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YYW
Posts: 36,305
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11/9/2016 2:02:48 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
It was arrogant to discount the Trump silent majority. I knew it was out there but I didn't think it was this big. I didn't think Blacks would fail so comprehensively to show up to the polls. I didn't think that Republicans would steal North Carolina since, even though they were free to rig the election in their favor now that the Voting Rights Act is gone, I still thought blacks and minorities would show up. I didn't think that stupid, arrogant Never Hillary people would fuck_America so hard in the Midwest, in PA, and everywhere else that mattered.

I was wrong about everything. What I hope is that I am wrong about what kind of a president Trump will be. He picked Mike Pence as his vice president, but at the end of the day he could do anything on gay rights. Trump doesn't like Pence, and picked him I think only out of political tact. Trump hates the Establishment who is primarily associated with homophobia and bigotry, and Trump really could have just played to the base. Maybe. I don't know.

What I know is that if the Republicans repeal the Affordable Care Act, and the Democrats take the legislature and the presidency again in 2020 (which is probably likely, because there will never build a wall, NAFTA is going nowhere, and the like), that's going to lay the groundwork for a single payer system. Trump may even be in favor of a single payer system. He never articulated a policy, but he may rebuke the Republicans who want to repeal Obamacare and replace it with the health care plan of "die quickly."

Trump has, perhaps, the most striking historical position of any elected president, though. He could redefine the Republican party into a populist-libertarian party, rebuking establishment conservatism forever, shaming the idiotic social conservatives and dragging them into 2016. I have no idea. I am still in shock.
Tsar of DDO
Vaarka
Posts: 7,621
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11/9/2016 2:08:13 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 2:02:48 PM, YYW wrote:
It was arrogant to discount the Trump silent majority. I knew it was out there but I didn't think it was this big. I didn't think Blacks would fail so comprehensively to show up to the polls. I didn't think that Republicans would steal North Carolina since, even though they were free to rig the election in their favor now that the Voting Rights Act is gone, I still thought blacks and minorities would show up. I didn't think that stupid, arrogant Never Hillary people would fuck_America so hard in the Midwest, in PA, and everywhere else that mattered.
Lol, I wasn't that surprised that he won North Carolina. I know of maybe three people who said they'd vote for Hillary, and most people either said they were against Hillary, for Trump (which wasn't a whole lot either), or said they'd prefer him to Hillary.

I was wrong about everything. What I hope is that I am wrong about what kind of a president Trump will be. He picked Mike Pence as his vice president, but at the end of the day he could do anything on gay rights. Trump doesn't like Pence, and picked him I think only out of political tact. Trump hates the Establishment who is primarily associated with homophobia and bigotry, and Trump really could have just played to the base. Maybe. I don't know.
My sister said she's skipping out on any LGBT stuff for two weeks and bringing pepper spray with her when she leaves her apartment :/

What I know is that if the Republicans repeal the Affordable Care Act, and the Democrats take the legislature and the presidency again in 2020 (which is probably likely, because there will never build a wall, NAFTA is going nowhere, and the like), that's going to lay the groundwork for a single payer system. Trump may even be in favor of a single payer system. He never articulated a policy, but he may rebuke the Republicans who want to repeal Obamacare and replace it with the health care plan of "die quickly."

Trump has, perhaps, the most striking historical position of any elected president, though. He could redefine the Republican party into a populist-libertarian party, rebuking establishment conservatism forever, shaming the idiotic social conservatives and dragging them into 2016. I have no idea. I am still in shock.
It was definitely fun to watch, even though I didn't support him. I just hope nothing major happens where I live. The drive to school seemed calm enough, save for heavier traffic than usual (but nothing compares with the traffic yesterday).

But hey, for all the 7 year olds, this is their first white president :3
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dylancatlow
Posts: 12,246
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11/9/2016 2:33:10 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
It's not really your fault. It was one of the worst nights for polling like ever. I don't see how that industry can recover from this. They were so hopelessly wrong every step of the way
Fernyx
Posts: 326
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11/9/2016 2:36:24 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 2:02:48 PM, YYW wrote:
It was arrogant to discount the Trump silent majority. I knew it was out there but I didn't think it was this big. I didn't think Blacks would fail so comprehensively to show up to the polls. I didn't think that Republicans would steal North Carolina since, even though they were free to rig the election in their favor now that the Voting Rights Act is gone, I still thought blacks and minorities would show up. I didn't think that stupid, arrogant Never Hillary people would fuck_America so hard in the Midwest, in PA, and everywhere else that mattered.

I was wrong about everything. What I hope is that I am wrong about what kind of a president Trump will be. He picked Mike Pence as his vice president, but at the end of the day he could do anything on gay rights. Trump doesn't like Pence, and picked him I think only out of political tact. Trump hates the Establishment who is primarily associated with homophobia and bigotry, and Trump really could have just played to the base. Maybe. I don't know.

