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Should churches be allowed to discriminate?

Extremely-Far-Right
Posts: 248
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2/17/2011 7:28:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The question I have for many people here is, should churches, mosques, synagogues, and other religious organizations and/or buildings have the right to discriminate based on whatever reason they see fit? For example, on race, ethnicity, gender, physically and/or mentally disabled people? I recently read an article about this, and I found it quite interesting. What do people here think? Justifiable or Unjustifiable? (I didn't include religion as a discrimination in this case, given the scenario)
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/17/2011 11:02:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yes, they should be allowed.

Let natural selection weed that church out.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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2/17/2011 11:49:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Of course they should. They are private associations, all private associations should be allowed total freedom in this regard.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Extremely-Far-Right
Posts: 248
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2/17/2011 1:29:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I recently read a TIME maganize article saying how some churches are attempting to 'override' the racial gap in the churches. I find this interesting considering that even if you are the same religion, different races tend to worship in different ways. For example, African Americans tend to shout and sing a lot while in church. While European Americans are much more quiet about the way they go about worshiping. If one were to try to breach the racial gap, wouldn't this cause escalations between the various worshiping methods?
Cerebral_Narcissist
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2/17/2011 1:33:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 1:29:47 PM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
I recently read a TIME maganize article saying how some churches are attempting to 'override' the racial gap in the churches. I find this interesting considering that even if you are the same religion, different races tend to worship in different ways. For example, African Americans tend to shout and sing a lot while in church. While European Americans are much more quiet about the way they go about worshiping. If one were to try to breach the racial gap, wouldn't this cause escalations between the various worshiping methods?

It's personal freedom isn't it? Does an african-american want to go to a church in which white people are excluded, one in which they are permitted but don't for whatever reason attend, one which combines african and european styles, or a European one? It's up to them. It's up to me who I invite into my house, it's up to a Priest who he invites into his Church.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/17/2011 2:00:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 7:28:37 AM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
The question I have for many people here is, should churches, mosques, synagogues, and other religious organizations and/or buildings have the right to discriminate based on whatever reason they see fit? For example, on race, ethnicity, gender, physically and/or mentally disabled people?:

Yes, they reserve that right to discriminate for any and all reasons, and people have a right to protest about it. That's how freedom works.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/17/2011 2:44:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 2:00:20 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 2/17/2011 7:28:37 AM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
The question I have for many people here is, should churches, mosques, synagogues, and other religious organizations and/or buildings have the right to discriminate based on whatever reason they see fit? For example, on race, ethnicity, gender, physically and/or mentally disabled people?:

Yes, they reserve that right to discriminate for any and all reasons, and people have a right to protest about it. That's how freedom works.

I'm pretty sure discrimination is antithetical to freedom, not the other way around. Just look at the Civil Rights era when discrimination was openly accepted. I don't think of freedom when I think of the Civil Rights era.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/17/2011 5:21:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 2:44:35 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/17/2011 2:00:20 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 2/17/2011 7:28:37 AM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
The question I have for many people here is, should churches, mosques, synagogues, and other religious organizations and/or buildings have the right to discriminate based on whatever reason they see fit? For example, on race, ethnicity, gender, physically and/or mentally disabled people?:

Yes, they reserve that right to discriminate for any and all reasons, and people have a right to protest about it. That's how freedom works.

I'm pretty sure discrimination is antithetical to freedom, not the other way around. Just look at the Civil Rights era when discrimination was openly accepted. I don't think of freedom when I think of the Civil Rights era.

when the Govt. discriminates... it's not freedom...

