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Religious and Political Variation on DDO

socialpinko
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4/4/2011 8:39:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I saw FREEDO's survey on the distribution of religious and political ideologies among the top debaters on DDO. FREEDO did statistics on the 99th percentile while I have taken statistics on the top 100 debaters. I decided to survey the top 100 debaters as it in effect doubles FREEDO's population statistics. I figured I'd do it to get a more accurate picture of religious and political variation on this site.

Political Variation

(1)No awnser/other- 21%
(2)Libertarian-17%
(3)Conservate-17%
(4)Liberal-12%
(5)Anarchist-11%
(6)Moderate-7%
(7)Progressive--5%
(8)Socialist-4%
(9)Apathetic-3%
(10)Communist-2%
(11)Green-1%

Religious Variation

(1)Atheist-36%
(2)Christian-27%
(3)Agnostic-15%
(4)No awnser/other-14%
(5)Buddhist-3%
(6)Muslim-2%
(7)Jewish-1%
(8)Discordian-1%
(9)Unitarian/Universalist-1%
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
tkubok
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4/4/2011 8:41:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 8:39:12 PM, socialpinko wrote:
I saw FREEDO's survey on the distribution of religious and political ideologies among the top debaters on DDO. FREEDO did statistics on the 99th percentile while I have taken statistics on the top 100 debaters. I decided to survey the top 100 debaters as it in effect doubles FREEDO's population statistics. I figured I'd do it to get a more accurate picture of religious and political variation on this site.

Political Variation

(1)No awnser/other- 21%
(2)Libertarian-17%
(3)Conservate-17%
(4)Liberal-12%
(5)Anarchist-11%
(6)Moderate-7%
(7)Progressive--5%
(8)Socialist-4%
(9)Apathetic-3%
(10)Communist-2%
(11)Green-1%

Religious Variation

(1)Atheist-36%
(2)Christian-27%
(3)Agnostic-15%
(4)No awnser/other-14%
(5)Buddhist-3%
(6)Muslim-2%
(7)Jewish-1%
(8)Discordian-1%
(9)Unitarian/Universalist-1%

All I can say, is im not surprised the Atheists are above the christians, And since agnostics probably include a few more atheists, the true number would probably be higher.

Also, the green party is a joke.
socialpinko
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4/4/2011 8:43:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 8:41:02 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/4/2011 8:39:12 PM, socialpinko wrote:
I saw FREEDO's survey on the distribution of religious and political ideologies among the top debaters on DDO. FREEDO did statistics on the 99th percentile while I have taken statistics on the top 100 debaters. I decided to survey the top 100 debaters as it in effect doubles FREEDO's population statistics. I figured I'd do it to get a more accurate picture of religious and political variation on this site.

Political Variation

(1)No awnser/other- 21%
(2)Libertarian-17%
(3)Conservate-17%
(4)Liberal-12%
(5)Anarchist-11%
(6)Moderate-7%
(7)Progressive--5%
(8)Socialist-4%
(9)Apathetic-3%
(10)Communist-2%
(11)Green-1%

Religious Variation

(1)Atheist-36%
(2)Christian-27%
(3)Agnostic-15%
(4)No awnser/other-14%
(5)Buddhist-3%
(6)Muslim-2%
(7)Jewish-1%
(8)Discordian-1%
(9)Unitarian/Universalist-1%

All I can say, is im not surprised the Atheists are above the christians, And since agnostics probably include a few more atheists, the true number would probably be higher.

Also, the green party is a joke.

