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Morality of Christian Creation in a Nutshell

jharry
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3/11/2011 12:42:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/10/2011 11:47:39 PM, jmar8542 wrote:


This one of the worst anti-God videos I've seen yet. No one is going to Hell for what Eve did. That is the main point of the video and the biggest flaw. People go to Hell because they sinned, not some one else.

Read the Bible.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jmar8542
Posts: 380
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3/11/2011 12:48:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 12:42:37 AM, jharry wrote:
This one of the worst anti-God videos I've seen yet. No one is going to Hell for what Eve did. That is the main point of the video and the biggest flaw. People go to Hell because they sinned, not some one else.

Read the Bible.

Doesn't sin exist, though (according to you), because of what Eve did?

What if one lives a sinless life, but isn't a Christian?
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fvck off." - Richard Dawkins
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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3/11/2011 12:49:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 12:42:37 AM, jharry wrote:

This one of the worst anti-God videos I've seen yet. No one is going to Hell for what Eve did. That is the main point of the video and the biggest flaw. People go to Hell because they sinned, not some one else.

Read the Bible.

I thought that, because of Eve's original sin, mankind is born in sin and therefore needs salvation?
jharry
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3/11/2011 12:50:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 12:02:47 AM, rogue wrote:
this is great too.

I spoke to soon, this one is pretty bad too. Common attack though, leave out the whole truth and assault the precieved truth without properly representing both sides of the conversation.

Build up a false truth so it is easier to degrade, because that is the only tactic you have.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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3/11/2011 12:51:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 12:49:14 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/11/2011 12:42:37 AM, jharry wrote:

This one of the worst anti-God videos I've seen yet. No one is going to Hell for what Eve did. That is the main point of the video and the biggest flaw. People go to Hell because they sinned, not some one else.

Read the Bible.

I thought that, because of Eve's original sin, mankind is born in sin and therefore needs salvation?

Salvation yes. Have you ever heard of Sheol in the bible?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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3/11/2011 12:53:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 12:48:01 AM, jmar8542 wrote:
At 3/11/2011 12:42:37 AM, jharry wrote:
This one of the worst anti-God videos I've seen yet. No one is going to Hell for what Eve did. That is the main point of the video and the biggest flaw. People go to Hell because they sinned, not some one else.

Read the Bible.

Doesn't sin exist, though (according to you), because of what Eve did?

No, that is Satan. Eve sinned due to sin.

What if one lives a sinless life, but isn't a Christian?

Read the Bible. All will be judged by what they have or have not done. Being Christian is the fast track. ;)
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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3/11/2011 12:54:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 12:51:38 AM, jharry wrote:
At 3/11/2011 12:49:14 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/11/2011 12:42:37 AM, jharry wrote:

This one of the worst anti-God videos I've seen yet. No one is going to Hell for what Eve did. That is the main point of the video and the biggest flaw. People go to Hell because they sinned, not some one else.

Read the Bible.

I thought that, because of Eve's original sin, mankind is born in sin and therefore needs salvation?

Salvation yes. Have you ever heard of Sheol in the bible?

Nope.
jharry
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3/11/2011 12:59:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 12:54:31 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/11/2011 12:51:38 AM, jharry wrote:
At 3/11/2011 12:49:14 AM, nonentity wrote:
At 3/11/2011 12:42:37 AM, jharry wrote:

This one of the worst anti-God videos I've seen yet. No one is going to Hell for what Eve did. That is the main point of the video and the biggest flaw. People go to Hell because they sinned, not some one else.

Read the Bible.

I thought that, because of Eve's original sin, mankind is born in sin and therefore needs salvation?

Salvation yes. Have you ever heard of Sheol in the bible?

Nope.

Sheol (Hebrew) Hades (Greek) is believed to be a place where the dead go. This place is not the traditional Hell most think of. There are two sides to Sheol, pleasant side and no so pleasant. People like Moses,David and others that died in Gods friendship went the pleasant side until Jesus. They weren't punished in Hell for what Eve did. We are punished for what WE do.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jmar8542
Posts: 380
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3/11/2011 12:59:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 12:53:52 AM, jharry wrote:
No, that is Satan. Eve sinned due to sin.

