2020 showdown will be an epic display of Libertarians vs Authoritarians.

With all that said, I voted for Johnson. So see you in 2020, I need to go buy guns for my bunker.

I think you are in an alternative reality. The fact is that Trump is such a poor choice that he has basically made democratic control easier to obtain. This should have been the cycle where Republicans took power and Trumps ego popped that bubble.

Yes an alternative reality from you. Feel free to join the rest of us down here rooted with logic. Again I can replace Trump with Hillary, Republicans with Democrats; lest we for get Socialist Bernie Sanders.
Peepette
Posts: 1,237
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11/4/2016 7:53:35 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 7:18:18 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:15:22 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:08:04 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:06:18 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:

All this leads me to the conclusion, that any vote that is not for Clinton, even a vote that is not cast, is a vote for Trump. To that in, I am voting for Clinton with the hope Kaine takes her place

So you are voting for the President in the hopes that she gets replaced by the Vice President? Just wow.

It's a chain

Kaine > Clinton > Trump

So the obvious way to vote is not Trump. If she gets elected it's still better than Trump, and if she does get indicted then we have the best possible choice.

Whatever floats your boat. Both VP candidates are likely better than their running mates in this election. But how many times in American history has the VP actually become the President? Voting in the hopes that happens is pretty silly if you ask me...but in this cycle I suppose nothing is out of question.

It does not mean it "will happen". Clinton is still a better choice than Trump in my mind. If Kaine happens to find his way in, I'll be all the more happier because it shatters the lesser of two evils outline this race has taken.

I have to agree with most of your thinking. Trump does not have a diplomatic temperament, nor background in foreign policy, as well as seems to ignore facts placed in front of him during intelligence briefings . He is not a deep thinker or sees a greater wide view of anything. His economic plan will lead to rapid inflation. But not only do I fear what damage Trump can do to this country, I also fear Pence. He introduced a religious freedom bill in Indiana, sanctioning discrimination. He's an evangelical Christian ultra conservative who supports the Tea Party and endorsed Ted Cruz prior to being Trump's running mate, as well has connections with the Koch Bros. He supported shutting down the government over funding to Planned Parenthood. Kaine as a presidential alternative is far more appealing.
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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11/4/2016 8:19:59 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
cuck
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Quadrunner
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11/4/2016 9:15:03 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:
I have been stuck in a type of limbo during this election, and ironically it's not about who to vote for but whether to vote at all. I actively criticize trump for his personal flaws more than his policy. Even if Trump's policies were near perfect, his temperament and demeanor would still be a primary factor in whether or not he should be elected. Most people assume because I dislike Trump, I support Clinton which is poor framing. I dislike both of these candidates to the point I was not going to vote this election. Clinton has had scandal after scandal, and even with the risk of being indicted, I would still vote for her over Trump. Primarily because even if she is indicted, the presidency falls to a man who is still vastly more qualified than Trump to run the country. Part of me hopes she is indicted because it would put Tim Kaine in office and to me that is largely a better choice than both of the people who are running.

I think the choice of this election often is a lesser of two evils argument to which the common response is "the lesser of two evils is still evil". Again this is poor framing due to the fact you have to select one or the other. Meaning both choices are bad so which will do the less harm, is actually a valid way to frame this. The entire vote with your heart and vote for what you feel is strictly an appeal to emotion and if that leads you to vote for a third party candidate, also leads to a waste of a vote. There is virtually no way Johnson or Stein will win this with how the media controls the two party system. To me, a vote for one of them is essentially not voting. It's not making a statement, and if it is making a statement, the statement will have no impact at all on anything. To make a substantial difference, more of the country would have to be on board with it which is not a possibility.