What I know is that if the Republicans repeal the Affordable Care Act, and the Democrats take the legislature and the presidency again in 2020 (which is probably likely, because there will never build a wall, NAFTA is going nowhere, and the like), that's going to lay the groundwork for a single payer system. Trump may even be in favor of a single payer system. He never articulated a policy, but he may rebuke the Republicans who want to repeal Obamacare and replace it with the health care plan of "die quickly."

Trump has, perhaps, the most striking historical position of any elected president, though. He could redefine the Republican party into a populist-libertarian party, rebuking establishment conservatism forever, shaming the idiotic social conservatives and dragging them into 2016. I have no idea. I am still in shock.

I know Trump supports LGBT, so they should be fine unless Trump is assassinated.
Peepette
Posts: 1,238
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11/9/2016 2:41:49 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 2:02:48 PM, YYW wrote:
It was arrogant to discount the Trump silent majority. I knew it was out there but I didn't think it was this big. I didn't think Blacks would fail so comprehensively to show up to the polls. I didn't think that Republicans would steal North Carolina since, even though they were free to rig the election in their favor now that the Voting Rights Act is gone,

Repeal of the Act was a little to late, the damage had been done.

I still thought blacks and minorities would show up. I didn't think that stupid, arrogant Never Hillary people would fuck_America so hard in the Midwest, in PA, and everywhere else that mattered.

I was wrong about everything. What I hope is that I am wrong about what kind of a president Trump will be.

Trump will be a fiasco and the Republican will have a field day in cutting budgets and privatizing everything. The US will look like Kansas in the end. I'm not optimistic.

He picked Mike Pence as his vice president, but at the end of the day he could do anything on gay rights.

Pence was chosen to gain the evangelical vote. Before the pick they were unconvinced of Trumps anti-abortion stance. A purely strategic move on Trumps part.

Trump doesn't like Pence, and picked him I think only out of political tact. Trump hates the Establishment who is primarily associated with homophobia and bigotry, and Trump really could have just played to the base. Maybe. I don't know.

It's really surprising how the God vote and its associated bigotry is still so entrenched. I really thought this country had moved away from this more than it has.


What I know is that if the Republicans repeal the Affordable Care Act, and the Democrats take the legislature and the presidency again in 2020 (which is probably likely, because there will never build a wall, NAFTA is going nowhere, and the like), that's going to lay the groundwork for a single payer system.

Trump may even be in favor of a single payer system. He never articulated a policy, but he may rebuke the Republicans who want to repeal Obamacare and replace it with the health care plan of "die quickly."

Trump has expressed in the past that he's in favor of a single payer system, but that will not happen with a Rep house and senate. With all the spending he wants to do, the wall and the military as the big ticket items, he'll have to yield on this one. He did promise something better. His vagueness on the matter gives him a lot of wiggle room. I see personal health care savings plans trying to make it through. But the obvious result is the poor and lower middle class will be left out. It will not much matter to the Reps, because if you can't afford something it's because you're lazy or on the dole; not deserving of consideration.

Trump has, perhaps, the most striking historical position of any elected president, though. He could redefine the Republican party into a populist-libertarian party, rebuking establishment conservatism forever, shaming the idiotic social conservatives and dragging them into 2016. I have no idea. I am still in shock.

The Republicans will do what they always have done, but will be more unified the next time around. Trump was their accident and I doubt they will allow it to happen again.
Romanii
Posts: 4,852
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11/9/2016 2:43:43 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
There's a Republican Senate, so Trump is probably gonna pick conservative Supreme Court justices, in order to increase his legitimacy among the GOP establishment. It will generate the political capital necessary to push the rest of his agenda.

But aside from that, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by Trump's presidency (or maybe not, since you seem to care about LGBTQ issues above literally everything else... you really are a one-issue voter). Trump will be a largely non-partisan president, as he's already demonstrated the willingness to borrow some ideas from the Democratic platform.
YYW
Posts: 36,305
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11/9/2016 2:56:35 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
Honestly, I'm reevaluating my view about institutional racism. It's not intentional. It's because white people just don't give a shit_about anyone other than straight, whites.
Tsar of DDO
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,106
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11/9/2016 3:12:02 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 2:56:35 PM, YYW wrote:
Honestly, I'm reevaluating my view about institutional racism. It's not intentional. It's because white people just don't give a shit_about anyone other than straight, whites.

https://www.youtube.com...
MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,106
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11/9/2016 3:12:22 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 2:56:35 PM, YYW wrote:
Honestly, I'm reevaluating my view about institutional racism. It's not intentional. It's because white people just don't give a shit_about anyone other than straight, whites.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/9/2016 3:15:58 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 2:02:48 PM, YYW wrote:
It was arrogant to discount the Trump silent majority. I knew it was out there but I didn't think it was this big. I didn't think Blacks would fail so comprehensively to show up to the polls.

If literally EVERY non-white person had voted for Clinton who voted last night she STILL would've lost. POC did their part; more white people showed up than expected, and he did far better amongst (white) women than initially expected. He grabbed a far larger cross section of them than initially expected.

