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A great parable of the power of Christianity

tigg13
Posts: 302
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3/6/2011 2:35:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/6/2011 11:18:42 AM, Gileandos wrote:


This is a powerful example of Christianity and its claims. Relevant thoughts?

* Why did God put the man in the hole in the first place?
* Why did it take so long for the guy with the rope to come and help him?
* Isn't the moral of this story that, no matter how much you want to be saved, until God decides to save you, you're screwed? In other words, it isn't really our choice to be saved, it's God's.
* Since the hole was really a metaphor, wasn't that guy, who said that the hole didn't really exist, actually telling the truth?

The parable was predicated on the Christian assumption that we are all in need of salvation and, therefore, would only really work on someone who already accepted the Christian meme.

Otherwise, this is just another example of Christians trying to use fear to leverage their beliefs.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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3/6/2011 5:43:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/6/2011 2:35:28 PM, tigg13 wrote:
At 3/6/2011 11:18:42 AM, Gileandos wrote:


This is a powerful example of Christianity and its claims. Relevant thoughts?


* Why did God put the man in the hole in the first place?
* Why did it take so long for the guy with the rope to come and help him?
* Isn't the moral of this story that, no matter how much you want to be saved, until God decides to save you, you're screwed? In other words, it isn't really our choice to be saved, it's God's.
* Since the hole was really a metaphor, wasn't that guy, who said that the hole didn't really exist, actually telling the truth?

The parable was predicated on the Christian assumption that we are all in need of salvation and, therefore, would only really work on someone who already accepted the Christian meme.

Otherwise, this is just another example of Christians trying to use fear to leverage their beliefs.

Interesting points and valid questions:
First *Due to the Angelic Conflict-Everyone could have chosen the natural good from the first moral choice and they could have chosen it everytime and never wound up in the hole.

Second *God's timing is perfect. The metaphor describes a "seeker" of the religions and the person now realizes he is in the proverbial hole. God will allow you to seek after the incorrect and even advocate the incorrect so that you will "earn" the knowledge of the truth. It's the reason for many Christian denominations and religions.

Third *Correct in a way. In the same way a person who wants to be a professional crab fisherman, and is completely broke, has a need to be a worthy employee. Good news is that God has a permenant and open hiring policy. Would you want an unrepentant Hitler running heaven?

Fourth *Double Fault and when you read for the authors intent you read for the "literal" meaning behind the metaphor. Nice pun though.

Also concerning the assumption of the need for salvation.
I personally felt the need for deliverence prior to ever even knowing who Jesus was or what he did.
I knew within me I was not as good as I was designed to be. When I should have helped someone, I was conpletely selfish.... it gets worse from that statement.....

Have you never felt you are less somehow than you should be? That some great destiny is passing you by as you trudge off to mediocrity?

Have you never wondered why that cloud of guilt is so impactful when Christians open their mouths? What is the powersource?

I did not become a Christian right away. After all I liked alot of what I was doing. However, the things that I did not like, that I was indeed doing, and I knew was evil was quite overwhelming. I choose to start listening to God at that point.

Curious to your viewpoint on the questions above.
Thank you again for the input and valid questions.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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3/6/2011 6:52:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/6/2011 6:35:07 PM, nonentity wrote:
The video strawmans the other religions.

Which specific religion? I realize they were all very pithy synopses of the other key viewpoints.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/6/2011 7:24:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/6/2011 6:52:05 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 3/6/2011 6:35:07 PM, nonentity wrote:
The video strawmans the other religions.

Which specific religion? I realize they were all very pithy synopses of the other key viewpoints.

Yeah, the video failed at discrediting Buddhist methods. It mentioned the monk that walked by and told him to meditate and purify his mind until he reached Nirvana and then all suffering will have ceased, but that the man still remained in the hole. Ok, the monk never promised that he escape the hole.

Of course, that's the whole point for Buddhism though. It teaches you how to be content with YOURSELF and bring inner peace so that external situations like being trapped in a hole, don't dictate your state of well-being. So the video made a fool of itself really.

Also, the video presumed that the Christian promises were true and didn't explain why the Christian promises were more likely than any of the other promises of other religions. So the video failed on all accounts.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

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Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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3/6/2011 8:06:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/6/2011 7:24:42 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/6/2011 6:52:05 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 3/6/2011 6:35:07 PM, nonentity wrote:
The video strawmans the other religions.

Which specific religion? I realize they were all very pithy synopses of the other key viewpoints.

Yeah, the video failed at discrediting Buddhist methods. It mentioned the monk that walked by and told him to meditate and purify his mind until he reached Nirvana and then all suffering will have ceased, but that the man still remained in the hole. Ok, the monk never promised that he escape the hole.

Of course, that's the whole point for Buddhism though. It teaches you how to be content with YOURSELF and bring inner peace so that external situations like being trapped in a hole, don't dictate your state of well-being. So the video made a fool of itself really.