All this leads me to the conclusion, that any vote that is not for Clinton, even a vote that is not cast, is a vote for Trump. To that in, I am voting for Clinton with the hope Kaine takes her place

Honestly I think Hillary Clinton has a worse temper then Donald Trump, and no sign of better values. She's just better on camera, less transparent.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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11/5/2016 1:24:36 AM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 7:15:22 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:08:04 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:06:18 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:

All this leads me to the conclusion, that any vote that is not for Clinton, even a vote that is not cast, is a vote for Trump. To that in, I am voting for Clinton with the hope Kaine takes her place

So you are voting for the President in the hopes that she gets replaced by the Vice President? Just wow.

It's a chain

Kaine > Clinton > Trump

So the obvious way to vote is not Trump. If she gets elected it's still better than Trump, and if she does get indicted then we have the best possible choice.

Whatever floats your boat. Both VP candidates are likely better than their running mates in this election. But how many times in American history has the VP actually become the President? Voting in the hopes that happens is pretty silly if you ask me...but in this cycle I suppose nothing is out of question.

I always evaluated VP candidates as representatives of where the party is going in the future. The last 3 GOP vp's were Palin, Ryan and Pence, indicating that the GOP is staying pretty much the same (Pence, Ryan) with a dash of stupidity and insanity thrown in there as well (Palin)..... The last 3 Dem VP's have been Kaine and Biden if you count him twice (Gore if you only count Biden once), indicating that the Democratic party is staying pretty center left.
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RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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11/5/2016 2:11:10 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 7:41:44 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:25:26 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:
I have been stuck in a type of limbo during this election, and ironically it's not about who to vote for but whether to vote at all. I actively criticize trump for his personal flaws more than his policy. Even if Trump's policies were near perfect, his temperament and demeanor would still be a primary factor in whether or not he should be elected. Most people assume because I dislike Trump, I support Clinton which is poor framing. I dislike both of these candidates to the point I was not going to vote this election. Clinton has had scandal after scandal, and even with the risk of being indicted, I would still vote for her over Trump. Primarily because even if she is indicted, the presidency falls to a man who is still vastly more qualified than Trump to run the country. Part of me hopes she is indicted because it would put Tim Kaine in office and to me that is largely a better choice than both of the people who are running.

I think the choice of this election often is a lesser of two evils argument to which the common response is "the lesser of two evils is still evil". Again this is poor framing due to the fact you have to select one or the other. Meaning both choices are bad so which will do the less harm, is actually a valid way to frame this. The entire vote with your heart and vote for what you feel is strictly an appeal to emotion and if that leads you to vote for a third party candidate, also leads to a waste of a vote. There is virtually no way Johnson or Stein will win this with how the media controls the two party system. To me, a vote for one of them is essentially not voting. It's not making a statement, and if it is making a statement, the statement will have no impact at all on anything. To make a substantial difference, more of the country would have to be on board with it which is not a possibility.

All this leads me to the conclusion, that any vote that is not for Clinton, even a vote that is not cast, is a vote for Trump. To that in, I am voting for Clinton with the hope Kaine takes her place

I could replace Hillary with Trump and come to the same conclusion.

The only logical reason to vote for Hillary is that she will be so utterly terrible that all down ballots will be filled with Libertarians and Repubs, effectively destroying the Democratic Party. After the fall, Socialist Bernie Sanders will rise from the ashes to create the Democratic Nordic American Socialist Immigrant Party, De NASIs for short, as a major party. Meanwhile Repubs will nominate Ben Shapiro. The 2020 showdown will be an epic display of Libertarians vs Authoritarians.

With all that said, I voted for Johnson. So see you in 2020, I need to go buy guns for my bunker.

I think you are in an alternative reality. The fact is that Trump is such a poor choice that he has basically made democratic control easier to obtain. This should have been the cycle where Republicans took power and Trumps ego popped that bubble.