I didn't think that Republicans would steal North Carolina since, even though they were free to rig the election in their favor now that the Voting Rights Act is gone, I still thought blacks and minorities would show up. I didn't think that stupid, arrogant Never Hillary people would fuck_America so hard in the Midwest, in PA, and everywhere else that mattered.

I was wrong about everything. What I hope is that I am wrong about what kind of a president Trump will be. He picked Mike Pence as his vice president, but at the end of the day he could do anything on gay rights. Trump doesn't like Pence, and picked him I think only out of political tact. Trump hates the Establishment who is primarily associated with homophobia and bigotry, and Trump really could have just played to the base. Maybe. I don't know.

What I know is that if the Republicans repeal the Affordable Care Act, and the Democrats take the legislature and the presidency again in 2020 (which is probably likely, because there will never build a wall, NAFTA is going nowhere, and the like), that's going to lay the groundwork for a single payer system. Trump may even be in favor of a single payer system. He never articulated a policy, but he may rebuke the Republicans who want to repeal Obamacare and replace it with the health care plan of "die quickly."

Trump has, perhaps, the most striking historical position of any elected president, though. He could redefine the Republican party into a populist-libertarian party, rebuking establishment conservatism forever, shaming the idiotic social conservatives and dragging them into 2016. I have no idea. I am still in shock.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
slo1
Posts: 4,353
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11/9/2016 3:36:47 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 2:33:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's not really your fault. It was one of the worst nights for polling like ever. I don't see how that industry can recover from this. They were so hopelessly wrong every step of the way

It will survive just fine. The media will lament, but people won't stop predicting just because it failed once. They will try to refine to uncover hidden voters better.
RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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11/9/2016 3:45:15 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 2:56:35 PM, YYW wrote:
Honestly, I'm reevaluating my view about institutional racism. It's not intentional. It's because white people just don't give a shit_about anyone other than straight, whites.

Well that's a pretty racist thing to say. Hypocrite much?
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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11/9/2016 3:47:10 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 2:02:48 PM, YYW wrote:
It was arrogant to discount the Trump silent majority. I knew it was out there but I didn't think it was this big. I didn't think Blacks would fail so comprehensively to show up to the polls. I didn't think that Republicans would steal North Carolina since, even though they were free to rig the election in their favor now that the Voting Rights Act is gone, I still thought blacks and minorities would show up. I didn't think that stupid, arrogant Never Hillary people would fuck_America so hard in the Midwest, in PA, and everywhere else that mattered.

I was wrong about everything. What I hope is that I am wrong about what kind of a president Trump will be. He picked Mike Pence as his vice president, but at the end of the day he could do anything on gay rights. Trump doesn't like Pence, and picked him I think only out of political tact. Trump hates the Establishment who is primarily associated with homophobia and bigotry, and Trump really could have just played to the base. Maybe. I don't know.

What I know is that if the Republicans repeal the Affordable Care Act, and the Democrats take the legislature and the presidency again in 2020 (which is probably likely, because there will never build a wall, NAFTA is going nowhere, and the like), that's going to lay the groundwork for a single payer system. Trump may even be in favor of a single payer system. He never articulated a policy, but he may rebuke the Republicans who want to repeal Obamacare and replace it with the health care plan of "die quickly."

Trump has, perhaps, the most striking historical position of any elected president, though. He could redefine the Republican party into a populist-libertarian party, rebuking establishment conservatism forever, shaming the idiotic social conservatives and dragging them into 2016. I have no idea. I am still in shock.

Sour grapes?
Subutai
Posts: 3,227
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11/9/2016 3:48:14 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 2:02:48 PM, YYW wrote:
It was arrogant to discount the Trump silent majority. I knew it was out there but I didn't think it was this big. I didn't think Blacks would fail so comprehensively to show up to the polls. I didn't think that Republicans would steal North Carolina since, even though they were free to rig the election in their favor now that the Voting Rights Act is gone, I still thought blacks and minorities would show up. I didn't think that stupid, arrogant Never Hillary people would fuck_America so hard in the Midwest, in PA, and everywhere else that mattered.


It was indeed a big surprise to me that there was such weak turnout by minorities. I knew Trump would get a lot of additional votes from the white lower class, but I thought Trump's rhetoric would have pushed minorities to, at the very least, begrudgingly vote for Clinton. But their turnout was lower than the last two presidential elections. NC wasn't a big surprise to me. The biggest was FL. I thought the large minority population there would keep the state blue. PA going red was also a complete shock, given that they've been strongly blue the last few elections, but I guess that shouldn't be too surprising given that there are a lot of white lower class people in PA.
I was wrong about everything. What I hope is that I am wrong about what kind of a president Trump will be. He picked Mike Pence as his vice president, but at the end of the day he could do anything on gay rights. Trump doesn't like Pence, and picked him I think only out of political tact. Trump hates the Establishment who is primarily associated with homophobia and bigotry, and Trump really could have just played to the base. Maybe. I don't know.

