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ColeTrain
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11/19/2016 4:42:30 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
The minimum wage is a complex issue, and one which has been heavily debated. In regards to Trump being elected and the GOP retaining control in both the House and Senate, it is significantly less likely a federal mandate will raise the minimum wage substantially. Despite the probability of this outcome, what are your thoughts on wages? Should the government raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Would the government be morally justified in doing so? Aside from morality, how would this affect the economy?
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MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,106
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11/19/2016 6:12:37 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 4:42:30 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
The minimum wage is a complex issue, and one which has been heavily debated. In regards to Trump being elected and the GOP retaining control in both the House and Senate, it is significantly less likely a federal mandate will raise the minimum wage substantially. Despite the probability of this outcome, what are your thoughts on wages? Should the government raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Would the government be morally justified in doing so? Aside from morality, how would this affect the economy?

A federal minimum wage is a good thing for the population when implemented properly. A federal minimum wage should NEVER force wages higher nationally, instead, it should set the national minimum at equivalent to the lowest cost of living in the nation.

Remember, a 650 sq. ft. apartment in Manhattan costs as much, if not more than a 5 bed, 4 bath house on 5 acres of fertile land in "back mole" Idaho. Think about what would happen to the economy and businesses in middle of nowhere Idaho if all of a sudden wages were forced to double. Everyone would be forced out of the heartland and middle America and into one of the megalopolis regions of America.

Then for the people who are in bustling cities, here's how they get screwed:

1) John got a 4-year degree in software development and currently makes $25 an hour ($52,000 a year) for his hard work.

2) Bob dropped out of high school and works as a cashier at the local grocery store. Bob makes $8.00 an hour ($16,640 a year) for his laziness and lack of drive.

3) The free market, environmental cost of living, and economic evolution over the past 50 years have determined this wage difference, for the different jobs is appropriate and fair.

4) Federal government changes the federal minimum wage to $15.00 ($31,200 a year).

5) Bob has now almost doubled his earnings overnight, without doing anything to earn it.

6) John went to college and put in the hard work for his degree in order to make around $36,000 a year more than Bob, because John felt the extra work was worth that reward. Conversely, Bob did not put in this work, because he did not feel it was worth it.

7) After the minimum wage hike, John now makes only about $21,000 a year more than Bob.

8) John has lost 42% of his annual earnings in relation to environmental cost of living and compared to minimum wage. John has also gone from making 312.5% of the minimum wage, to now making only 166.6% of the minimum wage, a massive salary gap close.

9) So now the question will be: Does the free market decide this is now fair, keeping John's salary the same while hiking Bob's salary nearly double, and raising the cost of living over the next 10 years to offset Bob's raise in the economy -- this, artificially lowering John's income and decreasing the value of his work. Or, does the free market treat John fairly and raise his salary equivalently, matching him back to 312.5% the minimum wage which is $162,500 a year or $78.13 an hour? The latter of course, would mean the cost of living would be raised over the next 10 years to offset the new incomes, putting us back in the same place, just with higher numbers.

10) The important thing to note in this list here, is that raising the federal minimum age to $15 an hour does not solve the perceived problem of poverty, it simply raises the dollar amount associated with poverty. At the same time, we also see that the only way to close the gap between poverty and middle class with the minimum wage hike, is to keep John's salary the same, essentially lowering his income and devaluing his labor, knowledge and expertise. But when this happens, you also discourage young men and women from spending the time and effort to make it to a career like John's, killing that corner of the labor market within a couple generations.

So, I would put it to you -- after reading the logical outcomes, how do you feel about a federal minimum wage hike to $15 an hour? if you still agree with it, why do a wage hike? Why not just mandate a wage decrease for higher earners such as John instead? The government raises the minimum because it sounds really good. They would never enforce and/or lower the wage maximum, because it sounds horrible and oppressive...but that's what this type of wage increase would be.....a wage cap and decrease.
Danb6177
Posts: 433
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11/19/2016 6:15:17 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 4:42:30 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
The minimum wage is a complex issue, and one which has been heavily debated. In regards to Trump being elected and the GOP retaining control in both the House and Senate, it is significantly less likely a federal mandate will raise the minimum wage substantially. Despite the probability of this outcome, what are your thoughts on wages? Should the government raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Would the government be morally justified in doing so? Aside from morality, how would this affect the economy?

Its not going to happen under trump. I like this explanation tho

Teen wants car for 10K so gets a job for min wage
Min wage gos up to 15 an hour teen is happy
Teen saves 10k gos to buy car
Car now costs 20k....sorry buddy
Bennett91
Posts: 4,229
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11/19/2016 7:12:47 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 6:12:37 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 11/19/2016 4:42:30 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
The minimum wage is a complex issue, and one which has been heavily debated. In regards to Trump being elected and the GOP retaining control in both the House and Senate, it is significantly less likely a federal mandate will raise the minimum wage substantially. Despite the probability of this outcome, what are your thoughts on wages? Should the government raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Would the government be morally justified in doing so? Aside from morality, how would this affect the economy?