I agree with this statement. ANY other Republican candidate would have destroyed Clinton in a landslide of Reagan proportions. That said, I will simply re-post what I have said regarding Clinton in another thread:

Yes, by all means we should vote for the former failed Secretary of State who sold American foreign policy to the highest bidder. Who is cool with killing thousands of unborn babies. Who was near the top of the administration who failed in Syria, Russia, Libya, Ukraine, Iraq, Iran and a host of other places. Who basically calls all cops racist while supporting a legitimately racist organization called Black Lives Matter. Who panders to blacks and minorities for their votes while supporting and enacting policies that keep many of them in low income high crime neighborhoods in exchange for votes. Who uses Beyonce and Jay-Z as surrogates, "artists" who literally bash women and minorities in their songs, but hey they are black so who cares. A lady who belongs to the party of slavery, Jim Crow, and anti-civil rights. Who demands we open our borders to everyone, including those who despise those in the LGBT community, while pandering to that same community for their votes. Who laughed when she got an actual rapist off on a technicality. Who supported a husband who sexually assaulted and "allegedly" raped women. Who supports policies that have doubled our national debt in just 8 years. Oh and who is under two separate FBI investigations, 1 for purposefully setting up a private server in her bathroom, which was recently shown to be 99% likely to have been hacked by foreign governments and 2 for running the state department as an obvious pay for play organization.

Trump sucks, but your candidate is a complete horror show and basically an evil person.
Mikal
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11/5/2016 3:16:32 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/5/2016 2:11:10 PM, RookieApologist wrote:


Yes, by all means we should vote for the former failed Secretary of State who sold American foreign policy to the highest bidder. Who is cool with killing thousands of unborn babies. Who was near the top of the administration who failed in Syria, Russia, Libya, Ukraine, Iraq, Iran and a host of other places. Who basically calls all cops racist while supporting a legitimately racist organization called Black Lives Matter. Who panders to blacks and minorities for their votes while supporting and enacting policies that keep many of them in low income high crime neighborhoods in exchange for votes. Who uses Beyonce and Jay-Z as surrogates, "artists" who literally bash women and minorities in their songs, but hey they are black so who cares. A lady who belongs to the party of slavery, Jim Crow, and anti-civil rights. Who demands we open our borders to everyone, including those who despise those in the LGBT community, while pandering to that same community for their votes. Who laughed when she got an actual rapist off on a technicality. Who supported a husband who sexually assaulted and "allegedly" raped women. Who supports policies that have doubled our national debt in just 8 years. Oh and who is under two separate FBI investigations, 1 for purposefully setting up a private server in her bathroom, which was recently shown to be 99% likely to have been hacked by foreign governments and 2 for running the state department as an obvious pay for play organization.

Trump sucks, but your candidate is a complete horror show and basically an evil person.

I think a lot of that post is a type of generalized rhetoric that is misinformed. To critique Clinton on abortion in that sense, it would have to be unique to her. There are members of the GOP and Liberals alike that support abortion. Some of the Critiques involving Libya and Syria are fair depending on what the specific critique is. She has openly condemned BLM (at least the extremist). She supports the concept behind BLM which is equality. That is something that everyone should support. I get the point behind Jay Z and Beyonce, but there is virtually no way you can critique her on that ground. Even if the point is valid, the music they push is not as bad as Trump treating women like meat. Also she is using them for marketing, not supporting their ideals. Her border policy is certainly flawed judging from the context of those emails. She was a lawyer, that was her Job in with the response to the child rapist thing. Her husband "allegedly", when Trump "literally" promoted sexual misconduct. The email thing she has already been absolved for and it's only reopened as a political stunt.

I could take the time to write something very similar with Trump and it would be much worse. There are only a few valid critiques in there out of all of that

(1) The Syria , Libya, thing and her foreign policy and border policy ideologies
(2) The email thing which you can certianly bash her for.

I think her biggest flaws are that she is dishonest, and she is more center right than actual left. Ironically the things she should get critqued for are things republicans should like. She is more right than any other candidate that would have had a shot to run. If bernie would have beat her, he is sitting so far left it makes clinton look like a part of the GOP
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
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11/5/2016 3:51:05 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 7:17:12 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:43:28 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:

Which of his flaws do you find most concerning, in relation to his performance as POTUS ?