However... your being a libertarian.. I would think you would support Joe's right to exclude who he would from entering his house...

and the same Even If he's selling the cookies he just made inside at his kitchen counter.

or.. if he's selling burgers in the shack he owns at the end of the block..

or full sit-down dining at his building across the way...

if it's Your property... why should other people be able to determine who gets to use it??
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mistavega
Posts: 30
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2/17/2011 5:54:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'd say no, because it goes againts the principles in their doctrine. I don't think I would want to be part of a church that doesn't even follow what they preach.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/17/2011 7:04:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 5:21:21 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 2/17/2011 2:44:35 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/17/2011 2:00:20 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 2/17/2011 7:28:37 AM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
The question I have for many people here is, should churches, mosques, synagogues, and other religious organizations and/or buildings have the right to discriminate based on whatever reason they see fit? For example, on race, ethnicity, gender, physically and/or mentally disabled people?:

Yes, they reserve that right to discriminate for any and all reasons, and people have a right to protest about it. That's how freedom works.

I'm pretty sure discrimination is antithetical to freedom, not the other way around. Just look at the Civil Rights era when discrimination was openly accepted. I don't think of freedom when I think of the Civil Rights era.

when the Govt. discriminates... it's not freedom...

The govt wasn't the only one discriminating. Private entities participated as well.

However... your being a libertarian.. I would think you would support Joe's right to exclude who he would from entering his house...

I've been over this before. Don't compare a house to a private entity that provides a public service.

and the same Even If he's selling the cookies he just made inside at his kitchen counter.

or.. if he's selling burgers in the shack he owns at the end of the block..

or full sit-down dining at his building across the way...

if it's Your property... why should other people be able to determine who gets to use it??

Because you chose to make your property open to the public. Once you choose to make something public, its open to everyone (with some exceptions like aggressors).
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/17/2011 10:12:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 7:04:47 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Because you chose to make your property open to the public.

No... they decided to make it open to some people... some of the public.

Once you choose to make something public, its open to everyone (with some exceptions like aggressors).

what about if I had a sign up sheet outside... and a Club Membership Evaluator standing at the door... and people could sign up... and Membership is immediately evaluated upon your signing up to become a member by the evaluator?

should those who would begin such a "private" membership club have certain evaluation practices determining who can come into their property forced upon them by the government??

should such types of gatherings on private property be illegal too?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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2/18/2011 2:20:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 2:44:35 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/17/2011 2:00:20 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 2/17/2011 7:28:37 AM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
The question I have for many people here is, should churches, mosques, synagogues, and other religious organizations and/or buildings have the right to discriminate based on whatever reason they see fit? For example, on race, ethnicity, gender, physically and/or mentally disabled people?:

Yes, they reserve that right to discriminate for any and all reasons, and people have a right to protest about it. That's how freedom works.

I'm pretty sure discrimination is antithetical to freedom, not the other way around. Just look at the Civil Rights era when discrimination was openly accepted. I don't think of freedom when I think of the Civil Rights era.

The civil rights movement was about access to goods, services, opportunities etc. Blacks still had their own Churches.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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2/18/2011 2:35:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
A church that discriminates is hypocritical in my opinion, but of course they SHOULD be able to discriminate.
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GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/18/2011 2:55:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 5:54:10 PM, mistavega wrote:
I'd say no, because it goes againts the principles in their doctrine. I don't think I would want to be part of a church that doesn't even follow what they preach.

Have you heard of Mormonism?

"Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 270; History of the Church, 5: 218)

"...wherefore, as they were WHITE, and exceeding fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a SKIN OF BLACKNESS to come upon them."
(BOOK OF MORMON, page 61, 2 Nephi 5, verse 21)

"And the skins of the Lamanites were DARK, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which WAS A CURSE upon them because of their transgression..." (BOOK OF MORMON, page 201, Alma 3, verse 6)

I really find it odd that so many Atheists assume that religions are non-discriminatory.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Zetsubou
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2/19/2011 12:01:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yes, since they're usally private organisations.

Churches, Hospitals, schools should be able to discriminate how they wish.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/19/2011 12:14:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm pretty sure discrimination is antithetical to freedom, not the other way around. Just look at the Civil Rights era when discrimination was openly accepted. I don't think of freedom when I think of the Civil Rights era.:

The Separation of Church and State... Freedom means tolerating some things we wouldn't ordinarily approve of in our day to day lives. I don't personally like that any church would discriminate against, say, homosexuals, but I still believe they reserve the right to be as bigoted as they want. It's their church, they can run it in to the ground for all I care.

