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Things that exist without a cause, eg God

Illegalcombatant
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3/22/2011 10:15:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
In classic theism God does not have a cause.

Why can only "God" be the only thing that exists uncaused, why can't there be other things that exist without a cause ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Cliff.Stamp
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3/22/2011 10:19:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 10:15:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
In classic theism God does not have a cause.

Why can only "God" be the only thing that exists uncaused, why can't there be other things that exist without a cause ?

There can be, who argues otherwise?
popculturepooka
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3/22/2011 10:27:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 10:15:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
In classic theism God does not have a cause.

Why can only "God" be the only thing that exists uncaused, why can't there be other things that exist without a cause ?

No one ever said there can't other things without causes.
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GeoLaureate8
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3/22/2011 10:30:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 10:15:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
In classic theism God does not have a cause.

Why can only "God" be the only thing that exists uncaused, why can't there be other things that exist without a cause ?

The argument is that God is uncaused, they don't say ONLY God is uncaused.
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popculturepooka
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3/22/2011 10:35:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 10:27:20 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/22/2011 10:15:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
In classic theism God does not have a cause.

Why can only "God" be the only thing that exists uncaused, why can't there be other things that exist without a cause ?

No one ever said there can't be other things without causes.

Fix'd
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tvellalott
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3/22/2011 10:46:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 10:35:58 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/22/2011 10:27:20 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/22/2011 10:15:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
In classic theism God does not have a cause.

Why can only "God" be the only thing that exists uncaused, why can't there be other things that exist without a cause ?

No one ever said there can't be other things without causes.

Fix'd

Wait, what?
Doesn't the Kalam Cosmological Argument say that the uncaused cause that transcends physical reality is God?
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socialpinko
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3/22/2011 10:49:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 10:15:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
In classic theism God does not have a cause.

Why can only "God" be the only thing that exists uncaused, why can't there be other things that exist without a cause ?

The cosmological argument does not state that god can be the only thing without a cause. In fact one of the most popular arguments against the cosmological argument is that time and space are constructs of the universe itself. Therefore, for the same reason god does not need a cause, the universe does not need a cause.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
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mattrodstrom
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3/22/2011 10:57:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The real question is:
"Why does anyone think that there is a Conscious, Benevolent, all-powerful, uncaused thing which caused the world"

and the answer is they're desperate nihilists looking for something to give themselves up to so they latch onto the idea of a "super" version of themselves whom they can imagine they please in their self-rejection... b/c they know that simply rejecting themselves, as they're wont to do, is on it's own simply sad...

of course, giving yourself up to "god" is at least as sad... but, in their delusions they might kind of get around being conscious of That!..

They just have to deal with the constant "struggle" that that self-rejection entails.. which they backwardsly describe as struggling with sin.. That is they struggle until they've completely stomped themselves dead and replaced themselves with their own Mock up of that delusion of "Most Omni-Perfectiness"
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
socialpinko
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3/22/2011 11:00:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 10:57:31 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
The real question is:
"Why does anyone think that there is a Conscious, Benevolent, all-powerful, uncaused thing which caused the world"

and the answer is they're desperate nihilists looking for something to give themselves up to so they latch onto the idea of a "super" version of themselves whom they can imagine they please in their self-rejection... b/c they know that simply rejecting themselves, as they're wont to do, is on it's own simply sad...

of course, giving yourself up to "god" is at least as sad... but, in their delusions they might kind of get around being conscious of That!..

They just have to deal with the constant "struggle" that that self-rejection entails.. which they backwardsly describe as struggling with sin.. That is they struggle until they've completely stomped themselves dead and replaced themselves with their own Mock up of that delusion of "Most Omni-Perfectiness"

LOL
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Illegalcombatant
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3/23/2011 12:17:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
So is their anyone who thinks ONLY God is uncaused ? and everything else is caused ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Jay_Walk
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3/23/2011 1:40:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 12:17:38 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
So is their anyone who thinks ONLY God is uncaused ? and everything else is caused ?

What do you believe is uncaused?
tvellalott
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3/23/2011 1:50:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 12:17:38 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
So is their anyone who thinks ONLY God is uncaused ? and everything else is caused ?

If anything else is uncaused, than it's hardly an attribute worth attributing to God.
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mattrodstrom
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3/23/2011 4:54:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 12:17:38 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
So is their anyone who thinks ONLY God is uncaused ? and everything else is caused ?

I'm pretty sure a lot of the Classical religious philosophers would have said so...

but I guess it's been dropped.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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3/23/2011 4:56:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 4:54:20 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/23/2011 12:17:38 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
So is their anyone who thinks ONLY God is uncaused ? and everything else is caused ?

I'm pretty sure a lot of the Classical religious philosophers would have said so...

but I guess it's been dropped.

or PCP's just dropped it :/

who knows!? not Me!
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
DATCMOTO
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3/23/2011 5:54:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 10:15:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
In classic theism God does not have a cause.

Why can only "God" be the only thing that exists uncaused, why can't there be other things that exist without a cause ?

A cause, or a 'before', denotes time; time is an invention of Gods Who exists eternally, outside of His creation which includes time..
The Cross.. the Cross.
popculturepooka
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3/23/2011 8:20:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 4:56:01 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/23/2011 4:54:20 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/23/2011 12:17:38 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
So is their anyone who thinks ONLY God is uncaused ? and everything else is caused ?

I'm pretty sure a lot of the Classical religious philosophers would have said so...

but I guess it's been dropped.

or PCP's just dropped it :/

who knows!? not Me!

I've never held that position in the first place and neither have many classical religious philosophers so I have no idea what you are talking about.
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badger
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3/23/2011 8:37:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 10:30:37 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/22/2011 10:15:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
In classic theism God does not have a cause.

