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Free Will and Prayer

nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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2/17/2011 8:57:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Can they exist together?

My mother is always praying for me to become a Christian. So either God will not answer her prayer, or he will force my will.

Am I way off base here?
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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2/17/2011 9:09:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm sure someone will say "God can guide you to Him..." but meh. Besides, I thought people weren't supposed to ask God for miracles anyway? I've heard conflicting views on this from different denominations. Who can keep with Christians anymore though, amirite?
President of DDO
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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2/17/2011 9:56:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 8:57:02 AM, nonentity wrote:
Can they exist together?

My mother is always praying for me to become a Christian. So either God will not answer her prayer, or he will force my will.

Am I way off base here?

Depends on who you're asking. For Atheists, no, because anything that makes Christianity untrue is sound. For me, absolutely. There are many articles with this topic which can be found via google; I'm not doing your homework.
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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2/17/2011 10:36:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 9:56:07 AM, vardas0antras wrote:
At 2/17/2011 8:57:02 AM, nonentity wrote:
Can they exist together?

My mother is always praying for me to become a Christian. So either God will not answer her prayer, or he will force my will.

Am I way off base here?

Depends on who you're asking. For Atheists, no, because anything that makes Christianity untrue is sound. For me, absolutely. There are many articles with this topic which can be found via google; I'm not doing your homework.

I asked "can they exist together?"

And that's fine, but then why did you bother responding??

Can a serious Christian give their thoughts on this?
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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2/17/2011 10:38:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 10:36:57 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 2/17/2011 9:56:07 AM, vardas0antras wrote:
At 2/17/2011 8:57:02 AM, nonentity wrote:
Can they exist together?

My mother is always praying for me to become a Christian. So either God will not answer her prayer, or he will force my will.

Am I way off base here?

Depends on who you're asking. For Atheists, no, because anything that makes Christianity untrue is sound. For me, absolutely. There are many articles with this topic which can be found via google; I'm not doing your homework.

I asked "can they exist together?"


Sorry, I thought you said "depends on what you're asking".

And that's fine, but then why did you bother responding??

Can a serious Christian give their thoughts on this?
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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2/17/2011 10:52:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 10:36:57 AM, nonentity wrote:

Can a serious Christian give their thoughts on this?

Gah that sounds condescending, but I meant a Christian who is serious about answering the question.

I'm at work and am super stressed right now >.<
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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2/17/2011 11:16:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
LOL, calm down :D
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
mistavega
Posts: 30
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2/17/2011 5:57:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 8:57:02 AM, nonentity wrote:
Can they exist together?

My mother is always praying for me to become a Christian. So either God will not answer her prayer, or he will force my will.

Am I way off base here?

Or maybe he'll open up your eyes to him, that way it wont be againts your will.
spiritislife
Posts: 94
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2/18/2011 3:55:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 8:57:02 AM, nonentity wrote:
Can they exist together?

My mother is always praying for me to become a Christian. So either God will not answer her prayer, or he will force my will.

Am I way off base here?

If you do become a Christian and save your soul, it is because you will 'see' and 'understand' things that you did not understand before - but by your own free will. No one, especially God, will ever force your will to believe in Him. The Catholic point of view is that everything (natural and supernatural) we have is a gift from God - or a 'Grace'. 'Grace' comes from the word 'gratis' which means 'free'. So if you do end up believing in the Truth and saving your soul, it will be a gift, grace, or mercy of God. We are taught that Grace is chiefly won through prayer. So we must pray in order to obtain this favor. Those who do not pray will be damned and those who are damned areso because they did not pray to God and ask for the grace of salvation from Him, while they were alive. Our Lord said:"Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find..." God will give 'the good spirit' (salvation) to all those who ask it of Him.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/18/2011 4:10:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 8:57:02 AM, nonentity wrote:
Can they exist together?

My mother is always praying for me to become a Christian. So either God will not answer her prayer, or he will force my will.

Am I way off base here?:

Alas, no, you aren't. It's the same thing when Christians only acknowledge positive things, and sweep bad things under the rug.

200 people rescued in a flood by people: Evidence of God's miracles, f*ck the Coast Guard.