I was initially shocked that Trump picked Pence as his VP, but it makes sense as a political move. It was like when McCain picked Palin as his VP (although I ultimately think that hurt him more than it helped). VP's don't have much power anyway, so there's not much danger of him doing anything bad.

I really, really hope that Trump turns down his rhetoric now that he's going to be president. He's said a lot of disgusting things, both in the last 19 months, and before then, and I can only hope that he doesn't continue it as president. Honestly, though, even if he doesn't, I don't think he's going to make the problem any worse. A country that voted for someone like Trump in the first place isn't going to be swayed much further by him.
What I know is that if the Republicans repeal the Affordable Care Act, and the Democrats take the legislature and the presidency again in 2020 (which is probably likely, because there will never build a wall, NAFTA is going nowhere, and the like), that's going to lay the groundwork for a single payer system. Trump may even be in favor of a single payer system. He never articulated a policy, but he may rebuke the Republicans who want to repeal Obamacare and replace it with the health care plan of "die quickly."

It's clear that Trump's going to have problems when it comes to passing the legislation he wants. The main reason he's gotten so far is because he's been able to rely on a silent majority of people across America. But Congress is different, and a lot more establishment than he, or his supporters, are. Trump may be able to spin a failure to pass legislation like the wall as Congress's problem. We may see a huge turnover in 2018 as a lot of incumbent Republicans are replaced by Trump-like politicians. I'm not sure.

I hadn't thought of that about healthcare.. That's not actually a bad thing. I never liked the ACA because I thought it was inefficient and made the health care system even more messed up than it already was. A single payer system would accomplish the things that Obama originally set out to do with the ACA, but with much fewer of the systemic problems. We can only hope Trump thinks the same way.
Trump has, perhaps, the most striking historical position of any elected president, though. He could redefine the Republican party into a populist-libertarian party, rebuking establishment conservatism forever, shaming the idiotic social conservatives and dragging them into 2016. I have no idea. I am still in shock.

The fact that Trump is less of a social conservative than establishment Republicans is certainly a positive. But I don't like the populist spin Trump's put on his platform. I'm aware that that was one of the main reasons Trump got elected in the first place, but I've always had qualms with populism. I hope he doesn't go as far in the populist platform as he's claimed he wants to.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,285
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11/9/2016 4:22:03 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 3:48:14 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 11/9/2016 2:02:48 PM, YYW wrote:
It was arrogant to discount the Trump silent majority. I knew it was out there but I didn't think it was this big. I didn't think Blacks would fail so comprehensively to show up to the polls. I didn't think that Republicans would steal North Carolina since, even though they were free to rig the election in their favor now that the Voting Rights Act is gone, I still thought blacks and minorities would show up. I didn't think that stupid, arrogant Never Hillary people would fuck_America so hard in the Midwest, in PA, and everywhere else that mattered.


It was indeed a big surprise to me that there was such weak turnout by minorities. I knew Trump would get a lot of additional votes from the white lower class, but I thought Trump's rhetoric would have pushed minorities to, at the very least, begrudgingly vote for Clinton. But their turnout was lower than the last two presidential elections. NC wasn't a big surprise to me. The biggest was FL. I thought the large minority population there would keep the state blue. PA going red was also a complete shock, given that they've been strongly blue the last few elections, but I guess that shouldn't be too surprising given that there are a lot of white lower class people in PA.

Trump actually got more of both the Hispanic and Black votes than Romney did. I expected that PA might go red. Philly turnout is critical to the Dems here, and the Clintons' policies hurt Philly (esp. minorities) very badly.

Florida minorities also aren't like other minorities. I don't know why everyone was focusing on the Hispanic votes; Trump did much better among Hispanics than he did among blacks. Their turnout was what was critical.

I was wrong about everything. What I hope is that I am wrong about what kind of a president Trump will be. He picked Mike Pence as his vice president, but at the end of the day he could do anything on gay rights. Trump doesn't like Pence, and picked him I think only out of political tact. Trump hates the Establishment who is primarily associated with homophobia and bigotry, and Trump really could have just played to the base. Maybe. I don't know.

I was initially shocked that Trump picked Pence as his VP, but it makes sense as a political move. It was like when McCain picked Palin as his VP (although I ultimately think that hurt him more than it helped). VP's don't have much power anyway, so there's not much danger of him doing anything bad.

Yep.

I really, really hope that Trump turns down his rhetoric now that he's going to be president. He's said a lot of disgusting things, both in the last 19 months, and before then, and I can only hope that he doesn't continue it as president. Honestly, though, even if he doesn't, I don't think he's going to make the problem any worse. A country that voted for someone like Trump in the first place isn't going to be swayed much further by him.

Don't bet on it; that's his brand, and Trump never betrays his brand. He's not going to stop 'telling it like it is', what he will do is target enemies that are more unifying. For example, he will probably point out how illegal immigrants hurt minorities who live here, and couple deportation rhetoric with promises to redirect the social services to American citizens who deserve them. He will definitely use protecting gay rights as a rhetorical attack on refugees and Islamic immigration in general, which will push the GOP out of its socially conservative stance on that subject. Trump is going to draw heavily on nationalism in his attempts to unite people.

