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Christian Economics

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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2/15/2011 8:39:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Dear Christian capitalists,

the Bible is pretty clear:

And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil (Luke 6:34-35).

If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you. Take no interest from him or profit, but fear your God, that your brother may live beside you. You shall not lend him your money at interest, nor give him your food for profit (Leviticus 25:35-37).

You shall not charge interest on loans to your brother, interest on money, interest on food, interest on anything that is lent for interest (Deuteronomy 23:19)

Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you (Matthew 5:42)

Who does not put out his money at interest and does not take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved (Psalm 15:5)

If you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor, you shall not be like a moneylender to him, and you shall not exact interest from him (Exodus 22:25)

I was just wondering the rationality behind dismissing these verses. I know that the common theme among Christians is to only adhere to the stuff that is convenient for you, but even those who don't take the Bible literally say the message behind the stories are important. I think the message here is pretty clear... so what's the logic behind ignoring this in particular?
President of DDO
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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2/15/2011 8:51:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I honestly never saw why this was particularly against spiritual values. I suppose it can be used as profiting from someone else' misfortune, but not necessarily so, in fact more often than not it's a investment in one's future. It isn't necessarily greed if it's managed properly, and fairly, and profit in and by itself isn't considered evil.

I honestly think that there must be something out of context that i'm missing, and if there can be proven to be a spiritual, ethical, whatever, reason for considering loans with interest an evil for society, or the individual, i'd like to hear it. If there is something in the context of the time that it was written that i'm missing i'd like to hear that too.

The fact that they'd go around the system and borrow from Jews shows the need for the service. Also, how do Jews reconcile this, since they were chiefly the money lenders for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/15/2011 9:44:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The first century Christian church was communist in nature. Well.. in a hippie communist type way..

Good luck finding a Christian commie today though, they are pretty rare.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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2/15/2011 9:55:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/15/2011 9:44:15 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The first century Christian church was communist in nature. Well.. in a hippie communist type way..

Good luck finding a Christian commie today though, they are pretty rare.

OH not at all. The whole liberation theology movement is still quite alive in the Catholic church. Unless you don't consider Catholics Christians, as many Christians don't. I think if you went to some of the black churches in the inner city you'd pretty much hear some very communist like jargon as well.
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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2/15/2011 9:55:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/15/2011 8:51:14 AM, innomen wrote:
I honestly never saw why this was particularly against spiritual values. I suppose it can be used as profiting from someone else' misfortune, but not necessarily so, in fact more often than not it's a investment in one's future. It isn't necessarily greed if it's managed properly, and fairly, and profit in and by itself isn't considered evil.

I honestly think that there must be something out of context that i'm missing, and if there can be proven to be a spiritual, ethical, whatever, reason for considering loans with interest an evil for society, or the individual, i'd like to hear it. If there is something in the context of the time that it was written that i'm missing i'd like to hear that too.

The fact that they'd go around the system and borrow from Jews shows the need for the service. Also, how do Jews reconcile this, since they were chiefly the money lenders for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

Aren't these passages from the NT? Jews don't recognize the NT. Also, Jews are still very much in the business of money lending, at least in my family and our family friends.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/15/2011 9:57:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/15/2011 9:44:15 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The first century Christian church was communist in nature. Well.. in a hippie communist type way..

Good luck finding a Christian commie today though, they are pretty rare.

I have come across a Christian commie before. He was shunned by other commies though since most of them are militant atheists.
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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2/15/2011 9:59:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/15/2011 9:55:45 AM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 2/15/2011 8:51:14 AM, innomen wrote:
I honestly never saw why this was particularly against spiritual values. I suppose it can be used as profiting from someone else' misfortune, but not necessarily so, in fact more often than not it's a investment in one's future. It isn't necessarily greed if it's managed properly, and fairly, and profit in and by itself isn't considered evil.

I honestly think that there must be something out of context that i'm missing, and if there can be proven to be a spiritual, ethical, whatever, reason for considering loans with interest an evil for society, or the individual, i'd like to hear it. If there is something in the context of the time that it was written that i'm missing i'd like to hear that too.

The fact that they'd go around the system and borrow from Jews shows the need for the service. Also, how do Jews reconcile this, since they were chiefly the money lenders for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

Aren't these passages from the NT? Jews don't recognize the NT. Also, Jews are still very much in the business of money lending, at least in my family and our family friends.

To clarify, I was speaking of the NT verses, not the OT. It seems that the context is a little skewed on both, though.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/15/2011 10:03:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/15/2011 9:55:13 AM, innomen wrote:
At 2/15/2011 9:44:15 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The first century Christian church was communist in nature. Well.. in a hippie communist type way..

Good luck finding a Christian commie today though, they are pretty rare.

OH not at all. The whole liberation theology movement is still quite alive in the Catholic church. Unless you don't consider Catholics Christians, as many Christians don't. I think if you went to some of the black churches in the inner city you'd pretty much hear some very communist like jargon as well.

I can't stand inner city black churches. Their worship services are good, but when it comes to the actual preaching, all that yelling and drama makes me uncomfortable. That is the point of them though, most of them(at least in Chicago) are trying to reach out to those who "are not saved" by telling them what miserable wastes of sh!t they are.

While the church I live in skips the whole miserable waste of sh!t part, the preaching style is very similar.. Lots of yelling, sweaty foreheads, and speaking in tongues.