2,000 people die in a Tsunami: Natural disaster.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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2/18/2011 4:17:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The Catholic point of view is that everything (natural and supernatural) we have is a gift from God - or a 'Grace'. 'Grace' comes from the word 'gratis' which means 'free'. So if you do end up believing in the Truth and saving your soul, it will be a gift, grace, or mercy of God.:

Where is the free will in that if God is intervening only on some people's behalf?

We are taught that Grace is chiefly won through prayer.:

Can an amputee pray earnestly enough to regenerate their lost limb, or do God's miracles only count when modern medicine heals you?

Our Lord said:"Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find..." God will give 'the good spirit' (salvation) to all those who ask it of Him.:

*wonders why there are so many atheists and non-Christians in the world*
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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2/18/2011 10:30:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/18/2011 3:55:29 PM, spiritislife wrote:
Our Lord said:"Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find..." God will give 'the good spirit' (salvation) to all those who ask it of Him.

I'm guessing you've never met Cerebral_Narcissist.
I miss the old members.
TheAtheistAllegiance
Posts: 1,251
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2/19/2011 12:15:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Also, lets not forget that prayer might conflict with God's plan. If God is already planning for something to happen, then what's the point of praying? Though, this obviously only applies to Christians who adhere to the divine plan version of Christianity.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,923
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2/19/2011 12:18:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 12:15:25 AM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
Also, lets not forget that prayer might conflict with God's plan. If God is already planning for something to happen, then what's the point of praying?

Perhaps to communicate with him?

Though, this obviously only applies to Christians who adhere to the divine plan version of Christianity.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
jmar8542
Posts: 380
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2/19/2011 7:17:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 8:57:02 AM, nonentity wrote:
My mother is always praying for me to become a Christian. So either God will not answer her prayer, or he will force my will.

I consider myself a Christian, but I'm also an Agnostic Deist. I don't believe in a divine plan, and I don't believe prayer has any effect on the real world. If we assume that you won't have faith out of free will, the only way you would is if you were forced by God. But if God doesn't answer prayer, it makes the first possibility irrelevant, and free will is the true existing circumstance.
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fvck off." - Richard Dawkins
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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2/19/2011 7:49:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 7:17:04 AM, jmar8542 wrote:
At 2/17/2011 8:57:02 AM, nonentity wrote:
My mother is always praying for me to become a Christian. So either God will not answer her prayer, or he will force my will.

I consider myself a Christian, but I'm also an Agnostic Deist. I don't believe in a divine plan, and I don't believe prayer has any effect on the real world. If we assume that you won't have faith out of free will, the only way you would is if you were forced by God. But if God doesn't answer prayer, it makes the first possibility irrelevant, and free will is the true existing circumstance.

I don't really see how the two are compatible. Christians believe that J-dizzle had a big plan to die for our disrespects.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/19/2011 10:16:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 7:17:04 AM, jmar8542 wrote:
At 2/17/2011 8:57:02 AM, nonentity wrote:
My mother is always praying for me to become a Christian. So either God will not answer her prayer, or he will force my will.

I consider myself a Christian, but I'm also an Agnostic Deist.

Contradiction. Agnosticism and Deism are both contrary and incompatible with Christianity.

I don't believe in a divine plan, and I don't believe prayer has any effect on the real world.

Then you're not a Christian and I don't know why you call yourself one. You just rejected several of the core Christian doctrines and yet still called yourself Christian.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
PARADIGM_L0ST
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2/19/2011 10:26:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I consider myself a Christian, but I'm also an Agnostic Deist.:

The law of non-contradiction maintains that two (or three, in this case) mutually exclusive ideals cannot all be simultaneously true. Based on your descriptions, you sound deist to me.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/19/2011 10:27:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 10:16:11 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/19/2011 7:17:04 AM, jmar8542 wrote:
At 2/17/2011 8:57:02 AM, nonentity wrote:
My mother is always praying for me to become a Christian. So either God will not answer her prayer, or he will force my will.

I consider myself a Christian, but I'm also an Agnostic Deist.

Contradiction. Agnosticism and Deism are both contrary and incompatible with Christianity.

I don't believe in a divine plan, and I don't believe prayer has any effect on the real world.

Then you're not a Christian and I don't know why you call yourself one. You just rejected several of the core Christian doctrines and yet still called yourself Christian.