A federal minimum wage is a good thing for the population when implemented properly. A federal minimum wage should NEVER force wages higher nationally, instead, it should set the national minimum at equivalent to the lowest cost of living in the nation.

Remember, a 650 sq. ft. apartment in Manhattan costs as much, if not more than a 5 bed, 4 bath house on 5 acres of fertile land in "back mole" Idaho. Think about what would happen to the economy and businesses in middle of nowhere Idaho if all of a sudden wages were forced to double. Everyone would be forced out of the heartland and middle America and into one of the megalopolis regions of America.

Then for the people who are in bustling cities, here's how they get screwed:

1) John got a 4-year degree in software development and currently makes $25 an hour ($52,000 a year) for his hard work.

2) Bob dropped out of high school and works as a cashier at the local grocery store. Bob makes $8.00 an hour ($16,640 a year) for his laziness and lack of drive.

3) The free market, environmental cost of living, and economic evolution over the past 50 years have determined this wage difference, for the different jobs is appropriate and fair.

4) Federal government changes the federal minimum wage to $15.00 ($31,200 a year).

5) Bob has now almost doubled his earnings overnight, without doing anything to earn it.

6) John went to college and put in the hard work for his degree in order to make around $36,000 a year more than Bob, because John felt the extra work was worth that reward. Conversely, Bob did not put in this work, because he did not feel it was worth it.

7) After the minimum wage hike, John now makes only about $21,000 a year more than Bob.

8) John has lost 42% of his annual earnings in relation to environmental cost of living and compared to minimum wage. John has also gone from making 312.5% of the minimum wage, to now making only 166.6% of the minimum wage, a massive salary gap close.

9) So now the question will be: Does the free market decide this is now fair, keeping John's salary the same while hiking Bob's salary nearly double, and raising the cost of living over the next 10 years to offset Bob's raise in the economy -- this, artificially lowering John's income and decreasing the value of his work. Or, does the free market treat John fairly and raise his salary equivalently, matching him back to 312.5% the minimum wage which is $162,500 a year or $78.13 an hour? The latter of course, would mean the cost of living would be raised over the next 10 years to offset the new incomes, putting us back in the same place, just with higher numbers.

10) The important thing to note in this list here, is that raising the federal minimum age to $15 an hour does not solve the perceived problem of poverty, it simply raises the dollar amount associated with poverty. At the same time, we also see that the only way to close the gap between poverty and middle class with the minimum wage hike, is to keep John's salary the same, essentially lowering his income and devaluing his labor, knowledge and expertise. But when this happens, you also discourage young men and women from spending the time and effort to make it to a career like John's, killing that corner of the labor market within a couple generations.

So, I would put it to you -- after reading the logical outcomes, how do you feel about a federal minimum wage hike to $15 an hour? if you still agree with it, why do a wage hike? Why not just mandate a wage decrease for higher earners such as John instead? The government raises the minimum because it sounds really good. They would never enforce and/or lower the wage maximum, because it sounds horrible and oppressive...but that's what this type of wage increase would be.....a wage cap and decrease.

I can agree with the first part about not making $15 a blanket min wage due to varying standards of living. But the rest is purely theoretical. And it's a real disservice in your John and Bob scenario 2 a) imply Bob is lazy working 40 hours a week and b) the fact that now because bob has more money to spend odds are Johns business would revive another customer thus increased income.

It should be raised especially when you consider that the min wage hasn't kept up with inflation. [http://www.pewresearch.org...]

It's been shown that raising the min wage gradually does not harm the econ. The DOL linked this source http://jpe.sagepub.com... as well it's own myth debunking fact sheet. https://www.dol.gov...

Another study that showed no reduction in employment in NJ and PN http://davidcard.berkeley.edu...

Positive results n NY http://news.berkeley.edu...

Generally speaking experts agree it's harmless if done gradually. https://www.washingtonpost.com...
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,306
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11/19/2016 7:27:54 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 6:15:17 AM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 11/19/2016 4:42:30 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
The minimum wage is a complex issue, and one which has been heavily debated. In regards to Trump being elected and the GOP retaining control in both the House and Senate, it is significantly less likely a federal mandate will raise the minimum wage substantially. Despite the probability of this outcome, what are your thoughts on wages? Should the government raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Would the government be morally justified in doing so? Aside from morality, how would this affect the economy?

Its not going to happen under trump. I like this explanation tho

Teen wants car for 10K so gets a job for min wage
Min wage gos up to 15 an hour teen is happy
Teen saves 10k gos to buy car
Car now costs 20k....sorry buddy

Lol more like this....

Min wage goes to 15$...teen gets laid off and a college student takes his job and does 15 dollars worth of work.

