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Free will and the Bible..

DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/24/2011 6:53:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The Bible clearly teaches that all choices begin in our hearts, which are controlled (minded) by our minds, and which are then legimitmised by our words and finally conscecrated in our actions;

Proverbs 4:23
Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.

Matthew 9:4
Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?

2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Psalm 19:14
May these words of my mouth and this meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

James 3:2 2 We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.

So, free will is a series of choice that flow FROM the heart outwards.. IF you do not control your thoughts then your words and actions will follow from the..
The Cross.. the Cross.
Floid
Posts: 751
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3/24/2011 7:08:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
"The Bible clearly teaches that all choices begin in our hearts, which are controlled (minded) by our minds, and which are then legimitmised by our words and finally conscecrated in our actions"

Considering my heart is a muscle whose contractions are controlled by my brain I will disagree with the Bible on this one and say that nothing begins with my heart.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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3/24/2011 7:46:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/24/2011 7:08:59 AM, Floid wrote:

Considering my heart is a muscle whose contractions are controlled by my brain I will disagree with the Bible on this one and say that nothing begins with my heart.

That is because you have the heart of an atheist and have no soul.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/25/2011 5:52:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/24/2011 7:08:59 AM, Floid wrote:
"The Bible clearly teaches that all choices begin in our hearts, which are controlled (minded) by our minds, and which are then legimitmised by our words and finally conscecrated in our actions"

Considering my heart is a muscle whose contractions are controlled by my brain I will disagree with the Bible on this one and say that nothing begins with my heart.

Ah.. what an almost amusing misunderstanding..

I was of course referring to the central, secret self.. your central, secret self that knew I was referring to the central secret self!
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/28/2011 5:55:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/24/2011 6:53:53 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
The Bible clearly teaches that all choices begin in our hearts, which are controlled (minded) by our minds, and which are then legimitmised by our words and finally conscecrated in our actions;

Proverbs 4:23
Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.

Matthew 9:4
Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?

2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Psalm 19:14
May these words of my mouth and this meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

James 3:2 2 We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.

So, free will is a series of choice that flow FROM the heart outwards.. IF you do not control your thoughts then your words and actions will follow from the..

This is really for C_N..
The Cross.. the Cross.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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3/28/2011 10:52:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
If "omniscient" means "knows the future for certain" - then if God exists, free will does not.

Further, your actions are controlled entirely by chemicals - the body is a machine, albeit a very complex machine. Determinism FTW.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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3/28/2011 12:15:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/24/2011 7:08:59 AM, Floid wrote:
"The Bible clearly teaches that all choices begin in our hearts, which are controlled (minded) by our minds, and which are then legimitmised by our words and finally conscecrated in our actions"

Considering my heart is a muscle whose contractions are controlled by my brain I will disagree with the Bible on this one and say that nothing begins with my heart.

To be fair, he actually did say your heart is controlled by your brain.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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3/28/2011 12:28:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/28/2011 12:15:20 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 3/24/2011 7:08:59 AM, Floid wrote:
"The Bible clearly teaches that all choices begin in our hearts,which are controlled (minded) by our minds, and which are then legimitmised by our words and finally conscecrated in our actions"

Considering my heart is a muscle whose contractions are controlled by my brain I will disagree with the Bible on this one and say that nothing begins with my heart.

To be fair, he actually did say your heart is controlled by your brain.

He also said we use a muscle used to pump blood to make decisions. Confusing much.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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3/28/2011 12:35:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/28/2011 12:28:09 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 3/28/2011 12:15:20 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 3/24/2011 7:08:59 AM, Floid wrote:
"The Bible clearly teaches that all choices begin in our hearts,which are controlled (minded) by our minds, and which are then legimitmised by our words and finally conscecrated in our actions"

Considering my heart is a muscle whose contractions are controlled by my brain I will disagree with the Bible on this one and say that nothing begins with my heart.

To be fair, he actually did say your heart is controlled by your brain.

