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Is There An Afterlife?

Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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2/26/2011 2:42:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Harris/Hitchens vs. Wolpe/Arton

For those that would like to see a really interesting debate on the afterlife, I have one right here: http://www.jewishtvnetwork.com...

I haven't seen all of it, but I do regard Hitchens as being one of the best debaters and rhetoricians in the world. At one point, Harris outlines a really fascinating argument that there is an afterlife. Of course, he was only playing devils advocate.

In a universe with sufficiently advanced technology, there will be computers capable of producing consciousness and simulated universes. It follows from this proposition that in such a world simulated universes would far outnumber real universes. As such, it is rational to suppose that we may be in a simulated universe where we have an afterlife. Roughly, that was the argument.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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2/26/2011 5:01:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Just watched it all.
An truly excellent debate; the rabbi's held their own and defended their Jewish beliefs exceptionally well and condemned anything resembling a literal interpretation of an afterlife, which I approve greatly of.

They all seem quite fond of each other. I enjoyed it very much.
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unitedandy
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2/26/2011 8:37:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hitchens really is growing on me. I still think his case for atheism is non-existent and that he was slaughtered by Bill Craig, but in conversational debates or debates on the effects of religion in society, he is formidable. Some of his quips and responses are just great.
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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2/26/2011 3:33:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 8:37:24 AM, unitedandy wrote:
Hitchens really is growing on me. I still think his case for atheism is non-existent and that he was slaughtered by Bill Craig, but in conversational debates or debates on the effects of religion in society, he is formidable. Some of his quips and responses are just great.

Why do people keep saying this? I think he shows quite elegantly that theism is prima facie implausible. You don't really need a rigorous argument to show that.

I actually hold a similar view to that of Plantinga and Craig. I don't think you need an argument against god to be an intellectually satisfied atheist.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/26/2011 3:57:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I didn't watch the whole video, but interesting enough the Torah doesn't really address the issue of an afterlife so opinions among different sects of Judaism vary. I'm not sure which sect those two rabbis are. Anyway, the idea of the afterlife that most people tend to believe in, heaven and hell, is a Christian invention. tbh, I'm not even sure what I believe. I just accept the fact that either we'll cease to exist or our souls(the existence of a soul of course is a whole other debate...) will end up somewhere we won't know until after we die.
gavin.ogden
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2/26/2011 4:05:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 8:37:24 AM, unitedandy wrote:
Hitchens really is growing on me. I still think his case for atheism is non-existent and that he was slaughtered by Bill Craig, but in conversational debates or debates on the effects of religion in society, he is formidable. Some of his quips and responses are just great.

I hope he will continue to grow on you when he's dead. Unfortunately, that shouldn't be too long from now.
Freeman
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2/26/2011 4:09:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 4:05:18 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 2/26/2011 8:37:24 AM, unitedandy wrote:
Hitchens really is growing on me. I still think his case for atheism is non-existent and that he was slaughtered by Bill Craig, but in conversational debates or debates on the effects of religion in society, he is formidable. Some of his quips and responses are just great.

I hope he will continue to grow on you when he's dead. Unfortunately, that shouldn't be too long from now.

I don't care if I have to chip in my kidneys; we're not going to let him die.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/26/2011 4:13:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 4:09:18 PM, Freeman wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:05:18 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 2/26/2011 8:37:24 AM, unitedandy wrote:
Hitchens really is growing on me. I still think his case for atheism is non-existent and that he was slaughtered by Bill Craig, but in conversational debates or debates on the effects of religion in society, he is formidable. Some of his quips and responses are just great.

I hope he will continue to grow on you when he's dead. Unfortunately, that shouldn't be too long from now.

I don't care if I have to chip in my kidneys; we're not going to let him die.