Sorry buddy.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,306
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11/19/2016 7:32:39 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 4:42:30 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
The minimum wage is a complex issue, and one which has been heavily debated. In regards to Trump being elected and the GOP retaining control in both the House and Senate, it is significantly less likely a federal mandate will raise the minimum wage substantially. Despite the probability of this outcome, what are your thoughts on wages? Should the government raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Would the government be morally justified in doing so? Aside from morality, how would this affect the economy?

I remember an economist saying if the cure to poverty is a minimum wage, then every 3rd world country would be doing it.

In reality, minimum wage only hurts entry level workers as more minimum wage jobs will come with skill requirements. Kind of like how unions kill jobs by inflating wages to the point that only an elite few are allowed to have those golden union jobs. Man-hours has a market value, not an arbitrarily set price. When we artificially raise that price while the actual value remains the same, then the job opportunities are lost to the more unskilled in the labor pool.
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,036
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11/19/2016 8:40:47 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 4:42:30 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
The minimum wage is a complex issue, and one which has been heavily debated. In regards to Trump being elected and the GOP retaining control in both the House and Senate, it is significantly less likely a federal mandate will raise the minimum wage substantially. Despite the probability of this outcome, what are your thoughts on wages? Should the government raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Would the government be morally justified in doing so? Aside from morality, how would this affect the economy?

You know... the other day I was in a McDonald's near my house. They recently renovated the inside so I was curious to see the changes they made. As soon as I walked in I noticed that the front counter went from expanding across the entire dining hall to being about 1/4th of that length and, more significantly, that in-between the counter and the door were six automated ordering terminals. I even went up to it and placed my order right there on the computer screen, the whole time seeing an employee standing aimlessly at the front counter as two other people enter and start ordering on another automated terminal.

I instantly thought to myself how this is McDonald's solution to a $15 hourly wage. Whether it's going to happen or not, there are already signs of corporations starting to replace their minimum-wage employees with automated systems.

My personal observations aside, my thoughts on the matter are this: 1) It would certainly, and obviously, benefit people who can only find minimum-wage work. 2) It would incentivize corporations to replace their minimum-wage employees, who would suddenly be earning wages nearly double what they're making now in some states, with machines which would, in the long-term, cost them less to maintain.

At the end of the day it's simply the inevitable starting to occur, regardless of if their wages are raised or not. Honestly, I see two paths going forward in terms of job security. Either find a job or career path that puts you in a position that isn't easily replaceable by automated systems, or get a job maintaining or building those automated systems.

As a far-removed side note, I also see something else happening because of this. I think we'll see a further divide occur between those who belong in the "minimum-wage" class and those who are above it. The people in the former class will either better themselves and find a better job/career, or on the flip side will fall even further down the social "ladder". So it could really go either way in the long term but I definitely see the divide growing between social classes due to these automated systems replacing low-wage jobs.
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MakeSensePeopleDont
Posts: 1,106
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11/19/2016 10:51:29 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 7:12:47 AM, Bennett91 wrote:

I can agree with the first part about not making $15 a blanket min wage due to varying standards of living. But the rest is purely theoretical. And it's a real disservice in your John and Bob scenario 2 a) imply Bob is lazy working 40 hours a week and b) the fact that now because bob has more money to spend odds are Johns business would revive another customer thus increased income.


a) I never implied he was lazy working a 40 hour work week. Instead, I stated he was lazy and lacked drive by dropping out of high school and not wanting to put in the time and effort to better himself through education to earn a high paying position.

b) Company A has to double their budget for labor costs. Understanding that labor costs are the highest expense for any company as it is, where do you think that extra budget allowance is going to come from? Product prices will have to be raised, which means the consumer will be the one footing the bill. Product prices get raised, everything else is raised, which means Bob doesn't have extra cash to spend.

It should be raised especially when you consider that the min wage hasn't kept up with inflation. [http://www.pewresearch.org...]


I agree, but it needs to be the individual state's responsibility, not the federal government.

It's been shown that raising the min wage gradually does not harm the econ. The DOL linked this source http://jpe.sagepub.com... as :well it's own myth debunking fact sheet. https://www.dol.gov...

First of all, there is no way you read that "DOL linked" article...it's hidden behind a pay wall...with a $40 per article fee. So there is no way for me to even take a look at it.

Any fact-finding article that the government links to, especially a "scholarly" one, should be free. Ones that demand a fee prior to viewing the materials are not reputable, nor should they ever be counted as accurate. Their goal, just like any other producer of goods, products and services, is to give the customer base what they will find enjoyment out of so they purchase more from the producer and hopefully convince their friends to purchase as well. At the time of "researching", writing and publishing this article, $15 an hour minimum wage federally mandated was the extreme hot ticket, with protests, marches, walk-outs, speeches, etc. demanding this all over the nation starting to occur. This screams money grab.

As for the "Mythbuster" blurb -- without verifiable facts and data, equivalent to what is being proposed ($15 an hour), it's worthless. Anyone can say whatever they want to:

"Republicans keep giving this notion that we're going to take your healthcare plans away from you, nnnnnnn and that's just not true. Iiiif you like your plan, you can keep your plan -- PERIOD." -- President Obama on the Affordable Care Act.