He also said we use a muscle used to pump blood to make decisions. Confusing much.

Only if your retarded. It's pretty easy for intelligent people to pick up on context that he means more by 'heart' than a chunk of cardiac tissue.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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3/28/2011 1:05:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/28/2011 12:35:12 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 3/28/2011 12:28:09 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 3/28/2011 12:15:20 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 3/24/2011 7:08:59 AM, Floid wrote:
"The Bible clearly teaches that all choices begin in our hearts,which are controlled (minded) by our minds, and which are then legimitmised by our words and finally conscecrated in our actions"

Considering my heart is a muscle whose contractions are controlled by my brain I will disagree with the Bible on this one and say that nothing begins with my heart.

To be fair, he actually did say your heart is controlled by your brain.

He also said we use a muscle used to pump blood to make decisions. Confusing much.

Only if your retarded. It's pretty easy for intelligent people to pick up on context that he means more by 'heart' than a chunk of cardiac tissue.

I'm reading the same thing you're reading. DATCMOTO is a biblical literalist and as such I shall take everything he says literally.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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3/28/2011 1:19:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/28/2011 1:05:49 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 3/28/2011 12:35:12 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 3/28/2011 12:28:09 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 3/28/2011 12:15:20 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 3/24/2011 7:08:59 AM, Floid wrote:
"The Bible clearly teaches that all choices begin in our hearts,which are controlled (minded) by our minds, and which are then legimitmised by our words and finally conscecrated in our actions"

Considering my heart is a muscle whose contractions are controlled by my brain I will disagree with the Bible on this one and say that nothing begins with my heart.

To be fair, he actually did say your heart is controlled by your brain.

He also said we use a muscle used to pump blood to make decisions. Confusing much.

Only if your retarded. It's pretty easy for intelligent people to pick up on context that he means more by 'heart' than a chunk of cardiac tissue.

I'm reading the same thing you're reading. DATCMOTO is a biblical literalist and as such I shall take everything he says literally.

And why not? Would Jesus have meant the actual muscle. My understanding is that the ancients weren't clear on where information and emotions were processed in humans so perhaps he was referring to the actual muscle.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/28/2011 1:31:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/24/2011 6:53:53 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
The Bible clearly teaches that all choices begin in our hearts, which are controlled (minded) by our minds, and which are then legimitmised by our words and finally conscecrated in our actions;

Proverbs 4:23
Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.

I agree that all your decisions flow from your heart..
They follow from your spontaneous Emotive cares

Matthew 9:4
Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?

well.. what I feel is what I feel... Why the feelings come.. I don't know precisely (though I assume it's to do with the make-up of my brain and stuff)

2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

the cares of my heart come as they do.. If they're in line with those of christ.. they are..

If not.. Not. You can't make yourself care (though, in delusion, you can pretend to yourself that you do), you do, or do not.

Psalm 19:14
May these words of my mouth and this meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

be pleasing to God's heart?

well... if your heart aligns with his he might like that... but there's no particular reason for You to want your heart to align with his...

As the first quote says: EVERYTHING you do flows from your heart...

There's no Trying to be in alignment with god..
There's no reason to want your heart to be so...

If your heart is such that you care in the way God does... then your heart aligns with god.. if not, not.

James 3:2 2 We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.
So, free will is a series of choice that flow FROM the heart outwards.. IF you do not control your thoughts then your words and actions will follow from the..

Your thoughts as to what should happen flow from what you care about.. what lies in your heart.

there's no need to Filter such things.. No need to Regulate which thoughts can occur.. no need to Throw away certain cares of your heart..

just to fit your thoughts together to be coherent... to take all your cares into consideration.. Act with All your heart... not actively chipping away your heart through favoring those cares in Alignment with "God" or something.

one ought to guard their heart from self-mutilation engendered by Pessimistic, self-rejecting Nihilism.