As a natural consequence of their discrimination, people will boycott them. They will have to adapt or die. No government intrusion is necessary.

The greatest changes in society haven't come under order federal mandates, but ordinary citizens standing up for their beliefs. A church and people protesting that church aren't exceptions to the rule.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/19/2011 12:18:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I really find it odd that so many Atheists assume that religions are non-discriminatory.:

Who said that??? No one. I really doubt you could find a single atheist on the site who personally agrees with churches discriminating against certain groups, but they all unanimously state that they reserve the right to do so.

They do this, not to protect the bigoted churches, but to protect and preserve liberty.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/19/2011 12:20:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 7:28:37 AM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
The question I have for many people here is, should churches, mosques, synagogues, and other religious organizations and/or buildings have the right to discriminate based on whatever reason they see fit? For example, on race, ethnicity, gender, physically and/or mentally disabled people? I recently read an article about this, and I found it quite interesting. What do people here think? Justifiable or Unjustifiable? (I didn't include religion as a discrimination in this case, given the scenario)
Not if we have anti-blasphemy laws.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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2/19/2011 12:51:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/18/2011 2:55:24 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I really find it odd that so many Atheists assume that religions are non-discriminatory.

Most aren't.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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2/19/2011 1:30:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 12:51:59 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/18/2011 2:55:24 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I really find it odd that so many Atheists assume that religions are non-discriminatory.

Most aren't.

They aren't usually, they just tend work out that way. The UUs pride themselves on being all inclusive, but you'd have an easier time finding a black person in Vermont than in one of their gatherings. Synagogues are well, we know. Methodists have a fair number of Asians, lots of Koreans, i don't know if they are segregated so much as offering services in their language. Episcopal are white white white, then all the myriad other protestant churches like Baptist, Congregationalist, that have the black churches and the white churches. Catholics just go by parish, i've never noticed any discrimination other than that which reflects the community that attends the church.
TheAtheistAllegiance
Posts: 1,251
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2/19/2011 2:58:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 12:14:50 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:

The Separation of Church and State... Freedom means tolerating some things we wouldn't ordinarily approve of in our day to day lives. I don't personally like that any church would discriminate against, say, homosexuals, but I still believe they reserve the right to be as bigoted as they want. It's their church, they can run it in to the ground for all I care.

As a natural consequence of their discrimination, people will boycott them. They will have to adapt or die. No government intrusion is necessary.

The greatest changes in society haven't come under order federal mandates, but ordinary citizens standing up for their beliefs. A church and people protesting that church aren't exceptions to the rule.

Are you completely ignorant of American history? Without the federal ban on the discrimination of provision of public goods and services, there would have been no boycotts.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/19/2011 3:03:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 2:58:19 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
At 2/19/2011 12:14:50 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:

The Separation of Church and State... Freedom means tolerating some things we wouldn't ordinarily approve of in our day to day lives. I don't personally like that any church would discriminate against, say, homosexuals, but I still believe they reserve the right to be as bigoted as they want. It's their church, they can run it in to the ground for all I care.

As a natural consequence of their discrimination, people will boycott them. They will have to adapt or die. No government intrusion is necessary.

The greatest changes in society haven't come under order federal mandates, but ordinary citizens standing up for their beliefs. A church and people protesting that church aren't exceptions to the rule.

Are you completely ignorant of American history? Without the federal ban on the discrimination of provision of public goods and services, there would have been no boycotts.:

Remind me again which federal agency Martin Luther King worked for? Malcolm X? Rosa Parks?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/19/2011 3:05:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 12:51:59 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/18/2011 2:55:24 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I really find it odd that so many Atheists assume that religions are non-discriminatory.

Most aren't.

This.