Facts build the truth, not a "mythbuster" blurb.

Another study that showed no reduction in employment in NJ and PN http://davidcard.berkeley.edu...

Dude, this article is from 1992, referencing a minimum wage hike of about $1.00 -- not even close to equivalent.

Positive results n NY http://news.berkeley.edu...


Yeah, OK, go for it. Around 20% (1/5) of the state's population getting a pay raise averaging 23% and there will absolutely no repercussions? Come on man.

Generally speaking experts agree it's harmless if done gradually. https://www.washingtonpost.com...

Well, Wal-Mart decided to get ahead of the curve on this and raised their worker's minimum wage to $12 a few years ago. Google how much profit they have lost since then. Then Google how many stores they are going to be closing, and do some calculations to figure out how many workers will be out of a job. I've done it on two separate threads on this website already. Let's see what you find, then I'll give you the data and articles if you're wrong.

Oh, and since this fight started, fast food restaurants have threatened replacement of cashiers with self-serve kiosks...and have been fronting the capital to research different units available.

Additionally, larger stores like Target have been starting to test fully autonomous robots to take the place of the employees who stock shelves, and have had impressive results. Companies are starting to invest in robotics and artificial intelligence startup companies for R&D into these systems.

CISCO...a massive IT company...has been developing a computerized shopping cart which you log into at the store. As you put items into your cart, it automatically scans them and keeps a running total. Since you have your own account you log into, you have credit cards pre-saved on your account. When you walk out the front door, it automatically charges your credit card on its own. No more need for cashiers and long checkout lines.

So yes, it is a VERY serious deal, and companies have been preparing for it and warning the government since it was first proposed.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,229
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11/19/2016 12:16:10 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 10:51:29 AM, MakeSensePeopleDont wrote:
At 11/19/2016 7:12:47 AM, Bennett91 wrote:

a) I never implied he was lazy working a 40 hour work week. Instead, I stated he was lazy and lacked drive by dropping out of high school and not wanting to put in the time and effort to better himself through education to earn a high paying position.

This is a narrow assumption to make about min wage workers. Especially given the costs of college. Scenarios that are supposed to applied to generalities should not be so normative.

b) Company A has to double their budget for labor costs. Understanding that labor costs are the highest expense for any company as it is, where do you think that extra budget allowance is going to come from? Product prices will have to be raised, which means the consumer will be the one footing the bill. Product prices get raised, everything else is raised, which means Bob doesn't have extra cash to spend.

A cut in profits and modest price increases. Corporations never think that perhaps their workers matter as much as their profits. Especially with companies like walmart and the corporate welfare they receive.

I agree, but it needs to be the individual state's responsibility, not the federal government.

Given the BS of the tipped credit system across the US and the 'race to the bottom' mentality of some conservative states no thank you.

It's been shown that raising the min wage gradually does not harm the econ. The DOL linked this source http://jpe.sagepub.com... as :well it's own myth debunking fact sheet. https://www.dol.gov...

First of all, there is no way you read that "DOL linked" article...it's hidden behind a pay wall...with a $40 per article fee. So there is no way for me to even take a look at it.

It was linked for the abstract. "This paper measures the actual impact of living wage laws using a time-series analysis of employment and business establishment trends in large U.S. cities that have enacted such laws and finds no evidence that ordinances mandating stronger labor standards affect aggregate economic development outcomes."

Any fact-finding article that the government links to, especially a "scholarly" one, should be free. Ones that demand a fee prior to viewing the materials are not reputable, nor should they ever be counted as accurate.

And what do you base this on a paranoid idea that scientists are greedy and compromise themselves for money?

Their goal, just like any other producer of goods, products and services, is to give the customer base what they will find enjoyment out of so they purchase more from the producer and hopefully convince their friends to purchase as well. At the time of "researching", writing and publishing this article, $15 an hour minimum wage federally mandated was the extreme hot ticket, with protests, marches, walk-outs, speeches, etc. demanding this all over the nation starting to occur. This screams money grab.

Well if you can find scholarly articles that say the opposite I'd like to see them. Otherwise this is just a lame excuse to reject the science. The DOL has more links to more studies that say pretty much the same thing.

As for the "Mythbuster" blurb -- without verifiable facts and data, equivalent to what is being proposed ($15 an hour), it's worthless. Anyone can say whatever they want to:

Yea they (the DOL) cite their claims, and refer to many studies in their 'studies' section so nice try.

"Republicans keep giving this notion that we're going to take your healthcare plans away from you, nnnnnnn and that's just not true. Iiiif you like your plan, you can keep your plan -- PERIOD." -- President Obama on the Affordable Care Act.

Lol we're talking about labor, not healthcare. Nice try though.

Facts build the truth, not a "mythbuster" blurb.

It's hard to build truth when you're full of myths that need debunking.