In trying to manipulate Your Heart to be like that of God's you're NOT guarding your heart... Your Tossing it.. and replacing it with a rotten old book.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
PervRat
Posts: 963
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3/28/2011 11:45:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Threatening someone with harm -- and eternal damnation in hell is certainly harm -- eliminates any possibility of free will. Furthering that by indoctrinating children, before they can think and reason for themselves, into such a belief system so that they view it as 'normal' and all alternatives as alien, decimates any remaining possibility of free will so that only an exceptional being in exceptional circumstances would truly have the freedom to walk a different path.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/29/2011 3:51:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/28/2011 10:52:13 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
If "omniscient" means "knows the future for certain" - then if God exists, free will does not.

Further, your actions are controlled entirely by chemicals - the body is a machine, albeit a very complex machine. Determinism FTW.

If I offer you a completely free, no strings, One Million Dollars I know you're going to take it..
That in no way negates the fact that you still had a choice.
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/29/2011 3:54:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/28/2011 11:45:22 PM, PervRat wrote:
Threatening someone with harm -- and eternal damnation in hell is certainly harm -- eliminates any possibility of free will. Furthering that by indoctrinating children, before they can think and reason for themselves, into such a belief system so that they view it as 'normal' and all alternatives as alien, decimates any remaining possibility of free will so that only an exceptional being in exceptional circumstances would truly have the freedom to walk a different path.

Hell is the REMOVAL of the love and safety that He provides for you every day.. that we all enjoy without thanking Him; THIS is tresspassing against Him.
The Cross.. the Cross.
PervRat
Posts: 963
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3/29/2011 4:06:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 3:54:35 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/28/2011 11:45:22 PM, PervRat wrote:
Threatening someone with harm -- and eternal damnation in hell is certainly harm -- eliminates any possibility of free will. Furthering that by indoctrinating children, before they can think and reason for themselves, into such a belief system so that they view it as 'normal' and all alternatives as alien, decimates any remaining possibility of free will so that only an exceptional being in exceptional circumstances would truly have the freedom to walk a different path.

Hell is the REMOVAL of the love and safety that He provides for you every day.. that we all enjoy without thanking Him; THIS is tresspassing against Him.

If I told and convinced you that you would burn in hell for all eternity if you did not perform an "I'm a little teapot" skit, that pretty much kills your free will.

And if Hell is the REMOVAL of love and safety, then Hell would be the radicalized, homophobic Christian who shot at me, and pretty much every radicalized, homophobic Christian.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/29/2011 4:07:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/28/2011 1:31:21 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/24/2011 6:53:53 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
The Bible clearly teaches that all choices begin in our hearts, which are controlled (minded) by our minds, and which are then legimitmised by our words and finally conscecrated in our actions;

Proverbs 4:23
Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.

I agree that all your decisions flow from your heart..
They follow from your spontaneous Emotive cares

Matthew 9:4
Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?

well.. what I feel is what I feel... Why the feelings come.. I don't know precisely (though I assume it's to do with the make-up of my brain and stuff)

But we actually entertain (come in! make yourself at home, cup of tea?) evil thoughts; putting people in their place.. vengeance.. lust etc.. I am learning not to 'give oxygen' to these thoughts and they do, eventually, die..
2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

the cares of my heart come as they do.. If they're in line with those of Christ.. they are..
When we accept any idea or behaviour we then 'file it' into our subconscious.. but we still act from that information..

If not.. Not. You can't make yourself care (though, in delusion, you can pretend to yourself that you do), you do, or do not.

True, but we can die to all our resentment etc and make room for God's love.. His Spirit:

John 3:30
He must become greater; I must become less."


Psalm 19:14
May these words of my mouth and this meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

be pleasing to God's heart?

well... if your heart aligns with his he might like that... but there's no particular reason for You to want your heart to align with his...
There is IF He is good and everything else, including you and I, are inherently evil..
As the first quote says: EVERYTHING you do flows from your heart...

There's no Trying to be in alignment with god..
There's no reason to want your heart to be so...

