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The Buddha Himself Demonstrates Non-Existence

GeoLaureate8
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2/28/2011 8:34:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The Buddha in the Lankavatara Sutra

"There are four forms of assertion that can be made concerning things not in existence, namely, assertions made about individual marks that are not in existence; about objects that are not in existence, about a cause that is non-existent; and about philosophical views that are erroneous.

By refutation is meant that one, because of ignorance, has not examined properly the error that lies at the base of these assertions.

The assertion about individual marks that really have no existence concerns the distinctive marks as perceived by the eye, ear, nose, etc., as indicating individuality and generality in the elements that make up personality and its external world; and then, taking these marks for reality and getting attached to them, to get into the habit of affirming that things are just so and not otherwise.

The assertion about objects that are non-existent is an assertion that rises from attachment to these associated marks of individuality and generality. Objects in themselves are neither in existence nor in non-existence and are quite devoid of the alternative of being and non-being; and should only be thought of as one thinks of the horns of a hare, a horse, or a camel, which never existed. Objects are discriminated by the ignorant who are addicted to assertion and negation, because their intelligence has not been acute enough to penetrate into the truth that there is nothing but what is seen of the mind itself.

The assertion of a cause that is non-existent assumes the causeless birth of the first element of the mind-system which later comes to have only a maya (illusion)-like non-existence.

That is to say, there are philosophers who assert that an originally unborn mind-system begins to function under the conditions of eye, form, light and memory, which functioning goes on for a time and then ceases. This is an example of a cause that is non-existent.

The assertion of philosophical views concerning the elements that make up personality and its environing world that are non-existent, assume the existence of an ego, a being, a soul, a living being, a "nourisher", or a spirit. This is an example of philosophical views that are not true. It is this combination of discrimination of imaginary marks of individuality, grouping them and giving them a name and becoming attached to them as objects, by reason of habit-energy that has been accumulated since beginningless time, that one builds up erroneous views whose only basis is false-imaginations."

-- the Buddha [Lankavatara Sutra]

=========

Note: It may take several careful readings to comprehend what he is saying.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
FREEDO
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2/28/2011 8:58:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
He has great things to say but I never like how Buddha talks about things like he knows them. I realize he's supposed to be enlightened and all but, shiiit, enlightenment must mean arrogance.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GeoLaureate8
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2/28/2011 9:07:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/28/2011 8:58:50 PM, FREEDO wrote:
He has great things to say but I never like how Buddha talks about things like he knows them. I realize he's supposed to be enlightened and all but, shiiit, enlightenment must mean arrogance.

Yes, the Buddha was quite the arrogant one. People tend to think that he's some peaceful hippie, but he's actually more like the Christopher Hitchens of his days. And I actually like that quality about him, especially given that I'm a fan of Hitchens style.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/28/2011 10:12:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Holy chao, there has to be a better translation than this. I'm going to make an attempt at interpreting this.

At 2/28/2011 8:34:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The Buddha in the Lankavatara Sutra

"There are four forms of assertion that can be made concerning things not in existence, namely, assertions made about individual marks that are not in existence; about objects that are not in existence, about a cause that is non-existent; and about philosophical views that are erroneous.

A mark would be an attribute or characteristic. An erroneous philosophical view would be a view that is mistaken, obviously.

By refutation is meant that one, because of ignorance, has not examined properly the error that lies at the base of these assertions.


Basically, you come to these faulty assertions from not examining the processes that lead up to the assertion.. You haven't broken down the thought process, or examined your assumptions.

All good true stuff.

The assertion about individual marks that really have no existence concerns the distinctive marks as perceived by the eye, ear, nose, etc., as indicating individuality and generality in the elements that make up personality and its external world; and then, taking these marks for reality and getting attached to them, to get into the habit of affirming that things are just so and not otherwise.


We tend to base our understanding on constructs of our own limited ability to perceive the world around us. We get attached to these constructs, and tend to not examine them. Because we do not really examine them, we just assume that is how it is, and mistake how we perceive the world to be actuality. This effects the way your mind processes external and internal information. Because of this, we assign faulty characteristics to both ourselves and external objects.