Another study that showed no reduction in employment in NJ and PN http://davidcard.berkeley.edu...

Dude, this article is from 1992, referencing a minimum wage hike of about $1.00 -- not even close to equivalent.

So it's not a money grab at least right? You seem to miss the point that increasing it by a dollar didn't hurt, what about doing it again gradually? Same results over time.

Positive results n NY http://news.berkeley.edu...


Yeah, OK, go for it. Around 20% (1/5) of the state's population getting a pay raise averaging 23% and there will absolutely no repercussions? Come on man.

Key word gradually

Generally speaking experts agree it's harmless if done gradually. https://www.washingtonpost.com...

Well, Wal-Mart decided to get ahead of the curve on this and raised their worker's minimum wage to $12 a few years ago. Google how much profit they have lost since then. Then Google how many stores they are going to be closing, and do some calculations to figure out how many workers will be out of a job. I've done it on two separate threads on this website already. Let's see what you find, then I'll give you the data and articles if you're wrong.

You can save me the time and link where on DDo you posted your data.

But according to this guy Walmart could reasonably increase worker pay by 50% http://fortune.com...

And it should seeing how Walmart benefits from welfare to subsidize their under paid workers. http://www.msnbc.com...

Oh, and since this fight started, fast food restaurants have threatened replacement of cashiers with self-serve kiosks...and have been fronting the capital to research different units available.

They've probably been planning it long before the demand was serious.

Additionally, larger stores like Target have been starting to test fully autonomous robots to take the place of the employees who stock shelves, and have had impressive results. Companies are starting to invest in robotics and artificial intelligence startup companies for R&D into these systems.

CISCO...a massive IT company...has been developing a computerized shopping cart which you log into at the store. As you put items into your cart, it automatically scans them and keeps a running total. Since you have your own account you log into, you have credit cards pre-saved on your account. When you walk out the front door, it automatically charges your credit card on its own. No more need for cashiers and long checkout lines.

So yes, it is a VERY serious deal, and companies have been preparing for it and warning the government since it was first proposed.

Automation is inevitable in these low skill jobs. Those companies would be trying to automate even if there wasn't a high demand for better wages. The market can be a funny thing. Perhaps such a highly automated business would turn customers off, thus making a human quality more in demand. And of course as automation expands more tech support will be needed.

But generally speaking automation poses a threat to many jobs. So it's not just low skill workers [http://www.forbes.com...] Shucks do you know how badly automated cars are going to hurt the insurance and car repair industries? Technology is going to shift many cards in the deck. In a world where people are less important labor wise you either use that advancement to spread the benefits or get rid of the unnecessary. It'll be a scary future if the latter type of thinking persists in capitalism.
Welfare-Worker
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11/19/2016 12:46:28 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
When the minimum wage increases, welfare benefits increase accordingly.
That is one of the unintended consequences.

Minimum wage represents a minimum standard of living.
Welfare benefits represents a minimum standard of living.
They go hand in hand.
Greyparrot
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11/19/2016 5:23:31 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 8:40:47 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:

As a far-removed side note, I also see something else happening because of this. I think we'll see a further divide occur between those who belong in the "minimum-wage" class and those who are above it. The people in the former class will either better themselves and find a better job/career, or on the flip side will fall even further down the social "ladder". So it could really go either way in the long term but I definitely see the divide growing between social classes due to these automated systems replacing low-wage jobs.

That's assuming people can qualify for those jobs. You simply can't make a law that forces private individuals to invest in overpaid, low skilled workers. There has to be an incentive. It is dead certain more unskilled people won't just simply feel "left out"...many of them won't make the cut and will fail to earn these new "golden" jobs.
The only employment options for those people are to be "paid under the table" just like the Mexican migrant workers. Imagine it, American citizens skirting the law because the country couldn't be bothered to come out of the gated ivory tower long enough to see what would happen if all the training entry level jobs were suddenly destroyed....it doesn't have to be this way.
xus00HAY
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11/19/2016 5:52:35 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
While creating a $15 minimum wage, they should also create a maximum wage law that would limit the wage of a company's highest paid employees, and use the money that does not go to the executives to pay the poor workers.
Greyparrot
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11/19/2016 7:44:13 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 5:52:35 PM, xus00HAY wrote:
While creating a $15 minimum wage, they should also create a maximum wage law that would limit the wage of a company's highest paid employees, and use the money that does not go to the executives to pay the poor workers.

Also force investors to hire everyone, or be put in jail.
Devilry
Posts: 465
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11/19/2016 7:54:54 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
It's a really delicate balance, I think. Too high, businesses can't get off the ground. Too low, business can't get off the ground (or not unless they're not just exploiting the people of whatever nation). But a minimum wage is also definitely a must. I mean, I don't know what it should be. Ask an economist.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Devilry
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11/19/2016 8:00:48 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
There's no morality in it either. You don't give everyone 15 bucks an hour because that sounds nice - that's fcking stupid.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Devilry
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11/19/2016 11:51:53 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
You know, I thought about this question a little more while I was out (bored by the Harry Potter movie [eh, it's not so bad]), and I figure it's one fcking impossible question. But so the idea is that you want people to be able to buy stuff, and thusly industry thrives where you are. And in the same vein, you want businesses able to pay workers, but still make a profit off the top - otherwise there'd be no businesses. But it's trickier than that.

