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Free Will is a crock.

tvellalott
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3/29/2011 12:02:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
What is the point of free will if making the wrong decision ends in the lesser of two outcomes?

Let me elaborate:
Whether you believe that Hell is an eternal firey torment or eternal seperation from God, you are still suggesting that life is a test and the result of that test is determined by your actions in life, amirite?

So what exactly is the point of giving us free will? It seems only to serve the purpose of allowing people to make the choice of doing the wrong thing.

Why should we have that choice? What purpose does it serve?

If there was a God, it would be better for him to force us to do the right thing, rather than allowing nature and nurture to produce maniacs like Josef Fritzl to inflict torture a thousand fold of what Jesus suffered on his own daughter.

Imagined if I designed a computer program, but allowed it to randomly select to do the complete WRONG thing and blow my other appliances up kill my dog or poison my dinner. Would you suggest that I was the greatest computer programmer?

I can't make sense of it. A God should force us to do the best thing for us, since we are stupid, self-destructive monkeys when left to our own devices.
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Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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3/29/2011 1:12:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 12:02:15 AM, tvellalott wrote:

Why should we have that choice? What purpose does it serve?

As a parent would you make all choices for your children to ensure they never made any mistakes. Would you have wished your parents did that to you.
tvellalott
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3/29/2011 3:41:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 1:12:18 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 3/29/2011 12:02:15 AM, tvellalott wrote:

Why should we have that choice? What purpose does it serve?

As a parent would you make all choices for your children to ensure they never made any mistakes. Would you have wished your parents did that to you.

If my parents were infallible Gods and making the wrong decision would result in eternal hell, then yes.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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3/29/2011 5:18:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 3:41:33 PM, tvellalott wrote:

If my parents were infallible Gods and making the wrong decision would result in eternal hell, then yes.

Good luck to your children.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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3/29/2011 5:20:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 5:18:18 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 3/29/2011 3:41:33 PM, tvellalott wrote:

If my parents were infallible Gods and making the wrong decision would result in eternal hell, then yes.

Good luck to your children.

I think tvellalott doing everything it takes not to let his children burn in a fire pit for eternity is more benevolent then that menace the Christian god.
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tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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3/29/2011 5:24:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 5:18:18 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 3/29/2011 3:41:33 PM, tvellalott wrote:

If my parents were infallible Gods and making the wrong decision would result in eternal hell, then yes.

Good luck to your children.

I'm going to be an awesome parent, for exactly this reasoning.

If my daughter wants to go out and gangbang homeless men and inject ice into her eyeballs when she's 13, I'll forcibly stop her to the best of my ability; free will be damned.

Of course, it's much better to educate her and prevent this kind of behaviour before it manifests.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/31/2011 5:02:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 12:02:15 AM, tvellalott wrote:
What is the point of free will if making the wrong decision ends in the lesser of two outcomes?

Let me elaborate:
Whether you believe that Hell is an eternal firey torment or eternal seperation from God, you are still suggesting that life is a test and the result of that test is determined by your actions in life, amirite?

So what exactly is the point of giving us free will? It seems only to serve the purpose of allowing people to make the choice of doing the wrong thing.

Why should we have that choice? What purpose does it serve?

If there was a God, it would be better for him to force us to do the right thing, rather than allowing nature and nurture to produce maniacs like Josef Fritzl to inflict torture a thousand fold of what Jesus suffered on his own daughter.

Imagined if I designed a computer program, but allowed it to randomly select to do the complete WRONG thing and blow my other appliances up kill my dog or poison my dinner. Would you suggest that I was the greatest computer programmer?

I can't make sense of it. A God should force us to do the best thing for us, since we are stupid, self-destructive monkeys when left to our own devices.

It would be the ultimate horror for God to make a man like a computer or a robot; a puppet who always does what he is programmed to do.. and who is interested in playing with puppets but children and weirdos?