I can't stand the church I live in either, so I usually hide upstairs.. Where.. it honestly sounds like a bunch of people dancing around a fire while beating drums and screaming in gibberish.

Kind of sounds like this, but with louder yelling.

http://www.newgrounds.com...

>.>
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/15/2011 10:05:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ok, Christian communists are probably not as rare as I think. I used to be one, and I get the impression that the preacher here is too.

Whenever we talk about it, we end up joking about how we are communists.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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2/15/2011 10:08:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/15/2011 9:55:45 AM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 2/15/2011 8:51:14 AM, innomen wrote:
I honestly never saw why this was particularly against spiritual values. I suppose it can be used as profiting from someone else' misfortune, but not necessarily so, in fact more often than not it's a investment in one's future. It isn't necessarily greed if it's managed properly, and fairly, and profit in and by itself isn't considered evil.

I honestly think that there must be something out of context that i'm missing, and if there can be proven to be a spiritual, ethical, whatever, reason for considering loans with interest an evil for society, or the individual, i'd like to hear it. If there is something in the context of the time that it was written that i'm missing i'd like to hear that too.

The fact that they'd go around the system and borrow from Jews shows the need for the service. Also, how do Jews reconcile this, since they were chiefly the money lenders for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

Aren't these passages from the NT? Jews don't recognize the NT. Also, Jews are still very much in the business of money lending, at least in my family and our family friends.

Of the 6 referenced 4 are OT.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/15/2011 2:20:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/15/2011 8:39:13 AM, theLwerd wrote:
so what's the logic behind ignoring this in particular?
Cowardice. Believe in God and stand by it, or admit that you fear people who disagree with you. The verses are rational (except those speaking against profit), and I wish to grasp why Christians do not use logic to defend these verses.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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2/15/2011 7:24:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/15/2011 8:39:13 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Dear Christian capitalists,

the Bible is pretty clear:

(I removed some stuff here)

I was just wondering the rationality behind dismissing these verses. I know that the common theme among Christians is to only adhere to the stuff that is convenient for you, but even those who don't take the Bible literally say the message behind the stories are important. I think the message here is pretty clear... so what's the logic behind ignoring this in particular?

You forgot the most important verse of all:

When findest thou opportune for gains, readest thou not into thine holy book, but exploitest thou thy neighbor, that thy tithe may be fruitful and multiply.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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2/15/2011 10:14:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/15/2011 8:39:13 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Dear Christian capitalists,

the Bible is pretty clear:

And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil (Luke 6:34-35).

If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you. Take no interest from him or profit, but fear your God, that your brother may live beside you. You shall not lend him your money at interest, nor give him your food for profit (Leviticus 25:35-37).

You shall not charge interest on loans to your brother, interest on money, interest on food, interest on anything that is lent for interest (Deuteronomy 23:19)

Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you (Matthew 5:42)

Who does not put out his money at interest and does not take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved (Psalm 15:5)

If you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor, you shall not be like a moneylender to him, and you shall not exact interest from him (Exodus 22:25)

I was just wondering the rationality behind dismissing these verses. I know that the common theme among Christians is to only adhere to the stuff that is convenient for you, but even those who don't take the Bible literally say the message behind the stories are important. I think the message here is pretty clear... so what's the logic behind ignoring this in particular?

I'm afraid you missed the context of these verses. It is speaking about loaning money to people that are in desperate need of something, for profit.

Money and money lending has always and will always be apart of the majority of any civilization. It is a necessary for us to keep moving ahead.

I borrowed money to by the house I'm in right now. I got a good rate that wasn't really determined by the people that lent me the money. And it was a business transaction at that. I agreed to pay said amount in interest, it's not like I didn't have a choice and they took advantage of that. THAT is the context of these verses. I have sold several items to in laws that they paid for in payments that I requested no interest. I do it all the time with friends and co workers. They say "I will repay" and I say" don't worry about it". Outside of those situations it is business, that has always been there and always will.

This is a fallen world, we do the best we can for others while we are here. IN the end, that is all we an do.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/15/2011 10:16:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
so what's the logic behind ignoring this in particular?:

Pure ignorance. Most Christians have no clue that's even in the bible.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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2/16/2011 10:05:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/15/2011 8:39:13 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Dear Christian capitalists,

the Bible is pretty clear:

And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil (Luke 6:34-35).

If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you. Take no interest from him or profit, but fear your God, that your brother may live beside you. You shall not lend him your money at interest, nor give him your food for profit (Leviticus 25:35-37).

You shall not charge interest on loans to your brother, interest on money, interest on food, interest on anything that is lent for interest (Deuteronomy 23:19)

Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you (Matthew 5:42)

Who does not put out his money at interest and does not take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved (Psalm 15:5)

If you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor, you shall not be like a moneylender to him, and you shall not exact interest from him (Exodus 22:25)

I was just wondering the rationality behind dismissing these verses. I know that the common theme among Christians is to only adhere to the stuff that is convenient for you, but even those who don't take the Bible literally say the message behind the stories are important. I think the message here is pretty clear... so what's the logic behind ignoring this in particular?

I personally do give to anyone who asks.. but I don't worry about what others do..

Whenever we point the finger and say " Bad! " to others we are really saying " Good! " (relatively speaking) about ourselves.. (see GEN3)
The Cross.. the Cross.