And so businesses pay nothing, that means they can't sell the produce, that means no business. Businesses pay a lot, they don't make their profits back, no business. And that sounds fine; there's a sweet spot right in the middle; just find it. But then there's also that the rate of business failure is going to be fcking massive; because, by necessity, the businessman needs to get the better deal; but how can he, when the businessman is always taking a win on the worker - between every business, selling at greater price than the price paid in producing whatever, fcking half of everything ever goes unsold? And probably no business ever gets off the ground, right? That's like just complete economic failure. Essentially, any business can only make back the money it pays out. Or at least without massive failure, but then with massive failure, you've no work. Still economic failure.

And then you're just wondering what the fck. This whole idea of profit hardly makes any sense at all. We're basically left just... failing as hard as we can, that we get the least brunt of the exploitation - some weird fcking sacrificial entrepreneurialism. And then it's just multinationals skipping back and forth between nations, playing on the differing values that people put on their lives, their time; the wealth of the multinationals purely fcking imagined. I mean that's the whole thing. And I suppose they'll prop up industry wherever they choose, working one people for less that they can pay another people more, and out of that the whole fcking thing is theirs - but it is purely imagined. Profit is precarious fcking sht dudes. All we have is trade. Minimum wage? Liable to collapse the whole fcking, diseased, corrupt temple.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Devilry
Posts: 465
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11/19/2016 11:56:52 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
Basically, the American people can't want more than the multinationals have to give you and all the poor as sht countries they exploit. Minimum wage is to ask for a share of the world.

But then actually it's also probably pretty fcking irrelevant, because it's the man setting the prices who holds the key. lol.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Devilry
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11/20/2016 12:01:13 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
I mean, what the fck did I just figure out here?
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Fernyx
Posts: 328
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11/20/2016 1:51:53 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 4:42:30 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
The minimum wage is a complex issue, and one which has been heavily debated. In regards to Trump being elected and the GOP retaining control in both the House and Senate, it is significantly less likely a federal mandate will raise the minimum wage substantially. Despite the probability of this outcome, what are your thoughts on wages? Should the government raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Would the government be morally justified in doing so? Aside from morality, how would this affect the economy?

"When you raise minimum wage then it's going to raise the rents, when it raises the rents you're going to have to build affordable housing, when you build affordable housing you have to tax people to build affordable housing, when you tax people to build the affordable housing people move out of the city, when people move out of the city you have to raise taxes on the people who remain in the city, and this is how you hollow out the economy of a major metropolitan area in the United States." - Ben Shapiro
Hayd
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11/20/2016 2:01:11 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 4:42:30 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
The minimum wage is a complex issue, and one which has been heavily debated. In regards to Trump being elected and the GOP retaining control in both the House and Senate, it is significantly less likely a federal mandate will raise the minimum wage substantially. Despite the probability of this outcome, what are your thoughts on wages? Should the government raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Would the government be morally justified in doing so? Aside from morality, how would this affect the economy?

The problem is that it deters employees from hiring people. Most importantly, teenagers getting jobs. A teenager needs a job at Mcdonalds to pay for his car, but can't get hired at $7 an hour because of the MW so he doesn't get hired, ends up having no job experience when he starts his career. I guess Mcdonalds wouldnt really count as job experience but there are other jobs I just cant think of right now. But this is only seen at above $12 an hour, so do that one. I've never really gotten to researching the MW, but that's what I've been told so yeah
RookieApologist
Posts: 469
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11/20/2016 2:28:21 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
I have yet to see a good argument for raising the minimum wage. Conversely, I've seen plenty of good arguments for not raising it, including several in this thread.

It's ECON 101 that technology replaces labor when wages are raised. Hence, self-checkout and self-ordering kiosks.
Greyparrot
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11/20/2016 2:30:18 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/20/2016 2:28:21 AM, RookieApologist wrote:
I have yet to see a good argument for raising the minimum wage. Conversely, I've seen plenty of good arguments for not raising it, including several in this thread.

It's ECON 101 that technology replaces labor when wages are raised. Hence, self-checkout and self-ordering kiosks.

I am still waiting for the argument to explain why 3rd world countries can't simply minimum wage themselves out of poverty...
ColeTrain
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11/20/2016 4:23:30 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 7:32:39 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 11/19/2016 4:42:30 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
The minimum wage is a complex issue, and one which has been heavily debated. In regards to Trump being elected and the GOP retaining control in both the House and Senate, it is significantly less likely a federal mandate will raise the minimum wage substantially. Despite the probability of this outcome, what are your thoughts on wages? Should the government raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Would the government be morally justified in doing so? Aside from morality, how would this affect the economy?