But God created Satan/Lucifer. Therefore, God created sin, and allowed it to plague humanity. Way to go God :P
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fvck off." - Richard Dawkins
jharry
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3/11/2011 1:01:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 12:59:22 AM, jmar8542 wrote:
At 3/11/2011 12:53:52 AM, jharry wrote:
No, that is Satan. Eve sinned due to sin.

But God created Satan/Lucifer. Therefore, God created sin, and allowed it to plague humanity. Way to go God :P

He didn't want robots.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jmar8542
Posts: 380
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3/11/2011 1:07:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 1:01:01 AM, jharry wrote:
At 3/11/2011 12:59:22 AM, jmar8542 wrote:
At 3/11/2011 12:53:52 AM, jharry wrote:
No, that is Satan. Eve sinned due to sin.

But God created Satan/Lucifer. Therefore, God created sin, and allowed it to plague humanity. Way to go God :P

He didn't want robots.

-facepalm-

Did you fully watch the video Rogue posted? If so, did it go in one ear and out the other?

If Christianity is right, it isn't a true choice; we either choose sin and burn, or choose Jesus and live eternally. So he's saying "you have the choice, but if you choose wrong, I'll torture you for eternity. So, you'd better follow me like a bunch of robots."
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fvck off." - Richard Dawkins
jharry
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3/11/2011 1:16:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 1:07:00 AM, jmar8542 wrote:
At 3/11/2011 1:01:01 AM, jharry wrote:
At 3/11/2011 12:59:22 AM, jmar8542 wrote:
At 3/11/2011 12:53:52 AM, jharry wrote:
No, that is Satan. Eve sinned due to sin.

But God created Satan/Lucifer. Therefore, God created sin, and allowed it to plague humanity. Way to go God :P

He didn't want robots.

-facepalm-

Did you fully watch the video Rogue posted? If so, did it go in one ear and out the other?

If Christianity is right, it isn't a true choice; we either choose sin and burn, or choose Jesus and live eternally. So he's saying "you have the choice, but if you choose wrong, I'll torture you for eternity. So, you'd better follow me like a bunch of robots."

Yeah, the video is crap.

A robot doesnt have a choice. So there is no connection.

Lets say I have a child that murders his/her siblings, tries to kill me and then burns my house down. And he/she openly admits that if they are left alone he/she will burn down our new house and kill any children I have in the future. There are a bunch of choices there. Sure I could and will forgive them, but I wouldn't allow them to keep doing it would I? I would stop that child from doing it again in any way I can.

It's not a perfect analogy but it does address your questions about forgiveness and robots. It's not like God has a choice to send you to Hell or not, you earn your own way.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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3/11/2011 1:25:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 12:02:47 AM, rogue wrote:
this is great too.

This video could have been an honest representation of God/us if it had made an analogy using retirement. Save and invest wisely when you are young and earning (time on earth) so you will have a good retirement when you are to old to earn any more. But then again, it wouldnt be just another crappy attack anymore.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jmar8542
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3/11/2011 1:26:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 1:16:00 AM, jharry wrote:
A robot doesnt have a choice. So there is no connection.

Lets say I have a child that murders his/her siblings, tries to kill me and then burns my house down. And he/she openly admits that if they are left alone he/she will burn down our new house and kill any children I have in the future. There are a bunch of choices there. Sure I could and will forgive them, but I wouldn't allow them to keep doing it would I? I would stop that child from doing it again in any way I can.

It's not a perfect analogy but it does address your questions about forgiveness and robots. It's not like God has a choice to send you to Hell or not, you earn your own way.

If I understand the analogy correctly, the child's deeds represent sin. First of all, this makes all sin equal to murder and arson.

Second, if God doesn't "send" us to Hell, and we go there by our own means, why did God design us so fallibly? As I've said in other threads, it's a screwed up morality if he would design us so that, if left to our own devices, we send ourselves to Hell rather than forcing us to obey him and saving us all.
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fvck off." - Richard Dawkins
jmar8542
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3/11/2011 1:28:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 1:25:59 AM, jharry wrote:
This video could have been an honest representation of God/us if it had made an analogy using retirement. Save and invest wisely when you are young and earning (time on earth) so you will have a good retirement when you are to old to earn any more. But then again, it wouldnt be just another crappy attack anymore.

