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socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?
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Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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3/17/2011 10:48:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:

Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground.

Actually they don't, there are radical skeptics who don't believe we can know anything. Global communication will increase common ground but there will always be exceptions if nothing else than for the sake of being an exception.
tvellalott
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3/17/2011 10:49:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/17/2011 10:48:32 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:

Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground.

Actually they don't, there are radical skeptics who don't believe we can know anything. Global communication will increase common ground but there will always be exceptions if nothing else than for the sake of being an exception.

No, you're wrong.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/17/2011 10:54:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/17/2011 10:48:32 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:

Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground.

Actually they don't, there are radical skeptics who don't believe we can know anything. Global communication will increase common ground but there will always be exceptions if nothing else than for the sake of being an exception.

I'm a bit of a 'radical skeptic' but 2+2 still =4

the question is if 2's and 4's are simply products of OUR manner of thinking... Rather than "objectively" descriptive of the world.

there's really no getting around having the idea of 2's and 4's (or the relations between the number' inherent in the idea of them)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
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DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/18/2011 5:05:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No, there are those (like Pharaoh and Judas) who , even if they see a stone cold miracle will still not repent and turn to God..
The Cross.. the Cross.
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/18/2011 5:16:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 5:05:40 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No, there are those (like Pharaoh and Judas) who , even if they see a stone cold miracle will still not repent and turn to God..

Only because God made sure they couldn't turn to him. Hardening of hearts anyone?
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/18/2011 5:17:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Also I only believe that 2+2=4 under conventional mathematical axioms. It isn't necessarily true however, as we can, with equal validity, change those axioms.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/18/2011 5:23:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 5:16:29 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:05:40 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No, there are those (like Pharaoh and Judas) who , even if they see a stone cold miracle will still not repent and turn to God..

Only because God made sure they couldn't turn to him. Hardening of hearts anyone?

As God controls ALL reality, then as Pharaoh makes a decision it is God that hardens his heart which is STILL the result of Pharaohs decision..
The Cross.. the Cross.
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
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3/18/2011 7:13:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 5:23:17 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:16:29 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:05:40 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No, there are those (like Pharaoh and Judas) who , even if they see a stone cold miracle will still not repent and turn to God..

Only because God made sure they couldn't turn to him. Hardening of hearts anyone?

As God controls ALL reality, then as Pharaoh makes a decision it is God that hardens his heart which is STILL the result of Pharaohs decision..

What? So, god hardens pharaoh's heart, yet it's still pharaoh's choice? Can you run by me what that means?
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/18/2011 7:17:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 7:13:20 AM, Meatros wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:23:17 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:16:29 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:05:40 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No, there are those (like Pharaoh and Judas) who , even if they see a stone cold miracle will still not repent and turn to God..

Only because God made sure they couldn't turn to him. Hardening of hearts anyone?

As God controls ALL reality, then as Pharaoh makes a decision it is God that hardens his heart which is STILL the result of Pharaohs decision..

What? So, god hardens pharaoh's heart, yet it's still pharaoh's choice? Can you run by me what that means?

It is essentially, slightly perverse compatabalism. We have choice but god chooses our choices. It is wierd and only works under the strange set of rules that calvinists have laid out for their god. many people don't like it because it goes against every notion of justice we have. I find it no less perverse than any other form of christianity, because I don't believe in justice as an abstract, ethical idea.
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/18/2011 7:18:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 7:17:55 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/18/2011 7:13:20 AM, Meatros wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:23:17 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:16:29 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:05:40 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No, there are those (like Pharaoh and Judas) who , even if they see a stone cold miracle will still not repent and turn to God..

Only because God made sure they couldn't turn to him. Hardening of hearts anyone?

As God controls ALL reality, then as Pharaoh makes a decision it is God that hardens his heart which is STILL the result of Pharaohs decision..

What? So, god hardens pharaoh's heart, yet it's still pharaoh's choice? Can you run by me what that means?