His capacity to respond rationally under pressure, and his inexperience with any sort of political endeavors. I mean you could label this as a "political endeavor" but it's less of that and more of a marketing stunt that went way better than expected. He understood who and what he was appealing to and nailed it. I mean it shows his charisma on TV and how well he can work the media and it also highlights his showmanship but that's the limit to it. I honestly think the reason he is running at this point is just to say "I did it". Trump has an alpha male personality and this is him just whipping his dik out and smacking America with it for the sake of pissing on his proclaimed territory and building his own legacy.

When he is actually forced to respond to things that actually require political depth, he typically just spouts off generalized rhetoric with no real substance or understanding of the topic. Refer back to the Triad question a few months ago. If he is pressed on issues, he always falls short. Add that to the fact that he responds with emotion, it's a very bad thing. look at his response when people "tweet" at him. Imagine him suffering criticism from other world leaders, and how he could possibly respond.

I have less of an issue with his actual policies than I do with him as a person.

I find this so ridiculous... even polished politicians make terrible mistakes, Hillary had decades of experience and political training BEFORE she handed the Russians an "Overcharge" Reset Button. Dispassionate leaders are most certainly the ones who will not ever change the status quo. This election is so reminiscent of the Carter election. Do you like the direction this country has been going for the last 8 (or 16 if you assume Obama continued many of the failed Bush policies) years? Then you should vote for Hillary. Period.
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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11/5/2016 4:08:03 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/5/2016 3:51:05 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:17:12 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:43:28 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:

Which of his flaws do you find most concerning, in relation to his performance as POTUS ?

His capacity to respond rationally under pressure, and his inexperience with any sort of political endeavors. I mean you could label this as a "political endeavor" but it's less of that and more of a marketing stunt that went way better than expected. He understood who and what he was appealing to and nailed it. I mean it shows his charisma on TV and how well he can work the media and it also highlights his showmanship but that's the limit to it. I honestly think the reason he is running at this point is just to say "I did it". Trump has an alpha male personality and this is him just whipping his dik out and smacking America with it for the sake of pissing on his proclaimed territory and building his own legacy.

When he is actually forced to respond to things that actually require political depth, he typically just spouts off generalized rhetoric with no real substance or understanding of the topic. Refer back to the Triad question a few months ago. If he is pressed on issues, he always falls short. Add that to the fact that he responds with emotion, it's a very bad thing. look at his response when people "tweet" at him. Imagine him suffering criticism from other world leaders, and how he could possibly respond.

I have less of an issue with his actual policies than I do with him as a person.

I find this so ridiculous... even polished politicians make terrible mistakes, Hillary had decades of experience and political training BEFORE she handed the Russians an "Overcharge" Reset Button. Dispassionate leaders are most certainly the ones who will not ever change the status quo. This election is so reminiscent of the Carter election. Do you like the direction this country has been going for the last 8 (or 16 if you assume Obama continued many of the failed Bush policies) years? Then you should vote for Hillary. Period.

It's not ridiculous at all. Most politicians are trained to be tempered. Do they mess up occasionally? Sure they do, but they mess up rarely and if not rarely at least very infrequently. Trump messes up so much that it's basically become normative and his campaign for an entire year has been one mistake after the next, with each blunting the effect of the prior one.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
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11/5/2016 4:08:55 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/5/2016 4:08:03 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/5/2016 3:51:05 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:17:12 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:43:28 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:

Which of his flaws do you find most concerning, in relation to his performance as POTUS ?

