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Affirmative Action is wrong

Extremely-Far-Right
Posts: 248
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1/31/2011 11:31:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Someone tell me why they believe affirmative action is needed. The main problem with affirmative action is that it needs the very discrimination that it is trying to eliminate.

Please...give me reasons why it is ethically needed or needed period.
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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1/31/2011 11:55:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://www.debate.org...
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Extremely-Far-Right
Posts: 248
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1/31/2011 5:07:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Oh really? Well, I mean someone give me a reason why it is good policy to have in our society. (Sorry didn't know there were so many on affirmative action)
HatedeatH
Posts: 386
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1/31/2011 5:10:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I can understand the good intentions behind it, but it just leads to reverse racism.
vardas0antras: If Muhammad is great then why didn't he stop 911 ?
gavin.ogden: He was too busy starting it.
Extremely-Far-Right
Posts: 248
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1/31/2011 5:11:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 5:10:03 PM, HatedeatH wrote:
I can understand the good intentions behind it, but it just leads to reverse racism.

Exactly, except for the part about you seeing the good intentions of it.
Heathen
Posts: 183
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1/31/2011 7:41:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Im against it as well
"Once an object has been seen, it is impossible to put the mind back to the same condition it was in before it saw it." - Thomas Paine
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/31/2011 7:59:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 5:10:03 PM, HatedeatH wrote:
I can understand the good intentions behind it, but it just leads to reverse racism.

What the fvck is reverse racism? It's just racism.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
HatedeatH
Posts: 386
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1/31/2011 8:01:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 7:59:17 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 1/31/2011 5:10:03 PM, HatedeatH wrote:
I can understand the good intentions behind it, but it just leads to reverse racism.

What the fvck is reverse racism? It's just racism.

Most people think of racism as being whites racist against blacks, etc. In this case it would be racism against whites.
vardas0antras: If Muhammad is great then why didn't he stop 911 ?
gavin.ogden: He was too busy starting it.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/31/2011 8:07:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 8:01:13 PM, HatedeatH wrote:
At 1/31/2011 7:59:17 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 1/31/2011 5:10:03 PM, HatedeatH wrote:
I can understand the good intentions behind it, but it just leads to reverse racism.

What the fvck is reverse racism? It's just racism.

Most people think of racism as being whites racist against blacks, etc. In this case it would be racism against whites.

Most people are also pretty stupid.

It's just racism.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Sky_ace25
Posts: 190
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1/31/2011 8:36:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Affirmative Action is like Communism, good in theory but impossible to actually implement due to human nature.
Seriously, Pluto is no longer a planet?
Sky_ace25
Posts: 190
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1/31/2011 8:36:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 8:36:10 PM, Sky_ace25 wrote:
Affirmative Action is like Communism, good in theory but impossible to actually implement due to human nature.

Political theories just reach a dead end when they actually have to make the step into the real world.
Seriously, Pluto is no longer a planet?
djsherin
Posts: 343
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1/31/2011 11:52:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 8:36:10 PM, Sky_ace25 wrote:
Affirmative Action is like Communism, good in theory but impossible to actually implement due to human nature.

No it's not.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/31/2011 11:54:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Affirmative action isn't even good in theory.

Communism on the other hand...

That is debatable.

Though I still agree, human nature prevents it from being practical. Maybe a communist government run by machines would work.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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1/31/2011 11:58:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 11:52:33 PM, djsherin wrote:
At 1/31/2011 8:36:10 PM, Sky_ace25 wrote:
Affirmative Action is like Communism, good in theory but impossible to actually implement due to human nature.

No it's not.

QFT.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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2/1/2011 1:08:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 8:07:44 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Most people are also pretty stupid.

It's just racism.

Reverse racism is racism intended to combat racism.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/1/2011 1:25:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 1:08:08 AM, Reasoning wrote:
At 1/31/2011 8:07:44 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Most people are also pretty stupid.

It's just racism.

Reverse racism is racism intended to combat racism.

*head asplode*
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Extremely-Far-Right
Posts: 248
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2/2/2011 11:20:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 1:08:08 AM, Reasoning wrote:
At 1/31/2011 8:07:44 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Most people are also pretty stupid.

It's just racism.

Reverse racism is racism intended to combat racism.

That doesn't make any sense, since it is still racism in the end. Except for the fact that it is almost always biased racism, such as not general racism but racism favoring a particular party, such as black on white discrimination, and such as affirmative action.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/2/2011 11:50:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/2/2011 11:20:22 AM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
At 2/1/2011 1:08:08 AM, Reasoning wrote:
At 1/31/2011 8:07:44 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Most people are also pretty stupid.

It's just racism.

Reverse racism is racism intended to combat racism.

That doesn't make any sense, since it is still racism in the end. Except for the fact that it is almost always biased racism, such as not general racism but racism favoring a particular party, such as black on white discrimination, and such as affirmative action.

General racism?

Like, "I discriminate against everyone?"
lol
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/2/2011 11:59:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Separate but equal is the way to go. It works for men and women's rest rooms, amirite? lululululo
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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2/2/2011 12:01:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Saying that affirmative action is racism is a strawman. There is nothing racist about recognizing that a large portion of blacks are at a socioeconomic advantage because of past injustice and seeking to remedy that injustice. Affirmative action is discriminatory, and there's nothing wrong with that. Nothing is being said about the intrinsic nature of race by implementing affirmative action, just like nothing is being said about the intrinsic nature of poor people by implementing welfare.

