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Why keep Old Testament?

Cerebral_Narcissist
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2/20/2011 12:11:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 12:06:37 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I mean, why keep something that was replaced by the New Testament? Is it really a credible source of history?

Why presume it was replaced?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/20/2011 1:03:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The Old Testament is pretty much irrelevant if you understand the New Testament... However, reading certain books of the Old Testament will put Jesus into a clearer perspective, and his message will make more sense.

Of course, if you understand the New Testament, Jesus in particular, you realize how silly it is and counterproductive to call yourself a Christian.

A good student of Jesus goes off and does good for the sake of doing good, and doesn't even tell people they are doing good, they let their actions speak on their own... A good student of Jesus might practice religion, but they don't make a show about it, and keep it to themselves.. They spread the message, not the religion, and they do this through action.. And occasional wanted advice.

Most importantly, a good student of Jesus realizes that everything the religious people around them say about their religion is a load of crap from non-believers, willfully ignorant frauds, and people who speak presumptuously without having any real understanding.

Jesus delivered a message, one that is largely ignored, and often misunderstood. One of the most important things that he attempted to teach was that scripture of all types is man made. They are merely interpretations of god. If you believe that the bible is infallible, or even just inerrant, you are completely missing the point of what Jesus was saying. Scripture is man's attempt at interpreting god.

Jesus himself was not divine in the slightest, he was a translator of god, and like all good translators, his goal was to elevate the people around him to the point to where they too could be effective translators. Take your hand, and place it into the hands of God, so that you didn't need him anymore.

You have to come to Jesus with the mind of a child, like a blank slate willing to learn and study. If you think you already understand before diving into it, you are just setting yourself up to be a schmuck.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Greyparrot
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2/20/2011 1:18:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 1:03:47 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The Old Testament is pretty much irrelevant if you understand the New Testament... However, reading certain books of the Old Testament will put Jesus into a clearer perspective, and his message will make more sense.

Of course, if you understand the New Testament, Jesus in particular, you realize how silly it is and counterproductive to call yourself a Christian.

A good student of Jesus goes off and does good for the sake of doing good, and doesn't even tell people they are doing good, they let their actions speak on their own... A good student of Jesus might practice religion, but they don't make a show about it, and keep it to themselves.. They spread the message, not the religion, and they do this through action.. And occasional wanted advice.

Most importantly, a good student of Jesus realizes that everything the religious people around them say about their religion is a load of crap from non-believers, willfully ignorant frauds, and people who speak presumptuously without having any real understanding.

Jesus delivered a message, one that is largely ignored, and often misunderstood. One of the most important things that he attempted to teach was that scripture of all types is man made. They are merely interpretations of god. If you believe that the bible is infallible, or even just inerrant, you are completely missing the point of what Jesus was saying. Scripture is man's attempt at interpreting god.

Jesus himself was not divine in the slightest, he was a translator of god, and like all good translators, his goal was to elevate the people around him to the point to where they too could be effective translators. Take your hand, and place it into the hands of God, so that you didn't need him anymore.

You have to come to Jesus with the mind of a child, like a blank slate willing to learn and study. If you think you already understand before diving into it, you are just setting yourself up to be a schmuck.

I agree with all your points about Jesus, I guess this is why I will have to be non-denominational for the rest of my life :(
PARADIGM_L0ST
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2/20/2011 2:08:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 12:06:37 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I mean, why keep something that was replaced by the New Testament? Is it really a credible source of history?:

The New Testament only makes sense in relation to the Septuagint. Secondly, there is some historical value to the bible. It's not all inaccurate, believe it or not.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/20/2011 2:23:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 1:18:25 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/20/2011 1:03:47 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The Old Testament is pretty much irrelevant if you understand the New Testament... However, reading certain books of the Old Testament will put Jesus into a clearer perspective, and his message will make more sense.

Of course, if you understand the New Testament, Jesus in particular, you realize how silly it is and counterproductive to call yourself a Christian.