What I know is that if the Republicans repeal the Affordable Care Act, and the Democrats take the legislature and the presidency again in 2020 (which is probably likely, because there will never build a wall, NAFTA is going nowhere, and the like), that's going to lay the groundwork for a single payer system. Trump may even be in favor of a single payer system. He never articulated a policy, but he may rebuke the Republicans who want to repeal Obamacare and replace it with the health care plan of "die quickly."

It's clear that Trump's going to have problems when it comes to passing the legislation he wants. The main reason he's gotten so far is because he's been able to rely on a silent majority of people across America. But Congress is different, and a lot more establishment than he, or his supporters, are. Trump may be able to spin a failure to pass legislation like the wall as Congress's problem. We may see a huge turnover in 2018 as a lot of incumbent Republicans are replaced by Trump-like politicians. I'm not sure.

Trump, with the energized movement that he has created, can definitely threaten to 'Eric Cantor' a lot of the Republicans in Congress. I think that they will eventually play ball.

I hadn't thought of that about healthcare.. That's not actually a bad thing. I never liked the ACA because I thought it was inefficient and made the health care system even more messed up than it already was. A single payer system would accomplish the things that Obama originally set out to do with the ACA, but with much fewer of the systemic problems. We can only hope Trump thinks the same way.

Trump has, perhaps, the most striking historical position of any elected president, though. He could redefine the Republican party into a populist-libertarian party, rebuking establishment conservatism forever, shaming the idiotic social conservatives and dragging them into 2016. I have no idea. I am still in shock.

The fact that Trump is less of a social conservative than establishment Republicans is certainly a positive. But I don't like the populist spin Trump's put on his platform. I'm aware that that was one of the main reasons Trump got elected in the first place, but I've always had qualms with populism. I hope he doesn't go as far in the populist platform as he's claimed he wants to.

Populism is a powerful unifier, which is what we need more than anything. In any democratic system, most people will never be enlightened on all political subjects. We need our pious fictions.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Subutai
Posts: 3,227
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11/9/2016 5:47:14 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 4:22:03 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Trump actually got more of both the Hispanic and Black votes than Romney did. I expected that PA might go red. Philly turnout is critical to the Dems here, and the Clintons' policies hurt Philly (esp. minorities) very badly.

Florida minorities also aren't like other minorities. I don't know why everyone was focusing on the Hispanic votes; Trump did much better among Hispanics than he did among blacks. Their turnout was what was critical.

I'm actually even more surprised that more minority voters voted for Trump. I assumed that they just didn't vote at all. Given Trump's harsh anti-Latino rhetoric, I wasn't expecting so many Latino voters to vote for Trump. Sure, Clinton's not as inspiring as Obama was, but I didn't think that'd be much of a problem given Trump.
Don't bet on it; that's his brand, and Trump never betrays his brand. He's not going to stop 'telling it like it is', what he will do is target enemies that are more unifying. For example, he will probably point out how illegal immigrants hurt minorities who live here, and couple deportation rhetoric with promises to redirect the social services to American citizens who deserve them. He will definitely use protecting gay rights as a rhetorical attack on refugees and Islamic immigration in general, which will push the GOP out of its socially conservative stance on that subject. Trump is going to draw heavily on nationalism in his attempts to unite people.

I do think that, at the very least, illegal immigrants should be either documented and taken through the immigration process if they choose to go through it, or be deported. It makes no sense to have immigration laws otherwise. But Trumps rhetoric has gone for beyond the simple deportation of immigrants who don't want to become legal. He has disparaged Latinos on multiple occasions, and not just illegal immigrants. And while it's also healthy to look at Islamic immigrants with caution, it's not ok to turn away the whole group because some of them are violent. What we need are rigorous screening methods (which we have, to a reasonable extent) for these immigrants, plus a campaign to help them assimilate so that marginalization doesn't become an issue. And these facts are also not excuse to disparage Muslims.

This is the main reason I still can't get behind Trump. Sure, I like his foreign policy, and I appreciate that his social policy is more liberal than the majority of Republicans, but his attitude towards minorities I find to be terrible.
Trump, with the energized movement that he has created, can definitely threaten to 'Eric Cantor' a lot of the Republicans in Congress. I think that they will eventually play ball.

You're probably right. Either way, Congress will acquiesce to a lot of Trump's demands eventually whether in January 2017 or January 2019. The only question now is how much. Big things like the wall and being less of a partner in NATO will be very hard to pass, even in more Trump friendly congress. We'll have to wait to see how it plays out.
Populism is a powerful unifier, which is what we need more than anything. In any democratic system, most people will never be enlightened on all political subjects. We need our pious fictions.