We see an apple as an apple, when really it is far more than just an apple. We battle with depression, but depression is far more than just depression. We can break these things down. They are constructs.

The assertion about objects that are non-existent is an assertion that rises from attachment to these associated marks of individuality and generality. Objects in themselves are neither in existence nor in non-existence and are quite devoid of the alternative of being and non-being; and should only be thought of as one thinks of the horns of a hare, a horse, or a camel, which never existed. Objects are discriminated by the ignorant who are addicted to assertion and negation, because their intelligence has not been acute enough to penetrate into the truth that there is nothing but what is seen of the mind itself.


Once you understand the last point, and how we tend to generalize and simplify things into concepts such as "apple", you realize that every object you look at can be broken down into more parts, and broken down more, down to the level of atoms, sub-atomic particles, etc.

It's not that the apple does or doesn't exist, it just doesn't exist as we perceive it to exist. It is more of an illusion than anything. An illusion of our own mental constructs.

The assertion of a cause that is non-existent assumes the causeless birth of the first element of the mind-system which later comes to have only a maya (illusion)-like non-existence.

That is to say, there are philosophers who assert that an originally unborn mind-system begins to function under the conditions of eye, form, light and memory, which functioning goes on for a time and then ceases. This is an example of a cause that is non-existent.


Basically, the traditional understanding of reincarnation is false. There is no eternal soul that goes to another body after its last body dies.

The assertion of philosophical views concerning the elements that make up personality and its environing world that are non-existent, assume the existence of an ego, a being, a soul, a living being, a "nourisher", or a spirit. This is an example of philosophical views that are not true. It is this combination of discrimination of imaginary marks of individuality, grouping them and giving them a name and becoming attached to them as objects, by reason of habit-energy that has been accumulated since beginningless time, that one builds up erroneous views whose only basis is false-imaginations."

-- the Buddha [Lankavatara Sutra]

Basically, no soul or driving force of free will. We are the result of reactions and processes. We believe that there is a self, that there is an individuality to our being, but this is an illusion created by our minds tendency to trap itself into false assumptions have been left unexamined.

Buddha was a fvcking genius. If I didn't know that these things could be realized without leaving your own room, I'd honestly be shocked that this guy managed to figure this stuff out like 500 years before Christ.

He truly was enlightened.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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3/1/2011 9:52:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/28/2011 9:07:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/28/2011 8:58:50 PM, FREEDO wrote:
He has great things to say but I never like how Buddha talks about things like he knows them. I realize he's supposed to be enlightened and all but, shiiit, enlightenment must mean arrogance.

Yes, the Buddha was quite the arrogant one. People tend to think that he's some peaceful hippie, but he's actually more like the Christopher Hitchens of his days. And I actually like that quality about him, especially given that I'm a fan of Hitchens style.

To be honest, I don't think he was all that arrogant at all. He was right on for the most part, and well.. If you are right on, you can't really be all that arrogant.

I don't get the impression he was ever a huge dick about it though. Probably had a ridiculous sense of humor. You can't help but develop a ridiculous sense of humor when being aware of these things... If you didn't have a sense of humor, living in a world where the difference in your intelligence compared to the average human at the time is about the same as the difference between the average human and an intelligent chimpanzee would be unbearable.

Outright saying such a thing is basically social suicide, no matter how right on you might be...

Buddha explained things lucidly to his disciples, who didn't get it at all.. So my guess is that he spent most of his time making fun of them in ways that would get them to realize the message he is trying to speak.

The message that Buddha was attempting to deliver is nearly impossible to transfer between two people. It's something you can only really do on your own. The most Buddha can do for you is plant the seed in you that gets you to break things down and figure it out on your own.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
GeoLaureate8
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3/1/2011 2:59:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/1/2011 9:52:55 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
To be honest, I don't think he was all that arrogant at all. He was right on for the most part, and well.. If you are right on, you can't really be all that arrogant.

I don't get the impression he was ever a huge dick about it though. Probably had a ridiculous sense of humor. You can't help but develop a ridiculous sense of humor when being aware of these things... If you didn't have a sense of humor, living in a world where the difference in your intelligence compared to the average human at the time is about the same as the difference between the average human and an intelligent chimpanzee would be unbearable.