I'm sad that the socialists didn't do better. I guess we're all morons.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
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4/4/2011 8:50:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Religious Variation

Compared to statistics of major religions proportional to the rest of the world:

Atheist/Agnostics-51%
Up 35%

Christian-27%
Down 6%

No awnser/other-14%

Buddhist-3%
Down 3%

Muslim-2%
Down 18%

Jewish-1%
Up .78%

Discordian-1%
Figures Unavailable

Unitarian/Universalist-1%
Figures Unavailable
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/4/2011 8:51:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 8:50:06 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Religious Variation

Compared to statistics of major religions proportional to the rest of the world:

Atheist/Agnostics-51%
Up 35%

Christian-27%
Down 6%

No awnser/other-14%

Buddhist-3%
Down 3%

Muslim-2%
Down 18%

Jewish-1%
Up .78%

Discordian-1%
Figures Unavailable

Unitarian/Universalist-1%
Figures Unavailable

Yeah, what this site needs is more jews.
awatkins69
Posts: 28
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4/4/2011 11:00:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 8:41:02 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/4/2011 8:39:12 PM, socialpinko wrote:
I saw FREEDO's survey on the distribution of religious and political ideologies among the top debaters on DDO. FREEDO did statistics on the 99th percentile while I have taken statistics on the top 100 debaters. I decided to survey the top 100 debaters as it in effect doubles FREEDO's population statistics. I figured I'd do it to get a more accurate picture of religious and political variation on this site.

Political Variation

(1)No awnser/other- 21%
(2)Libertarian-17%
(3)Conservate-17%
(4)Liberal-12%
(5)Anarchist-11%
(6)Moderate-7%
(7)Progressive--5%
(8)Socialist-4%
(9)Apathetic-3%
(10)Communist-2%
(11)Green-1%

Religious Variation

(1)Atheist-36%
(2)Christian-27%
(3)Agnostic-15%
(4)No awnser/other-14%
(5)Buddhist-3%
(6)Muslim-2%
(7)Jewish-1%
(8)Discordian-1%
(9)Unitarian/Universalist-1%

All I can say, is im not surprised the Atheists are above the christians, And since agnostics probably include a few more atheists, the true number would probably be higher.

Also, the green party is a joke.

Yeah and all I can say is that I'm not surprised that "Other/no answer" did better than all political affiliations. Seriously, you think this shows something other than that our website has a lot of atheists? Or are atheism and "no political affiliation" just in general smarter ideologies?
feverish
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4/5/2011 5:47:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/4/2011 8:43:09 PM, socialpinko wrote:

I'm sad that the socialists didn't do better. I guess we're all morons.

Speak for yourself :)

I think it's more down to the way socialism is misrepresented and demonised in the American media. If there were more Europeans here, this figure would be very different.
socialpinko
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4/5/2011 3:36:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 5:47:45 AM, feverish wrote:
At 4/4/2011 8:43:09 PM, socialpinko wrote:

I'm sad that the socialists didn't do better. I guess we're all morons.

Speak for yourself :)

I think it's more down to the way socialism is misrepresented and demonised in the American media. If there were more Europeans here, this figure would be very different.

Socialists certainly don't have it easy on this site or in America in general I guess. When calling someone a socialist is in itself a derrogetory term there's a problem.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/5/2011 3:38:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 5:47:45 AM, feverish wrote:
At 4/4/2011 8:43:09 PM, socialpinko wrote:

I'm sad that the socialists didn't do better. I guess we're all morons.

Speak for yourself :)

I think it's more down to the way socialism is misrepresented and demonised in the American media. If there were more Europeans here, this figure would be very different.
Because they do not realize how nonsensical their socialist policies are in their own states.
feverish
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4/6/2011 5:40:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 3:38:38 PM, Mirza wrote:

Because they do not realize how nonsensical their socialist policies are in their own states.

If you're going to call an entire (and extremely broad) ideology nonsensical without providing any justification, then you're basically just talking nonsense yourself.

Also, there are other criteria apart from logic to assess the desirability of a political system. If logic is all that matters in terms of governing human affairs then we might as well plug ourselves into a computer matrix and be done with it.
Mirza
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4/6/2011 6:09:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/6/2011 5:40:22 AM, feverish wrote:
If you're going to call an entire (and extremely broad) ideology nonsensical without providing any justification, then you're basically just talking nonsense yourself.
Did I call socialism nonsensical, or the socialist policies of the European states?