A good student of Jesus goes off and does good for the sake of doing good, and doesn't even tell people they are doing good, they let their actions speak on their own... A good student of Jesus might practice religion, but they don't make a show about it, and keep it to themselves.. They spread the message, not the religion, and they do this through action.. And occasional wanted advice.

Most importantly, a good student of Jesus realizes that everything the religious people around them say about their religion is a load of crap from non-believers, willfully ignorant frauds, and people who speak presumptuously without having any real understanding.

Jesus delivered a message, one that is largely ignored, and often misunderstood. One of the most important things that he attempted to teach was that scripture of all types is man made. They are merely interpretations of god. If you believe that the bible is infallible, or even just inerrant, you are completely missing the point of what Jesus was saying. Scripture is man's attempt at interpreting god.

Jesus himself was not divine in the slightest, he was a translator of god, and like all good translators, his goal was to elevate the people around him to the point to where they too could be effective translators. Take your hand, and place it into the hands of God, so that you didn't need him anymore.

You have to come to Jesus with the mind of a child, like a blank slate willing to learn and study. If you think you already understand before diving into it, you are just setting yourself up to be a schmuck.

I agree with all your points about Jesus, I guess this is why I will have to be non-denominational for the rest of my life :(

Non-denominational is the only way to go if you are going to keep calling yourself a Christian.

I am not accepted as a Christian simply because I refuse to believe that Jesus is god incarnate.

Otherwise, I could probably be labeled as a very unorthodox Christian..

That said, I also could be labeled as a Buddhist, as a Taoist, as an Atheist, as a Pantheist, a Panantheist, a Hindu, a Muslim, a rationalist, a secularist, etc, blah blah blah

Basically, I know what holds it all together. I choose to say that I am what I am, and that is it... If I have to put a label on it at this very moment, I choose to call myself a Cosmic Alfonzonaut Discordian of DDOOOD Council.

Because why the fvck not, amirite?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
innomen
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2/20/2011 2:30:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 1:03:47 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The Old Testament is pretty much irrelevant if you understand the New Testament... However, reading certain books of the Old Testament will put Jesus into a clearer perspective, and his message will make more sense.

Of course, if you understand the New Testament, Jesus in particular, you realize how silly it is and counterproductive to call yourself a Christian.

A good student of Jesus goes off and does good for the sake of doing good, and doesn't even tell people they are doing good, they let their actions speak on their own... A good student of Jesus might practice religion, but they don't make a show about it, and keep it to themselves.. They spread the message, not the religion, and they do this through action.. And occasional wanted advice.

Most importantly, a good student of Jesus realizes that everything the religious people around them say about their religion is a load of crap from non-believers, willfully ignorant frauds, and people who speak presumptuously without having any real understanding.

Jesus delivered a message, one that is largely ignored, and often misunderstood. One of the most important things that he attempted to teach was that scripture of all types is man made. They are merely interpretations of god. If you believe that the bible is infallible, or even just inerrant, you are completely missing the point of what Jesus was saying. Scripture is man's attempt at interpreting god.

Jesus himself was not divine in the slightest, he was a translator of god, and like all good translators, his goal was to elevate the people around him to the point to where they too could be effective translators. Take your hand, and place it into the hands of God, so that you didn't need him anymore.

You have to come to Jesus with the mind of a child, like a blank slate willing to learn and study. If you think you already understand before diving into it, you are just setting yourself up to be a schmuck.

Well, kind of. A good student of Christ will be able to discern the message of Christ when it is carried by the religious, but also be able to cast out the crap when he recognizes it. There are a few good religious out there.

A Christian will believe the message of Christ is a divine one, counter to our nature, but good for our soul and the individual within. A Christian will believe that Christ was sent here by God to deliver this message, and shed a different light on the nature of God than what we are taught by the OT.
Charles0103
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2/20/2011 3:06:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 12:06:37 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I mean, why keep something that was replaced by the New Testament? Is it really a credible source of history?