I realize that. But that's not an excuse to find the ideology acceptable. Populism is just that - popular. And the policies that are popular among the population aren't necessarily the policies that should be enacted.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
YYW
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11/9/2016 5:49:05 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
Skep is right regarding turnout. Trump did better with hispanics than Romney, better with women, better with pretty much every demographic.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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11/9/2016 5:50:04 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 3:15:58 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/9/2016 2:02:48 PM, YYW wrote:
It was arrogant to discount the Trump silent majority. I knew it was out there but I didn't think it was this big. I didn't think Blacks would fail so comprehensively to show up to the polls.

If literally EVERY non-white person had voted for Clinton who voted last night she STILL would've lost. POC did their part; more white people showed up than expected, and he did far better amongst (white) women than initially expected. He grabbed a far larger cross section of them than initially expected.

You're right. Shouldn't have gone with Clinton. Even if we did, she shouldn't have gone with Robbie Mook.
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Subutai
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11/9/2016 5:55:58 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 5:51:46 PM, YYW wrote:
There is too much talk about "rhetoric," too. Trump's "rhetoric" is a part of why he won.

I realize that. But that is the main reason I still can't support Trump. He either genuinely believes what he's saying, or he's pandering to the bigots (who apparently comprise a sizable proportion of the population). I personally think he, at least to a certain extent, is the former. But,either way, it's not a great reflection of the current political state.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
Skepsikyma
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11/9/2016 6:01:35 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 5:47:14 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 11/9/2016 4:22:03 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Trump actually got more of both the Hispanic and Black votes than Romney did. I expected that PA might go red. Philly turnout is critical to the Dems here, and the Clintons' policies hurt Philly (esp. minorities) very badly.

Florida minorities also aren't like other minorities. I don't know why everyone was focusing on the Hispanic votes; Trump did much better among Hispanics than he did among blacks. Their turnout was what was critical.

I'm actually even more surprised that more minority voters voted for Trump. I assumed that they just didn't vote at all. Given Trump's harsh anti-Latino rhetoric, I wasn't expecting so many Latino voters to vote for Trump. Sure, Clinton's not as inspiring as Obama was, but I didn't think that'd be much of a problem given Trump.

You can't just think of people as 'minorities'. Blacks, Cubans, Mexicans, and Puerto Ricans are all very different, with different aggregate interests and customs. Hell, you can't even lump all 'blacks' together, or all 'Mexicans'. That's what the opposition has done, they've lumped all of these groups together and screamed that Trump insulted 'minorities'. But Blacks and Mexicans aren't joined at the hip; the intersectional SJW image that people have of black people is not what they are like in general at all.

Don't bet on it; that's his brand, and Trump never betrays his brand. He's not going to stop 'telling it like it is', what he will do is target enemies that are more unifying. For example, he will probably point out how illegal immigrants hurt minorities who live here, and couple deportation rhetoric with promises to redirect the social services to American citizens who deserve them. He will definitely use protecting gay rights as a rhetorical attack on refugees and Islamic immigration in general, which will push the GOP out of its socially conservative stance on that subject. Trump is going to draw heavily on nationalism in his attempts to unite people.

I do think that, at the very least, illegal immigrants should be either documented and taken through the immigration process if they choose to go through it, or be deported. It makes no sense to have immigration laws otherwise. But Trumps rhetoric has gone for beyond the simple deportation of immigrants who don't want to become legal. He has disparaged Latinos on multiple occasions, and not just illegal immigrants.

No he hasn't.

And while it's also healthy to look at Islamic immigrants with caution, it's not ok to turn away the whole group because some of them are violent. What we need are rigorous screening methods (which we have, to a reasonable extent) for these immigrants, plus a campaign to help them assimilate so that marginalization doesn't become an issue.

What we need to do is ban certain kinds of Muslim. Connections to Salafi or Deobandi groups should be an automatic disqualifier. We should also limit Muslim immigration in general to middle-upper class, and stress assimilation to the utmost. There's no reason to import more than we need, and we don't 'need' many at all.

And these facts are also not excuse to disparage Muslims.

Every group deserves to be disparaged on some point. We all have our faults. The fact that people think that it's 'unacceptable' to criticize Islam have lead to the rise of crazy people like Pamella Geller who do peddle conspiracy theories about things like Taqiyya.

This is the main reason I still can't get behind Trump. Sure, I like his foreign policy, and I appreciate that his social policy is more liberal than the majority of Republicans, but his attitude towards minorities I find to be terrible.

Nobody has an attitude towards 'minorities'. They aren't some monolithic group. Plenty of Chinese people are racist as fvck.

Trump, with the energized movement that he has created, can definitely threaten to 'Eric Cantor' a lot of the Republicans in Congress. I think that they will eventually play ball.

You're probably right. Either way, Congress will acquiesce to a lot of Trump's demands eventually whether in January 2017 or January 2019. The only question now is how much. Big things like the wall and being less of a partner in NATO will be very hard to pass, even in more Trump friendly congress. We'll have to wait to see how it plays out.

