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House Pets

Caramel
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1/28/2011 2:03:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I find house pets to be a particularly disturbing aspect of our modern society.

The main reason is freedom. Pets are not allowed very much of it as a rule of thumb in America. People who live in the sticks, where property rights are not as chokingly oppressive, are allowed to let their animals run, but people in the suburbs rarely let their pets outside to roam. Just because you have a small fenced in yard or walk your pet occasionally doesn't mean it is free. Free animals are able to explore the world on their own when they reach adulthood. Free cats learn their neighborhood and cut precise paths through each yard that they pass through; free dogs collect in packs and roam, similar to adolescent children.

The damage caused by this is obvious. Dogs have oddball temperments and can be downright vicious if the owner isn't careful about how confined the dog is. Most dogs nowadays don't spend much time around other dogs and don't develop socially.

Cats are usually fat as sh1t and often never get to see the light of day. Can you imagine waking up every day with absolutely no hopes of ever doing anything outside of the living room?

1) Pets=property
2) property=unlimited
3) unlimited pets -> government intervention to regulate

Without laws restricting pet ownership, these predators could cause noticeable damage to local ecosystems; police must implement laws requiring owners to keep them confined to thier yards.. Once again, we see that capitalism necessitates government, and cannot/willnot ever exist independant of it.

If our system was cooperative, then the neighborhood could be left to take care of its own predatory populations, without top-down executive orders (and pet officers to implement them). I for one would be excited about using packs of dogs instead of police to protect neighborhoods; while people sleep, packs of dogs would be roaming the streets as ever-vigilant protectors of the people. And the dogs wouldn't just show up after you are are violated and write you tickets; they would actually be able to pre-emptively protect you, which is something that is exceedingly rare for police officers and is in a sense not even a fundamental part of their job. Their job is to arrest people who have ALREADY broken the law; any other function you assign them is a product of your own fanciful perspective.
no comment
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/28/2011 2:48:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"Freedom" is meaningless to those without rationality

Packs of roaming dogs to protect your neighborhood is a TERRIBLE idea. They don't protect you specifically from criminals, with careful procedural protections for the innocent. Unless attended by a handler with a firm hand and are well trained to attack only on order, they rip to shreds whoever the humans they are used to happen to be uncomfortable around-- unless they aren't aggressive, in which case they have no ability to protect anyone from anything.

Of course police officer's primary function is to arrest those who have already committed a crime. This is because, like dogs, they can't be everywhere at once, and unlike dogs, they need (AS THEY SHOULD) evidence that something is wrong before attacking.

You could steal my stuff, should I preemptively put a stop to it? Or should I wait until I have reason to show me that you WILL steal my stuff?

Also, "neighborhoods" don't do anything. Unanimous cooperation is impossible.

I've met plenty of friendly domesticated animals. Plenty of people get mauled by wild animals. You best have some serious statistics to show a relationship between animal confinement and animal aggression.

Cats, being nonrational, cannot have their living room confinement compared to that of a human.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
mattrodstrom
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1/28/2011 2:52:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
outdoor/indoor cats have the life :)

when I was growing up my cat would be outside during the day.. eating birds and whatnot...

and then indoors at night..

just scratching the door to let us know what he wants...

dogs definitely get the short end of the stick... though, they too can be ok if the owner takes them out enough...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

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Caramel
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1/28/2011 3:44:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 2:48:53 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
"Freedom" is meaningless to those without rationality

Take any dog, cat, mouse, etc. and strap it down, and you will see quickly how much animals love freedom.

Packs of roaming dogs to protect your neighborhood is a TERRIBLE idea. They don't protect you specifically from criminals, with careful procedural protections for the innocent. Unless attended by a handler with a firm hand and are well trained to attack only on order, they rip to shreds whoever the humans they are used to happen to be uncomfortable around-- unless they aren't aggressive, in which case they have no ability to protect anyone from anything.

Ragnar there weren't always dog officers and strict leash laws. 50 years ago it wasn't uncommon for dogs to roam neighborhoods in packs; and you are assuming the dogs are so stupid that they can't tell you from some random guy passing through. The only thing that makes dogs vicious is property rights-bearing humans: either they are leashing them up or they are training them for their private purposes. Look at the Michael Vick scenario, for crying out loud.