FREE WILL: http://www.debate.org...
The Cross.. the Cross.
tvellalott
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3/31/2011 5:14:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 5:02:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
It would be the ultimate horror for God to make a man like a computer or a robot; a puppet who always does what he is programmed to do.. and who is interested in playing with puppets but children and weirdos?

FREE WILL: http://www.debate.org...

You missed my point. Free will = giving people the ability to damn themselves.

Furthermore, wouldn't it be THE ULTIMATE HORROR for God to see his creations going to Hell for eternal torture, because he let them.

See the analogy about my own metaphorical children... would you let your daughter prostitute herself to support a heroin addiction, simply because to stop her would be a violation of her free will?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Thaddeus
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3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 5:24:01 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/29/2011 5:18:18 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 3/29/2011 3:41:33 PM, tvellalott wrote:

If my parents were infallible Gods and making the wrong decision would result in eternal hell, then yes.

Good luck to your children.

I'm going to be an awesome parent, for exactly this reasoning.

If my daughter wants to go out and gangbang homeless men and inject ice into her eyeballs when she's 13, I'll forcibly stop her to the best of my ability; free will be damned.

Of course, it's much better to educate her and prevent this kind of behaviour before it manifests.

Hmmm, but couldn't Christians argue that god sent the law therefore he did educate them. Also remember, in christian theology, sin is rejecting god. Hell is the consequence of sin; ie life without god.
tvellalott
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3/31/2011 5:20:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Hmmm, but couldn't Christians argue that god sent the law therefore he did educate them. Also remember, in christian theology, sin is rejecting god. Hell is the consequence of sin; ie life without god.

Which law should I follow? Why should I believe that one is the true law over another? Why should I even believe God exists?

Surely God KNOWS that I am skeptical. He knows no matter how many times I'm told "just accept Jesus into your heart and you'll be saved" I'm still going to think that's horse sh!t. I think about God all the time. I take ID into consideration. I still come to the same conclusion.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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3/31/2011 5:26:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 5:20:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Hmmm, but couldn't Christians argue that god sent the law therefore he did educate them. Also remember, in christian theology, sin is rejecting god. Hell is the consequence of sin; ie life without god.

Which law should I follow? Why should I believe that one is the true law over another? Why should I even believe God exists?

Surely God KNOWS that I am skeptical. He knows no matter how many times I'm told "just accept Jesus into your heart and you'll be saved" I'm still going to think that's horse sh!t. I think about God all the time. I take ID into consideration. I still come to the same conclusion.

Do you believe in right and wrong?
The Cross.. the Cross.
tvellalott
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3/31/2011 5:33:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 5:26:03 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:20:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Hmmm, but couldn't Christians argue that god sent the law therefore he did educate them. Also remember, in christian theology, sin is rejecting god. Hell is the consequence of sin; ie life without god.

Which law should I follow? Why should I believe that one is the true law over another? Why should I even believe God exists?

Surely God KNOWS that I am skeptical. He knows no matter how many times I'm told "just accept Jesus into your heart and you'll be saved" I'm still going to think that's horse sh!t. I think about God all the time. I take ID into consideration. I still come to the same conclusion.

Do you believe in right and wrong?

An objective right and wrong? Certainly not.
I believe that which benefits or satisfies me is right and to hell with everything else.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/31/2011 5:36:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 5:20:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Hmmm, but couldn't Christians argue that god sent the law therefore he did educate them. Also remember, in christian theology, sin is rejecting god. Hell is the consequence of sin; ie life without god.

Which law should I follow? Why should I believe that one is the true law over another? Why should I even believe God exists?

Surely God KNOWS that I am skeptical. He knows no matter how many times I'm told "just accept Jesus into your heart and you'll be saved" I'm still going to think that's horse sh!t. I think about God all the time. I take ID into consideration. I still come to the same conclusion.