If your heart is such that you care in the way God does... then your heart aligns with god.. if not, not.

James 3:2 2 We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.
So, free will is a series of choice that flow FROM the heart outwards.. IF you do not control your thoughts then your words and actions will follow from the..

Your thoughts as to what should happen flow from what you care about.. what lies in your heart.

there's no need to Filter such things.. No need to Regulate which thoughts can occur.. no need to Throw away certain cares of your heart..

just to fit your thoughts together to be coherent... to take all your cares into consideration.. Act with All your heart... not actively chipping away your heart through favoring those cares in Alignment with "God" or something.

one ought to guard their heart from self-mutilation engendered by Pessimistic, self-rejecting Nihilism.

In trying to manipulate Your Heart to be like that of God's you're NOT guarding your heart... Your Tossing it.. and replacing it with a rotten old book.

So you agree that you must guard your heart against some things; self mutilation etc..

So, can you not understand that as a Christian (remember, I'm only EVER defending the Christian, Biblical perspective) I now have a new moral standard (His!) and so have many more things to guard against?
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/29/2011 4:12:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 4:06:21 AM, PervRat wrote:
At 3/29/2011 3:54:35 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/28/2011 11:45:22 PM, PervRat wrote:
Threatening someone with harm -- and eternal damnation in hell is certainly harm -- eliminates any possibility of free will. Furthering that by indoctrinating children, before they can think and reason for themselves, into such a belief system so that they view it as 'normal' and all alternatives as alien, decimates any remaining possibility of free will so that only an exceptional being in exceptional circumstances would truly have the freedom to walk a different path.

Hell is the REMOVAL of the love and safety that He provides for you every day.. that we all enjoy without thanking Him; THIS is trespassing against Him.

If I told and convinced you that you would burn in hell for all eternity if you did not perform an "I'm a little teapot" skit, that pretty much kills your free will.

And if Hell is the REMOVAL of love and safety, then Hell would be the radicalized, homophobic Christian who shot at me, and pretty much every radicalized, homophobic Christian.

Hell is the ULTIMATE expression of free will; God says " I love you and wish you to be with Me for ever and ever in peace, joy and holiness.. but I allow you the CHOICE to reject this.. rejecting Me in to reject Life, Light, Love, Peace, Joy, Wisdom etc.. "
The Cross.. the Cross.
PervRat
Posts: 963
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3/29/2011 4:16:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 4:12:07 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Hell is the ULTIMATE expression of free will; God says " I love you and wish you to be with Me for ever and ever in peace, joy and holiness.. but I allow you the CHOICE to reject this.. rejecting Me in to reject Life, Light, Love, Peace, Joy, Wisdom etc.. "

Threatening harm on a being is in opposition to free will. That is no different than a criminal holding you at gunpoint and offering you a choice -- you can comply with his demands and live, or attempt to fight him and he will shoot you dead. Gunpoint or hellpoint are not free choices.
DATCMOTO
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3/29/2011 4:44:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 4:16:05 AM, PervRat wrote:
At 3/29/2011 4:12:07 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Hell is the ULTIMATE expression of free will; God says " I love you and wish you to be with Me for ever and ever in peace, joy and holiness.. but I allow you the CHOICE to reject this.. rejecting Me in to reject Life, Light, Love, Peace, Joy, Wisdom etc.. "

Threatening harm on a being is in opposition to free will. That is no different than a criminal holding you at gunpoint and offering you a choice -- you can comply with his demands and live, or attempt to fight him and he will shoot you dead. Gunpoint or hellpoint are not free choices.

No is no threat; there is a constant imploring to at least follow your conscience..
The Cross.. the Cross.
PervRat
Posts: 963
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3/29/2011 4:54:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 4:44:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
No is no threat; there is a constant imploring to at least follow your conscience..