Why can only "God" be the only thing that exists uncaused, why can't there be other things that exist without a cause ?

The argument is that God is uncaused, they don't say ONLY God is uncaused.

...amm, isn't the argument that the universe must've had a cause and then an uncaused god is posited? lol only god can be uncaused! by the argument anyway.. and the universe isn't god! also by the argument..

what argument?
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mattrodstrom
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3/23/2011 8:40:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 8:20:31 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/23/2011 4:56:01 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/23/2011 4:54:20 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/23/2011 12:17:38 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
So is their anyone who thinks ONLY God is uncaused ? and everything else is caused ?

I'm pretty sure a lot of the Classical religious philosophers would have said so...

but I guess it's been dropped.

or PCP's just dropped it :/

who knows!? not Me!

I've never held that position in the first place and neither have many classical religious philosophers so I have no idea what you are talking about.

I didn't mean that you held it.. I mean that They did...

and that you, and others, who follow in their footsteps, don't carry it anymore..

and.. I was under the impression that Christianity itself suggests that God created ALL things.. and was the Sole uncaused thing...

and it seems that most platonic religious philosophers, from Maimonides to Augustine, were trying to support the same notion of a Single, Most-Existent, thing which causes All others.

Though I suppose several may have ignored refuting the possibility for Other uncaused things... I'm fairly sure at least some of them claimed that God was the Only uncaused, and Only necessary being.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
askbob
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3/23/2011 8:45:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 10:15:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
In classic theism God does not have a cause.

Why can only "God" be the only thing that exists uncaused, why can't there be other things that exist without a cause ?

unmoved mover theory
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askbob
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3/23/2011 8:49:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Aristotle's argument, in Metaphysics Book XII for the existence of the unmoved mover progresses as follows:

1. There exists movement in the world.
2. Things that move were set into motion by something else.
3. If everything that moves were caused to move by something else, there would be an infinite chain of causes. This can't happen.
4. Thus, there must have been something that caused the first movement.
5. From 3, this first cause cannot itself have been moved.
6. From 4, there must be an unmoved mover.
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Thaddeus
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3/23/2011 8:51:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 8:49:33 AM, askbob wrote:
Aristotle's argument, in Metaphysics Book XII for the existence of the unmoved mover progresses as follows:

1. There exists movement in the world.
2. Things that move were set into motion by something else.
3. If everything that moves were caused to move by something else, there would be an infinite chain of causes. This can't happen.
4. Thus, there must have been something that caused the first movement.
5. From 3, this first cause cannot itself have been moved.
6. From 4, there must be an unmoved mover.

Why can't we have an infinite chain of causes?
mattrodstrom
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3/23/2011 8:52:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 8:40:08 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I'm fairly sure at least some of them claimed that God was the Only uncaused, and Only necessary being.

like Augustine Saying that ALL is of the Good.

there's no possibility of Evil being a thing of itself.. b/c All is of God...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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3/23/2011 9:09:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 8:52:56 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/23/2011 8:40:08 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I'm fairly sure at least some of them claimed that God was the Only uncaused, and Only necessary being.

like Augustine Saying that ALL is of the Good.

there's no possibility of Evil being a thing of itself.. b/c All is of God...

From what I can tell his rejection of Manicheism relied completely on rejecting the idea of Multiple uncaused things.

it relied on borrowing plotinus' idea of The One
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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3/23/2011 9:20:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 9:09:37 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
it relied on borrowing plotinus' idea of The One

and calling it "god"
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
askbob
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3/23/2011 9:27:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 8:51:21 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Why can't we have an infinite chain of causes?

Beginning ------------------------Infinity --------------------------- Present Day

Starting at the beginning it would then be impossible to arrive at present day.
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Fatihah
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3/23/2011 9:30:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 10:15:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
In classic theism God does not have a cause.

Why can only "God" be the only thing that exists uncaused, why can't there be other things that exist without a cause ?

Response: Simply for the same reasons why dogs can't fly. You can not be or do what is not in your nature or ability to be or do. Allah(God) is the only uncreated....period. There is no reason for it. It's how it is. As such, no other thing can exist without cause but can only exist due to cause except Allah.
Thaddeus
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3/23/2011 9:35:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 9:27:23 AM, askbob wrote:
At 3/23/2011 8:51:21 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Why can't we have an infinite chain of causes?

Beginning ------------------------Infinity --------------------------- Present Day

Starting at the beginning it would then be impossible to arrive at present day.

But that makes the assumption that there was a beggining. I see what you are getting at but I want to know why, and that doesn't adequately explain it.
mattrodstrom
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3/23/2011 9:43:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/23/2011 9:27:23 AM, askbob wrote:
At 3/23/2011 8:51:21 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Why can't we have an infinite chain of causes?

Beginning ------------------------Infinity --------------------------- Present Day

Starting at the beginning it would then be impossible to arrive at present day.

how about this:

Infinity (Present/past/future in all their infinite relations All together)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Thaddeus
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3/23/2011 9:51:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
- is the past, which keeps regressing infinitely (-1,-2,-3 etc)
0 is the present
+ is the future (1,2,3)

-----------------------------------------------0+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Cliff.Stamp
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3/23/2011 9:52:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/22/2011 10:46:21 PM, tvellalott wrote:

Doesn't the Kalam Cosmological Argument say that the uncaused cause that transcends physical reality is God?

It notes that there has to be an uncaused causal agent, that is all. If you want to see a full argument for God which includes being specific right to Christianity then William Craig makes such an argument. He starts with the Kalam and carries through arguing for omni-excellent via other argument and ends with Jesus as a divine historical event/figure.