Without the OT, Jesus would just be another guy. A great guy, but nothing special. It wouldn't have mattered if He died or not. The OT says He's the one and only one that can and did justify our sins.
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus in Luke 11:9-10
InsertNameHere
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2/20/2011 3:58:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 12:06:37 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I mean, why keep something that was replaced by the New Testament? Is it really a credible source of history?

If you're a jew the Old Testament hasn't been replaced so it's still perfectly relevant.
innomen
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2/20/2011 4:03:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 3:58:50 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/20/2011 12:06:37 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I mean, why keep something that was replaced by the New Testament? Is it really a credible source of history?

If you're a jew the Old Testament hasn't been replaced so it's still perfectly relevant.

Just not super functional.
InsertNameHere
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2/20/2011 4:12:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 4:03:18 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/20/2011 3:58:50 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/20/2011 12:06:37 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I mean, why keep something that was replaced by the New Testament? Is it really a credible source of history?

If you're a jew the Old Testament hasn't been replaced so it's still perfectly relevant.

Just not super functional.

Meh, it works for jews.
GeoLaureate8
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2/20/2011 4:46:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 12:06:37 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I mean, why keep something that was replaced by the New Testament?

I don't think the New Testament has a replacement for things like Genesis, Noah's Ark, Ten Commandments, etc. There are many things unique to the OT that New Testament cannot replace.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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2/20/2011 4:48:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 1:03:47 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The Old Testament is pretty much irrelevant if you understand the New Testament... However, reading certain books of the Old Testament will put Jesus into a clearer perspective, and his message will make more sense.

Of course, if you understand the New Testament, Jesus in particular, you realize how silly it is and counterproductive to call yourself a Christian.

A good student of Jesus goes off and does good for the sake of doing good, and doesn't even tell people they are doing good, they let their actions speak on their own... A good student of Jesus might practice religion, but they don't make a show about it, and keep it to themselves.. They spread the message, not the religion, and they do this through action.. And occasional wanted advice.

Most importantly, a good student of Jesus realizes that everything the religious people around them say about their religion is a load of crap from non-believers, willfully ignorant frauds, and people who speak presumptuously without having any real understanding.

Jesus delivered a message, one that is largely ignored, and often misunderstood. One of the most important things that he attempted to teach was that scripture of all types is man made. They are merely interpretations of god. If you believe that the bible is infallible, or even just inerrant, you are completely missing the point of what Jesus was saying. Scripture is man's attempt at interpreting god.

Jesus himself was not divine in the slightest, he was a translator of god, and like all good translators, his goal was to elevate the people around him to the point to where they too could be effective translators. Take your hand, and place it into the hands of God, so that you didn't need him anymore.

You have to come to Jesus with the mind of a child, like a blank slate willing to learn and study. If you think you already understand before diving into it, you are just setting yourself up to be a schmuck.

I don't think you can derive that understanding from the New Testament. Perhaps from the Gnostic Gospels like the Gospel of Thomas, but not the NT except in rare cases.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/20/2011 5:07:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 4:48:03 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I don't think you can derive that understanding from the New Testament. Perhaps from the Gnostic Gospels like the Gospel of Thomas, but not the NT except in rare cases.

Somehow I did. Those rare cases you speak of were probably the scriptural "keys" to understanding certain deeper concepts in Christianity.

Most Christians live off of the milk of the word, and they are content with it. They don't really get into the meat of it, and for that reason, they lack any deeper understanding. Unless they are a newer convert, they probably don't have any real faith in what they believe.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cerebral_Narcissist
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2/20/2011 6:35:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 1:03:47 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The Old Testament is pretty much irrelevant if you understand the New Testament... However, reading certain books of the Old Testament will put Jesus into a clearer perspective, and his message will make more sense.