I don't think he really cares. According to him, faith is a positive attribute, so we're a bit sucky for not having it.
tigg13
Posts: 302
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3/31/2011 8:42:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 5:26:03 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:20:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Hmmm, but couldn't Christians argue that god sent the law therefore he did educate them. Also remember, in christian theology, sin is rejecting god. Hell is the consequence of sin; ie life without god.

Which law should I follow? Why should I believe that one is the true law over another? Why should I even believe God exists?

Surely God KNOWS that I am skeptical. He knows no matter how many times I'm told "just accept Jesus into your heart and you'll be saved" I'm still going to think that's horse sh!t. I think about God all the time. I take ID into consideration. I still come to the same conclusion.

Do you believe in right and wrong?

Yes. And eternal damnation is absolutely wrong.
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/31/2011 8:47:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 8:42:49 AM, tigg13 wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:26:03 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:20:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Hmmm, but couldn't Christians argue that god sent the law therefore he did educate them. Also remember, in christian theology, sin is rejecting god. Hell is the consequence of sin; ie life without god.

Which law should I follow? Why should I believe that one is the true law over another? Why should I even believe God exists?

Surely God KNOWS that I am skeptical. He knows no matter how many times I'm told "just accept Jesus into your heart and you'll be saved" I'm still going to think that's horse sh!t. I think about God all the time. I take ID into consideration. I still come to the same conclusion.

Do you believe in right and wrong?

Yes. And eternal damnation is absolutely wrong.

How do you know what is right and wrong?
tigg13
Posts: 302
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3/31/2011 8:53:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 5:36:38 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:20:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Hmmm, but couldn't Christians argue that god sent the law therefore he did educate them. Also remember, in christian theology, sin is rejecting god. Hell is the consequence of sin; ie life without god.

Which law should I follow? Why should I believe that one is the true law over another? Why should I even believe God exists?

Surely God KNOWS that I am skeptical. He knows no matter how many times I'm told "just accept Jesus into your heart and you'll be saved" I'm still going to think that's horse sh!t. I think about God all the time. I take ID into consideration. I still come to the same conclusion.

I don't think he really cares. According to him, faith is a positive attribute, so we're a bit sucky for not having it.

Branch Davidians had faith.
Jim Jones' followers had faith.
The Heaven's Gate followers had faith.
The 9/11 terrorists had faith.
The popes that called for the Crusades had faith
The people who burned people for witchcraft had faith.
Children who have been molested by priests and ministers had faith.
Parents who let their children die because they believed that prayer alone would heal them had faith.
Poor people who have donated there life savings so that televangelists could live in big houses and drive new cars had faith.

Why is it exactly that God would think that faith is a good thing?
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/31/2011 9:01:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 8:53:12 AM, tigg13 wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:36:38 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:20:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Hmmm, but couldn't Christians argue that god sent the law therefore he did educate them. Also remember, in christian theology, sin is rejecting god. Hell is the consequence of sin; ie life without god.

Which law should I follow? Why should I believe that one is the true law over another? Why should I even believe God exists?

Surely God KNOWS that I am skeptical. He knows no matter how many times I'm told "just accept Jesus into your heart and you'll be saved" I'm still going to think that's horse sh!t. I think about God all the time. I take ID into consideration. I still come to the same conclusion.

I don't think he really cares. According to him, faith is a positive attribute, so we're a bit sucky for not having it.

Branch Davidians had faith.
Jim Jones' followers had faith.
The Heaven's Gate followers had faith.
The 9/11 terrorists had faith.
The popes that called for the Crusades had faith
The people who burned people for witchcraft had faith.
Children who have been molested by priests and ministers had faith.
Parents who let their children die because they believed that prayer alone would heal them had faith.
Poor people who have donated there life savings so that televangelists could live in big houses and drive new cars had faith.

Why is it exactly that God would think that faith is a good thing?

