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NDE Medical Explicability Controversy

Ogan
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3/12/2011 1:44:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Any takers?

NDE Medical Explicability Controversy
by Dr. Jeff, 1/20/02

Greetings!
I am Dr. Jeff. I shared my views regarding near-death experience (NDE) with you on the recent ABC news broadcast. Obviously, neither of us were given sufficient time to expand on our perspectives on NDE. If you are agreeable, I would be delighted to learn more about your perspective of NDE.
My interest in NDE began over a decade ago when I heard a remarkable NDE from a friend, and recalled an article regarding NDE I encountered in JAMA (JAMA. 1980 Jul 4; 244 (1):29-30). Largely to personally explore NDE, I published a web site devoted to NDE (www.nderf.org). Subsequently, I became quite active in IANDS (International Association for Near-Death Studies, www.iands.org). There are a number of NDE physician researchers, and virtually none of us are able to convince ourselves of a plausible medical explanation of NDE. This is consistent with the conclusion of the recent study in The Lancet. Consistent NDE observations that seem medically inexplicable to me include, but are not limited to:
1.The common observation that NDE'rs can see or hear events going on around them while unconscious or clinically without vital signs. In my investigation of over 250 NDE's shared with my web site, approximately 40% described such visual or auditory perceptions. In my investigation, there was only one instance where the contributor confirmed what they saw during the experience to be false. This single report involved perceptions at the end of the NDE, where virtually all others had this component of the NDE at the beginning of the experience. In scores of other NDE accounts the accuracy of perceptions while unconscious were checked by the experiencer. These perceptions were consistently found to be accurate, and often very detailed. This finding has been collaborated by a large number of other investigators in many retrospective studies and one prospective study.
2.There is a remarkable consistency of elements of the experience among NDE'rs. These elements involve experiences not typically a part of daily life and include, but are not limited to, telepathic communication, life review, encountering deceased relatives as opposed to individuals currently living, and a marked lucidness of the experience. A common sentiment among NDE'rs was expressed by one NDE'r saying the experience was "far more conscious than humanly normal." When asked directly if the experience was dreamlike in any way, virtually all NDE'rs polled on our web site answered no. The overwhelming majority of NDE accounts we received (including at least three from physicians) felt the experience was real and meaningful. The great majority of NDE'rs have no significant doubts about the reality of the NDE.
3.There are several dozen cases of NDE's occurring in blind individuals, including those blind from birth. 70-80% of these individuals have visual NDE's. I personally encountered a NDE account from an individual with a congenital inability to smell, who smelled a rose during their experience. There are accounts of deaf individuals with auditory NDE's.
4.There is a consistency of changed beliefs and attitudes following NDE that is partially described in The Lancet article. These findings by The Lancet study are collaborated by multiple retrospective studies by other NDE investigators. The great majority of NDE'rs describe significant life changes following the experience.
5.Those proposing medical explanations of NDE in the past have not been able to find consensus regarding a single or several plausible biological, physiologic or psychological alternative explanations for NDE. This explains the large number (over 20 at last count) of varied alternative explanations for NDE. The Lancet study, by far the largest prospective study of NDE, found the occurrence of NDE was not associated with the duration of cardiac arrest or unconsciousness, medication or fear of death before cardiac arrest.
The preceding are some of the major issues regarding NDE that lead me to conclude NDE is medically inexplicable. I am always interested in learning about the ideas and perspectives of others on this important issue. Anything you wish to share regarding your own views on NDE would be greatly appreciated!
Respectfully,
Dr. Jeff, M.D.

This is now an open letter... any responses?

And for atheists, these vids are a warning from Howard Storm, once rampant atheist.
JustCallMeTarzan
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3/12/2011 6:29:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Would it not seem to make the idea of NDE a little suspect that science is getting closer and closer to reproducing an NDE with electric stimulation, drugs, etc...?

The inner workings of the brain are not well-known, even to modern science. There are some speculations, however, that the "tunnel of light" may be caused by synaptic noise as neurons die. The feeling of peacefulness - release of endorphins. Incoming perceptions? Just because the body is dying doesn't necessarily mean the brain stops working.

I feel the accounts of people who cannot see (hear, etc...) being able to do so in an NDE to be the most compelling. That said, I am curious how they know to describe what they saw/heard if they had never experienced that sense before.