Christians claim this, but when it is challenged they can offer only limited evidence for it.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
InsertNameHere
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2/20/2011 6:38:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 6:35:33 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 2/20/2011 1:03:47 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The Old Testament is pretty much irrelevant if you understand the New Testament... However, reading certain books of the Old Testament will put Jesus into a clearer perspective, and his message will make more sense.


Christians claim this, but when it is challenged they can offer only limited evidence for it.

There's actually very little in the OT to back up Jesus' legitimacy. They just interpret it differently, that's all.
Greyparrot
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2/20/2011 6:52:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I would think Jesus would have faded into obscurity if there were not so many fanatic followers. Old Testament references probably had little to do with that.
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/20/2011 7:19:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 6:38:15 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/20/2011 6:35:33 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 2/20/2011 1:03:47 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The Old Testament is pretty much irrelevant if you understand the New Testament... However, reading certain books of the Old Testament will put Jesus into a clearer perspective, and his message will make more sense.


Christians claim this, but when it is challenged they can offer only limited evidence for it.

There's actually very little in the OT to back up Jesus' legitimacy. They just interpret it differently, that's all.

The Old Testament doesn't do jack sh!t to back the "legitimacy" of Jesus. That isn't what I'm talking about.

Jesus didn't fulfill any prophecies(which is what I assume you are talking about). Prophecy isn't what puts his message into perspective.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
InsertNameHere
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2/20/2011 7:21:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 7:19:25 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:

The Old Testament doesn't do jack sh!t to back the "legitimacy" of Jesus. That isn't what I'm talking about.

Jesus didn't fulfill any prophecies(which is what I assume you are talking about). Prophecy isn't what puts his message into perspective.

Those were the points I was trying to make actually. I probably worded it strangely or something. :/
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/20/2011 7:30:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 7:21:36 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/20/2011 7:19:25 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:

The Old Testament doesn't do jack sh!t to back the "legitimacy" of Jesus. That isn't what I'm talking about.

Jesus didn't fulfill any prophecies(which is what I assume you are talking about). Prophecy isn't what puts his message into perspective.

Those were the points I was trying to make actually. I probably worded it strangely or something. :/

Oh, no, pardon me, I was backing you up. I was talking to C_N

I'm not sure how well my position can be understood... I get the feeling that you practically have to be a biblical scholar to get what I'm saying.

Of course, it doesn't matter. It's not like I'm trying to convince anyone of something. I already understand the futility in that. The only people who really could benefit from what I am saying are also the least likely to listen(Fundy loons), so talking about it is almost pointless.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Greyparrot
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2/20/2011 7:34:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 7:30:02 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 2/20/2011 7:21:36 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/20/2011 7:19:25 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:


I'm not sure how well my position can be understood... I get the feeling that you practically have to be a biblical scholar to get what I'm saying.

Of course, it doesn't matter. It's not like I'm trying to convince anyone of something. I already understand the futility in that. The only people who really could benefit from what I am saying are also the least likely to listen(Fundy loons), so talking about it is almost pointless.

I think that if you read a lot of history, then you probably have trained yourself how to read in the context of the times. I think it is a lot different than reading something that was written within a few decades of your life. Maybe this is why you say you need to be a scholar to understand the New Testament?
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/20/2011 8:09:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 7:34:45 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I think that if you read a lot of history, then you probably have trained yourself how to read in the context of the times. I think it is a lot different than reading something that was written within a few decades of your life. Maybe this is why you say you need to be a scholar to understand the New Testament?

You are correct, but getting the thing in context is even harder than just relating it to the times though. Hah

Also, a lot of people fail to take into account OTHER sciences when interpreting something like the bible. You have to have your finger in a LOT of pies.

You practically have to be a polymath, to possibly overstate things a bit.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
popculturepooka
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2/20/2011 8:14:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 4:46:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/20/2011 12:06:37 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I mean, why keep something that was replaced by the New Testament?