Ignoring the fallacy in your argument;
He's egocentric (not a criticism, if he exists I reckon he has the right to be), so trusting in him without firm evidence is an admirable quality in his eyes.
Also, do you believe in objective morality?
tigg13
Posts: 302
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3/31/2011 9:10:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 8:47:15 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/31/2011 8:42:49 AM, tigg13 wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:26:03 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:20:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Hmmm, but couldn't Christians argue that god sent the law therefore he did educate them. Also remember, in christian theology, sin is rejecting god. Hell is the consequence of sin; ie life without god.

Which law should I follow? Why should I believe that one is the true law over another? Why should I even believe God exists?

Surely God KNOWS that I am skeptical. He knows no matter how many times I'm told "just accept Jesus into your heart and you'll be saved" I'm still going to think that's horse sh!t. I think about God all the time. I take ID into consideration. I still come to the same conclusion.

Do you believe in right and wrong?

Yes. And eternal damnation is absolutely wrong.

How do you know what is right and wrong?

If my opinion of what is right and what is wrong isn't valid then why ask if I believe in it? If my opinion about right and wrong is invalid then what good is my free will? If I'm not capable of making good decisions why make me responsible for making important choices? What else am I supposed to base moral choices on if not my opinion of right and wrong? What would be the difference between someone who bases their choices on what they are told to do by a book and a robot?
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/31/2011 9:19:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 9:10:41 AM, tigg13 wrote:
At 3/31/2011 8:47:15 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/31/2011 8:42:49 AM, tigg13 wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:26:03 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:20:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Hmmm, but couldn't Christians argue that god sent the law therefore he did educate them. Also remember, in christian theology, sin is rejecting god. Hell is the consequence of sin; ie life without god.

Which law should I follow? Why should I believe that one is the true law over another? Why should I even believe God exists?

Surely God KNOWS that I am skeptical. He knows no matter how many times I'm told "just accept Jesus into your heart and you'll be saved" I'm still going to think that's horse sh!t. I think about God all the time. I take ID into consideration. I still come to the same conclusion.

Do you believe in right and wrong?

Yes. And eternal damnation is absolutely wrong.

How do you know what is right and wrong?

If my opinion of what is right and what is wrong isn't valid then why ask if I believe in it? If my opinion about right and wrong is invalid then what good is my free will? If I'm not capable of making good decisions why make me responsible for making important choices? What else am I supposed to base moral choices on if not my opinion of right and wrong? What would be the difference between someone who bases their choices on what they are told to do by a book and a robot?

Your opinion is no more valid than anyone elses. How is your free will (by which I assume you mean liberty) relevent to whether you make "moral" choices? You aren't capable of making good decisions if good does not exist. If good does not exist it doesn't mean you are not responsible.
You probably should (but by no means have to, the consequences are your own) base them off social expediency, but not some fictious idea of right and wrong.
The person who acts according to book atleast has a source of objective morality now matter how flawed(differentiating him from you in the logical sense). Your last question shows that you are conflating morality with freewill. How are you any different from a robot? Just because someone has a source of morality and lives by it does not make their behaviour robotic.

Honestly I have seen more coherent and logical interrogator posts than this. You can do better Tigg. Do so.
Thaddeus
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3/31/2011 9:22:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 9:19:51 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Your opinion is no more valid than anyone elses. How is your free will (by which I assume you mean liberty) relevent to whether you make "moral" choices? You aren't capable of making good decisions if good does not exist. If good does not exist it doesn't mean you are not responsible for you actions as they have consequence.

Clarified.
tigg13
Posts: 302
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3/31/2011 10:29:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 9:01:38 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/31/2011 8:53:12 AM, tigg13 wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:36:38 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:20:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Hmmm, but couldn't Christians argue that god sent the law therefore he did educate them. Also remember, in christian theology, sin is rejecting god. Hell is the consequence of sin; ie life without god.

Which law should I follow? Why should I believe that one is the true law over another? Why should I even believe God exists?