His capacity to respond rationally under pressure, and his inexperience with any sort of political endeavors. I mean you could label this as a "political endeavor" but it's less of that and more of a marketing stunt that went way better than expected. He understood who and what he was appealing to and nailed it. I mean it shows his charisma on TV and how well he can work the media and it also highlights his showmanship but that's the limit to it. I honestly think the reason he is running at this point is just to say "I did it". Trump has an alpha male personality and this is him just whipping his dik out and smacking America with it for the sake of pissing on his proclaimed territory and building his own legacy.

When he is actually forced to respond to things that actually require political depth, he typically just spouts off generalized rhetoric with no real substance or understanding of the topic. Refer back to the Triad question a few months ago. If he is pressed on issues, he always falls short. Add that to the fact that he responds with emotion, it's a very bad thing. look at his response when people "tweet" at him. Imagine him suffering criticism from other world leaders, and how he could possibly respond.

I have less of an issue with his actual policies than I do with him as a person.

I find this so ridiculous... even polished politicians make terrible mistakes, Hillary had decades of experience and political training BEFORE she handed the Russians an "Overcharge" Reset Button. Dispassionate leaders are most certainly the ones who will not ever change the status quo. This election is so reminiscent of the Carter election. Do you like the direction this country has been going for the last 8 (or 16 if you assume Obama continued many of the failed Bush policies) years? Then you should vote for Hillary. Period.

It's not ridiculous at all. Most politicians are trained to be tempered. Do they mess up occasionally? Sure they do, but they mess up rarely and if not rarely at least very infrequently. Trump messes up so much that it's basically become normative and his campaign for an entire year has been one mistake after the next, with each blunting the effect of the prior one.

So you are okay with the status quo?
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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11/5/2016 4:42:34 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/5/2016 4:08:55 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 11/5/2016 4:08:03 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/5/2016 3:51:05 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:17:12 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:43:28 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:

Which of his flaws do you find most concerning, in relation to his performance as POTUS ?

His capacity to respond rationally under pressure, and his inexperience with any sort of political endeavors. I mean you could label this as a "political endeavor" but it's less of that and more of a marketing stunt that went way better than expected. He understood who and what he was appealing to and nailed it. I mean it shows his charisma on TV and how well he can work the media and it also highlights his showmanship but that's the limit to it. I honestly think the reason he is running at this point is just to say "I did it". Trump has an alpha male personality and this is him just whipping his dik out and smacking America with it for the sake of pissing on his proclaimed territory and building his own legacy.

When he is actually forced to respond to things that actually require political depth, he typically just spouts off generalized rhetoric with no real substance or understanding of the topic. Refer back to the Triad question a few months ago. If he is pressed on issues, he always falls short. Add that to the fact that he responds with emotion, it's a very bad thing. look at his response when people "tweet" at him. Imagine him suffering criticism from other world leaders, and how he could possibly respond.

I have less of an issue with his actual policies than I do with him as a person.

I find this so ridiculous... even polished politicians make terrible mistakes, Hillary had decades of experience and political training BEFORE she handed the Russians an "Overcharge" Reset Button. Dispassionate leaders are most certainly the ones who will not ever change the status quo. This election is so reminiscent of the Carter election. Do you like the direction this country has been going for the last 8 (or 16 if you assume Obama continued many of the failed Bush policies) years? Then you should vote for Hillary. Period.

It's not ridiculous at all. Most politicians are trained to be tempered. Do they mess up occasionally? Sure they do, but they mess up rarely and if not rarely at least very infrequently. Trump messes up so much that it's basically become normative and his campaign for an entire year has been one mistake after the next, with each blunting the effect of the prior one.

So you are okay with the status quo?

Not at all, I'm also not a fan of Hillary. Will voting for Trump shake up the status quo? Possibly in some sense, but in a way that is net detrimental to the USA. It's putting someone in office that has no idea about foreign policy, that is incapable of responding to anything involving political depth, and that is known for being ill-tempered and acting with aggression in response to even the most basic criticism . His policies are irrelevant. He could have the perfect policies, but when one lacks the character to actually carry the policies through, his political ideologies and goals become irrelevant.
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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11/5/2016 4:44:12 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 7:08:04 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:06:18 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:

All this leads me to the conclusion, that any vote that is not for Clinton, even a vote that is not cast, is a vote for Trump. To that in, I am voting for Clinton with the hope Kaine takes her place

So you are voting for the President in the hopes that she gets replaced by the Vice President? Just wow.