Outright saying such a thing is basically social suicide, no matter how right on you might be...

Buddha explained things lucidly to his disciples, who didn't get it at all.. So my guess is that he spent most of his time making fun of them in ways that would get them to realize the message he is trying to speak.

The message that Buddha was attempting to deliver is nearly impossible to transfer between two people. It's something you can only really do on your own. The most Buddha can do for you is plant the seed in you that gets you to break things down and figure it out on your own.

Are you serious? He was so arrogant he insulted the gods to their face! See he wasn't arrogant when teaching his disciples, but he was to the opposition, the Hindu gurus and the gods.

See here:

Sati: "Yes, venerable sir, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences."

The Buddha replied: "Foolish man, to whom do you know me having preached this Teaching. Haven't I told, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, you foolish man, because of your wrong grasp, blame me, destroy yourself, and accumulate much demerit."
-- Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta

"When this was said, I [the Buddha] told Baka Brahma [God], 'How immersed in ignorance is Baka Brahma! How immersed in ignorance is Baka Brahma!  — in that what is actually inconstant he calls "constant." What is actually impermanent he calls "permanent." What is actually non-eternal he calls "eternal." What is actually partial he calls "total." What is actually subject to falling away he calls "not subject to falling away." Where one takes birth, ages, dies, falls away, and reappears, he says, "For here one does not take birth, does not age, does not die, does not fall away, does not reappear." And there being another, higher escape, he says, "There is no other, higher escape."'

"Then Mara, the Evil One, taking possession of an attendant of the Brahma assembly, said to me, 'Monk! Monk! Don't attack him! Don't attack him! For this Brahma, monk, is the Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All- Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be. There were, monk, before your time, brahmans & contemplatives in the world.
...

'Well, monk, how do you discern my sphere, how do you discern my splendor:"Baka Brahma has this much great power. Baka Brahma has this much great might. Baka Brahma has this much great influence"?'

'That, brahma, is how I discern your sphere, that is how I discern your splendor: There are, brahma, bodies other than yours that you don't know, don't see, but that I know, I see. There is, brahma, the body named Abhassara (Radiant/Luminous) from which you fell away & reappeared here. From your having lived here so long, your memory of that has become muddled. That is why you don't know it, don't see it, but I know it, I see it. Thus I am not your mere equal in terms of direct knowing, so how could I be inferior? I am actually superior to you."

-- Brahma-nimantanika Sutta
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
CosmicAlfonzo
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3/1/2011 3:13:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
arrogant   
[ar-uh-guhnt] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud: an arrogant public official.

He would only really be arrogant if he was mistaken.

Insulting false gods to their face is hardly arrogant if you ask me. Insulting ignorant priests is hardly arrogant, especially if they are the real arrogant ones.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
GeoLaureate8
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3/2/2011 1:40:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
PARADIGM's silence is deafening! Perhaps this discourse eludes him.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
CosmicAlfonzo
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3/2/2011 2:28:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
This is a very hard to understand sermon. A lot of these writings are hard to understand, not only because of translation issues, but because of the nature of what is being taught.

Buddha isn't saying that nothing exists though, less anyone gets that impression.. It's a little bit deeper than that, and has more to do with our understanding than anything.

Geo, you should post Buddha sermons periodically.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Greyparrot
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3/2/2011 2:30:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 2:28:06 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
This is a very hard to understand sermon. A lot of these writings are hard to understand, not only because of translation issues, but because of the nature of what is being taught.

Buddha isn't saying that nothing exists though, less anyone gets that impression.. It's a little bit deeper than that, and has more to do with our understanding than anything.

Geo, you should post Buddha sermons periodically.

It is interesting to get a perspective on thought analysis.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/2/2011 2:39:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 2:28:06 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
This is a very hard to understand sermon. A lot of these writings are hard to understand, not only because of translation issues, but because of the nature of what is being taught.

I concur.

Buddha isn't saying that nothing exists though, less anyone gets that impression.. It's a little bit deeper than that, and has more to do with our understanding than anything.

Agreed. I was just pointing that he explains how certain things don't exist, i.e. objects, souls, etc.