My conscience asks questions, and could not blindly swallow everything I was told, especially when a terrible conflict arose between the religious dogma I was force fed as a child fighting against my desires, my passions and ultimately my true love for another boy when I was a teenager. Christianity nearly drove me to suicide, years after I thought I stopped believing, I still clung to the dogma that made me believe I was a sick deviant. It wasn't until I was almost 21 that I finally came to realize that religious dogma was the disease, that true love is a good thing, and while in our homophobic society I had to keep my relationship a secret, I no longer had to live in shame of myself.

Christianity nearly drove me to take my own life, or to run away to a hospital to have myself castrate to cure my homosexual 'deviancy.' You have no idea the torture your religion put me through, how badly it destroyed my childhood from my earliest homosexual fantasies that were in dire conflict with dogma.

Homosexuality exists in nature. It is found in an incredible variety of species. What isn't found in nature? Religion and dogma.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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3/29/2011 2:32:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 3:51:30 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/28/2011 10:52:13 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
If "omniscient" means "knows the future for certain" - then if God exists, free will does not.

Further, your actions are controlled entirely by chemicals - the body is a machine, albeit a very complex machine. Determinism FTW.

If I offer you a completely free, no strings, One Million Dollars I know you're going to take it..
That in no way negates the fact that you still had a choice.

No - if you actually KNOW for a fact, then I did not have a choice, because if I had the choice to refuse, then you did not KNOW.

You are confusing "know" for "really strongly believe."
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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3/29/2011 5:26:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 2:32:14 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 3/29/2011 3:51:30 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/28/2011 10:52:13 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
If "omniscient" means "knows the future for certain" - then if God exists, free will does not.

Further, your actions are controlled entirely by chemicals - the body is a machine, albeit a very complex machine. Determinism FTW.

If I offer you a completely free, no strings, One Million Dollars I know you're going to take it..
That in no way negates the fact that you still had a choice.

No - if you actually KNOW for a fact, then I did not have a choice, because if I had the choice to refuse, then you did not KNOW.

You are confusing "know" for "really strongly believe."

your confusing 'knowledge' with the normal variables of cause and effect. you can 'know' about the variables involved but anyone with sense knows that that 'knowing' is indifferent to what it 'knows'. To have some direct effect on the things you 'know' there must be actual 'spring trigger' like-action. God's love for man prevents that kind of action from taking place, leaving the wills of man still the ultimate factor in there choice for obedience.

Knowledge and Action are not the same thing. you do not make a difference in the way things play out just by knowing more about the things involved in what is playing out. Knowing how to Dance is not the same as Dancing.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/30/2011 5:02:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 2:32:14 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 3/29/2011 3:51:30 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/28/2011 10:52:13 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
If "omniscient" means "knows the future for certain" - then if God exists, free will does not.

Further, your actions are controlled entirely by chemicals - the body is a machine, albeit a very complex machine. Determinism FTW.

If I offer you a completely free, no strings, One Million Dollars I know you're going to take it..
That in no way negates the fact that you still had a choice.

No - if you actually KNOW for a fact, then I did not have a choice, because if I had the choice to refuse, then you did not KNOW.

You are confusing "know" for "really strongly believe."

Yes you have a choice; but because I KNOW human nature, I KNOW you are going to take it..

Any natural analogy of a Supernatural precept must, ultimately, be imperfect.
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/30/2011 5:05:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 4:54:31 AM, PervRat wrote:
At 3/29/2011 4:44:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
No is no threat; there is a constant imploring to at least follow your conscience..

My conscience asks questions, and could not blindly swallow everything I was told, especially when a terrible conflict arose between the religious dogma I was force fed as a child fighting against my desires, my passions and ultimately my true love for another boy when I was a teenager. Christianity nearly drove me to suicide, years after I thought I stopped believing, I still clung to the dogma that made me believe I was a sick deviant. It wasn't until I was almost 21 that I finally came to realize that religious dogma was the disease, that true love is a good thing, and while in our homophobic society I had to keep my relationship a secret, I no longer had to live in shame of myself.