I remember an economist saying if the cure to poverty is a minimum wage, then every 3rd world country would be doing it.

Indeed.

In reality, minimum wage only hurts entry level workers as more minimum wage jobs will come with skill requirements. Kind of like how unions kill jobs by inflating wages to the point that only an elite few are allowed to have those golden union jobs. Man-hours has a market value, not an arbitrarily set price. When we artificially raise that price while the actual value remains the same, then the job opportunities are lost to the more unskilled in the labor pool.

Agreed.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
ColeTrain
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11/20/2016 4:27:29 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 8:40:47 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 11/19/2016 4:42:30 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
The minimum wage is a complex issue, and one which has been heavily debated. In regards to Trump being elected and the GOP retaining control in both the House and Senate, it is significantly less likely a federal mandate will raise the minimum wage substantially. Despite the probability of this outcome, what are your thoughts on wages? Should the government raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Would the government be morally justified in doing so? Aside from morality, how would this affect the economy?

You know... the other day I was in a McDonald's near my house. They recently renovated the inside so I was curious to see the changes they made. As soon as I walked in I noticed that the front counter went from expanding across the entire dining hall to being about 1/4th of that length and, more significantly, that in-between the counter and the door were six automated ordering terminals. I even went up to it and placed my order right there on the computer screen, the whole time seeing an employee standing aimlessly at the front counter as two other people enter and start ordering on another automated terminal.

Lol I knew where this was going.

I instantly thought to myself how this is McDonald's solution to a $15 hourly wage. Whether it's going to happen or not, there are already signs of corporations starting to replace their minimum-wage employees with automated systems.

Yes. I this is a point that is often overlooked. Technology is advancing and innovating at a remarkable rate. There are plenty of jobs that don't require human intervention any longer (aside from someone manning the programming).

My personal observations aside, my thoughts on the matter are this: 1) It would certainly, and obviously, benefit people who can only find minimum-wage work. 2) It would incentivize corporations to replace their minimum-wage employees, who would suddenly be earning wages nearly double what they're making now in some states, with machines which would, in the long-term, cost them less to maintain.

I fully agree with your second point. Regarding your first, however, who, specifically can only find minimum wage work?

At the end of the day it's simply the inevitable starting to occur, regardless of if their wages are raised or not. Honestly, I see two paths going forward in terms of job security. Either find a job or career path that puts you in a position that isn't easily replaceable by automated systems, or get a job maintaining or building those automated systems.

Lol, yes. Like I mentioned earlier, and army of bots can do the work humans would ordinarily do in some cases, then they just need someone operating the systems which control the bots.

As a far-removed side note, I also see something else happening because of this. I think we'll see a further divide occur between those who belong in the "minimum-wage" class and those who are above it. The people in the former class will either better themselves and find a better job/career, or on the flip side will fall even further down the social "ladder". So it could really go either way in the long term but I definitely see the divide growing between social classes due to these automated systems replacing low-wage jobs.

Yes. I can only see division in highly-skilled vs low-skilled workers.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
ColeTrain
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11/20/2016 4:30:02 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/20/2016 2:01:11 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 11/19/2016 4:42:30 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
The minimum wage is a complex issue, and one which has been heavily debated. In regards to Trump being elected and the GOP retaining control in both the House and Senate, it is significantly less likely a federal mandate will raise the minimum wage substantially. Despite the probability of this outcome, what are your thoughts on wages? Should the government raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Would the government be morally justified in doing so? Aside from morality, how would this affect the economy?

The problem is that it deters employees from hiring people. Most importantly, teenagers getting jobs. A teenager needs a job at Mcdonalds to pay for his car, but can't get hired at $7 an hour because of the MW so he doesn't get hired, ends up having no job experience when he starts his career. I guess Mcdonalds wouldnt really count as job experience but there are other jobs I just cant think of right now. But this is only seen at above $12 an hour, so do that one. I've never really gotten to researching the MW, but that's what I've been told so yeah

Lol. I understand what you're saying. Why does this only happen above $12 an hour?
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,318
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11/20/2016 4:31:48 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 7:12:47 AM, Bennett91 wrote:

Could you respond to the questions posed in the OP? I'm curious about hearing your thoughts on the subject.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,306
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11/20/2016 4:53:42 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/20/2016 4:30:02 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 11/20/2016 2:01:11 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 11/19/2016 4:42:30 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
The minimum wage is a complex issue, and one which has been heavily debated. In regards to Trump being elected and the GOP retaining control in both the House and Senate, it is significantly less likely a federal mandate will raise the minimum wage substantially. Despite the probability of this outcome, what are your thoughts on wages? Should the government raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Would the government be morally justified in doing so? Aside from morality, how would this affect the economy?