It is essentially, slightly perverse compatabalism. We have choice but god chooses our choices. It is wierd and only works under the strange set of rules that calvinists have laid out for their god. many people don't like it because it goes against every notion of justice we have. I find it no less perverse than any other form of christianity, because I don't believe in justice as an abstract, ethical idea.

I hope I am not straw-manning by lableing it as compatibilism. I'd have thought it would be the strongest position for it to take anyway...
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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3/18/2011 7:49:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
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3/18/2011 7:57:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 7:17:55 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/18/2011 7:13:20 AM, Meatros wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:23:17 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:16:29 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:05:40 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No, there are those (like Pharaoh and Judas) who , even if they see a stone cold miracle will still not repent and turn to God..

Only because God made sure they couldn't turn to him. Hardening of hearts anyone?

As God controls ALL reality, then as Pharaoh makes a decision it is God that hardens his heart which is STILL the result of Pharaohs decision..

What? So, god hardens pharaoh's heart, yet it's still pharaoh's choice? Can you run by me what that means?

It is essentially, slightly perverse compatabalism. We have choice but god chooses our choices. It is wierd and only works under the strange set of rules that calvinists have laid out for their god. many people don't like it because it goes against every notion of justice we have. I find it no less perverse than any other form of christianity, because I don't believe in justice as an abstract, ethical idea.

The illusion of choice?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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3/18/2011 12:09:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No, you are spot on. We'll never come to agreement.

People argue over this stuff all the time, and often times have different understandings of the words involved, which shatters any possibility of meaningful communication. Stupid people cling so hard to the word itself, to the point that they will not accept any other definition that the person using it gives it. The intelligent person should just roll with the stupid person's definition, because when it comes right down to it.. You are supposed to be debating MEANING not semantics.

If the other person says, "No, you aren't understanding what it is I'm saying.". Even if you do, give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe some miscommunication is going on. If you are unsure what the other person is saying, ask them to clarify. Be slow to judge, otherwise, you not only look stupid, but you also are closing yourself up to learning something. You can learn even from someone you think is stupid.

Most of communication is simply making sure that you and the person you are communicating with are on the same page. During any discussion, people should take the time to make sure that not only are they talking about the same thing, but they also understand each other.

From my own observations, people tend to talk at each other, and react rather than respond. They are often times thinking about what they are going to say next. Watching two people making an attempt at communication is more of a comedy to me than anything. It is almost futile to try to convince anyone of anything, as it seems that there are few people who are receptive to their own thoughts being wrong. People tend to only agree with you if they already agreed with you coming into the conversation.

Humanity as a whole will probably never find common ground. We'll kill ourselves or create an intelligence that replaces us as the dominant species before that happens.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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3/18/2011 12:51:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

As far as theistic beliefs go, they will never agree with each other because they are, by definition arbitrary. That's to say, if you have 1000 isolated societies you will get 1000 different religions each making different, random claims about how the world works.

The way out of the mess of (theistic or non-theistic) incompatible beliefs is through debate. Debate has a way of forcing evidence into people's evaluation of what is true and not true. When our minds are forced to cohere to reality then we will start to agree on things that are important to us since there is apparently only one reality.

Note that this process may take some time though.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

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Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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3/18/2011 2:27:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 5:05:40 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No, there are those (like Pharaoh and Judas) who , even if they see a stone cold miracle will still not repent and turn to God..

Some people just unquestioningly and inerrantly beleive stuff to the point of mental illness. Pharaoh, Jesus, Some Atheists, You, Conspiracy theorists, Left wing looneys, Right wing nut jobs, Islamists, Nazi's, Racists, etc, etc.

The underlying thread woven through the very fabric of human history is that people are gullible and can, with the correct prompting, believe unswervingly in utter rubbish as if it was the Gods honest truth.