IMO, the burden to prove NDE is anything more than the hallucinations of a dying brain, we need a good study that actually compares the experiences of a wide range of individuals but also takes into account the feelings of those who have had an induced NDE in a lab.

Unfortunately, many of the experiments that could really help understand this phenomenon would be deemed unethical...
Ogan
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3/13/2011 6:47:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Thank you for your reaction. You are the only one so far with the courage and honesty to even approach it. Did you watch the video evidence of Howard Storm?

JustCallMeTarzan: Would it not seem to make the idea of NDE a little suspect that science is getting closer and closer to reproducing an NDE with electric stimulation, drugs, etc...?

Ogan: No, not in the least. Besides, NDE is not an idea but a human experience far exceeding the capability of the normal physical senses.

JustCallMeTarzan: The inner workings of the brain are not well-known, even to modern science.

Ogan: That's a fact.

JustCallMeTarzan: There are some speculations, however, that the "tunnel of light" may be caused by synaptic noise as neurons die.

Ogan: Speculation only.

JustCallMeTarzan: The feeling of peacefulness - release of endorphins. Incoming perceptions?

Ogan: You would have to investigate the difference between such and the actual NDE with those who have experienced them.

JustCallMeTarzan: Just because the body is dying doesn't necessarily mean the brain stops working.

Ogan: True.

JustCallMeTarzan: I feel the accounts of people who cannot see (hear, etc...) being able to do so in an NDE to be the most compelling. That said, I am curious how they know to describe what they saw/heard if they had never experienced that sense before.

Ogan: The most compelling answer to your question is that most people born blind who have experienced an NDE are now able to understand that which is impossible to others born blind, namely, the concepts of colour, light and shade, as well as perspective. There is no possible way to gain these through any other means but experience of sight. As to how they can describe their sense, unlike new born children, most if not all have spent a life time touching shapes, feeling vibrations and have mastered language and the link between the two.

JustCallMeTarzan: IMO, the burden to prove NDE is anything more than the hallucinations of a dying brain, we need a good study that actually compares the experiences of a wide range of individuals but also takes into account the feelings of those who have had an induced NDE in a lab.

Ogan: This has already been carried out as mentioned in the letter, the results of which were included in the Lancet.

JustCallMeTarzan: Unfortunately, many of the experiments that could really help understand this phenomenon would be deemed unethical...

Ogan: We do not need to carry out such experiments, as these experiences have no relation to the brain, apart from it receiving the impressions and memories after the NDE event.
Year by year the evidence is rapidly increasing, and will I suspect eventually cause a major paradigm shift with ground shaking ramifications across the whole of science, religion, philosophy and ethics. Watch this space.
Chrysippus
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3/13/2011 2:26:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm just going to leave this here; Randi is more than capable of speaking for himself...
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!
Ogan
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3/13/2011 2:53:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/13/2011 2:26:29 PM, Chrysippus wrote:
I'm just going to leave this here; Randi is more than capable of speaking for himself...

He had a dream... so what?
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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3/13/2011 2:56:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/13/2011 2:53:25 PM, Ogan wrote:
At 3/13/2011 2:26:29 PM, Chrysippus wrote:
I'm just going to leave this here; Randi is more than capable of speaking for himself...

He had a dream... so what?

All the points you have raised are either weak or subjective, you have posted nothing that suggests that there is any scientific reason to suppose that we have souls or post death consciousness.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
joneszj
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3/13/2011 3:56:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ok, NDE. While it is interesting it seems apparent to me that most of the testimonies can be reasoned as not being out of body experience (oobe) and can be easily and reasonably linked to the conscience trying to work with a failing brain or a brain that expired and was recesitated. That being said I did not get anything much from the videos. All of his experiences were subjective and reflected on life experiences and world views. However, I have read interesting stories about individuals who after dying could recite entire conversations made by people stories above, or an individual pointing out an obscure object in a location the individual could not have known reasonably (shoe on top of the hospital). I first was introduced to those in Lee Strobles book a Case for a Creator. If anyone has any links to information like that it would be much more interesting. Something that an individual could not have possibly known that is not subjective to what may be in their sub conscience.
Br33zy
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3/14/2011 12:35:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
"JustCallMeTarzan: Just because the body is dying doesn't necessarily mean the brain stops working."