Surely God KNOWS that I am skeptical. He knows no matter how many times I'm told "just accept Jesus into your heart and you'll be saved" I'm still going to think that's horse sh!t. I think about God all the time. I take ID into consideration. I still come to the same conclusion.

I don't think he really cares. According to him, faith is a positive attribute, so we're a bit sucky for not having it.

Branch Davidians had faith.
Jim Jones' followers had faith.
The Heaven's Gate followers had faith.
The 9/11 terrorists had faith.
The popes that called for the Crusades had faith
The people who burned people for witchcraft had faith.
Children who have been molested by priests and ministers had faith.
Parents who let their children die because they believed that prayer alone would heal them had faith.
Poor people who have donated there life savings so that televangelists could live in big houses and drive new cars had faith.

Why is it exactly that God would think that faith is a good thing?

Ignoring the fallacy in your argument;
He's egocentric (not a criticism, if he exists I reckon he has the right to be), so trusting in him without firm evidence is an admirable quality in his eyes.

Matthew 5:29-30 and Matthew 19:12. God thinks that self mutilation is an admirable quality too. Have you cut yourself for the Lord lately?

Also, do you believe in objective morality?

Since we are constrained to a subjective perspective, an objective morality would be unknowable and, therefore, irrelevant.
tigg13
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3/31/2011 12:28:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 9:19:51 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/31/2011 9:10:41 AM, tigg13 wrote:
At 3/31/2011 8:47:15 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/31/2011 8:42:49 AM, tigg13 wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:26:03 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:20:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM, Thaddeus wrote:

Do you believe in right and wrong?

Yes. And eternal damnation is absolutely wrong.

How do you know what is right and wrong?

If my opinion of what is right and what is wrong isn't valid then why ask if I believe in it? If my opinion about right and wrong is invalid then what good is my free will? If I'm not capable of making good decisions why make me responsible for making important choices? What else am I supposed to base moral choices on if not my opinion of right and wrong? What would be the difference between someone who bases their choices on what they are told to do by a book and a robot?

Your opinion is no more valid than anyone elses. How is your free will (by which I assume you mean liberty) relevent to whether you make "moral" choices?

Presumably, the reason we have free will is so that we have the opportunity to choose to follow God. A legitimate question that one may ask before making this choice would be "Does God deserve to be followed?" To answer this, we would have to look at God's actions and determine whether they were morally good or not. If we can only use God's standard for morality as a basis for this determination we are basically forfeiting our free will and just accepting God at face value ("I choose to believe in God because God says I should choose to believe in Him.", instead of "I believe in God because I think I should.")

It is the difference between believing that God is good because, in your opinion, He is good, and believing that God is good because you're told to believe it whether you think so or not. Which of these choices would you say is an example of free will?

You aren't capable of making good decisions if good does not exist. If good does not exist it doesn't mean you are not responsible.

But am I capable of making good choices if good does exist? If I am, then my opinion about damnation is valid. If I'm not, then how am I to know whether believing in God is the right choice? Don't I first have to know what good is before I can decide whether or not God really is good?

You probably should (but by no means have to, the consequences are your own) base them off social expediency, but not some fictious idea of right and wrong.

Well, whatever I base them off of, wouldn't you agree that, if I am really free, then I have the final say over what I think is right and wrong? Even though I admit that it is just my subjective opinion, isn't it just as valid as any other standard?

The person who acts according to book atleast has a source of objective morality now matter how flawed(differentiating him from you in the logical sense).

How do you know that the book is objectively moral if you aren't able to discern right from wrong yourself? Did you decide that the book is right because, in your subjective opinion it is right, or do you think it is right because the book tells you that it is right?

Your last question shows that you are conflating morality with freewill. How are you any different from a robot? Just because someone has a source of morality and lives by it does not make their behaviour robotic.