Doesn't he have cancer or something?
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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2/26/2011 4:14:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 4:13:08 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:09:18 PM, Freeman wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:05:18 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 2/26/2011 8:37:24 AM, unitedandy wrote:
Hitchens really is growing on me. I still think his case for atheism is non-existent and that he was slaughtered by Bill Craig, but in conversational debates or debates on the effects of religion in society, he is formidable. Some of his quips and responses are just great.

I hope he will continue to grow on you when he's dead. Unfortunately, that shouldn't be too long from now.

I don't care if I have to chip in my kidneys; we're not going to let him die.

Doesn't he have cancer or something?

Terminal cancer, yes.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/26/2011 4:20:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 4:14:15 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:13:08 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:09:18 PM, Freeman wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:05:18 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 2/26/2011 8:37:24 AM, unitedandy wrote:
Hitchens really is growing on me. I still think his case for atheism is non-existent and that he was slaughtered by Bill Craig, but in conversational debates or debates on the effects of religion in society, he is formidable. Some of his quips and responses are just great.

I hope he will continue to grow on you when he's dead. Unfortunately, that shouldn't be too long from now.

I don't care if I have to chip in my kidneys; we're not going to let him die.

Doesn't he have cancer or something?

Terminal cancer, yes.

It's God's wrath upon him! lmao, I bet there's fundamentalists who actually believe that.
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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2/26/2011 4:23:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 4:20:45 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:14:15 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:13:08 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:09:18 PM, Freeman wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:05:18 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 2/26/2011 8:37:24 AM, unitedandy wrote:
Hitchens really is growing on me. I still think his case for atheism is non-existent and that he was slaughtered by Bill Craig, but in conversational debates or debates on the effects of religion in society, he is formidable. Some of his quips and responses are just great.

I hope he will continue to grow on you when he's dead. Unfortunately, that shouldn't be too long from now.

I don't care if I have to chip in my kidneys; we're not going to let him die.

Doesn't he have cancer or something?

Terminal cancer, yes.

It's God's wrath upon him! lmao, I bet there's fundamentalists who actually believe that.

Of course, when in reality, it is probably the consequence of smoking cigarettes for 30+ years. Religious fundamentalists are the true root of evil in the world.
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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2/26/2011 4:53:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 4:45:42 PM, Ogan wrote:
Is there an after life?

Only for me. :P I can't guarantee anything for the rest of you guys.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/26/2011 5:12:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 4:49:57 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:45:42 PM, Ogan wrote:
Is there an after life?
We won't know until after we die.

*Facepalm*

Haven't we been over this? This statement presumes an afterlife because you have to actually make it to the afterlife to have knowledge of what happens after you die.

Even then there might be nothing.

False. Just because you die and your eyes cease to perceive visuals, does not mean that the world dissipates into nothingness after you die. Everything will still be there after you die.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/26/2011 5:22:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 5:12:12 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:49:57 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:45:42 PM, Ogan wrote:
Is there an after life?
We won't know until after we die.

*Facepalm*

Haven't we been over this? This statement presumes an afterlife because you have to actually make it to the afterlife to have knowledge of what happens after you die.

You always make it so much more complicated than it has to be. There's either an afterlife or there isn't. If there is we won't know specifically what it is until after we die.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/26/2011 5:26:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 5:12:12 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:49:57 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:45:42 PM, Ogan wrote:
Is there an after life?
We won't know until after we die.

*Facepalm*

Haven't we been over this? This statement presumes an afterlife because you have to actually make it to the afterlife to have knowledge of what happens after you die.

Even then there might be nothing.

False. Just because you die and your eyes cease to perceive visuals, does not mean that the world dissipates into nothingness after you die. Everything will still be there after you die.

Dude, you are totally trapped in semantics, no one is contradicting what you are saying.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
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2/26/2011 5:28:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 3:33:45 PM, Freeman wrote:
At 2/26/2011 8:37:24 AM, unitedandy wrote:
Hitchens really is growing on me. I still think his case for atheism is non-existent and that he was slaughtered by Bill Craig, but in conversational debates or debates on the effects of religion in society, he is formidable. Some of his quips and responses are just great.