It's a chain

Kaine > Clinton > Trump

So the obvious way to vote is not Trump. If she gets elected it's still better than Trump, and if she does get indicted then we have the best possible choice.

Where's Pence then?
inferno
Posts: 10,556
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11/5/2016 4:47:15 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:
I have been stuck in a type of limbo during this election, and ironically it's not about who to vote for but whether to vote at all. I actively criticize trump for his personal flaws more than his policy. Even if Trump's policies were near perfect, his temperament and demeanor would still be a primary factor in whether or not he should be elected. Most people assume because I dislike Trump, I support Clinton which is poor framing. I dislike both of these candidates to the point I was not going to vote this election. Clinton has had scandal after scandal, and even with the risk of being indicted, I would still vote for her over Trump. Primarily because even if she is indicted, the presidency falls to a man who is still vastly more qualified than Trump to run the country. Part of me hopes she is indicted because it would put Tim Kaine in office and to me that is largely a better choice than both of the people who are running.

I think the choice of this election often is a lesser of two evils argument to which the common response is "the lesser of two evils is still evil". Again this is poor framing due to the fact you have to select one or the other. Meaning both choices are bad so which will do the less harm, is actually a valid way to frame this. The entire vote with your heart and vote for what you feel is strictly an appeal to emotion and if that leads you to vote for a third party candidate, also leads to a waste of a vote. There is virtually no way Johnson or Stein will win this with how the media controls the two party system. To me, a vote for one of them is essentially not voting. It's not making a statement, and if it is making a statement, the statement will have no impact at all on anything. To make a substantial difference, more of the country would have to be on board with it which is not a possibility.

All this leads me to the conclusion, that any vote that is not for Clinton, even a vote that is not cast, is a vote for Trump. To that in, I am voting for Clinton with the hope Kaine takes her place

How can you pick a real estate agent over an experienced politician. She is the most qualified candidate we have ever had. And she has international influence. Knows how to talk to people, and doesn't insult them like a small child.
inferno
Posts: 10,556
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11/5/2016 4:50:13 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 7:17:12 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:43:28 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:

Which of his flaws do you find most concerning, in relation to his performance as POTUS ?

His capacity to respond rationally under pressure, and his inexperience with any sort of political endeavors. I mean you could label this as a "political endeavor" but it's less of that and more of a marketing stunt that went way better than expected. He understood who and what he was appealing to and nailed it. I mean it shows his charisma on TV and how well he can work the media and it also highlights his showmanship but that's the limit to it. I honestly think the reason he is running at this point is just to say "I did it". Trump has an alpha male personality and this is him just whipping his dik out and smacking America with it for the sake of pissing on his proclaimed territory and building his own legacy.

When he is actually forced to respond to things that actually require political depth, he typically just spouts off generalized rhetoric with no real substance or understanding of the topic. Refer back to the Triad question a few months ago. If he is pressed on issues, he always falls short. Add that to the fact that he responds with emotion, it's a very bad thing. look at his response when people "tweet" at him. Imagine him suffering criticism from other world leaders, and how he could possibly respond.

I have less of an issue with his actual policies than I do with him as a person.

He is an unapologetic blowhard, narrow minded bigot, chronic narcissist. And is easy to rattle. He doesn't like confrontation on his conscious. Hillary has mastered the characteristics in Trump we consider to be a weakness.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
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11/5/2016 4:56:25 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/5/2016 4:42:34 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/5/2016 4:08:55 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 11/5/2016 4:08:03 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/5/2016 3:51:05 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:17:12 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:43:28 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:

Which of his flaws do you find most concerning, in relation to his performance as POTUS ?