Of course police officer's primary function is to arrest those who have already committed a crime. This is because, like dogs, they can't be everywhere at once, and unlike dogs, they need (AS THEY SHOULD) evidence that something is wrong before attacking.

Dogs CAN be everywhere at once though. That's all they do is hang out and roam the neighborhood! They have heightened senses that are more effective than any policeman's witts or weapons. As far as evidence goes, the dog either knows you or it doesn't. If the dogs of the neighborhood don't know you, then don't plan on showing up uninvited.

You could steal my stuff, should I preemptively put a stop to it? Or should I wait until I have reason to show me that you WILL steal my stuff?

Standing outside your house with a weapon would be your pre-emptive action; however this is not a possibility if you wish to engage in other activities. The dog has already accepted this full-time job.

Also, "neighborhoods" don't do anything. Unanimous cooperation is impossible.

Read up on the New Mexico Acequias. Cooperation is possible without money; the trick is to not set up the system by default to hurt those who help others. With the situation as it is, how could you ever expect to witness much cooperation?

I've met plenty of friendly domesticated animals. Plenty of people get mauled by wild animals. You best have some serious statistics to show a relationship between animal confinement and animal aggression.

They aren't "wild," they are kept by the people of the neighborhood and well-tamed. Statistics! Ha! All you have to do is look at human history MINUS the last 50 years to see how well dogs and cats fare free.

Cats, being nonrational, cannot have their living room confinement compared to that of a human.

The comparison is not totally valid, but nonetheless cats do appreciate the outdoors. Mine is outside running around right now and refuses to come in!
no comment
HatedeatH
Posts: 386
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1/28/2011 4:18:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
wow, you sound like one of those PETA people. F-ck PETA btw.

On another note, I adore cats and would never give mine up for anything.
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Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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1/28/2011 4:21:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 4:18:03 PM, HatedeatH wrote:
wow, you sound like one of those PETA people. F-ck PETA btw.

On another note, I adore cats and would never give mine up for anything.

Dear lord.
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lovelife
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1/28/2011 5:04:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 4:21:10 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/28/2011 4:18:03 PM, HatedeatH wrote:
wow, you sound like one of those PETA people. F-ck PETA btw.

On another note, I adore cats and would never give mine up for anything.

Dear lord.

I smell troll
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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1/28/2011 7:04:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 5:04:23 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 1/28/2011 4:21:10 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/28/2011 4:18:03 PM, HatedeatH wrote:
wow, you sound like one of those PETA people. F-ck PETA btw.

On another note, I adore cats and would never give mine up for anything.

Dear lord.

I smell troll

wow, you sound like one of those crazy republicans. F-ck republicans btw.

On another note, I didn't understand the OP but I feel I am still right.
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Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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1/28/2011 8:16:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 3:44:25 PM, Caramel wrote:
At 1/28/2011 2:48:53 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
"Freedom" is meaningless to those without rationality

Take any dog, cat, mouse, etc. and strap it down, and you will see quickly how much animals love freedom.
No, you'll see its instincts to move. that is all.


Packs of roaming dogs to protect your neighborhood is a TERRIBLE idea. They don't protect you specifically from criminals, with careful procedural protections for the innocent. Unless attended by a handler with a firm hand and are well trained to attack only on order, they rip to shreds whoever the humans they are used to happen to be uncomfortable around-- unless they aren't aggressive, in which case they have no ability to protect anyone from anything.

Ragnar there weren't always dog officers and strict leash laws.
Nor packs of roaming dogs in the streets. What there were were customs by which people kept their dogs domesticated, and wild dogs sometimes had little reason to be aggressive (hence being useless as guards).

50 years ago it wasn't uncommon for dogs to roam neighborhoods in packs; and you are assuming the dogs are so stupid that they can't tell you from some random guy passing through. The only thing that makes dogs vicious is property rights-bearing humans
If this is true, then they are useless as guards.

either they are leashing them up or they are training them for their private purposes. :Look at the Michael Vick scenario, for crying out loud.
Technically that doesn't mean "capitalism." It's compatible with anything but totalitarianism, and some forms of totalitarianism will also tolerate it.

Dogs CAN be everywhere at once though.
That violates the laws of physics.

That's all they do is hang out and roam the neighborhood!
If they roam to point A, they are not at once at point B.