Why do people keep saying this? I think he shows quite elegantly that theism is prima facie implausible. You don't really need a rigorous argument to show that.

I actually hold a similar view to that of Plantinga and Craig. I don't think you need an argument against god to be an intellectually satisfied atheist.

Nope. He does the same thing as Dawkins in many cases - by arguing against bland, generic arguments, rather than, say, specific cosmological arguments (kalam, for example). Doing this is either lazy or straw-manning, so when Hitchens does this in a debate, he loses the point (although Craig is somewhat of an expert at this himself).

As for atheism as the default position, I think that this is an argument in itself (the presumption of atheism), and one which the atheist must make before denying any burden of proof. Anyways, a position of affirmative atheism (arguments for the non-existence of God) is always going to be stronger than a reactive position, which is why most philosophers will use the various arguments to make their case against God.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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2/26/2011 8:29:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 4:05:18 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 2/26/2011 8:37:24 AM, unitedandy wrote:
Hitchens really is growing on me. I still think his case for atheism is non-existent and that he was slaughtered by Bill Craig, but in conversational debates or debates on the effects of religion in society, he is formidable. Some of his quips and responses are just great.

I hope he will continue to grow on you when he's dead. Unfortunately, that shouldn't be too long from now.

I met a guy in the hospital just yesterday and we talked about this! He said that his "heathenous ways" caused the cancer.

So I replied with, "I have terminal cancer as well. Was that caused by my heathenous ways?"

He said, "Yes."

So I replied, "You have bladder cancer though, right? What was that caused by?"

He said, "God wants me to come to Heaven now, so I can be with him sooner."

......WTF? Atheists are getting killed off with cancer because we're godless. But theists are getting killed off with cancer because God wants to hang out with them?! ROFL.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/26/2011 9:38:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Is Christopher Hitchens getting better? Cause he's looking better and has more hair.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
annhasle
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2/26/2011 9:52:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 9:38:15 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Is Christopher Hitchens getting better? Cause he's looking better and has more hair.

Maybe it's just photoshop and a toupee... >.>
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/26/2011 9:57:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 9:52:28 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 2/26/2011 9:38:15 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Is Christopher Hitchens getting better? Cause he's looking better and has more hair.

Maybe it's just photoshop and a toupee... >.>

But it's a video?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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2/26/2011 10:01:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 9:57:29 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/26/2011 9:52:28 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 2/26/2011 9:38:15 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Is Christopher Hitchens getting better? Cause he's looking better and has more hair.

Maybe it's just photoshop and a toupee... >.>

But it's a video?

Airbrushing and a toupee?

Maybe I'm just too cynical. <shrugs>
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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2/26/2011 10:06:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 8:29:11 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:05:18 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 2/26/2011 8:37:24 AM, unitedandy wrote:
Hitchens really is growing on me. I still think his case for atheism is non-existent and that he was slaughtered by Bill Craig, but in conversational debates or debates on the effects of religion in society, he is formidable. Some of his quips and responses are just great.

I hope he will continue to grow on you when he's dead. Unfortunately, that shouldn't be too long from now.

I met a guy in the hospital just yesterday and we talked about this! He said that his "heathenous ways" caused the cancer.

So I replied with, "I have terminal cancer as well. Was that caused by my heathenous ways?"

He said, "Yes."

So I replied, "You have bladder cancer though, right? What was that caused by?"

He said, "God wants me to come to Heaven now, so I can be with him sooner."

......WTF? Atheists are getting killed off with cancer because we're godless. But theists are getting killed off with cancer because God wants to hang out with them?! ROFL.

Did you ask him about innocent babies and their heathenous ways?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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2/26/2011 10:15:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 10:06:47 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 2/26/2011 8:29:11 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:05:18 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 2/26/2011 8:37:24 AM, unitedandy wrote:
Did you ask him about innocent babies and their heathenous ways?