Some of my Atheist compatriots beleive that Religion is a major cause of suffering and death; but I would actually go deeper than that. It's "peoples" inherant inability stand up and say "woah, hold on a minute there... That makes no f***ing sense at all; take that rope off the tree and stfu." Is why human history is littered with death, war and destruction.

This is one of the reasons I am happier following a path of rational thought and self-analysis over one that encourages and even glorifies people who turn off their brain. Although I can appreciate that with brain off, it is far easier to get them to hand over their wallet.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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3/19/2011 8:41:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 5:17:45 AM, Thaddeus wrote:

Also I only believe that 2+2=4 under conventional mathematical axioms. It isn't necessarily true however, as we can, with equal validity, change those axioms.

Yes, but that is not how a skeptic would refute the statement as it is implicit in the claim that a specific set of axioms are being used. However one could reject the ideal of knowledge entirely, or something as basic as the law of identity which would make proving 2+2 = 4 impossible.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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3/19/2011 8:53:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 7:17:55 AM, Thaddeus wrote:

It is wierd and only works under the strange set of rules that calvinists have laid out for their god.

They don't believe some are like that, but all are like that, that no one has the ability to turn to God as all are under the taint of original sin. It is only those that God chooses to save that are saved, and further that he chooses not on the nature of man nor on the future nature of man as again all man are born tainted. Further when he chooses (for purposes unrevealed) there is no ability to be not saved. Thus if God had chosen to save Judas then Judas would have been saved, once called into the grace of God there is no ability to deny it - faith is total.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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3/19/2011 9:19:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 5:23:17 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:16:29 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:05:40 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No, there are those (like Pharaoh and Judas) who , even if they see a stone cold miracle will still not repent and turn to God..

Only because God made sure they couldn't turn to him. Hardening of hearts anyone?

As God controls ALL reality, then as Pharaoh makes a decision it is God that hardens his heart which is STILL the result of Pharaohs decision..

DAT I thought you were not a Calvinist?
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/21/2011 5:52:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/18/2011 7:13:20 AM, Meatros wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:23:17 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:16:29 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:05:40 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No, there are those (like Pharaoh and Judas) who , even if they see a stone cold miracle will still not repent and turn to God..

Only because God made sure they couldn't turn to him. Hardening of hearts anyone?

As God controls ALL reality, then as Pharaoh makes a decision it is God that hardens his heart which is STILL the result of Pharaohs decision..

What? So, god hardens pharaoh's heart, yet it's still pharaoh's choice? Can you run by me what that means?

Pharoahs heart was hardened because of his choices.. this prevented him from making further choices that would have twarted God's plan..
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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3/21/2011 5:55:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/21/2011 5:52:42 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 7:13:20 AM, Meatros wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:23:17 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:16:29 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:05:40 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No, there are those (like Pharaoh and Judas) who , even if they see a stone cold miracle will still not repent and turn to God..

Only because God made sure they couldn't turn to him. Hardening of hearts anyone?

As God controls ALL reality, then as Pharaoh makes a decision it is God that hardens his heart which is STILL the result of Pharaohs decision..

What? So, god hardens pharaoh's heart, yet it's still pharaoh's choice? Can you run by me what that means?

Pharoahs heart was hardened because of his choices.. this prevented him from making further choices that would have twarted God's plan..

So Pharoah did not have free will. Free will is irrelevant anyway as we can not choose God. Salvation is entirely down to the will of God. (This is your theology).
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/21/2011 6:04:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/21/2011 5:55:15 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/21/2011 5:52:42 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 7:13:20 AM, Meatros wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:23:17 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:16:29 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:05:40 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No, there are those (like Pharaoh and Judas) who , even if they see a stone cold miracle will still not repent and turn to God..

Only because God made sure they couldn't turn to him. Hardening of hearts anyone?

As God controls ALL reality, then as Pharaoh makes a decision it is God that hardens his heart which is STILL the result of Pharaohs decision..