The problem is that it deters employees from hiring people. Most importantly, teenagers getting jobs. A teenager needs a job at Mcdonalds to pay for his car, but can't get hired at $7 an hour because of the MW so he doesn't get hired, ends up having no job experience when he starts his career. I guess Mcdonalds wouldnt really count as job experience but there are other jobs I just cant think of right now. But this is only seen at above $12 an hour, so do that one. I've never really gotten to researching the MW, but that's what I've been told so yeah

Lol. I understand what you're saying. Why does this only happen above $12 an hour?

if the minimum wage were suddenly repealed, you can expect a surge in entry level job opportunities along with apprenticeships, interns, and training jobs. This would undoubtedly bite into the for-profit higher education system. By forcing every job to have a "livable wage," the minimum wage law makes training jobs illegal. (unless the employer pays under the table)
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,318
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11/20/2016 4:55:38 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/20/2016 4:53:42 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 11/20/2016 4:30:02 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 11/20/2016 2:01:11 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 11/19/2016 4:42:30 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
The minimum wage is a complex issue, and one which has been heavily debated. In regards to Trump being elected and the GOP retaining control in both the House and Senate, it is significantly less likely a federal mandate will raise the minimum wage substantially. Despite the probability of this outcome, what are your thoughts on wages? Should the government raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Would the government be morally justified in doing so? Aside from morality, how would this affect the economy?

The problem is that it deters employees from hiring people. Most importantly, teenagers getting jobs. A teenager needs a job at Mcdonalds to pay for his car, but can't get hired at $7 an hour because of the MW so he doesn't get hired, ends up having no job experience when he starts his career. I guess Mcdonalds wouldnt really count as job experience but there are other jobs I just cant think of right now. But this is only seen at above $12 an hour, so do that one. I've never really gotten to researching the MW, but that's what I've been told so yeah

Lol. I understand what you're saying. Why does this only happen above $12 an hour?

if the minimum wage were suddenly repealed, you can expect a surge in entry level job opportunities along with apprenticeships, interns, and training jobs. This would undoubtedly bite into the for-profit higher education system. By forcing every job to have a "livable wage," the minimum wage law makes training jobs illegal. (unless the employer pays under the table)

I would tend to agree a minimum wage should stay under a "living wage" to allow for things like you mentioned, particularly training. It's all about productivity.
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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11/20/2016 5:03:38 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/20/2016 4:30:02 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 11/20/2016 2:01:11 AM, Hayd wrote:
At 11/19/2016 4:42:30 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
The minimum wage is a complex issue, and one which has been heavily debated. In regards to Trump being elected and the GOP retaining control in both the House and Senate, it is significantly less likely a federal mandate will raise the minimum wage substantially. Despite the probability of this outcome, what are your thoughts on wages? Should the government raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Would the government be morally justified in doing so? Aside from morality, how would this affect the economy?

The problem is that it deters employees from hiring people. Most importantly, teenagers getting jobs. A teenager needs a job at Mcdonalds to pay for his car, but can't get hired at $7 an hour because of the MW so he doesn't get hired, ends up having no job experience when he starts his career. I guess Mcdonalds wouldnt really count as job experience but there are other jobs I just cant think of right now. But this is only seen at above $12 an hour, so do that one. I've never really gotten to researching the MW, but that's what I've been told so yeah

Lol. I understand what you're saying. Why does this only happen above $12 an hour?

I don't know. Someone just told me and I believe them. Worth looking up though, I'm guessing its just based on research, thus studying only what it is, rather than why it is. But whether we should have MW or not makes the why irrelevent as long as the what exists.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,229
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11/20/2016 5:09:45 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 4:42:30 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
The minimum wage is a complex issue, and one which has been heavily debated. In regards to Trump being elected and the GOP retaining control in both the House and Senate, it is significantly less likely a federal mandate will raise the minimum wage substantially.

Despite the probability of this outcome, what are your thoughts on wages?

To quote Chris Rock "When an employer wants to pay you minimum wage what they're really saying is 'I wish I could pay you less, but the law says I can't.'"

The min wage is a bit complicated due to conservative theory being so intuitively persuasive but not necessarily reflecting reality. Of those that make min wage it actually represents a small portion of workers (3.3% in 2015), so when I hear that it's going to be so drastic to raise the wage I laugh because it's only effecting a relatively small amount of people. [http://www.bls.gov...]

Should the government raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour?

The federal government? Probably not. Standards of living are not the same across states. In Cali and NY perhaps. The fed should probably raise it to $10 an hour to keep up with inflation. [http://www.epi.org...]

Would the government be morally justified in doing so?

The min wage isn't the biggest issue IMO in terms of wealth distribution and morality. There are maters of healthcare and education that could quicker bridge the gap. I personally would like to see an immediate end to the tipped credit system and the IRS taxing tips to boost low wage workers earnings.

Aside from morality, how would this affect the economy?

If you've been reading the links I've been reading my chat with Doesn'tmakesense you'd see that if done gradually it's relatively harmless