Also, the video presumed that the Christian promises were true and didn't explain why the Christian promises were more likely than any of the other promises of other religions. So the video failed on all accounts.

Spot on criticism.
I do though think the video was not portraying the necessity of being content within the hole nor the hole being a physical suffering as you are suggesting above. I believe it was targeting, the concept of the "seeker" longing for the feeling of being free.
I also have felt the lostness and experienced the fact that all other viewpoints fell dramatically short of the power to solve my problems.

Additionally, Christianity teaches for believers to be content in any of the physical circumstances they find themselves.

Where we should not stay is within the darkness where there is no truth.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/7/2011 5:01:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/6/2011 11:18:42 AM, Gileandos wrote:
http://www.sermoncentral.com...

This is a powerful example of Christianity and its claims. Relevant thoughts?

Too 'clever' and too much from man..

we need to get back to the foolishness of preaching the foolish Gospel! then God gets ALL the glory! salvation is HIS! we gotta stop trying to take away from Him..
The Cross.. the Cross.
tigg13
Posts: 302
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3/7/2011 1:19:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/6/2011 5:43:35 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 3/6/2011 2:35:28 PM, tigg13 wrote:
At 3/6/2011 11:18:42 AM, Gileandos wrote:


This is a powerful example of Christianity and its claims. Relevant thoughts?


* Why did God put the man in the hole in the first place?
* Why did it take so long for the guy with the rope to come and help him?
* Isn't the moral of this story that, no matter how much you want to be saved, until God decides to save you, you're screwed? In other words, it isn't really our choice to be saved, it's God's.
* Since the hole was really a metaphor, wasn't that guy, who said that the hole didn't really exist, actually telling the truth?

The parable was predicated on the Christian assumption that we are all in need of salvation and, therefore, would only really work on someone who already accepted the Christian meme.

Otherwise, this is just another example of Christians trying to use fear to leverage their beliefs.

Interesting points and valid questions:
First *Due to the Angelic Conflict-Everyone could have chosen the natural good from the first moral choice and they could have chosen it everytime and never wound up in the hole.

If God is the ultimate authority then God is ultimately responsible for everything that happens, including the Angelic Conflict and His decision to give us the ability to make wrong choices.

Second *God's timing is perfect. The metaphor describes a "seeker" of the religions and the person now realizes he is in the proverbial hole. God will allow you to seek after the incorrect and even advocate the incorrect so that you will "earn" the knowledge of the truth. It's the reason for many Christian denominations and religions.

If you want to talk about other CHRISTIAN denominations, then I would have to ask why there weren't dozens of guys with ropes tied to crosses promising to help man out of the hole, each claiming that the others either didn't have the right rope or wouldn't carry him up the correct way? Where were the collection plates and the threats that if the man didn't pick their rope, he wold surely wind up in a pit much deeper and darker than the one he was already in?

What you are saying is that God only put us in the hole so that we would feel appreciative when he gets around to pulling us out and that makes Him malicious and manipulative.

Third *Correct in a way. In the same way a person who wants to be a professional crab fisherman, and is completely broke, has a need to be a worthy employee. Good news is that God has a permenant and open hiring policy. Would you want an unrepentant Hitler running heaven?

But it's still a "don't call us, we'll call you" situation in that, it doesn't matter how good you areor how much you want the job, if God doesn't hire you won't get paid.

Fourth *Double Fault and when you read for the authors intent you read for the "literal" meaning behind the metaphor. Nice pun though.

Thanks.

Also concerning the assumption of the need for salvation.
I personally felt the need for deliverence prior to ever even knowing who Jesus was or what he did.
I knew within me I was not as good as I was designed to be. When I should have helped someone, I was conpletely selfish.... it gets worse from that statement.....

Have you never felt you are less somehow than you should be? That some great destiny is passing you by as you trudge off to mediocrity?

Sure. I've also felt that there are laundry detergents that will get my clothes whiter and brighter and cars that that get better gas mileage than mine. The reason advertisers use commercials that reinforce these ideas is that they know people always have doubts and, just like you and your parable, they want to capitalize on those doubts. Like I said, this parable is an attempt to use fear to manipulate people.

Have you never wondered why that cloud of guilt is so impactful when Christians open their mouths? What is the powersource?

Like I said, they're capitalizing on people's fears and self doubts. That, and a healthy dose of peer pressure can push a lot of people into accepting whatever meme you want to force upon them.

I did not become a Christian right away. After all I liked alot of what I was doing. However, the things that I did not like, that I was indeed doing, and I knew was evil was quite overwhelming. I choose to start listening to God at that point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was lost and now I'm found. I've heard it a hundred times before. But do you really think that using people's fears and self doubts to coerce them into accepting your beliefs is somehow more moral than whatever you were doing before. You're just as human and just as flawed as you ever were.

Curious to your viewpoint on the questions above.
Thank you again for the input and valid questions.