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"I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist"

tornshoe92
Posts: 361
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3/28/2011 11:04:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have started reading that book and so far I'm unimpressed. The authors (there are two main authors, Frank Turek and some other dude) so far have done only two things. 1) Make semantic arguments that really serve more as strawman-type distractions from the topic at hand. 2) Commit actual strawman arguments and refute claims that "atheists make", most of which I've never actually heard any atheist make in my life.

I was just wondering if anyone has read the book and feels like sharing their opinion of its contents. Also, there are several youtube videos with the same title that show Frank Turek giving lectures. WARNING: His speaking voice is incredibly annoying.
"Next time I see a little old lady going to church I am going kick her in the ovaries because she is personally responsible for this. Thanks Izbo." -C_N
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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3/28/2011 11:11:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Sure, being an atheist requires faith, why not.

You have to have a certain degree of faith to break away from something that threatens you with hell.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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3/28/2011 11:17:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/28/2011 11:11:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Sure, being an atheist requires faith, why not.

You have to have a certain degree of faith to break away from something that threatens you with hell.

Not if you think the entire concept of hell is moronic.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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3/28/2011 11:28:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/28/2011 11:17:04 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/28/2011 11:11:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Sure, being an atheist requires faith, why not.

You have to have a certain degree of faith to break away from something that threatens you with hell.

Not if you think the entire concept of hell is moronic.

Yeah, but you must have faith in what your mind is telling you.

It is moronic, but if you are brainwashed to believe something since the time you are born, your faith does have to shift.

The type of faith that most religionists advocate is not really faith at all. You can't have faith in something that you aren't reasonably certain of.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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3/28/2011 11:29:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
What do you put your faith in? Your ability to reason, or what some outside source has told you?

A lot of time, people even confuse the two.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
PervRat
Posts: 963
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3/28/2011 11:41:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/28/2011 11:28:43 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 3/28/2011 11:17:04 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/28/2011 11:11:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Sure, being an atheist requires faith, why not.

You have to have a certain degree of faith to break away from something that threatens you with hell.

Not if you think the entire concept of hell is moronic.

Yeah, but you must have faith in what your mind is telling you.

It is moronic, but if you are brainwashed to believe something since the time you are born, your faith does have to shift.

The type of faith that most religionists advocate is not really faith at all. You can't have faith in something that you aren't reasonably certain of.

If you don't define faith as placing one's unquestioning loyalty and trust in someone, something or some system of beliefs, what word would you use to describe such things?
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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3/28/2011 11:46:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/28/2011 11:28:43 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
but if you are brainwashed to believe something since the time you are born, your faith does have to shift.

I was pretty much raised Atheist. It would take a lot for me to start believing in God.

The type of faith that most religionists advocate is not really faith at all. You can't have faith in something that you aren't reasonably certain of.

Exactly. I have faith that the chair I'm sittng on isn't going to collapse. I have faith that this building isn't going to spontaneously explode. I don't know these things, but i'm reasonably certain.

I don't see how anyone can be reasonably certain of a sky wizard. The Bible isn't that good!

What do you put your faith in? Your ability to reason, or what some outside source has told you?

Both, but it isn't even remotely unquestioned faith. My ability to reason is critically flawed, because I am an emotional fvck up, like almost every other human bean.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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3/28/2011 11:59:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/28/2011 11:41:32 PM, PervRat wrote:
At 3/28/2011 11:28:43 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 3/28/2011 11:17:04 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/28/2011 11:11:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Sure, being an atheist requires faith, why not.

You have to have a certain degree of faith to break away from something that threatens you with hell.

Not if you think the entire concept of hell is moronic.

Yeah, but you must have faith in what your mind is telling you.

It is moronic, but if you are brainwashed to believe something since the time you are born, your faith does have to shift.

The type of faith that most religionists advocate is not really faith at all. You can't have faith in something that you aren't reasonably certain of.

If you don't define faith as placing one's unquestioning loyalty and trust in someone, something or some system of beliefs, what word would you use to describe such things?

That certainly is a way to define faith. As soon as you put the word "unquestioning" though, it turns into some form of extreme gullibility that possibly crosses into the land of stupidity.

However, beyond the faith needed to decide that a threat is false, a position of atheism is a lack of faith in a concept.