He'll trade those for things that they want. The funny thing is, Trump will be able to essentially couple with the Democrats to fvck over the Republicans and piss them off. The Senate/House makeup couldn't be better, because they don't have super-majorities. It puts Trump in a great negotiating position, because he's never been loyal to the Republican establishment. Just the Supreme Court nominees will give him a HUGE amount of leverage.

Populism is a powerful unifier, which is what we need more than anything. In any democratic system, most people will never be enlightened on all political subjects. We need our pious fictions.

I realize that. But that's not an excuse to find the ideology acceptable. Populism is just that - popular. And the policies that are popular among the population aren't necessarily the policies that should be enacted.

Yes, they should be. For better or worse, the entire point of the democratic element of our Republic evaporates if people don't actually get a say. When people feel powerless, they lose faith in government institutions, and that is incredibly dangerous because it means that they will not care if those institutions are destroyed by something like a military coup.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
YYW
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11/9/2016 6:02:35 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 5:55:58 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 11/9/2016 5:51:46 PM, YYW wrote:
There is too much talk about "rhetoric," too. Trump's "rhetoric" is a part of why he won.

I realize that. But that is the main reason I still can't support Trump. He either genuinely believes what he's saying, or he's pandering to the bigots (who apparently comprise a sizable proportion of the population). I personally think he, at least to a certain extent, is the former. But,either way, it's not a great reflection of the current political state.

Trump doesn't have genuine beliefs, which is why he's so unpredictable. I do not expect his justices to be horrible. They'll be centrists. Trump doesn't want to fight battles he's going to lose, and he knows (because Hillary won the popular majority) that the scales do not tip in the GOP's favor.

His strengths are in his main street economic appeal, and his anti-elitism. I see him playing to those, and not playing to the stupidity we'd expect from Pence.
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YYW
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11/9/2016 6:12:53 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 5:55:58 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 11/9/2016 5:51:46 PM, YYW wrote:
There is too much talk about "rhetoric," too. Trump's "rhetoric" is a part of why he won.

I realize that. But that is the main reason I still can't support Trump. He either genuinely believes what he's saying, or he's pandering to the bigots (who apparently comprise a sizable proportion of the population). I personally think he, at least to a certain extent, is the former. But,either way, it's not a great reflection of the current political state.

This isn't about social issues, beyond pushing Trump over the edge. His base was formed because of economics. That's it.

It would be a mistake at this stage to write his base off with a broad brush.

I know many, many people who supported him. People who I never imagined would vote for him. People in New Hampshire, Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois, Pennsylvania, etc. They're not racists, bigots, homophobes, xenophobes, or any other species of hate group. They're (mostly white) people who are trying to provide for their families and are having a really hard time doing that in the Obama economy.
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dylancatlow
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11/9/2016 7:19:58 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 3:36:47 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 11/9/2016 2:33:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's not really your fault. It was one of the worst nights for polling like ever. I don't see how that industry can recover from this. They were so hopelessly wrong every step of the way

It will survive just fine. The media will lament, but people won't stop predicting just because it failed once. They will try to refine to uncover hidden voters better.

I don't mean pollsters will literally cease to exist, I just mean their reputation has been destroyed in most people's estimation. The only forecaster who can walk away from this with a shred of dignity is Nate Silver, who at least made a fuss at the high level of uncertainty surrounding the election.
dylancatlow
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11/9/2016 7:34:39 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
The most surprising thing about the exit polls is how well Trump did among minorities. One can't even say he did badly.
Subutai
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11/9/2016 9:42:06 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 6:01:35 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
You can't just think of people as 'minorities'. Blacks, Cubans, Mexicans, and Puerto Ricans are all very different, with different aggregate interests and customs. Hell, you can't even lump all 'blacks' together, or all 'Mexicans'. That's what the opposition has done, they've lumped all of these groups together and screamed that Trump insulted 'minorities'. But Blacks and Mexicans aren't joined at the hip; the intersectional SJW image that people have of black people is not what they are like in general at all.

I don't feel near confident enough to continue the discussion on this topic. I'll just admit that my knowledge of the political leanings of various different demographic groups appears to be mostly incorrect. I will say though that, as a whole, the vast majority of blacks vote Democrat. The problem this time was how many actually showed up to vote. For Latinos it's a bit trickier, and is dependent on their ancestral homeland like you said. And of course blacks and Latinos have different values and thus vote differently.
No he hasn't.

It's practically impossible to deny that he hasn't: http://www.nydailynews.com....
What we need to do is ban certain kinds of Muslim. Connections to Salafi or Deobandi groups should be an automatic disqualifier. We should also limit Muslim immigration in general to middle-upper class, and stress assimilation to the utmost. There's no reason to import more than we need, and we don't 'need' many at all.

I mostly agree with this.
Every group deserves to be disparaged on some point. We all have our faults. The fact that people think that it's 'unacceptable' to criticize Islam have lead to the rise of crazy people like Pamella Geller who do peddle conspiracy theories about things like Taqiyya.