Actually the death of the brain is why your body stops working. The heart provides oxygen which the brain requires to function. So if your heart stops, the oxygen levels drop very quickly.
The air we inhale is roughly 78% by volume nitrogen, 21% oxygen, 0.96% argon and 0.04% carbon dioxide, helium, water, and other gases.
The permanent gases in gas we exhale are roughly 4% to 5% more carbon dioxide and 4% to 5% less oxygen than was inhaled.

So once depleted of oxygen the brain cannot continue to operate the body. Which says to me that the brain dies right after the heart or the circulatory system fails. Then the rest of you quickly follows suit. I find it hard to believe that the brain we have studied would devote it's remaining energy to creating a vision as opposed to trying to repair the machine that is our body.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In my personal NDE, I was acutely aware of my surroundings, I recognized everyone but myself at first. I brought back with me a literal play by play of events, conversations, actions, and positions of onlookers and EMT's. Now this is not something I am proud of but I experimented with drugs in my youth. so I know what an hallucinatory experience is and what it feels like. I also know what a dream, a lucid dream, and night fear paralysis feels like. NDE is nothing like any of those which is probably why people find it hard to explain to some one who hasn't experienced it.

I was very aware of myself and felt the sensation of slowly rising, now I didn't get the full tour. There were no lights or divine voices, no renewed sense of purpose, however, there was a sense of enlightenment that I have maintained since that experience. I am not as high strung and I rarely over react to things. I am less materialistic, and more tolerant. I guess you could say I came back with more confidence and a kind of knowing. It's very hard to explain. I am just confident in the fact that there is something after this. And a kind of knowing that I can't explain. But I sure don't think I gained all that insight because some little part of my brain created it as it was dying to somehow comfort me, UNLESS, it has been programmed to do so as a means to ease your transition from one plain of existence to the next. If you are sent back from that journey, it means you have failed a few lessons and you aren't ready. Now is it one entity known as "GOD" that decides this? That for me is the essential question to which I do not yet have the answer. Because I believe the universe is filled with life, and considering how vast and ancient the universe is, there must be creatures who are far more evolved than we are. And I think that THEY are waiting to introduce us to whats next after we leave our bodies on Earth.
Do you remember how electrical currents and "unseen waves" were laughed at? The knowledge about man is still in its infancy.
- Albert Einstein
Chrysippus
Posts: 2,173
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3/14/2011 8:46:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/13/2011 2:53:25 PM, Ogan wrote:
At 3/13/2011 2:26:29 PM, Chrysippus wrote:
I'm just going to leave this here; Randi is more than capable of speaking for himself...

He had a dream... so what?

Did you completely miss his point? Here's the arch skeptic, debunker of all things paranormal, and he has this experience that was so compelling he could not explain it away. If it weren't for his friend providing evidence that it could not have happened, he would have been severely challenged to reconcile this "OOBE" with his previously held views.

NDE's are equally vague and hard to verify. Without some way to prove that they are not hallucinations, dreams, auto-suggestion after the act, or outright lies to garner attention, I fail to see why they should be taken at all seriously.

I believe in life after death, yet I am by no means willing to suspend logic and defer to these supposed NDE's. They seem to conform to cultural expectations and movie references, rather than any serious theory of the afterlife.
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!
Floid
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3/14/2011 10:30:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
"2.There is a remarkable consistency of elements of the experience among NDE'rs. "

Not really. There are many types of NDE that vary wildly. Some people see a review of their life (their memories), some people see a light, some people have a religious experience, some people have an out of body experience and most common of all... most people experience nothing.

What conclusions might one draw from this about NDE.

Well, for religious experience, people tend to see what they believe they will see when they die. Christians meet God, Jesus, or go to heaven while people of other religions have NDE that correlate with their beliefs. So it seems this NDE could be a result of the mind still in action.

I have had dreams that were out of body experiences, so that too could be an action of the mind... especially if you senses are still active even though you are unconcious (which is how one might be aware of their surroundings in such a case).

The other cases have obvious pathways to being connected to actions of the mind.

So what is more likely, that when you die some mysterious substance are being that is inhabiting your body yet not limited to its functioning leaves the body and continuous experiences that you can later remember or that when you have a near death experience your brain is still functioning in some capacity creating a dream like situation?

In absence of other evidence, I think the latter is much more likely.
Ogan
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3/14/2011 12:46:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Thank you for your comments, etc., I will reply to all of them in one post as soon I can - I am in transit from London and being entertained by a group of interesting lager louts (an English term).
Ogan
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3/15/2011 3:15:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist
All the points you have raised are either weak or subjective, you have posted nothing that suggests that there is any scientific reason to suppose that we have souls or post death consciousness.