They have heightened senses that are more effective than any policeman's witts or weapons.
Then why haven't dog armies conquered us all?

As far as evidence goes, the dog either knows you or it doesn't. If the dogs of the neighborhood don't know you, then don't plan on showing up uninvited.
In other words, like I said, not protection from crime, but xenophobia, which is a whole different issue, and hardly compatible with your brand of anarcho-huggism.


You could steal my stuff, should I preemptively put a stop to it? Or should I wait until I have reason to show me that you WILL steal my stuff?

Standing outside your house with a weapon would be your pre-emptive action; however this is not a possibility if you wish to engage in other activities. The dog has already accepted this full-time job.
Dogs have to sleep sometime, eat sometime (and be fed full time)....

Read up on the New Mexico Acequias.
That doesn't look like a link to a short work.

"Cooperation is possible without money;
Missing word: unanimous. also missing word: effective. Also missing: why do these people not continue?

the trick is to not set up the system by default to hurt those who help others.
There is no default system. Governments are created, not eternal. And in any case, capitalism is not set up in such a way.

With the situation as it is, how could you ever expect to witness much cooperation?
how'd the situation get to be this way from an anarchic state where everyone can magically get everyone else's cooperation without anyone trying to free ride?

They aren't "wild," they are kept by the people of the neighborhood and well-tamed.
That sounds like, you know, work, which is something that owners have an incentive to invest in, as do, to a lesser extent, tribal chiefs...

Statistics! Ha! All you have to do is look at human history MINUS the last 50 years to see how well dogs and cats fare free.
that's not an argument.


Cats, being nonrational, cannot have their living room confinement compared to that of a human.

The comparison is not totally valid, but nonetheless cats do appreciate the outdoors.
They don't appreciate anything. Though they might display different behaviors as responses to various perceptual stimuli.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
HatedeatH
Posts: 386
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1/28/2011 9:04:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 7:04:54 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/28/2011 5:04:23 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 1/28/2011 4:21:10 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/28/2011 4:18:03 PM, HatedeatH wrote:
wow, you sound like one of those PETA people. F-ck PETA btw.

On another note, I adore cats and would never give mine up for anything.

Dear lord.

I smell troll

wow, you sound like one of those crazy republicans. F-ck republicans btw.

On another note, I didn't understand the OP but I feel I am still right.

Uhh...fail? If that's directed at me I'm not even a republican.
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lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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1/28/2011 9:06:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 7:04:54 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/28/2011 5:04:23 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 1/28/2011 4:21:10 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/28/2011 4:18:03 PM, HatedeatH wrote:
wow, you sound like one of those PETA people. F-ck PETA btw.

On another note, I adore cats and would never give mine up for anything.

Dear lord.

I smell troll

wow, you sound like one of those crazy republicans. F-ck republicans btw.

On another note, I didn't understand the OP but I feel I am still right.

Lol I wonder if I can sig all that xD

Lol I can, I can!
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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1/28/2011 9:12:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 9:04:46 PM, HatedeatH wrote:
At 1/28/2011 7:04:54 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/28/2011 5:04:23 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 1/28/2011 4:21:10 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/28/2011 4:18:03 PM, HatedeatH wrote:
wow, you sound like one of those PETA people. F-ck PETA btw.

On another note, I adore cats and would never give mine up for anything.

Dear lord.

I smell troll

wow, you sound like one of those crazy republicans. F-ck republicans btw.

On another note, I didn't understand the OP but I feel I am still right.

Uhh...fail? If that's directed at me I'm not even a republican.

It was probably meant as a joke.....probably just to play off what you said.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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1/28/2011 9:14:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
We would have to make it like Kevin and Kell for something like this to happen . . . http://en.wikipedia.org...
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Caramel
Posts: 855
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1/28/2011 9:37:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 7:30:14 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Query: why should I care about an animal's freedom?

I apologize for giving the impression that this is about animal's rights, simply for the sake of animal's rights. I am basing my arguments upon the fact that humanity would be happier and healthier without the executives in the public sector controlling how we handle our animals.
no comment
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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1/28/2011 9:42:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 2:48:53 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
"Freedom" is meaningless to those without rationality.

Animals aren't rational...? They seem pretty lucid and logical to me.