Also, there are other criteria apart from logic to assess the desirability of a political system. If logic is all that matters in terms of governing human affairs then we might as well plug ourselves into a computer matrix and be done with it.
Whether socialism is logical or not does not matter to my point. My point is that it is shameful that some people in my country pay up to 70% of their income tax to 50% of books being wasted in elementary schools, property not being respected, tons of immigrants lying about their status so that the state can spend billions giving them treatment that they don't need and lets them sit in their homes enjoying goods that others work for, and I can go on until the next year. If anyone calls that something good then kudos to him. It takes quite a brave man to call this good, logical, or moral in any way.
tvellalott
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4/6/2011 6:10:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
GTFO SOCIALISTS!!! ^_-

(I wonder what percentage of the Anarchists have strong libertarian beliefs...)
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
feverish
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4/6/2011 6:32:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/6/2011 6:09:31 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/6/2011 5:40:22 AM, feverish wrote:
If you're going to call an entire (and extremely broad) ideology nonsensical without providing any justification, then you're basically just talking nonsense yourself.
Did I call socialism nonsensical, or the socialist policies of the European states?

My apologies for assuming the latter implied the former.

Also, there are other criteria apart from logic to assess the desirability of a political system. If logic is all that matters in terms of governing human affairs then we might as well plug ourselves into a computer matrix and be done with it.

Whether socialism is logical or not does not matter to my point.

You implied it was nonsensical, that was your only point. If something doesn't make sense it is illogical.

My point is that it is shameful that some people in my country pay up to 70% of their income tax to 50% of books being wasted in elementary schools, property not being respected, tons of immigrants lying about their status so that the state can spend billions giving them treatment that they don't need and lets them sit in their homes enjoying goods that others work for, and I can go on until the next year.

Where are you pulling these statistics from?

How can you tell that 70% of income tax goes to 50% of school books? Seems unlikely.

How is a book being wasted by supplying it to a school?

How can you verify that lying illegal immigrants in your country weigh tons? Or that billions are spent on treating them? Or whether they need treatment?

It seems you are talking rot.

If you're going to try to back up your opinions with statistics then you should probably site them. 86.79% of statistics are made up on the spot after all.

At 4/6/2011 6:10:46 AM, tvellalott wrote:
GTFO SOCIALISTS!!! ^_-

GTFO AUSSIES!!!
tvellalott
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4/6/2011 6:45:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/6/2011 6:32:24 AM, feverish wrote:
At 4/6/2011 6:10:46 AM, tvellalott wrote:
GTFO SOCIALISTS!!! ^_-

GTFO AUSSIES!!!

ZOMG! Y U NO LIKE AUSSIES!!!???
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/6/2011 6:50:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/6/2011 6:32:24 AM, feverish wrote:
My apologies for assuming the latter implied the former.
Do you think that the European states represent socialism, and do you find that to be effective?

You implied it was nonsensical, that was your only point. If something doesn't make sense it is illogical.
There are different forms of socialism. I do not mind Titoistic socialism as much as the others. But what I described is illogical, inhumane, and absurd, yes.

Where are you pulling these statistics from?
Any of the many schools I have attended.

How can you tell that 70% of income tax goes to 50% of school books? Seems unlikely.
Did I say that? It was one example among many.

How is a book being wasted by supplying it to a school?
The children are not disciplined because they do not consider the "free" books their properties. That is why they get materials for free quite a lot of times, and I can assure you that too many schools have their containers filled with wasted materials. The result of our idiotic tax system in Denmark.

How can you verify that lying illegal immigrants in your country weigh tons? Or that billions are spent on treating them? Or whether they need treatment?
Look up the statistics for yourself. I do not have to cite them for every single point I make. And, it is true that I cannot find statistics for how many immigrants cheat the system, but I can assure you that the number is shocking. If I were to make statistics, I would make a huge number. I know immigrants here, and I know how they cheat the system effectively.