Ogan
Read, study and digest the report in the Lancet, then answer the letter to Dr Jeffery Long with your negative responses and request a defence of them from him.

joneszj
Ok, NDE. While it is interesting it seems apparent to me that most of the testimonies can be reasoned as not being out of body experience (obe) and can be easily and reasonably linked to the conscience trying to work with a failing brain or a brain that expired and was resuscitated.

Ogan
So you separate the Consciousness from the brain – well done, I agree with that.

joneszj
All of his experiences were subjective and reflected on life experiences and world views.

Ogan
He was a learned professor and rampant atheist before the experience, and surely he would have known better? Maybe life experiences and world views are a distorted reflection of the Real Life you and others are utterly unconscious of?

Chrysippus
Did you completely miss his point? Here's the arch skeptic, debunker of all things paranormal, and he has this experience that was so compelling he could not explain it away. If it weren't for his friend providing evidence that it could not have happened, he would have been severely challenged to reconcile this "OBE" with his previously held views.

Ogan
No I did not miss his point. He had a dream. Richard Dawkins refuses to discuss the sciences with Creationists for the same reason I don't discuss NDE's with debunkers of all things paranormal. We must seek for knowledge and proof without preconceived ideas or beliefs. For instance nearly all research into atoms would have failed if we followed debunkers of it.

Chrysippus
NDE's are equally vague and hard to verify. Without some way to prove that they are not hallucinations, dreams, auto-suggestion after the act, or outright lies to garner attention, I fail to see why they should be taken at all seriously.

Ogan
True. The real thing must be experienced. As to lies and attention seeking, if we thought that there would be no history, as no one would have been believed at any time! You must have been surrounded with a lot of lying, attention seeking creeps – is there no one at all who's word you would trust? If not, I pity you.

Chrysippus
They seem to conform to cultural expectations.

Ogan
I agree with this up to a point, although I would add religious beliefs etc to them. My reason is compassion. If a Christian needed comfort, guidance and instruction during NDE, then the ‘Helpers' would appear as Jesus; if a Buddhist, as a Buddha; if a Moslem as Muhammad, etc, etc. Such is the Love of such beautiful beings awaiting YOUR arrival – unless you have distorted your being with evil, ugly thoughts, words and deeds throughout your Earthly pilgrimage.

Floid
There are many types of NDE that vary wildly. Some people see a review of their life (their memories), some people see a light, some people have a religious experience, some people have an out of body experience and most common of all... most people experience nothing.

Ogan
True. There is a mixed bag of phenomena, just as there is everyday in this life of ours – just ask a couple of witnesses of the same event and you will see what I mean. But this in no way says they were not Conscious during their witnessing!

Floid
So it seems this NDE could be a result of the mind still in action.

Ogan
The mind is certainly MORE in action when freed from the limitations of the brain.

Floid
So what is more likely, that when you die some mysterious substance are being that is inhabiting your body yet not limited to its functioning leaves the body and continuous experiences that you can later remember or that when you have a near death experience your brain is still functioning in some capacity creating a dream like situation?

Ogan
Do you realise what you have just said? Of course I agree, only I will name that ‘mysterious substance' as the true body of light which is not subject to decay, but is subject to the animal brain distortions when imprinting its new memories.

I do realise none of the above will help until any of you have a definite experience of real NDE, but no matter, you will have when going through the exit door.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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3/15/2011 3:25:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 3:15:43 PM, Ogan wrote:
Read, study and digest the report in the Lancet, then answer the letter to Dr Jeffery Long with your negative responses and request a defence of them from him.


Cowardice.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ogan
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3/15/2011 3:33:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 3:25:34 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/15/2011 3:15:43 PM, Ogan wrote:
Read, study and digest the report in the Lancet, then answer the letter to Dr Jeffery Long with your negative responses and request a defence of them from him.


Cowardice.

Do it!
Floid
Posts: 751
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3/15/2011 4:20:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ogan
Do you realise what you have just said? Of course I agree, only I will name that ‘mysterious substance' as the true body of light which is not subject to decay, but is subject to the animal brain distortions when imprinting its new memories.

So we are all filled with photons whose wave like properties occupy a certain frequency? How do you know the true body of light doesn't include microwaves or other frequencies of electromagnetic radiation.

What prevents the true body of light from being absorbed by the electrons in the atoms that make up our physical body?