Cody - Some good reason to consider the concept of animal rights are the fact that they are conscious, they have thoughts, they have feelings, they experience suffering, they desire "freedom," etc.

I'll be honest - I'm a big dog lover and proud "owner." I've given my dog the opportunity to leave several times but he always chooses to stay :P
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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1/28/2011 9:44:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 9:37:01 PM, Caramel wrote:
At 1/28/2011 7:30:14 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Query: why should I care about an animal's freedom?

I apologize for giving the impression that this is about animal's rights, simply for the sake of animal's rights. I am basing my arguments upon the fact that humanity would be happier and healthier without the executives in the public sector controlling how we handle our animals.

My new roommate watches a lot of Animal Planet. She's a huge dog lover and goes to school for training them professionally and whatnot. Anyhoot she watches a lot of TV shows that show some crazy animal hoarders and other abusive or destructive pet owners. IF you believe animals have rights, then the fact that it's the public sector aside (and government is bad RAWR) it would make sense to expect people to step in and assess the situation.
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Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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1/28/2011 9:57:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 9:04:46 PM, HatedeatH wrote:
At 1/28/2011 7:04:54 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/28/2011 5:04:23 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 1/28/2011 4:21:10 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/28/2011 4:18:03 PM, HatedeatH wrote:
wow, you sound like one of those PETA people. F-ck PETA btw.

On another note, I adore cats and would never give mine up for anything.

Dear lord.

I smell troll

wow, you sound like one of those crazy republicans. F-ck republicans btw.

On another note, I didn't understand the OP but I feel I am still right.

Uhh...fail? If that's directed at me I'm not even a republican.

wow, you are not a republican so you are one of those democrats and/or independents. F-ck democrats and/or independents.

On another note, I didn't understand the OP or what is wrong with my posts, but I still feel I still feel I am right.
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Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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1/28/2011 9:59:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
To OP - I feel great empathy for animals. My mom keeps a Labrador, that in my opinion, lives a horrible life because it stays cooped up in the house most of the day day (because he's too stupid - he'll get hit by a car).

I don't know what a good alternative is. I don't think we have an incentive to give animals rights because there is no opportunity cost to enslaving them (as there is with humans). I guess technology and capital development will make things right.
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CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/28/2011 10:38:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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1/28/2011 10:45:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
My dog is spoiled rotten. Am I a bad person for that? I maintain his weight appropriately, and I make sure he is hardly ever alone. He seems to be quite happy, and the vet regularly tells me he is very healthy. He stays groomed, and his hygiene is closely monitored. I am genuinely interested in an opposing perspective, which would question the true state of my animal/friend.
gavin.ogden
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1/28/2011 10:57:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 9:59:53 PM, Sieben wrote:
To OP - I feel great empathy for animals. My mom keeps a Labrador, that in my opinion, lives a horrible life because it stays cooped up in the house most of the day day (because he's too stupid - he'll get hit by a car).

I don't know what a good alternative is. I don't think we have an incentive to give animals rights because there is no opportunity cost to enslaving them (as there is with humans). I guess technology and capital development will make things right.

So, you don't feel a common energy between yourself and all other organic life? I feel it every day. I use my five senses, and that's all. It's not a feeling I can describe, but in a way, I do feel more alive and free when I am interacting with animals and vegetation. I am not an animal rights freak, but I certainly cherish all life on this planet, which makes it a beautiful gem in the midst of a chaotic universe.
SuperRobotWars
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1/28/2011 11:04:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 9:14:24 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
We would have to make it like Kevin and Kell for something like this to happen . . . http://en.wikipedia.org...

I'm serious . . . the only way we could give them the same ranks as humans is it we translate their language . . .
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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1/28/2011 11:09:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
granted some dog owners are a-holes, but most love their pets and take them out often. they are well fed, played with often, showered with attention, etc. having never owned a dog i find myself consistently shocked at how much energy and attention people actually give their pets. but anyways, you're totally misunderstanding the issue with dogs as property- its not capitalism that keeps them cooped up and on leashes, its population density. those of us who don't like dogs live in the same areas as those who do, and if people just let their dogs roam free we would be forced to deal with them (and their excrement!) all the time. granted in a roundabout kind of way capitalism is what makes such large populations possible but generally thats not considered a bad thing...
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
badger
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1/28/2011 11:13:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 2:48:53 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
"Freedom" is meaningless to those without rationality

Packs of roaming dogs to protect your neighborhood is a TERRIBLE idea. They don't protect you specifically from criminals, with careful procedural protections for the innocent. Unless attended by a handler with a firm hand and are well trained to attack only on order, they rip to shreds whoever the humans they are used to happen to be uncomfortable around-- unless they aren't aggressive, in which case they have no ability to protect anyone from anything.