Christianity nearly drove me to take my own life, or to run away to a hospital to have myself castrate to cure my homosexual 'deviancy.' You have no idea the torture your religion put me through, how badly it destroyed my childhood from my earliest homosexual fantasies that were in dire conflict with dogma.

Homosexuality exists in nature. It is found in an incredible variety of species. What isn't found in nature? Religion and dogma.

No, that was not your conscience.. that was OUR enemy.

IF homosexuality exists in nature then it means absolutely nothing because nature itself is fallen..
The Cross.. the Cross.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/30/2011 11:07:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/30/2011 5:05:33 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/29/2011 4:54:31 AM, PervRat wrote:
At 3/29/2011 4:44:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
No is no threat; there is a constant imploring to at least follow your conscience..

My conscience asks questions, and could not blindly swallow everything I was told, especially when a terrible conflict arose between the religious dogma I was force fed as a child fighting against my desires, my passions and ultimately my true love for another boy when I was a teenager. Christianity nearly drove me to suicide, years after I thought I stopped believing, I still clung to the dogma that made me believe I was a sick deviant. It wasn't until I was almost 21 that I finally came to realize that religious dogma was the disease, that true love is a good thing, and while in our homophobic society I had to keep my relationship a secret, I no longer had to live in shame of myself.

Christianity nearly drove me to take my own life, or to run away to a hospital to have myself castrate to cure my homosexual 'deviancy.' You have no idea the torture your religion put me through, how badly it destroyed my childhood from my earliest homosexual fantasies that were in dire conflict with dogma.

Homosexuality exists in nature. It is found in an incredible variety of species. What isn't found in nature? Religion and dogma.

No, that was not your conscience.. that was OUR enemy.

lol..

if your heart's different from God's...
you have to toss your heart to embrace god's

there's no need to bring the devil into this.. even if he does exist, he'd just be appealing to those aspects of your will which are contrary to God's in the first place.

The only reason he'd have any power to persuade you is if you already care for the things he's selling.. If he appeals to how you would want things.

Even if he did exist... He's just making it Harder to toss your own will... to merge with god.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/31/2011 4:56:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 2:32:14 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 3/29/2011 3:51:30 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/28/2011 10:52:13 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
If "omniscient" means "knows the future for certain" - then if God exists, free will does not.

Further, your actions are controlled entirely by chemicals - the body is a machine, albeit a very complex machine. Determinism FTW.

If I offer you a completely free, no strings, One Million Dollars I know you're going to take it..
That in no way negates the fact that you still had a choice.

No - if you actually KNOW for a fact, then I did not have a choice, because if I had the choice to refuse, then you did not KNOW.

You are confusing "know" for "really strongly believe."

God exists outside of time, in Eternity..

So perhaps a better analogy would be that a film exists of a man who has a choice whether to have scrambled eggs or poached eggs for his breakfast.. he has a choice.. You have never seen the film before and so cannot KNOW which he will choose.. I HAVE seen the film and so KNOW what that he will choose scrambled.. this knowledge can NEVER effect his choice..
The Cross.. the Cross.
tigg13
Posts: 302
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3/31/2011 8:11:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 4:56:52 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/29/2011 2:32:14 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 3/29/2011 3:51:30 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/28/2011 10:52:13 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
If "omniscient" means "knows the future for certain" - then if God exists, free will does not.

Further, your actions are controlled entirely by chemicals - the body is a machine, albeit a very complex machine. Determinism FTW.

If I offer you a completely free, no strings, One Million Dollars I know you're going to take it..
That in no way negates the fact that you still had a choice.

No - if you actually KNOW for a fact, then I did not have a choice, because if I had the choice to refuse, then you did not KNOW.

You are confusing "know" for "really strongly believe."

God exists outside of time, in Eternity..