And innomen's not only Christian he's Catholic!
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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2/19/2011 10:34:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 8:57:02 AM, nonentity wrote:
Can they exist together?

My mother is always praying for me to become a Christian. So either God will not answer her prayer, or he will force my will.

Am I way off base here?

You assume you have freewill to start will. She's praying for you to become Christian. To God you may already be on the path of becoming Christian, he doen't have to force your will if he has already decided you would become Christian at a time before your creation.

Prayer is not dependant on the existance of free will.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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2/19/2011 10:37:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 10:34:05 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/17/2011 8:57:02 AM, nonentity wrote:
Can they exist together?

My mother is always praying for me to become a Christian. So either God will not answer her prayer, or he will force my will.

Am I way off base here?

You assume you have freewill to start will. She's praying for you to become Christian. To God you may already be on the path of becoming Christian, he doen't have to force your will if he has already decided you would become Christian at a time before your creation.

Prayer is not dependant on the existance of free will.

Yes, I'm a Christian, but after going to chrch last Sunday I'm having some strong issues ... so I don't know does that disqualify my answer.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,923
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2/19/2011 12:33:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 10:34:05 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 2/17/2011 8:57:02 AM, nonentity wrote:
Can they exist together?

My mother is always praying for me to become a Christian. So either God will not answer her prayer, or he will force my will.

Am I way off base here?

You assume you have freewill to start will. She's praying for you to become Christian. To God you may already be on the path of becoming Christian, he doen't have to force your will if he has already decided you would become Christian at a time before your creation.

Prayer is not dependant on the existance of free will.

You're a Calvinist?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
jmar8542
Posts: 380
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2/19/2011 1:58:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 10:16:11 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/19/2011 7:17:04 AM, jmar8542 wrote:
At 2/17/2011 8:57:02 AM, nonentity wrote:
My mother is always praying for me to become a Christian. So either God will not answer her prayer, or he will force my will.

I consider myself a Christian, but I'm also an Agnostic Deist.

Contradiction. Agnosticism and Deism are both contrary and incompatible with Christianity.

I don't believe in a divine plan, and I don't believe prayer has any effect on the real world.

Then you're not a Christian and I don't know why you call yourself one. You just rejected several of the core Christian doctrines and yet still called yourself Christian.

Many people I talk to get confused by this. When I say "Christian", it doesn't necessarily mean I'm a bible-thumper who believes every word of the Bible and every doctrine of the church. By calling myself that, I refer to the definition "one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus". As far as my belief in the Bible, I do not view it as the infallible word of God, but an old religious text meant to be interpreted metaphorically. As to the existence of an actual God, I'm a Deist, but I approach that position with Agnosticism...I hope this is making some sort of sense. I'm still working some things out in my own mind.
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fvck off." - Richard Dawkins
PARADIGM_L0ST
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2/19/2011 2:31:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You assume you have freewill to start will. She's praying for you to become Christian. To God you may already be on the path of becoming Christian, he doen't have to force your will if he has already decided you would become Christian at a time before your creation.:

If someone is praying an intercessory prayer for God to reveal Himself to her, then her independent will is affected only because of God's intervention in her life. True or not true?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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2/19/2011 2:32:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yes, I'm a Christian, but after going to chrch last Sunday I'm having some strong issues ...:

Such as?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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2/19/2011 2:34:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Many people I talk to get confused by this. When I say "Christian", it doesn't necessarily mean I'm a bible-thumper who believes every word of the Bible and every doctrine of the church. By calling myself that, I refer to the definition "one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus". As far as my belief in the Bible, I do not view it as the infallible word of God, but an old religious text meant to be interpreted metaphorically. As to the existence of an actual God, I'm a Deist, but I approach that position with Agnosticism...I hope this is making some sort of sense. I'm still working some things out in my own mind.:

Sounds like you're just confused to me and decided to mash labels together. Regardless, I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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2/19/2011 2:42:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 12:33:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:

You're a Calvinist?
In that respects, yes. Though I was thing along the lines of Luthern monergism.

At 2/19/2011 2:32:33 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Yes, I'm a Christian, but after going to chrch last Sunday I'm having some strong issues ...:

Such as?
I'd have to make a tread on it.
'sup DDO -- july 2013