His capacity to respond rationally under pressure, and his inexperience with any sort of political endeavors. I mean you could label this as a "political endeavor" but it's less of that and more of a marketing stunt that went way better than expected. He understood who and what he was appealing to and nailed it. I mean it shows his charisma on TV and how well he can work the media and it also highlights his showmanship but that's the limit to it. I honestly think the reason he is running at this point is just to say "I did it". Trump has an alpha male personality and this is him just whipping his dik out and smacking America with it for the sake of pissing on his proclaimed territory and building his own legacy.

When he is actually forced to respond to things that actually require political depth, he typically just spouts off generalized rhetoric with no real substance or understanding of the topic. Refer back to the Triad question a few months ago. If he is pressed on issues, he always falls short. Add that to the fact that he responds with emotion, it's a very bad thing. look at his response when people "tweet" at him. Imagine him suffering criticism from other world leaders, and how he could possibly respond.

I have less of an issue with his actual policies than I do with him as a person.

I find this so ridiculous... even polished politicians make terrible mistakes, Hillary had decades of experience and political training BEFORE she handed the Russians an "Overcharge" Reset Button. Dispassionate leaders are most certainly the ones who will not ever change the status quo. This election is so reminiscent of the Carter election. Do you like the direction this country has been going for the last 8 (or 16 if you assume Obama continued many of the failed Bush policies) years? Then you should vote for Hillary. Period.

It's not ridiculous at all. Most politicians are trained to be tempered. Do they mess up occasionally? Sure they do, but they mess up rarely and if not rarely at least very infrequently. Trump messes up so much that it's basically become normative and his campaign for an entire year has been one mistake after the next, with each blunting the effect of the prior one.

So you are okay with the status quo?

Not at all, I'm also not a fan of Hillary. Will voting for Trump shake up the status quo? Possibly in some sense, but in a way that is net detrimental to the USA. It's putting someone in office that has no idea about foreign policy, that is incapable of responding to anything involving political depth, and that is known for being ill-tempered and acting with aggression in response to even the most basic criticism . His policies are irrelevant. He could have the perfect policies, but when one lacks the character to actually carry the policies through, his political ideologies and goals become irrelevant.

You really don't think the status quo can be changed without collateral damage do you? It's totally worth the price.
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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11/5/2016 4:59:42 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/5/2016 4:44:12 PM, Hayd wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:08:04 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/4/2016 7:06:18 PM, RookieApologist wrote:
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:

All this leads me to the conclusion, that any vote that is not for Clinton, even a vote that is not cast, is a vote for Trump. To that in, I am voting for Clinton with the hope Kaine takes her place

So you are voting for the President in the hopes that she gets replaced by the Vice President? Just wow.

It's a chain

Kaine > Clinton > Trump

So the obvious way to vote is not Trump. If she gets elected it's still better than Trump, and if she does get indicted then we have the best possible choice.

Where's Pence then?

Not a factor. The only reason I'm even using this is because Hillary theoretically has a chance to be indicted. Trump does not, he has a shot at being killed. If I were to stick pence it would be after Clinton but above trump
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,748
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11/5/2016 5:30:29 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/4/2016 6:09:15 PM, Mikal wrote:
I have been stuck in a type of limbo during this election, and ironically it's not about who to vote for but whether to vote at all. I actively criticize trump for his personal flaws more than his policy. Even if Trump's policies were near perfect, his temperament and demeanor would still be a primary factor in whether or not he should be elected. Most people assume because I dislike Trump, I support Clinton which is poor framing. I dislike both of these candidates to the point I was not going to vote this election. Clinton has had scandal after scandal, and even with the risk of being indicted, I would still vote for her over Trump. Primarily because even if she is indicted, the presidency falls to a man who is still vastly more qualified than Trump to run the country. Part of me hopes she is indicted because it would put Tim Kaine in office and to me that is largely a better choice than both of the people who are running.