Retirement isn't a good analogy at all. People who fail to save up for a retirement fund are simply without money; we don't torture them.
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fvck off." - Richard Dawkins
jharry
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3/11/2011 1:30:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 1:26:05 AM, jmar8542 wrote:
At 3/11/2011 1:16:00 AM, jharry wrote:
A robot doesnt have a choice. So there is no connection.

Lets say I have a child that murders his/her siblings, tries to kill me and then burns my house down. And he/she openly admits that if they are left alone he/she will burn down our new house and kill any children I have in the future. There are a bunch of choices there. Sure I could and will forgive them, but I wouldn't allow them to keep doing it would I? I would stop that child from doing it again in any way I can.

It's not a perfect analogy but it does address your questions about forgiveness and robots. It's not like God has a choice to send you to Hell or not, you earn your own way.

If I understand the analogy correctly, the child's deeds represent sin. First of all, this makes all sin equal to murder and arson.

And? Whether the sin differs the heart remains the same.

Second, if God doesn't "send" us to Hell, and we go there by our own means, why did God design us so fallibly? As I've said in other threads, it's a screwed up morality if he would design us so that, if left to our own devices, we send ourselves to Hell rather than forcing us to obey him and saving us all.

There you go again making us out to be robots again. There was nothing wrong with us except ourselves. It is the same in everything. Why do people steal? Because they want to.

But still, there is away around this. Listen to our Father.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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3/11/2011 1:34:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 1:28:13 AM, jmar8542 wrote:
At 3/11/2011 1:25:59 AM, jharry wrote:
This video could have been an honest representation of God/us if it had made an analogy using retirement. Save and invest wisely when you are young and earning (time on earth) so you will have a good retirement when you are to old to earn any more. But then again, it wouldnt be just another crappy attack anymore.

Retirement isn't a good analogy at all. People who fail to save up for a retirement fund are simply without money; we don't torture them.

And going to federal prison isn't the same as torture like Hell either. But now we are just nit pickin. :)

Remove the measurement of the consequence and the analogy is much better then the video. If anything it is honest, unlike the crap she posted.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jmar8542
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3/11/2011 1:37:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 1:30:40 AM, jharry wrote:
There you go again making us out to be robots again. There was nothing wrong with us except ourselves. It is the same in everything. Why do people steal? Because they want to.

But still, there is away around this. Listen to our Father.

If God is our supposedly "all-powerful" creator, why not simply eliminate the aspect of humanity that desires sin?

Christianity chastises humanity for existing the way it is, but fails to explain why the creator did it.

Another analogy: I create a design for a new car. However, it has square wheels. I blame the driver for his/her inability to use the car, but if he/she will use it according to a list of rules I create (no food/drink in the car, no driving when it's dark, etc.) I will give him/her round wheels. How is this just?
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fvck off." - Richard Dawkins
jmar8542
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3/11/2011 1:41:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 1:34:34 AM, jharry wrote:
Remove the measurement of the consequence and the analogy is much better then the video. If anything it is honest, unlike the crap she posted.

This is what I consider honesty.
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fvck off." - Richard Dawkins
rogue
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3/11/2011 1:46:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 12:50:02 AM, jharry wrote:
At 3/11/2011 12:02:47 AM, rogue wrote:
this is great too.

I spoke to soon, this one is pretty bad too. Common attack though, leave out the whole truth and assault the precieved truth without properly representing both sides of the conversation.

Build up a false truth so it is easier to degrade, because that is the only tactic you have.

Hahaha as if this is the only attack we have....

Tell me how it is different then? Tell me what we left out?
jharry
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3/11/2011 1:50:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 1:37:53 AM, jmar8542 wrote:
At 3/11/2011 1:30:40 AM, jharry wrote:
There you go again making us out to be robots again. There was nothing wrong with us except ourselves. It is the same in everything. Why do people steal? Because they want to.

But still, there is away around this. Listen to our Father.

If God is our supposedly "all-powerful" creator, why not simply eliminate the aspect of humanity that desires sin?

Our will?

Christianity chastises humanity for existing the way it is, but fails to explain why the creator did it.

Another analogy: I create a design for a new car. However, it has square wheels. I blame the driver for his/her inability to use the car, but if he/she will use it according to a list of rules I create (no food/drink in the car, no driving when it's dark, etc.) I will give him/her round wheels. How is this just?

The anology fails too. More like i build a car and i give the drivers a lost of things to maintain it and operate it properly.