Geo, you should post Buddha sermons periodically.

That would be a good idea! There are so many gems to be found in Buddhist scripture and much material that should be the cause of much discussion on DDO!
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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3/2/2011 2:47:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 2:30:14 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/2/2011 2:28:06 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
This is a very hard to understand sermon. A lot of these writings are hard to understand, not only because of translation issues, but because of the nature of what is being taught.

Buddha isn't saying that nothing exists though, less anyone gets that impression.. It's a little bit deeper than that, and has more to do with our understanding than anything.

Geo, you should post Buddha sermons periodically.

It is interesting to get a perspective on thought analysis.

What do you mean by that? Are you requesting a discourse on thought analysis?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/3/2011 5:03:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 2:47:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/2/2011 2:30:14 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/2/2011 2:28:06 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
This is a very hard to understand sermon. A lot of these writings are hard to understand, not only because of translation issues, but because of the nature of what is being taught.

Buddha isn't saying that nothing exists though, less anyone gets that impression.. It's a little bit deeper than that, and has more to do with our understanding than anything.

Geo, you should post Buddha sermons periodically.

It is interesting to get a perspective on thought analysis.

What do you mean by that? Are you requesting a discourse on thought analysis?

The bottom line is that Buddha, Muhammed and ALL other 'teachers' will stand before the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST.

He coming back folks, and the way things are hotting up in the middle east; SOON.
The Cross.. the Cross.
GeoLaureate8
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3/3/2011 5:32:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/3/2011 5:03:56 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
The bottom line is that Buddha, Muhammed and ALL other 'teachers' will stand before the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST.

He coming back folks, and the way things are hotting up in the middle east; SOON.

False. The Buddha has already been face to face with deities equally powerful as Jesus and Yahweh. He made an example of them and affirmed his superiority.

"That Blessed One [Buddha] enjoys the various kinds of supernormal power: having been one, he becomes many; having been many, he becomes one; he appears and vanishes; he goes unhindered through a wall, through an enclosure, through a mountain, as though through space; he dives in and out of the earth as though it were water; he walks on water without sinking as though it were earth; seated cross-legged, he travels in space like a bird; with his hand he touches and strokes the moon and sun so powerful and mighty; he wields bodily mastery even as far as the Brahma-world.'" [Mahasihanada Sutta]

"Well, friend, I do not see anyone in the world of Devas, Maras, Brahmas, or among the generation of recluses, brahmanas, deities, and humans, who could either confound my mind or cleave my heart, or take me by the feet and fling me over to the further shore of the ocean; nevertheless, friend, ask what you will."
-- the Buddha [Alavaka Sutta]

Also, refer to Post #6 on the first page.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DATCMOTO
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3/4/2011 4:13:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/3/2011 5:32:26 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/3/2011 5:03:56 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
The bottom line is that Buddha, Muhammed and ALL other 'teachers' will stand before the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST.

He coming back folks, and the way things are hotting up in the middle east; SOON.

False. The Buddha has already been face to face with deities equally powerful as Jesus and Yahweh. He made an example of them and affirmed his superiority.

"That Blessed One [Buddha] enjoys the various kinds of supernormal power: having been one, he becomes many; having been many, he becomes one; he appears and vanishes; he goes unhindered through a wall, through an enclosure, through a mountain, as though through space; he dives in and out of the earth as though it were water; he walks on water without sinking as though it were earth; seated cross-legged, he travels in space like a bird; with his hand he touches and strokes the moon and sun so powerful and mighty; he wields bodily mastery even as far as the Brahma-world.'" [Mahasihanada Sutta]

"Well, friend, I do not see anyone in the world of Devas, Maras, Brahmas, or among the generation of recluses, brahmanas, deities, and humans, who could either confound my mind or cleave my heart, or take me by the feet and fling me over to the further shore of the ocean; nevertheless, friend, ask what you will."
-- the Buddha [Alavaka Sutta]

Also, refer to Post #6 on the first page.

He's coming face to face with JUDGMENT for his SINS! JUST like the rest of us.. ONLY by trusting in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ can we escape God's coming and JUST wrath!
The Cross.. the Cross.