I think the choice of this election often is a lesser of two evils argument to which the common response is "the lesser of two evils is still evil". Again this is poor framing due to the fact you have to select one or the other. Meaning both choices are bad so which will do the less harm, is actually a valid way to frame this. The entire vote with your heart and vote for what you feel is strictly an appeal to emotion and if that leads you to vote for a third party candidate, also leads to a waste of a vote. There is virtually no way Johnson or Stein will win this with how the media controls the two party system. To me, a vote for one of them is essentially not voting. It's not making a statement, and if it is making a statement, the statement will have no impact at all on anything. To make a substantial difference, more of the country would have to be on board with it which is not a possibility.

All this leads me to the conclusion, that any vote that is not for Clinton, even a vote that is not cast, is a vote for Trump. To that in, I am voting for Clinton with the hope Kaine takes her place

I think this is an intelligent analysis. It seems that you have the ability (that is becoming extremely rare) to be non-partisan when making decisions, and you take the responsibility voting and having a say in America's democracy seriously (which is a very good thing).
RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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11/5/2016 6:37:52 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/5/2016 3:16:32 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 11/5/2016 2:11:10 PM, RookieApologist wrote:


Yes, by all means we should vote for the former failed Secretary of State who sold American foreign policy to the highest bidder. Who is cool with killing thousands of unborn babies. Who was near the top of the administration who failed in Syria, Russia, Libya, Ukraine, Iraq, Iran and a host of other places. Who basically calls all cops racist while supporting a legitimately racist organization called Black Lives Matter. Who panders to blacks and minorities for their votes while supporting and enacting policies that keep many of them in low income high crime neighborhoods in exchange for votes. Who uses Beyonce and Jay-Z as surrogates, "artists" who literally bash women and minorities in their songs, but hey they are black so who cares. A lady who belongs to the party of slavery, Jim Crow, and anti-civil rights. Who demands we open our borders to everyone, including those who despise those in the LGBT community, while pandering to that same community for their votes. Who laughed when she got an actual rapist off on a technicality. Who supported a husband who sexually assaulted and "allegedly" raped women. Who supports policies that have doubled our national debt in just 8 years. Oh and who is under two separate FBI investigations, 1 for purposefully setting up a private server in her bathroom, which was recently shown to be 99% likely to have been hacked by foreign governments and 2 for running the state department as an obvious pay for play organization.

Trump sucks, but your candidate is a complete horror show and basically an evil person.

I think a lot of that post is a type of generalized rhetoric that is misinformed. To critique Clinton on abortion in that sense, it would have to be unique to her. There are members of the GOP and Liberals alike that support abortion. Some of the Critiques involving Libya and Syria are fair depending on what the specific critique is. She has openly condemned BLM (at least the extremist). She supports the concept behind BLM which is equality. That is something that everyone should support. I get the point behind Jay Z and Beyonce, but there is virtually no way you can critique her on that ground. Even if the point is valid, the music they push is not as bad as Trump treating women like meat. Also she is using them for marketing, not supporting their ideals. Her border policy is certainly flawed judging from the context of those emails. She was a lawyer, that was her Job in with the response to the child rapist thing. Her husband "allegedly", when Trump "literally" promoted sexual misconduct. The email thing she has already been absolved for and it's only reopened as a political stunt.

I could take the time to write something very similar with Trump and it would be much worse. There are only a few valid critiques in there out of all of that

(1) The Syria , Libya, thing and her foreign policy and border policy ideologies
(2) The email thing which you can certianly bash her for.

I think her biggest flaws are that she is dishonest, and she is more center right than actual left. Ironically the things she should get critqued for are things republicans should like. She is more right than any other candidate that would have had a shot to run. If bernie would have beat her, he is sitting so far left it makes clinton look like a part of the GOP

Agreed, Bernie would quite possibly be a bigger dumpster fire.