How exactly do you know we have a "true body of light" and if we do have a "body of light" why isn't it measurable? We are very good at measuring light after all...
Ogan
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3/15/2011 5:08:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 4:20:19 PM, Floid wrote:
Ogan
Do you realise what you have just said? Of course I agree, only I will name that ‘mysterious substance' as the true body of light which is not subject to decay, but is subject to the animal brain distortions when imprinting its new memories.

So we are all filled with photons whose wave like properties occupy a certain frequency? How do you know the true body of light doesn't include microwaves or other frequencies of electromagnetic radiation.

What prevents the true body of light from being absorbed by the electrons in the atoms that make up our physical body?

How exactly do you know we have a "true body of light" and if we do have a "body of light" why isn't it measurable? We are very good at measuring light after all...

So we are all filled with photons whose wave like properties occupy a certain frequency? How do you know the true body of light doesn't include microwaves or other frequencies of electromagnetic radiation.

What prevents the true body of light from being absorbed by the electrons in the atoms that make up our physical body?

How exactly do you know we have a "true body of light" and if we do have a "body of light" why isn't it measurable? We are very good at measuring light after all...

Ogan:
So we are all filled with photons whose wave like properties occupy a certain frequency? How do you know the true body of light doesn't include microwaves or other frequencies of electromagnetic radiation.

What prevents the true body of light from being absorbed by the electrons in the atoms that make up our physical body?

How exactly do you know we have a "true body of light" and if we do have a "body of light" why isn't it measurable? We are very good at measuring light after all...

(a) To begin with I should thank you for your scientific approach to this – it is much appreciated. When I say ‘body of light' I only imply that it is star-like and shining. It is in fact made up of much more perfect ATOMS than we experience in our present set of material frequencies, and is of such radiance that is very difficult to describe, apart from calling it a ‘light-body', in fact the old term for it is ‘astral body' which means ‘star-like'. These atoms are called permanent atoms when they have reached a certain perfect frequency. There is far more connectedness between these bodies in the sense of a higher species of electro-magnetism etc, giving rise to a natural telepathy and almost instantaneous travel. Not sure about microwave connection.

(b) These above mentioned atoms are the ‘archetypes' of the more material atomic creations, which are therefore more like reflections of the former – just as a single note struck on a piano has measurable overtones and undertones. It is like the creation of a temporary living mask, as in a living drama for certain dramatic lessons. This will explain why material electrons etc, can have little influence upon them.

(c) I have, along with others, travelled in it much to my delight. How could we measure that which is beyond the scope of any instrument or physical sense?

What I have just described is merely a very limited approach to a quite wonderful revelation for us all. We are ALL far, far more than we will ever fully know – while we live here that is. I have not mentioned for instance the True Individual who occupies that body of light. The True Mind of each of us is a veritable Flame and never had a beginning and will never have an end. Some of these things have ‘leaked' out from the Ancient Teachings but have been utterly distorted by certain religions and philosophies. The Wheel turns once more upon its axis, and it is almost time for the Arcane Scientists (I am NOT one of these, but merely a humble Seeker) to once again spread the True Laws of these things among sincere Seekers; of a lasting Knowledge free from superstition and emotional nonsense. But I must say there are many, many truths left for us in all the ancient texts, but we must be extremely careful what we accept as Truth. Here's one simple truth from Lord Christna – the Light of the World.

"Never was there a time when I was not, nor thou, nor these lords of men; and never will there be a time when we shall cease to BE.
Ogan
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3/15/2011 5:15:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/14/2011 12:35:24 AM, Br33zy wrote:
"JustCallMeTarzan: Just because the body is dying doesn't necessarily mean the brain stops working."

Actually the death of the brain is why your body stops working. The heart provides oxygen which the brain requires to function. So if your heart stops, the oxygen levels drop very quickly.
The air we inhale is roughly 78% by volume nitrogen, 21% oxygen, 0.96% argon and 0.04% carbon dioxide, helium, water, and other gases.
The permanent gases in gas we exhale are roughly 4% to 5% more carbon dioxide and 4% to 5% less oxygen than was inhaled.