I don't think the New Testament has a replacement for things like Genesis, Noah's Ark, Ten Commandments, etc. There are many things unique to the OT that New Testament cannot replace.
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jmar8542
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2/20/2011 11:23:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 1:18:25 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/20/2011 1:03:47 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The Old Testament is pretty much irrelevant if you understand the New Testament... However, reading certain books of the Old Testament will put Jesus into a clearer perspective, and his message will make more sense.

Of course, if you understand the New Testament, Jesus in particular, you realize how silly it is and counterproductive to call yourself a Christian.

A good student of Jesus goes off and does good for the sake of doing good, and doesn't even tell people they are doing good, they let their actions speak on their own... A good student of Jesus might practice religion, but they don't make a show about it, and keep it to themselves.. They spread the message, not the religion, and they do this through action.. And occasional wanted advice.

Most importantly, a good student of Jesus realizes that everything the religious people around them say about their religion is a load of crap from non-believers, willfully ignorant frauds, and people who speak presumptuously without having any real understanding.

Jesus delivered a message, one that is largely ignored, and often misunderstood. One of the most important things that he attempted to teach was that scripture of all types is man made. They are merely interpretations of god. If you believe that the bible is infallible, or even just inerrant, you are completely missing the point of what Jesus was saying. Scripture is man's attempt at interpreting god.

Jesus himself was not divine in the slightest, he was a translator of god, and like all good translators, his goal was to elevate the people around him to the point to where they too could be effective translators. Take your hand, and place it into the hands of God, so that you didn't need him anymore.

You have to come to Jesus with the mind of a child, like a blank slate willing to learn and study. If you think you already understand before diving into it, you are just setting yourself up to be a schmuck.

I agree with all your points about Jesus, I guess this is why I will have to be non-denominational for the rest of my life :(

Wow...I'm genuinely surprised; I was beginning to doubt the existence of any other Christians that had such a view. I get stereotyped all the time by both sides because of this, and I'm sure you do too. Power to the rationalists :)
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fvck off." - Richard Dawkins
GeoLaureate8
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2/21/2011 12:06:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 11:23:54 PM, jmar8542 wrote:
Wow...I'm genuinely surprised; I was beginning to doubt the existence of any other Christians that had such a view. I get stereotyped all the time by both sides because of this, and I'm sure you do too. Power to the rationalists :)

That's because you're NOT a Christian. A Christian believes in God, they are not unsure of his existence like an Agnostic. Also, Christians believe that God intervenes in the world as made obvious by the Bible. Deists reject that view and say that God does NOT intervene in the world. Your world view is inherently contradictory.

At 2/19/2011 1:58:24 PM, jmar8542 wrote:
At 2/19/2011 10:16:11 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Then you're not a Christian and I don't know why you call yourself one. You just rejected several of the core Christian doctrines and yet still called yourself Christian.

Many people I talk to get confused by this. When I say "Christian", it doesn't necessarily mean I'm a bible-thumper who believes every word of the Bible and every doctrine of the church.

I never claimed you were a Bible-thumper, but if you're going to call yourself a Christian you have to at least accept the core tenets, which you apparently reject.

By calling myself that, I refer to the definition "one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus".

Ok, well if you believe in the "teachings of Jesus," then you must also believe Jesus' teaching that you must not only believe in God, but love God, or else you can't enter heaven. An Agnostic does not believe in God nor does an Agnostic love God.

Jesus also taught that God is Yahweh, not "Deist God" which you apparently believe in. "Deist God" is a false God that Jesus would condemn you for. So no, you don't follow the teachings of Jesus.

As far as my belief in the Bible, I do not view it as the infallible word of God, but an old religious text meant to be interpreted metaphorically.

Even if you don't hold the Bible to be infallible, you still have to accept that it at least represents the word of God. Also, the Bible cannot really be interpreted metaphorically, except maybe in a few instances. If the Bible can be interpreted metaphorically as you claim, then please interpret this verse metaphorically for me:

"But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD." -- Leviticus 1:9

As to the existence of an actual God, I'm a Deist, but I approach that position with Agnosticism.