What? So, god hardens pharaohs heart, yet it's still pharaohs choice? Can you run by me what that means?

Pharaohs heart was hardened because of his choices.. this prevented him from making further choices that would have thwarted God's plan..

So Pharaoh did not have free will. Free will is irrelevant anyway as we can not choose God. Salvation is entirely down to the will of God. (This is your theology).

No, he chose to make decisions that would lead to his heart being hardened, with less choice as a result.

We are the sum of our choices; we may choose (with our own free will) to take a factory job on leaving school which will then limit our further choices.. OR we may choose to go to college which will then give us many more choices upon graduation..

So our choices, our free will, can either lead to greater freedom or less: which the O.T renders 'God hardened his heart'..
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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3/21/2011 6:07:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/21/2011 6:04:26 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/21/2011 5:55:15 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/21/2011 5:52:42 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 7:13:20 AM, Meatros wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:23:17 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:16:29 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:05:40 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No, there are those (like Pharaoh and Judas) who , even if they see a stone cold miracle will still not repent and turn to God..

Only because God made sure they couldn't turn to him. Hardening of hearts anyone?

As God controls ALL reality, then as Pharaoh makes a decision it is God that hardens his heart which is STILL the result of Pharaohs decision..

What? So, god hardens pharaohs heart, yet it's still pharaohs choice? Can you run by me what that means?

Pharaohs heart was hardened because of his choices.. this prevented him from making further choices that would have thwarted God's plan..

So Pharaoh did not have free will. Free will is irrelevant anyway as we can not choose God. Salvation is entirely down to the will of God. (This is your theology).

No, he chose to make decisions that would lead to his heart being hardened, with less choice as a result.

Where does it say that in the bible? It sounds like you are just making it up as you go along.

We are the sum of our choices; we may choose (with our own free will) to take a factory job on leaving school which will then limit our further choices.. OR we may choose to go to college which will then give us many more choices upon graduation..

So our choices, our free will, can either lead to greater freedom or less: which the O.T renders 'God hardened his heart'..

Seems like you are cluctching at straws.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/21/2011 6:11:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/21/2011 6:07:59 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/21/2011 6:04:26 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/21/2011 5:55:15 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/21/2011 5:52:42 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 7:13:20 AM, Meatros wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:23:17 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:16:29 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:05:40 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No, there are those (like Pharaoh and Judas) who , even if they see a stone cold miracle will still not repent and turn to God..

Only because God made sure they couldn't turn to him. Hardening of hearts anyone?

As God controls ALL reality, then as Pharaoh makes a decision it is God that hardens his heart which is STILL the result of Pharaohs decision..

What? So, god hardens pharaohs heart, yet it's still pharaohs choice? Can you run by me what that means?

Pharaohs heart was hardened because of his choices.. this prevented him from making further choices that would have thwarted God's plan..

So Pharaoh did not have free will. Free will is irrelevant anyway as we can not choose God. Salvation is entirely down to the will of God. (This is your theology).

No, he chose to make decisions that would lead to his heart being hardened, with less choice as a result.

Where does it say that in the bible? It sounds like you are just making it up as you go along.

Eveybody is making up everything as they go along BASED on the information they have.. read it for yourself.

We are the sum of our choices; we may choose (with our own free will) to take a factory job on leaving school which will then limit our further choices.. OR we may choose to go to college which will then give us many more choices upon graduation..

So our choices, our free will, can either lead to greater freedom or less: which the O.T renders 'God hardened his heart'..

Seems like you are cluctching at straws.

No, it's how EVERYTHING works!
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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3/21/2011 6:16:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/21/2011 6:11:00 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/21/2011 6:07:59 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/21/2011 6:04:26 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/21/2011 5:55:15 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/21/2011 5:52:42 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 7:13:20 AM, Meatros wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:23:17 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:16:29 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/18/2011 5:05:40 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

No, there are those (like Pharaoh and Judas) who , even if they see a stone cold miracle will still not repent and turn to God..