So perhaps a better analogy would be that a film exists of a man who has a choice whether to have scrambled eggs or poached eggs for his breakfast.. he has a choice.. You have never seen the film before and so cannot KNOW which he will choose.. I HAVE seen the film and so KNOW what that he will choose scrambled.. this knowledge can NEVER effect his choice..

God wrote the screen play, He authored the novel it was based upon and conceived of the situation before the production began to shoot. The man is a puppet - a fictional character that God chose to put in this situation. The character only thinks that he is making the decision - because God decided, just for fun, to have him ponder over the question before scrambling the eggs. But this, like all other choices, was made by God before there ever was a film.

Personally, I don't like the idea that I'm just character in a story whose end has already been decided. I prefer the idea of free will. But that of course, would mean that I'm not the creation of some ultimate authority.
tigg13
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3/31/2011 8:52:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/24/2011 6:53:53 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
The Bible clearly teaches that all choices begin in our hearts, which are controlled (minded) by our minds, and which are then legimitmised by our words and finally conscecrated in our actions;

Proverbs 4:23
Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.

Matthew 9:4
Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?

2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Psalm 19:14
May these words of my mouth and this meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

James 3:2 2 We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.

So, free will is a series of choice that flow FROM the heart outwards.. IF you do not control your thoughts then your words and actions will follow from the..

If the Bible wanted to teach this lesson, why did it split these verses up and stick them into 5 different books? I mean who would sit down and, upon reading the Bible for the first time, immediately think "Why this clearly teaches that all choices begin in our hearts, which are controlled (minded) by our minds, and which are then legitimized by our words and finally consecrated in our actions!"

This is called cherry picking and, actually anyone can do it. Just pick a handful of verses at random put them together and you can make the Bible say pretty much anything.

Here's an example:

Job 11:4 You say to God, ‘My beliefs are flawless and I am pure in your sight.'

Numbers 14:7 and they spoke to all the congregation of the sons of Israel, saying, "The land which we passed through to spy out is an exceedingly good land.

Luke 16:9 I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

Romans 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Proverbs 16:26 The appetite of laborers works for them; their hunger drives them on.

Why, it's clear that the Bible teaches that it's good to be a rich, self important capitalistic slave owner.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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4/1/2011 5:05:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 8:11:29 PM, tigg13 wrote:
At 3/31/2011 4:56:52 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/29/2011 2:32:14 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 3/29/2011 3:51:30 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/28/2011 10:52:13 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
If "omniscient" means "knows the future for certain" - then if God exists, free will does not.

Further, your actions are controlled entirely by chemicals - the body is a machine, albeit a very complex machine. Determinism FTW.

If I offer you a completely free, no strings, One Million Dollars I know you're going to take it..
That in no way negates the fact that you still had a choice.

No - if you actually KNOW for a fact, then I did not have a choice, because if I had the choice to refuse, then you did not KNOW.

You are confusing "know" for "really strongly believe."

God exists outside of time, in Eternity..

So perhaps a better analogy would be that a film exists of a man who has a choice whether to have scrambled eggs or poached eggs for his breakfast.. he has a choice.. You have never seen the film before and so cannot KNOW which he will choose.. I HAVE seen the film and so KNOW what that he will choose scrambled.. this knowledge can NEVER effect his choice..

God wrote the screen play, He authored the novel it was based upon and conceived of the situation before the production began to shoot. The man is a puppet - a fictional character that God chose to put in this situation. The character only thinks that he is making the decision - because God decided, just for fun, to have him ponder over the question before scrambling the eggs. But this, like all other choices, was made by God before there ever was a film.

Personally, I don't like the idea that I'm just character in a story whose end has already been decided. I prefer the idea of free will. But that of course, would mean that I'm not the creation of some ultimate authority.

Oh, I agree:

John 3:27
To this John replied, "A man can receive only what is given him from heaven.


That doesn't mean there is no such thing as free-will though, because we can all choose the little things which become the bigger things.. I also wanted to show that 'knowing' does not nessecarily impinge free will..
The Cross.. the Cross.