There is no such thing as "reverse discrimination" or "reverse racism". They are utterly nonsensical terms.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/2/2011 12:09:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It isn't a straw man at all. It's racism. Whether it is racism for a good reason or not, it is still racism.

I'm dirt poor, practically homeless, living in a church right now. Affirmative action doesn't help a honkey cracka sucka foo like me get a job.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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2/2/2011 12:16:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/2/2011 12:01:55 PM, Sam_Lowry wrote:
Saying that affirmative action is racism is a strawman. There is nothing racist about recognizing that a large portion of blacks are at a socioeconomic advantage because of past injustice and seeking to remedy that injustice. Affirmative action is discriminatory, and there's nothing wrong with that. Nothing is being said about the intrinsic nature of race by implementing affirmative action, just like nothing is being said about the intrinsic nature of poor people by implementing welfare.

There is no such thing as "reverse discrimination" or "reverse racism". They are utterly nonsensical terms.

Racial discrimination, is racism.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
djsherin
Posts: 343
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2/2/2011 12:42:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/2/2011 11:59:54 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Separate but equal is the way to go. It works for men and women's rest rooms, amirite? lululululo

This.
djsherin
Posts: 343
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2/2/2011 12:51:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/2/2011 11:50:59 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/2/2011 11:20:22 AM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
At 2/1/2011 1:08:08 AM, Reasoning wrote:
At 1/31/2011 8:07:44 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Most people are also pretty stupid.

It's just racism.

Reverse racism is racism intended to combat racism.

That doesn't make any sense, since it is still racism in the end. Except for the fact that it is almost always biased racism, such as not general racism but racism favoring a particular party, such as black on white discrimination, and such as affirmative action.

General racism?

Like, "I discriminate against everyone?"
lol

No, he means racism by Generals. We saw this in play during the American-Canadian War with "Operation Get Behind the Darkies".
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/2/2011 1:17:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/2/2011 12:01:55 PM, Sam_Lowry wrote:
Saying that affirmative action is racism is a strawman. There is nothing racist about recognizing that a large portion of blacks are at a socioeconomic advantage because of past injustice and seeking to remedy that injustice. Affirmative action is discriminatory, and there's nothing wrong with that.:

Affirmative Action is built solely around race. By virtue of being black, people are given preferential treatment. If that's not racism, then I don't know what is.

There is no such thing as "reverse discrimination" or "reverse racism". They are utterly nonsensical terms.:

Fine, then affirmative action is simply discrimination and simply racism. The Supreme Court concurs.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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2/2/2011 2:30:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/2/2011 12:09:19 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
It isn't a straw man at all. It's racism. Whether it is racism for a good reason or not, it is still racism.

I'm dirt poor, practically homeless, living in a church right now. Affirmative action doesn't help a honkey cracka sucka foo like me get a job.

That's not how racism is traditionally defined. If you want to define it like that, I don't really care, but it doesn't mean anything, especially in the context of the OP. The OP implied that affirmative action needs the same discrimination that it is trying to get rid of, which is blatantly false. The discrimination involved in affirmative action is nothing at all like the racism that blacks actually suffer from (which tends to deal with genetic inferiority/irrational beliefs). No one even bothered trying to define affirmative action either, which is a good sign that it's obviously a straw man.

At 2/2/2011 12:16:59 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Racial discrimination, is racism.

Racism: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

I take it that you do not think that the statement "blacks are more likely to have kidney diseases than whites" is a racist statement. If we gave aid to people who suffered from kidney disease, and blacks got more aid proportional to their population compared to whites (but proportional to the rate of disease), I doubt you would say the program is racist. I also do not think that you would say that the statement "blacks suffer more social and economic hardship as a result of social and institutional discrimination" is a racist statement. Yet, when we try to give aid in proportion to the hardship that blacks suffer as a result of discrimination, it suddenly becomes a "racist" program despite the fact that giving more aid to blacks to kidney disease would not. I think that holding the first example as not racist while simultaneously holding the second example as racist is untenable.
kelly224
Posts: 952
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2/2/2011 3:24:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 5:07:33 PM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
Oh really? Well, I mean someone give me a reason why it is good policy to have in our society. (Sorry didn't know there were so many on affirmative action)

It doesn't really register these days, but a generation or two ago it was needed to combat the disparaties in the hiring process of most compannies.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/2/2011 4:38:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/2/2011 2:30:39 PM, Sam_Lowry wrote:
I take it that you do not think that the statement "blacks are more likely to have kidney diseases than whites" is a racist statement. If we gave aid to people who suffered from kidney disease, and blacks got more aid proportional to their population compared to whites (but proportional to the rate of disease), I doubt you would say the program is racist. I also do not think that you would say that the statement "blacks suffer more social and economic hardship as a result of social and institutional discrimination" is a racist statement. Yet, when we try to give aid in proportion to the hardship that blacks suffer as a result of discrimination, it suddenly becomes a "racist" program despite the fact that giving more aid to blacks to kidney disease would not. I think that holding the first example as not racist while simultaneously holding the second example as racist is untenable.

not the same. in the one case, people are getting aid because they have kidney disease. race is just an incidental correlation that has nothing to do with why the aid is being given. on the other hand, affirmative action gives aid to people whose ancestors were probably discriminated against based on their race. race itself is the quality that singles on out for aid, due to its correlation to discrimination historically. not only is there no way to tell if we are actually combating the effects of past discrimination or not, but we are making the assumption "because of their race, person x deserves such and such"- theres no other factor that is relevant to the decision. if the administration of a policy depends on race alone then its a racist policy. your first example clearly does not depend on race alone.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...