Only because God made sure they couldn't turn to him. Hardening of hearts anyone?

As God controls ALL reality, then as Pharaoh makes a decision it is God that hardens his heart which is STILL the result of Pharaohs decision..

What? So, god hardens pharaohs heart, yet it's still pharaohs choice? Can you run by me what that means?

Pharaohs heart was hardened because of his choices.. this prevented him from making further choices that would have thwarted God's plan..

So Pharaoh did not have free will. Free will is irrelevant anyway as we can not choose God. Salvation is entirely down to the will of God. (This is your theology).

No, he chose to make decisions that would lead to his heart being hardened, with less choice as a result.

Where does it say that in the bible? It sounds like you are just making it up as you go along.

Eveybody is making up everything as they go along BASED on the information they have.. read it for yourself.

We are the sum of our choices; we may choose (with our own free will) to take a factory job on leaving school which will then limit our further choices.. OR we may choose to go to college which will then give us many more choices upon graduation..

So our choices, our free will, can either lead to greater freedom or less: which the O.T renders 'God hardened his heart'..

Seems like you are cluctching at straws.

No, it's how EVERYTHING works!

Where in the bible is this view of free will explained?

You see I am bit tired of evasive Christians such as yourself, that make up theology as you go along.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cliff.Stamp
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3/21/2011 7:20:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/21/2011 6:16:15 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

Where in the bible is this view of free will explained?

The various views on free will are developed by theologians to match various aspects of God as noted in the bible. Any search will turn up the references by which the propeties are explained. For example total depravity is supported by Isaiah 64:6, John 6:64-65, etc. which leads right into uncondiional election, and irrestible grace from John 6:37,39, etc. . All of this is easily sourced on the internet or any introductory text on that particular philosophy of free will.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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3/21/2011 7:23:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/21/2011 7:20:37 AM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 3/21/2011 6:16:15 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

Where in the bible is this view of free will explained?

The various views on free will are developed by theologians to match various aspects of God as noted in the bible. Any search will turn up the references by which the propeties are explained. For example total depravity is supported by Isaiah 64:6, John 6:64-65, etc. which leads right into uncondiional election, and irrestible grace from John 6:37,39, etc. . All of this is easily sourced on the internet or any introductory text on that particular philosophy of free will.

I am not asking for all passages that can be corrupted into commetary on some aspect of free will, but for the specific passage which supports Datchmoto.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Charles0103
Posts: 523
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3/21/2011 5:30:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/17/2011 10:28:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Will all the different theistic and atheistic belief systems ever be able to find enough common ground to come up in agreement? Everyone believes that 2+2=4 because we have common ground. We agree as to the definitions of 2 and 4 and agree on the principle of addition. It's way different with religion. Theistic and atheistic systems don't agree on what 2 means, if addition exists, or what color 4 is.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever come to agreement but what does everyone on this site think? Is there hope?

I think theism and science can go hand in hand to an extent. I'm a strong Christian and I believe in evolution.

However, in terms of God's existence and Jesus's divinity, I doubt it. Some people just won't ever repent unless they look Jesus in the eye walking on water and for some others, they wouldn't repent even if they did see Jesus walking on water or raising the dead becuase they don't want a God to exist. I think a good majority of people are afraid of God's existence just for the sake that they're ashamed of what they've done.

Well, that's my religious ramblings for the day.
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus in Luke 11:9-10
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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3/22/2011 12:11:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/21/2011 7:23:28 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

I am not asking for all passages that can be corrupted into commetary on some aspect of free will, but for the specific passage which supports Datchmoto.

The formal terms I used are the position thus advocated.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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3/22/2011 12:12:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/21/2011 5:30:41 PM, Charles0103 wrote:

I think a good majority of people are afraid of God's existence just for the sake that they're ashamed of what they've done.

That is like saying theists are simply afraid of dying alone.