Of course police officer's primary function is to arrest those who have already committed a crime. This is because, like dogs, they can't be everywhere at once, and unlike dogs, they need (AS THEY SHOULD) evidence that something is wrong before attacking.

You could steal my stuff, should I preemptively put a stop to it? Or should I wait until I have reason to show me that you WILL steal my stuff?

Also, "neighborhoods" don't do anything. Unanimous cooperation is impossible.

I've met plenty of friendly domesticated animals. Plenty of people get mauled by wild animals. You best have some serious statistics to show a relationship between animal confinement and animal aggression.

Cats, being nonrational, cannot have their living room confinement compared to that of a human.

how do you mean they're nonrational? don't use reason..? have you ever had a pet dog or cat?
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Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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1/28/2011 11:22:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 9:37:01 PM, Caramel wrote:
At 1/28/2011 7:30:14 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Query: why should I care about an animal's freedom?

I apologize for giving the impression that this is about animal's rights, simply for the sake of animal's rights. I am basing my arguments upon the fact that humanity would be happier and healthier without the executives in the public sector controlling how we handle our animals.

Didn't answer my question. :P
Cody_Franklin
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1/28/2011 11:23:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 9:42:48 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Cody - Some good reason to consider the concept of animal rights are the fact that they are conscious, they have thoughts, they have feelings, they experience suffering, they desire "freedom," etc.

I'll just leave this, because I think that we both know the direction that this would go if I objected. I'd say that I'm a nihilist and don't buy into the concept of rights, and we would end up making the same arguments we always make when this subject comes up.
Danielle
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1/28/2011 11:25:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 11:09:31 PM, belle wrote:
having never owned a dog i find myself consistently shocked at how much energy and attention people actually give their pets.

I understand. I am one of the crazy obsessive dog owners. I must say though that it's only because my dog is sooo ridiculously awesome (!!!) that he's spoiled rotten and I put so much time/ effort/ money/ love, etc. into him.
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mattrodstrom
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1/28/2011 11:28:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 11:23:58 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 1/28/2011 9:42:48 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Cody - Some good reason to consider the concept of animal rights are the fact that they are conscious, they have thoughts, they have feelings, they experience suffering, they desire "freedom," etc.

I'll just leave this, because I think that we both know the direction that this would go if I objected. I'd say that I'm a nihilist and don't buy into the concept of rights, and we would end up making the same arguments we always make when this subject comes up.

The reason is if you feel bad when the dog is upset.

From a michael Vick conversation I remember you chiming in on...
it would seem that you would.

but Since you're silly... you don't base what you think ought to be done upon the way that you feel about things...

so... that's why you're not for "animal rights"

those others who happen to naturally care about the discomfort of animals... and who Aren't silly.. support granting some "rights" to animals.. to prevent their (and thus Your own) discomfort.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

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Danielle
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1/28/2011 11:29:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 11:23:58 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 1/28/2011 9:42:48 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Cody - Some good reason to consider the concept of animal rights are the fact that they are conscious, they have thoughts, they have feelings, they experience suffering, they desire "freedom," etc.

I'll just leave this, because I think that we both know the direction that this would go if I objected. I'd say that I'm a nihilist and don't buy into the concept of rights, and we would end up making the same arguments we always make when this subject comes up.

Just because you don't believe in morality doesn't mean you don't "buy into" rights. Rights are undeniable; they are man-made concepts (i.e. the law/society says you have a 'right' to life). You might be thinking of the concept of inalienable rights which is obviously debateable. The question is whether animals should have rights (the regular kind) despite not being able to vocalize their wants and needs. Ragnar suggests they don't have rights because we don't/can't get anything out of giving them rights. Meh, I think the conversation is an interesting one. I think there was a thread on it once but I'm signing off and don't feel like looking for it :P
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