It is an absurd position which I have demonstrated above.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
jmar8542
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2/21/2011 12:21:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/21/2011 12:06:52 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/20/2011 11:23:54 PM, jmar8542 wrote:
Wow...I'm genuinely surprised; I was beginning to doubt the existence of any other Christians that had such a view. I get stereotyped all the time by both sides because of this, and I'm sure you do too. Power to the rationalists :)

That's because you're NOT a Christian. A Christian believes in God, they are not unsure of his existence like an Agnostic. Also, Christians believe that God intervenes in the world as made obvious by the Bible. Deists reject that view and say that God does NOT intervene in the world. Your world view is inherently contradictory.

At 2/19/2011 1:58:24 PM, jmar8542 wrote:
At 2/19/2011 10:16:11 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Then you're not a Christian and I don't know why you call yourself one. You just rejected several of the core Christian doctrines and yet still called yourself Christian.

Many people I talk to get confused by this. When I say "Christian", it doesn't necessarily mean I'm a bible-thumper who believes every word of the Bible and every doctrine of the church.

I never claimed you were a Bible-thumper, but if you're going to call yourself a Christian you have to at least accept the core tenets, which you apparently reject.

By calling myself that, I refer to the definition "one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus".

Ok, well if you believe in the "teachings of Jesus," then you must also believe Jesus' teaching that you must not only believe in God, but love God, or else you can't enter heaven. An Agnostic does not believe in God nor does an Agnostic love God.

Jesus also taught that God is Yahweh, not "Deist God" which you apparently believe in. "Deist God" is a false God that Jesus would condemn you for. So no, you don't follow the teachings of Jesus.

As far as my belief in the Bible, I do not view it as the infallible word of God, but an old religious text meant to be interpreted metaphorically.

Even if you don't hold the Bible to be infallible, you still have to accept that it at least represents the word of God. Also, the Bible cannot really be interpreted metaphorically, except maybe in a few instances. If the Bible can be interpreted metaphorically as you claim, then please interpret this verse metaphorically for me:

"But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD." -- Leviticus 1:9


As to the existence of an actual God, I'm a Deist, but I approach that position with Agnosticism.

It is an absurd position which I have demonstrated above.

By telling me what my worldview should be, you're assuming everything about what I believe. Your profile says you're a Buddhist; does that mean you believe in reincarnation, karma, and the gods referred to in the Tipitaka and those of its Hindu origins? What about the Buddhists that don't believe in these things, but follow the Eightfold Path?

When you assert the position that according to Jesus you must love God to enter heaven, you're still assuming I interpret the Scriptures literally, including what exactly Heaven is and how we get there.

The verse you present is from the Old Testament, which I have neither read nor believe in. This is entirely possible if my presented definition of a Christian is valid.

My "absurd position" is a result of my conclusion that nothing can be 100% known from our current perspective with our current means.
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fvck off." - Richard Dawkins
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/21/2011 2:03:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/21/2011 12:21:10 AM, jmar8542 wrote:
By telling me what my worldview should be, you're assuming everything about what I believe.

No, I based my criticism on your own words that you have used to describe your beliefs.

Your profile says you're a Buddhist; does that mean you believe in reincarnation,

No, and neither does the Buddha. Reincarnation is a Hindu doctrine that the Buddha rejected. See here:

Sati: "Yes, venerable sir, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences."

The Buddha replied: "Foolish man, to whom do you know me having preached this Teaching. Haven't I told, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, you foolish man, because of your wrong grasp, blame me, destroy yourself, and accumulate much demerit."