So once depleted of oxygen the brain cannot continue to operate the body. Which says to me that the brain dies right after the heart or the circulatory system fails. Then the rest of you quickly follows suit. I find it hard to believe that the brain we have studied would devote it's remaining energy to creating a vision as opposed to trying to repair the machine that is our body.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In my personal NDE, I was acutely aware of my surroundings, I recognized everyone but myself at first. I brought back with me a literal play by play of events, conversations, actions, and positions of onlookers and EMT's. Now this is not something I am proud of but I experimented with drugs in my youth. so I know what an hallucinatory experience is and what it feels like. I also know what a dream, a lucid dream, and night fear paralysis feels like. NDE is nothing like any of those which is probably why people find it hard to explain to some one who hasn't experienced it.

I was very aware of myself and felt the sensation of slowly rising, now I didn't get the full tour. There were no lights or divine voices, no renewed sense of purpose, however, there was a sense of enlightenment that I have maintained since that experience. I am not as high strung and I rarely over react to things. I am less materialistic, and more tolerant. I guess you could say I came back with more confidence and a kind of knowing. It's very hard to explain. I am just confident in the fact that there is something after this. And a kind of knowing that I can't explain. But I sure don't think I gained all that insight because some little part of my brain created it as it was dying to somehow comfort me, UNLESS, it has been programmed to do so as a means to ease your transition from one plain of existence to the next. If you are sent back from that journey, it means you have failed a few lessons and you aren't ready. Now is it one entity known as "GOD" that decides this? That for me is the essential question to which I do not yet have the answer. Because I believe the universe is filled with life, and considering how vast and ancient the universe is, there must be creatures who are far more evolved than we are. And I think that THEY are waiting to introduce us to whats next after we leave our bodies on Earth.

Thank you so much for that sincere report - it really is appreciated. You are truly a Good guy and well cared for!
Ogan
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3/16/2011 6:52:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/13/2011 3:56:43 PM, joneszj wrote:
If anyone has any links to information like that it would be much more interesting. Something that an individual could not have possibly known that is not subjective to what may be in their sub conscience.

Why not try searching through nderf.org and let us know if you find anyhting useful?
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/18/2011 5:13:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/12/2011 6:29:05 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
Would it not seem to make the idea of NDE a little suspect that science is getting closer and closer to reproducing an NDE with electric stimulation, drugs, etc...?

The inner workings of the brain are not well-known, even to modern science. There are some speculations, however, that the "tunnel of light" may be caused by synaptic noise as neurons die. The feeling of peacefulness - release of endorphins. Incoming perceptions? Just because the body is dying doesn't necessarily mean the brain stops working.

I feel the accounts of people who cannot see (hear, etc...) being able to do so in an NDE to be the most compelling. That said, I am curious how they know to describe what they saw/heard if they had never experienced that sense before.

IMO, the burden to prove NDE is anything more than the hallucinations of a dying brain, we need a good study that actually compares the experiences of a wide range of individuals but also takes into account the feelings of those who have had an induced NDE in a lab.

Unfortunately, many of the experiments that could really help understand this phenomenon would be deemed unethical...

If only you lived in Hitler's Germany.. Darn..
The Cross.. the Cross.
Ogan
Posts: 407
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3/18/2011 7:11:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 12:24:09 AM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 3/12/2011 1:44:12 PM, Ogan wrote:

This is now an open letter... any responses?

What do you interpret this letter to support?

Have a read of Dr Jeffrey Long's book review and especially the interview following it.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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3/18/2011 7:09:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm going to wait until later in the year when the results of the AWARE study are published.

This makes use of planted pictures and images in locations that would only be visible if the patient were really "out of body" rather than simply "believing" they are.

The brain is capable of some really weird stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org... for example which generally makes me careful about making the jump from "NDE's exist" to "NDE's proove the afterlife."
Ogan
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3/19/2011 7:05:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 7:09:03 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
I'm going to wait until later in the year when the results of the AWARE study are published.

This makes use of planted pictures and images in locations that would only be visible if the patient were really "out of body" rather than simply "believing" they are.

The brain is capable of some really weird stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org... for example which generally makes me careful about making the jump from "NDE's exist" to "NDE's prove the afterlife."

That's interesting Ramshutu, first time I have heard of the AWARE study. The seeing of these pictures from other locations to the body is not NDE though, it is an OBE. NDE can not be proven accept that it be experienced and then reported - unless there is a wealth of information given regarding future events which are later verified. But I feel skeptics will always come up with another reason of its non existence regardless of what evidence is presented - nothing short of experience will do for them. Those who have experienced NDE do not have to make any jump - they KNOW about the afterlife, whether they are able to prove it to skeptics or not.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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3/19/2011 1:39:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 7:05:38 AM, Ogan wrote:
At 3/18/2011 7:09:03 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
I'm going to wait until later in the year when the results of the AWARE study are published.