There's a difference between criticizing an ideology and disparaging the people who believe in it, especially when the ideology is a diverse religion. It's one thing to criticize Islam for condoning violence, but it's quite another to disparage Muslims simply for being Muslim.
Nobody has an attitude towards 'minorities'. They aren't some monolithic group. Plenty of Chinese people are racist as fvck.

Well, of course, the term "minority" has different meanings in different countries, and yes, anyone can be racist. But it's unmistakable that, in America, there is a significant undercurrent of systemic racism, and, to a lesser extent, sexism, and that a sizable amount of Trump's base not only believe that that system is justified, but, in some cases, believe that that system should be expanded.
He'll trade those for things that they want. The funny thing is, Trump will be able to essentially couple with the Democrats to fvck over the Republicans and piss them off. The Senate/House makeup couldn't be better, because they don't have super-majorities. It puts Trump in a great negotiating position, because he's never been loyal to the Republican establishment. Just the Supreme Court nominees will give him a HUGE amount of leverage.

I see Trump as a moderate Republican, but I think you're going a little overboard in saying how much Trump is going to go left on a number of issues. The only issues where he's close to left are social issues.
Yes, they should be. For better or worse, the entire point of the democratic element of our Republic evaporates if people don't actually get a say. When people feel powerless, they lose faith in government institutions, and that is incredibly dangerous because it means that they will not care if those institutions are destroyed by something like a military coup.

It's stupid to enact a policy simply because it has more popular support, especially if there's another policy that would work better, even though it doesn't have as much popular support. That is one of the benefits of living in a republic. The legislators are generally in tune with their constituency, but they know when to deviate from it when necessary (although lobbying affects this heavily).
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
Subutai
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11/9/2016 9:44:26 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 6:02:35 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/9/2016 5:55:58 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 11/9/2016 5:51:46 PM, YYW wrote:
There is too much talk about "rhetoric," too. Trump's "rhetoric" is a part of why he won.

I realize that. But that is the main reason I still can't support Trump. He either genuinely believes what he's saying, or he's pandering to the bigots (who apparently comprise a sizable proportion of the population). I personally think he, at least to a certain extent, is the former. But,either way, it's not a great reflection of the current political state.

Trump doesn't have genuine beliefs, which is why he's so unpredictable. I do not expect his justices to be horrible. They'll be centrists. Trump doesn't want to fight battles he's going to lose, and he knows (because Hillary won the popular majority) that the scales do not tip in the GOP's favor.

This is my other problem with Trump (although it's far outweighed by my problems with his rhetoric). Not having a belief structure or, even worse, not having a concrete set of policies in mind, is a setup for failure. I expect his justice choices to be centrist as well, but that doesn't alleviate my concerns as to Trump's muddy platform.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
Subutai
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11/9/2016 9:47:19 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
At 11/9/2016 6:12:53 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/9/2016 5:55:58 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 11/9/2016 5:51:46 PM, YYW wrote:
There is too much talk about "rhetoric," too. Trump's "rhetoric" is a part of why he won.

I realize that. But that is the main reason I still can't support Trump. He either genuinely believes what he's saying, or he's pandering to the bigots (who apparently comprise a sizable proportion of the population). I personally think he, at least to a certain extent, is the former. But,either way, it's not a great reflection of the current political state.

This isn't about social issues, beyond pushing Trump over the edge. His base was formed because of economics. That's it.

It would be a mistake at this stage to write his base off with a broad brush.

I know many, many people who supported him. People who I never imagined would vote for him. People in New Hampshire, Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois, Pennsylvania, etc. They're not racists, bigots, homophobes, xenophobes, or any other species of hate group. They're (mostly white) people who are trying to provide for their families and are having a really hard time doing that in the Obama economy.

I'm sure there were very few people who voted for Trump mostly because of his social beliefs. His main draw is his anti-globalistic beliefs, in stark contrast with almost every other politician. And, of course, a lot of the people who voted for Trump did so because he was the Republican nominee, and believed that his economic ideas were better than Clinton's. But that doesn't negate the fact that a lot of Trump's base are bigots, and that Trump intentionally pandered to them on a plethora of occasions.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
Subutai
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11/9/2016 9:55:12 PM
Posted: 4 weeks ago
Maybe my concerns are silly or overblown. Maybe my problem with election rhetoric is too great. Maybe I place too much emphasis on a candidate's character. All I know is, I just have a hard time supporting Trump, not because of ideological reasons, but for the fact that Trump, at the very least, panders to bigots. Ideologically, I support Trump marginally more than I do Clinton. I strongly agree with Trump's foreign policy over Clinton's, while I more moderately agree with Clinton's social policy over Trump's. Economically, I'm uncertain and mixed. On the one hand, I tend to favor freer markets, but I do think there need to be hard restrictions made on carbon emissions immediately, and Trump calling global warming a hoax doesn't indicate to me that he'll take that concern very seriously, whereas Clinton would follow in Obama's footsteps, in addition to restrictions on a few other market anomalies. But it's exactly this marginal preference that allows issues like character to become important. I don't know maybe I just have misplaced priorities.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.