If you live your life by making choices because you feel they are morally right, then you have free will. If you exist day to day, just following instructions that have been written out for you, then you are a robot. If you are capable of discerning what is right from what is wrong, then you can judge for yourself whether or not the book is right or wrong and your choice, whatever it is, is valid. If you are not capable of discerning right from wrong then you aren't following the book because it is right (you have no idea whether or not it is right) you are following it because you have been told that it is right.

Clearly, the expectation here is that you are supposed to behave as if you are a robot blindly following your instructions because you have been told that it is the right thing to do. But it is just as clear that we are not to behave like robots because if we were, we wouldn't have free will. Thus, this version of God is obviously internally incoherent and He cannot possibly exist.


Honestly I have seen more coherent and logical interrogator posts than this. You can do better Tigg. Do so.

Sorry, I have a lot going on right now, so It's hard to give you my full attention.
badger
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3/31/2011 12:43:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 5:02:14 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/29/2011 12:02:15 AM, tvellalott wrote:
What is the point of free will if making the wrong decision ends in the lesser of two outcomes?

Let me elaborate:
Whether you believe that Hell is an eternal firey torment or eternal seperation from God, you are still suggesting that life is a test and the result of that test is determined by your actions in life, amirite?

So what exactly is the point of giving us free will? It seems only to serve the purpose of allowing people to make the choice of doing the wrong thing.

Why should we have that choice? What purpose does it serve?

If there was a God, it would be better for him to force us to do the right thing, rather than allowing nature and nurture to produce maniacs like Josef Fritzl to inflict torture a thousand fold of what Jesus suffered on his own daughter.

Imagined if I designed a computer program, but allowed it to randomly select to do the complete WRONG thing and blow my other appliances up kill my dog or poison my dinner. Would you suggest that I was the greatest computer programmer?

I can't make sense of it. A God should force us to do the best thing for us, since we are stupid, self-destructive monkeys when left to our own devices.

It would be the ultimate horror for God to make a man like a computer or a robot; a puppet who always does what he is programmed to do.. and who is interested in playing with puppets but children and weirdos?

FREE WILL: http://www.debate.org...

it seems he did though: http://en.wikipedia.org...
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rogue
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3/31/2011 6:45:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/29/2011 12:02:15 AM, tvellalott wrote:
What is the point of free will if making the wrong decision ends in the lesser of two outcomes?

Let me elaborate:
Whether you believe that Hell is an eternal firey torment or eternal seperation from God, you are still suggesting that life is a test and the result of that test is determined by your actions in life, amirite?

So what exactly is the point of giving us free will? It seems only to serve the purpose of allowing people to make the choice of doing the wrong thing.

Why should we have that choice? What purpose does it serve?

If there was a God, it would be better for him to force us to do the right thing, rather than allowing nature and nurture to produce maniacs like Josef Fritzl to inflict torture a thousand fold of what Jesus suffered on his own daughter.

Imagined if I designed a computer program, but allowed it to randomly select to do the complete WRONG thing and blow my other appliances up kill my dog or poison my dinner. Would you suggest that I was the greatest computer programmer?

I can't make sense of it. A God should force us to do the best thing for us, since we are stupid, self-destructive monkeys when left to our own devices.

I completely agree. What is more disturbing to me is the fact that God supposedly made us and everything around us right? Therefore he made our minds and the way we think right? The way we think causes us to make certain choices even though we have the ability to make many different ones, we will only choose one right? God is all-knowing so he knows the future right? Therefore he knows what choices we will make and makes us think in ways that cause us to make choices that cause us to go to Hell? Does this not make sense?
DATCMOTO
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4/1/2011 5:29:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 5:33:07 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:26:03 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:20:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Hmmm, but couldn't Christians argue that god sent the law therefore he did educate them. Also remember, in christian theology, sin is rejecting god. Hell is the consequence of sin; ie life without god.

Which law should I follow? Why should I believe that one is the true law over another? Why should I even believe God exists?