-- [Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta]

"Only through ignorance and delusion do men indulge in the dream that their souls are separate and self-existent entities." -- the Buddha

"Since, then, O bhikkhus, there is no self, there can not be any afterlife of a self. Therefore abandon all thought of self." -- the Buddha

karma,

Yes, because karma is simply the law of cause and effect applied to morality. See here:

"Therefore, O bhikkhus, as there is no self, there is no transmigration of a self; but there are deeds and the continued effect of deeds. There is a rebirth of karma; ... this reappearance of the conformations is continuous and depends on the law of cause and effect." -- the Buddha

and the gods

The Buddha was an Atheist. The "gods" that you are referring to were actually were "devas" and are described in scriptures with a sense of irony. For example, the Buddha would actually come in to contact with the "gods" who would claim to be omniscient creators, but the Buddha would usually negate their claims and called them deluded beings and that there is no creator, and he also displayed superior knowledge and was able to stump them, thus demonstrating that they are ignorant. In fact, he straight out called them ignorant to their face. Those don't sound like "gods" to me do they?

the Buddha : "All such notions [of a] ...personal soul, Supreme Spirit, Sovereign God, Creator, are all figments of the imagination and manifestations of mind."
[Lankavatara Sutra]

the Buddha: "Let us, then, surrender the heresies of worshiping God and praying to him; let us not lose ourselves in vain speculations of profitless subtleties."
[Culla Vagga 6:2]

the Buddha: "Others think that God is free creator of all things; clinging to these foolish notions, there is no awakening." [Lankavatara Sutra]

referred to in the Tipitaka and those of its Hindu origins?

The Tipitaka doesn't have Hindu origins. The Buddha created a philosophical system of his own.

What about the Buddhists that don't believe in these things, but follow the Eightfold Path?

Well, the thing in Buddhism is that the Buddha was not a God and does not lay down commandments that we must follow. The Buddha was a wise man who provided us with suggestions. In Buddhism, things that you do against his teachings aren't considered "good" or "bad," but rather "skillful" or "unskillful" because his teachings are for the benefit of yourself, not the Buddha.

When you assert the position that according to Jesus you must love God to enter heaven, you're still assuming I interpret the Scriptures literally, including what exactly Heaven is and how we get there.

Again, the Bible doesn't leave much room for interpretation, it's pretty clear on what you have to do to get to heaven, or at least what you cannot do.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
jmar8542
Posts: 380
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2/21/2011 3:17:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/21/2011 2:03:10 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Reincarnation is a Hindu doctrine that the Buddha rejected.

To my understanding, the Buddha did not believe in a personal soul that is reincarnated, but the transmigration of the karma accumulated by each person.

"Only through ignorance and delusion do men indulge in the dream that their souls are separate and self-existent entities." -- the Buddha

See my above response.

"Therefore, O bhikkhus, as there is no self, there is no transmigration of a self; but there are deeds and the continued effect of deeds. There is a rebirth of karma; ... this reappearance of the conformations is continuous and depends on the law of cause and effect." -- the Buddha

I had also previously believed that the Buddha believed in the transmigration of karma after death. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, the thing in Buddhism is that the Buddha was not a God and does not lay down commandments that we must follow. The Buddha was a wise man who provided us with suggestions. In Buddhism, things that you do against his teachings aren't considered "good" or "bad," but rather "skillful" or "unskillful" because his teachings are for the benefit of yourself, not the Buddha.

You are again assuming, even after I have told you the definition of Christian I adhere to. I do not believe that Jesus was literally God. I believe he was also a wise man, with good teachings that were later corrupted with things like miracles and the resurrection by the Apostle Paul and the church. I don't consider any of His teachings absolute "laws" that I must follow. I do follow them for the benefit of myself and those around me.

It appears because of your militant atheism, you have an inherent negative view on Jesus and the terminology He used, even if I try to tell you my beliefs are much more liberal; probably because of being brought up in a household of conservative Christians and being indoctrinated, or having some sort of negative experience with particular Christians in your lifetime.
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fvck off." - Richard Dawkins
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/21/2011 3:22:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
jmar, if you believe in Jesus' teachings while not believing in God, you're not really a christian. I'm sure you're not alone though. I'm sure there's many people who like Jesus' teachings, but reject christianity.