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Libertarians Against Immigration

Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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1/29/2011 7:09:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm willing to debate any libertarian on here that holds Hoppe's anti-immigration position.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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1/29/2011 7:25:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/29/2011 7:09:33 PM, Reasoning wrote:
I'm willing to debate any libertarian on here that holds Hoppe's anti-immigration position.

I support open immigration as long as illegals don't receive any public services like schooling, healthcare, welfare, etc.
Reasoning
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1/29/2011 7:27:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/29/2011 7:25:21 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 1/29/2011 7:09:33 PM, Reasoning wrote:
I'm willing to debate any libertarian on here that holds Hoppe's anti-immigration position.

I support open immigration as long as illegals don't receive any public services like schooling, healthcare, welfare, etc.

I support open borders even if immigrants do receive the goodies of the welfare state. Though preferably the immigrants would not receive such benefits.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
HatedeatH
Posts: 386
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1/29/2011 7:29:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm not a libertarian, but I suppose I could say I share similar views on immigration; immigration is great, but just don't be coming simply to receive welfare checks every month. You are expected to be a constructive member of society and get a job.
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SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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1/29/2011 8:59:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/29/2011 8:11:32 PM, Sieben wrote:


Okay and . . .
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TheAtheistAllegiance
Posts: 1,251
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1/30/2011 1:41:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/29/2011 7:25:21 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 1/29/2011 7:09:33 PM, Reasoning wrote:
I'm willing to debate any libertarian on here that holds Hoppe's anti-immigration position.

I support open immigration as long as illegals don't receive any public services like schooling, healthcare, welfare, etc.

This.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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1/30/2011 1:45:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/29/2011 7:25:21 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 1/29/2011 7:09:33 PM, Reasoning wrote:
I'm willing to debate any libertarian on here that holds Hoppe's anti-immigration position.

I support open immigration as long as illegals don't receive any public services like schooling, healthcare, welfare, etc.:
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Yvette
Posts: 859
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1/30/2011 4:58:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Wait, "open immigration", but there's such a thing as an "illegal immigrant"? How does that work?
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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1/30/2011 5:02:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/30/2011 4:58:57 PM, Yvette wrote:
Wait, "open immigration", but there's such a thing as an "illegal immigrant"? How does that work?

You're right, my bad.

At 1/29/2011 7:25:21 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 1/29/2011 7:09:33 PM, Reasoning wrote:
I'm willing to debate any libertarian on here that holds Hoppe's anti-immigration position.

I support open immigration as long as non-citizens don't receive any public services like schooling, healthcare, welfare, etc.

Fix'd
Yvette
Posts: 859
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1/30/2011 5:06:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Alrighty. Just checking. Though I think AtheistAlliance has to answer for it, too.

J. Kenyon--what do you propose as a method for turning immigrants into citizens? Should children who were brought as immigrants into their new country receive benefits? What if it is a matter of life or death, for either case?

Not challenging you, simply probing.
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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1/30/2011 5:40:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/30/2011 5:06:23 PM, Yvette wrote:
Alrighty. Just checking. Though I think AtheistAlliance has to answer for it, too.

J. Kenyon--what do you propose as a method for turning immigrants into citizens? Should children who were brought as immigrants into their new country receive benefits? What if it is a matter of life or death, for either case?:

Obviously in a life or death situation, everyone, regardless of any circumstance, is entitled to life-saving care.

I believe J.Kenyon is referring to entitlement programs like welfare.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
TheAtheistAllegiance
Posts: 1,251
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1/30/2011 9:04:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/30/2011 5:40:43 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 1/30/2011 5:06:23 PM, Yvette wrote:
Alrighty. Just checking. Though I think AtheistAlliance has to answer for it, too.

J. Kenyon--what do you propose as a method for turning immigrants into citizens? Should children who were brought as immigrants into their new country receive benefits? What if it is a matter of life or death, for either case?:

Obviously in a life or death situation, everyone, regardless of any circumstance, is entitled to life-saving care.

I believe J.Kenyon is referring to entitlement programs like welfare.

This.

And, illegal immigrants would still exist because I think they should go through the immigration and citizenship process, register for a SS number, taxes, etc. If they don't do this, they are considered illegal, and until they register and pay taxes, they will not receive welfare, education, etc.
Reasoning
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1/30/2011 10:24:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/29/2011 7:25:21 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
I support open immigration as long as illegals don't receive any public services like schooling, healthcare, welfare, etc.

I support birth but only if the progeny don't receive public services like schooling, healthcare, welfare, etc.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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1/30/2011 10:53:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/30/2011 10:24:40 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 1/29/2011 7:25:21 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
I support open immigration as long as illegals don't receive any public services like schooling, healthcare, welfare, etc.

I support birth but only if the progeny don't receive public services like schooling, healthcare, welfare, etc.

Dude, me too! Unfortunately, that's not about to happen, so I don't see it as a practical policy recommendation.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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1/30/2011 11:05:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/30/2011 5:06:23 PM, Yvette wrote:
Alrighty. Just checking. Though I think AtheistAlliance has to answer for it, too.

J. Kenyon--what do you propose as a method for turning immigrants into citizens? Should children who were brought as immigrants into their new country receive benefits?

Hmm, I changed my mind on the issue after I just read an article showing that illegal immigrants on average contribute more to the total tax revenue than they consume in public services. Still, I'd rather they not become citizens. I'm not a fan of countries, borders, or citizenship in general. In fact, I'd like to abolish the whole "if you're born here, you're automatically a citizen" crap. Wtf? I never chose to be citizen. Now I have to register for the draft and sh!t.

What if it is a matter of life or death, for either case?

That doesn't change anything for me, since I'm against the idea of public services for both citizens and non-citizens alike. Unfortunately, they're not about to go away anytime soon, so I guess illegals ought to receive the same benefits as citizens. After all, they're helping pay for them.

Not challenging you, simply probing.
Yvette
Posts: 859
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1/30/2011 11:22:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/30/2011 11:05:21 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 1/30/2011 5:06:23 PM, Yvette wrote:
Alrighty. Just checking. Though I think AtheistAlliance has to answer for it, too.

J. Kenyon--what do you propose as a method for turning immigrants into citizens? Should children who were brought as immigrants into their new country receive benefits?

Hmm, I changed my mind on the issue after I just read an article showing that illegal immigrants on average contribute more to the total tax revenue than they consume in public services. Still, I'd rather they not become citizens. I'm not a fan of countries, borders, or citizenship in general. In fact, I'd like to abolish the whole "if you're born here, you're automatically a citizen" crap. Wtf? I never chose to be citizen. Now I have to register for the draft and sh!t.

Really? That's interesting, but honestly not surprising. Please link? I can definitely see how that would be true. People who consider themselves "natives" are probably more willing to cheat the system, while it seems that immigrants choose to be there and are going to be more grateful. I also agree to a point with citizenship. Though I personally think it might make more sense to guarantee any minors within the borders (if you must have them) special protection, and allow people of any age or birthplace within the borders (again, if you must have them) to apply for citizenship--ie, taxes and benefits. I don't see the sense or rightness in making citizenship automatic, or in not being able to live within the borders while opting out of citizenship/taxes/benefits. Taxes and benefits are nice, at least imo, but I don't feel forcing them on people is very good. Such a system would allow for general governments but also small anarchist communities, for example.
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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1/31/2011 8:00:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
If immigrants really did have a negative economic effect, you could just charge them up front for their "damages", or put them in a higher tax bracket, etc. There is no good reason to indiscriminately shut out people living on less than a dollar a day.
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