Surely God KNOWS that I am skeptical. He knows no matter how many times I'm told "just accept Jesus into your heart and you'll be saved" I'm still going to think that's horse sh!t. I think about God all the time. I take ID into consideration. I still come to the same conclusion.

Do you believe in right and wrong?

An objective right and wrong? Certainly not.
I believe that which benefits or satisfies me is right and to hell with everything else.

So it's wrong to believe in right and wrong?
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
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4/1/2011 5:30:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 8:42:49 AM, tigg13 wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:26:03 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:20:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Hmmm, but couldn't Christians argue that god sent the law therefore he did educate them. Also remember, in christian theology, sin is rejecting god. Hell is the consequence of sin; ie life without god.

Which law should I follow? Why should I believe that one is the true law over another? Why should I even believe God exists?

Surely God KNOWS that I am skeptical. He knows no matter how many times I'm told "just accept Jesus into your heart and you'll be saved" I'm still going to think that's horse sh!t. I think about God all the time. I take ID into consideration. I still come to the same conclusion.

Do you believe in right and wrong?

Yes. And eternal damnation is absolutely wrong.

Even for those who do what they KNOW to be wrong?
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
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4/1/2011 5:33:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/31/2011 8:53:12 AM, tigg13 wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:36:38 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:20:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Hmmm, but couldn't Christians argue that god sent the law therefore he did educate them. Also remember, in christian theology, sin is rejecting god. Hell is the consequence of sin; ie life without god.

Which law should I follow? Why should I believe that one is the true law over another? Why should I even believe God exists?

Surely God KNOWS that I am skeptical. He knows no matter how many times I'm told "just accept Jesus into your heart and you'll be saved" I'm still going to think that's horse sh!t. I think about God all the time. I take ID into consideration. I still come to the same conclusion.

I don't think he really cares. According to him, faith is a positive attribute, so we're a bit sucky for not having it.

Branch Davidians had faith.
Jim Jones' followers had faith.
The Heaven's Gate followers had faith.
The 9/11 terrorists had faith.
The popes that called for the Crusades had faith
The people who burned people for witchcraft had faith.
Children who have been molested by priests and ministers had faith.
Parents who let their children die because they believed that prayer alone would heal them had faith.
Poor people who have donated there life savings so that televangelists could live in big houses and drive new cars had faith.

Why is it exactly that God would think that faith is a good thing?

In WHAT way did the above have a REAL faith? HOW did they trust in Jesus's instructions to:

Matthew 5:43-44 (New International Version 1984, ©1984)

"You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies[b] and pray for those who persecute you,


SAYING you're a believer and then acting like the world doesn't make you a man of faith!
The Cross.. the Cross.
tvellalott
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4/1/2011 5:45:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/1/2011 5:29:38 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:33:07 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:26:03 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:20:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 3/31/2011 5:16:24 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
Hmmm, but couldn't Christians argue that god sent the law therefore he did educate them. Also remember, in christian theology, sin is rejecting god. Hell is the consequence of sin; ie life without god.

Which law should I follow? Why should I believe that one is the true law over another? Why should I even believe God exists?

Surely God KNOWS that I am skeptical. He knows no matter how many times I'm told "just accept Jesus into your heart and you'll be saved" I'm still going to think that's horse sh!t. I think about God all the time. I take ID into consideration. I still come to the same conclusion.

Do you believe in right and wrong?

An objective right and wrong? Certainly not.
I believe that which benefits or satisfies me is right and to hell with everything else.

So it's wrong to believe in right and wrong?

It depends on what your concept of right and wrong is.
A paedophile might think having sex with little kids is right.
A muslim might think women not wearing a burka is wrong.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
tvellalott
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4/1/2011 5:47:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/1/2011 5:30:26 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Even for those who do what they KNOW to be wrong?

Know? Know?!
What do we really know?
Nothing.
We could be mere simulations in a computer of the future, like The Sims 45 or something.

We know nothing.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...