This makes use of planted pictures and images in locations that would only be visible if the patient were really "out of body" rather than simply "believing" they are.

The brain is capable of some really weird stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org... for example which generally makes me careful about making the jump from "NDE's exist" to "NDE's prove the afterlife."

That's interesting Ramshutu, first time I have heard of the AWARE study. The seeing of these pictures from other locations to the body is not NDE though, it is an OBE. NDE can not be proven accept that it be experienced and then reported - unless there is a wealth of information given regarding future events which are later verified. But I feel skeptics will always come up with another reason of its non existence regardless of what evidence is presented - nothing short of experience will do for them. Those who have experienced NDE do not have to make any jump - they KNOW about the afterlife, whether they are able to prove it to skeptics or not.

Question. You talked about how people who were having NDE's could describe what was happening in the emergency room. Could you give me examples of this? Any links? I am currently researching NDE's myself and would greatly appreciate the info.
Ogan
Posts: 407
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3/19/2011 2:44:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 1:39:13 PM, Dan4reason wrote:

Question. You talked about how people who were having NDE's could describe what was happening in the emergency room. Could you give me examples of this? Any links? I am currently researching NDE's myself and would greatly appreciate the info.

Sure. The largest website is nderf.org. This site is regularly updated and you should gain all the info you need. Good luck in your research.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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3/19/2011 2:57:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 7:05:38 AM, Ogan wrote:
At 3/18/2011 7:09:03 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
I'm going to wait until later in the year when the results of the AWARE study are published.

This makes use of planted pictures and images in locations that would only be visible if the patient were really "out of body" rather than simply "believing" they are.

The brain is capable of some really weird stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org... for example which generally makes me careful about making the jump from "NDE's exist" to "NDE's prove the afterlife."

That's interesting Ramshutu, first time I have heard of the AWARE study. The seeing of these pictures from other locations to the body is not NDE though, it is an OBE. NDE can not be proven accept that it be experienced and then reported - unless there is a wealth of information given regarding future events which are later verified. But I feel skeptics will always come up with another reason of its non existence regardless of what evidence is presented - nothing short of experience will do for them. Those who have experienced NDE do not have to make any jump - they KNOW about the afterlife, whether they are able to prove it to skeptics or not.

People who have been abdutcted by Aliens KNOW about being abudcted by aliens. So I tend to take such things with a pinch of salt; until there is some objective evidence.
Ogan
Posts: 407
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3/19/2011 3:12:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 2:57:55 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 3/19/2011 7:05:38 AM, Ogan wrote:
At 3/18/2011 7:09:03 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
I'm going to wait until later in the year when the results of the AWARE study are published.

This makes use of planted pictures and images in locations that would only be visible if the patient were really "out of body" rather than simply "believing" they are.

The brain is capable of some really weird stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org... for example which generally makes me careful about making the jump from "NDE's exist" to "NDE's prove the afterlife."

That's interesting Ramshutu, first time I have heard of the AWARE study. The seeing of these pictures from other locations to the body is not NDE though, it is an OBE. NDE can not be proven accept that it be experienced and then reported - unless there is a wealth of information given regarding future events which are later verified. But I feel skeptics will always come up with another reason of its non existence regardless of what evidence is presented - nothing short of experience will do for them. Those who have experienced NDE do not have to make any jump - they KNOW about the afterlife, whether they are able to prove it to skeptics or not.

People who have been abdutcted by Aliens KNOW about being abudcted by aliens. So I tend to take such things with a pinch of salt; until there is some objective evidence.

Don't know whether they KNOW in the sense that I mean. I KNOW that I am typing this to you for instance, and no one can persuade me otherwise; but NDE is a much more clarified and expansive KNOWING. There can be no 'objective' evidence of such things communicated from one to another. So I really do understand your 'pinch of salt' comment - how could it be otherwise?
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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3/20/2011 12:02:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/19/2011 7:05:38 AM, Ogan wrote:

NDE can not be proven accept that it be experienced and then reported

On what basis can you consider this to be knowledge, what metric are you using which allows NDE to be considered knowledge and at the same time rejects sighting of Bigfoot, Alien Abduction, secret government of Shape-Shifting Lizard's, etc.