I may think the seat is too firm and the engine is powerful enough. But it works and it gets me from point a to b, all I really need. Not only that but point B is a car show with any kind of car i could ever want.

Now this journey is long. Lets say i don't check the oil or rotate the tires. The car breaks down and i dont finish my journey. Do I blame he creator? He tells me to wear my seatbelt and don't drive over 55. Let's say ignore both because inhonestly think I know the car and the road better then He. If I wreck and get thrown to my death, can I honestly blame the creator for not making menswear my belt and putting a regulator on the throttle?

You force the strawman when you falsely add in square wheels and the chance to get round wheels if we follow the rules. These assertions are false when compared to Chrisitan theology.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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3/11/2011 1:54:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 1:41:24 AM, jmar8542 wrote:
At 3/11/2011 1:34:34 AM, jharry wrote:
Remove the measurement of the consequence and the analogy is much better then the video. If anything it is honest, unlike the crap she posted.

This is what I consider honesty.


Way to long. Can you come up with your own conversation? I already addressed Hell but I love you with a simple analogy about a car. He doesn't send us, we earn it.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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3/11/2011 1:56:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 1:46:23 AM, rogue wrote:
At 3/11/2011 12:50:02 AM, jharry wrote:
At 3/11/2011 12:02:47 AM, rogue wrote:
this is great too.

I spoke to soon, this one is pretty bad too. Common attack though, leave out the whole truth and assault the precieved truth without properly representing both sides of the conversation.

Build up a false truth so it is easier to degrade, because that is the only tactic you have.

Hahaha as if this is the only attack we have....

Tell me how it is different then? Tell me what we left out?

Honesty.

I all ready addressed this video a couple of times on several different levels. Go back through this thread, it ain't far.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Cerebral_Narcissist
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3/11/2011 1:57:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 12:42:37 AM, jharry wrote:
I am deeply ashamed by the bullsh1t theology I spout. To cover this I am going to lie and claim that this video is not similar to Christianity at all. Later I will cry and probably threaten to punch anyone who tries to teach me about science.

Hmmm... okay.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
jharry
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3/11/2011 2:01:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Heres a fun little idea. Ask a Chrisitan what he/she believes and then question that. You will probably fail if you try and come up with a incomplete understanding of something and then attack it.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jmar8542
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3/11/2011 2:03:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 1:50:32 AM, jharry wrote:
Our will?

But WHY? Why does he believe it's better to give us this will if it means we have the potential to send ourselves to Hell? How is this a good decision in any way?

It's like giving a child a gun and saying "don't pull the trigger." Why not just keep the gun from them in the first place?

The anology fails too. More like i build a car and i give the drivers a list of things to maintain it and operate it properly.

I may think the seat is too firm and the engine is powerful enough. But it works and it gets me from point a to b, all I really need. Not only that but point B is a car show with any kind of car i could ever want.

Now this journey is long. Lets say i don't check the oil or rotate the tires. The car breaks down and i dont finish my journey. Do I blame he creator? He tells me to wear my seatbelt and don't drive over 55. Let's say ignore both because inhonestly think I know the car and the road better then He. If I wreck and get thrown to my death, can I honestly blame the creator for not making menswear my belt and putting a regulator on the throttle?

A car does depend on maintenance. What spiritual maintenance do our lives depend on? We require food, water, shelter, etc. Other than that, each person may do with their lives what they wish. We obviously know what things are unhealthy for us, and what will kill us, so if we're smart we avoid such things.

However, since there's no proof for God, the validity of the Bible, etc. what is the justification for applying its obscure rules to our lives?

It's like the car designer saying "there is a suitcase full of a million dollars at the end of your road trip, but to get it, you must paint your car pink, never listen to the radio, and never use the trunk. By the way, if you don't follow these rules, a falling anvil will destroy your car when you get to where you're going."

Why would I be inclined to believe a word he says?
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fvck off." - Richard Dawkins
jmar8542
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3/11/2011 2:07:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/11/2011 2:01:46 AM, jharry wrote:
Heres a fun little idea. Ask a Chrisitan what he/she believes and then question that. You will probably fail if you try and come up with a incomplete understanding of something and then attack it.

I can only attack the information that the Christian gives to me; therefore, it is his/her fault if I misunderstand the true meaning.
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fvck off." - Richard Dawkins