Really, it's all semantics. People who debate these kind of things might as well be jacking off all over each other.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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3/29/2011 12:03:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
*jacks off on Cosmic*
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
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CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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3/29/2011 12:18:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Jacks off on tvellalott
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
FlyingApple
Posts: 11
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3/29/2011 12:26:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/28/2011 11:59:47 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 3/28/2011 11:41:32 PM, PervRat wrote:
At 3/28/2011 11:28:43 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 3/28/2011 11:17:04 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/28/2011 11:11:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Sure, being an atheist requires faith, why not.

You have to have a certain degree of faith to break away from something that threatens you with hell.

Not if you think the entire concept of hell is moronic.

Yeah, but you must have faith in what your mind is telling you.

It is moronic, but if you are brainwashed to believe something since the time you are born, your faith does have to shift.

The type of faith that most religionists advocate is not really faith at all. You can't have faith in something that you aren't reasonably certain of.

If you don't define faith as placing one's unquestioning loyalty and trust in someone, something or some system of beliefs, what word would you use to describe such things?

That certainly is a way to define faith. As soon as you put the word "unquestioning" though, it turns into some form of extreme gullibility that possibly crosses into the land of stupidity.

However, beyond the faith needed to decide that a threat is false, a position of atheism is a lack of faith in a concept.

I think its important to remember that it is human nature to trust that the things that other people tell them are true, especially about things that you cannot easily go out and prove for yourself. Granted, its not hard to deduce that something is fishy with the whole "wizard in the sky" idea, but once planted in the mind of a child and reinforced by all of the adults who care for him/her, maybe it often really becomes something that has to be tangibly disproved to be displaced. I've seen the discussions on burden of proof, but those are based on reason and logic, and in case no one has noticed we are not living on Vulcan.
PervRat
Posts: 963
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3/29/2011 1:44:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/28/2011 11:59:47 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
That certainly is a way to define faith. As soon as you put the word "unquestioning" though, it turns into some form of extreme gullibility that possibly crosses into the land of stupidity.

To me, faith means taking a risk in putting trust in something and not thoroughly questioning/examining its validity. It can be good, but the risk is that it can be bad. Over time, its natural to develop a trust with friends ... you might give a good buddy a spare key to your house and have faith they will not abuse that trust by stealing stuff from you. With religion, I fear people tend to give complete faith not only in the religion itself, but the authorities who preach it. In either case, you don't question -- you don't tend to ask your friend you gave a key to whether he steals stuff, you also don't ask the pastor if Adam and Eve were really created on the 7th day nor how people in the Americas nor other far-off lands survived the great flood if only Noah and his family were the only people to survive (nor how a pair of every species of animal on every sing continent were even gathered together...)

Faith is a gamble. I lambast religious faith, because there's no questioning at all ... but at the same time, I must admit I feel pretty darned good when someone places faith in my by entrusting me with a 'key' of some sort, that makes me feel like I've earned trust by them and, by extension, at least one person in the world has some level of trust in me.

However, beyond the faith needed to decide that a threat is false, a position of atheism is a lack of faith in a concept.

Really, it's all semantics. People who debate these kind of things might as well be jacking off all over each other.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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3/29/2011 9:36:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 1:44:20 AM, PervRat wrote:
At 3/28/2011 11:59:47 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
That certainly is a way to define faith. As soon as you put the word "unquestioning" though, it turns into some form of extreme gullibility that possibly crosses into the land of stupidity.

To me, faith means taking a risk in putting trust in something and not thoroughly questioning/examining its validity. It can be good, but the risk is that it can be bad. Over time, its natural to develop a trust with friends ... you might give a good buddy a spare key to your house and have faith they will not abuse that trust by stealing stuff from you. With religion, I fear people tend to give complete faith not only in the religion itself, but the authorities who preach it. In either case, you don't question -- you don't tend to ask your friend you gave a key to whether he steals stuff, you also don't ask the pastor if Adam and Eve were really created on the 7th day nor how people in the Americas nor other far-off lands survived the great flood if only Noah and his family were the only people to survive (nor how a pair of every species of animal on every sing continent were even gathered together...)

Faith is a gamble. I lambast religious faith, because there's no questioning at all ... but at the same time, I must admit I feel pretty darned good when someone places faith in my by entrusting me with a 'key' of some sort, that makes me feel like I've earned trust by them and, by extension, at least one person in the world has some level of trust in me.

Yeah, there are some instances where I'd say that it would be impossible to make any progress without faith.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
tornshoe92
Posts: 361
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3/29/2011 3:28:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Well this went from 0 to off-topic in no time at all. lol
"Next time I see a little old lady going to church I am going kick her in the ovaries because she is personally responsible for this. Thanks Izbo." -C_N