I gave the shortened version of the conversation to save ya'll from reading so much. But yes, I did include those who are born with cancer or die before they become a "heathen". His response?

"God works in mysterious ways."
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Ogan
Posts: 407
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2/27/2011 8:43:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
When I think of an afterlife, I think of the survival of Consciousness. Yes, Thoughts are Sound-Vibrations, just as Imaginations are Light-Vibrations. But what is Consciousness? Regarding THIS question, I am certain that science has not moved any closer to answering it – apart from NDE research, especially of those born blind - and flounders in the same state it was in the 19th century!
Just listen to the materialist and atheist Prof Tyndall from that era:
"The passage from the physics of the brain to the corresponding facts of consciousness is unthinkable. Where our minds and senses so illumined as to enable us to see and feel the very molecules of the brain; where we capable of following all their motions, all their groupings, electrical discharges, we should be as far as ever from the solution of the problem… the chasm between the two classes of phenomena would still remain intellectually impassable!" And so the Mystery remains to this day.
Regarding those born blind. They are unable to conceive the notion of ‘colour', of ‘light and shade' and of ‘perspective'. Attempting to describe colour, light or shade in words to such a one, is similar to showing visual letters and words to a person born deaf. In the case of perspective, if you tell someone born blind that buildings are much ‘smaller' at a distance but always the same size when you reach them, it sounds utterly illogical. Yet, people born blind who have had an NDE can now fully understand all 3 as we do, even though they have never seen with their physical eyes! There are more and more highly qualified doctors and specialists researching into this area each year. After I first looked at ‘Dr. Kenneth Ring's NDE Research of the Blind'. (People Born Blind Can See During a NDE), it led me to read far more material on it, and believe me it was really worth the effort.
JustCallMeTarzan
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2/27/2011 11:46:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/27/2011 8:43:51 AM, Ogan wrote:

...apart from NDE research, especially of those born blind - and flounders in the same state it was in the 19th century!

Regarding those born blind. They are unable to conceive the notion of ‘colour', of ‘light and shade' and of ‘perspective'... Yet, people born blind who have had an NDE can now fully understand all 3 as we do, even though they have never seen with their physical eyes!

This really isn't that compelling unless the experiences in an NDE are actually coming from the optic nerve and not the visual cortex. NDE's are just the sporadic firings of a panicking brain that thinks it's dying and conjures up random images, or what the person hopes to see.

What would be really compelling is if people born blind who had never heard about heaven or the afterlife or God had the same NDE's as Christians.
Danielle
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2/27/2011 3:32:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 8:29:11 PM, annhasle wrote:
......WTF? Atheists are getting killed off with cancer because we're godless. But theists are getting killed off with cancer because God wants to hang out with them?! ROFL.

LOL

"I'd rather laugh with the sinners then cry with the saints - the sinners are much more fun..."
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Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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2/27/2011 3:46:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/26/2011 8:29:11 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 2/26/2011 4:05:18 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 2/26/2011 8:37:24 AM, unitedandy wrote:
Hitchens really is growing on me. I still think his case for atheism is non-existent and that he was slaughtered by Bill Craig, but in conversational debates or debates on the effects of religion in society, he is formidable. Some of his quips and responses are just great.

I hope he will continue to grow on you when he's dead. Unfortunately, that shouldn't be too long from now.

I met a guy in the hospital just yesterday and we talked about this! He said that his "heathenous ways" caused the cancer.

So I replied with, "I have terminal cancer as well. Was that caused by my heathenous ways?"

He said, "Yes."

So I replied, "You have bladder cancer though, right? What was that caused by?"

He said, "God wants me to come to Heaven now, so I can be with him sooner."

......WTF? Atheists are getting killed off with cancer because we're godless. But theists are getting killed off with cancer because God wants to hang out with them?! ROFL.
Heaven/Hell, total depravity.
'sup DDO -- july 2013