It seems you are talking rot.
Then please come to my country and experience it for yourself.

If you're going to try to back up your opinions with statistics then you should probably site them. 86.79% of statistics are made up on the spot after all.
What do you want statistics for, something that is being kept completely secret by the people in question? Do you seriously think I can get official data for how many immigrants are cheating the welfare system? I can give you my experience, and if I give you numbers, then that can count as statistics. But I won't waste my time. The fact is that lots of immigrants cheat the system, and then they work illegally so they can earn more money without paying tax. That is nonsense.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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4/6/2011 6:52:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/6/2011 6:45:12 AM, tvellalott wrote:

ZOMG! Y U NO LIKE AUSSIES!!!???

It's an irrational prejudice, mostly based around your collective tendency to end statements with an upward inflection of the voice, as if everything you say is a question. :)
tvellalott
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4/6/2011 6:56:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/6/2011 6:52:24 AM, feverish wrote:
At 4/6/2011 6:45:12 AM, tvellalott wrote:

ZOMG! Y U NO LIKE AUSSIES!!!???

It's an irrational prejudice, mostly based around your collective tendency to end statements with an upward inflection of the voice, as if everything you say is a question. :)

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about... must be a accent thing. You've probably met some Queenslanders. Bloody banana benders. Victorians sound awesome!

BTW, I like your new profile picture. It captures "WHAT THE FVCK ARE YOU DOING?" perfectly.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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4/6/2011 7:01:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/6/2011 6:56:00 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 4/6/2011 6:52:24 AM, feverish wrote:
At 4/6/2011 6:45:12 AM, tvellalott wrote:

ZOMG! Y U NO LIKE AUSSIES!!!???

It's an irrational prejudice, mostly based around your collective tendency to end statements with an upward inflection of the voice, as if everything you say is a question. :)

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about... must be a accent thing. You've probably met some Queenslanders. Bloody banana benders. Victorians sound awesome!

The proper name for it is high rising terminal and it's how British people tend to characterise Australians. Don't really know how widespread it is. http://en.wikipedia.org...

BTW, I like your new profile picture. It captures "WHAT THE FVCK ARE YOU DOING?" perfectly.

Ha ha, cheers, I thought it was appropriate for this site for that reason.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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4/6/2011 7:09:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/6/2011 5:40:22 AM, feverish wrote:
At 4/5/2011 3:38:38 PM, Mirza wrote:

Because they do not realize how nonsensical their socialist policies are in their own states.

If you're going to call an entire (and extremely broad) ideology nonsensical without providing any justification, then you're basically just talking nonsense yourself.

Also, there are other criteria apart from logic to assess the desirability of a political system. If logic is all that matters in terms of governing human affairs then we might as well plug ourselves into a computer matrix and be done with it.

Problem with Transhumanism, dawg?

Seriously, though. You're right that there are things other than logic governing human politics. We have a value concern for our own well-being; however, this is where the emotional concerns end. We have values that we want to achieve--the actual process of governing (inb4 anarchists) requires a strict an application of logic as you can find. "Feelings" are really shoddy if you try to make them into tools whose purpose is the organization of human society.
feverish
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4/6/2011 7:10:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/6/2011 6:50:33 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/6/2011 6:32:24 AM, feverish wrote:
My apologies for assuming the latter implied the former.
Do you think that the European states represent socialism, and do you find that to be effective?

In all honesty, I'm pretty ignorant of the details of other European countries political systems, I know they tend to be characterised as socialist, especially by Americans but don't really know how accurate such analysis is.

You implied it was nonsensical, that was your only point. If something doesn't make sense it is illogical.
There are different forms of socialism. I do not mind Titoistic socialism as much as the others. But what I described is illogical, inhumane, and absurd, yes.

Where are you pulling these statistics from?
Any of the many schools I have attended.

So you're talking about your experiences and just making up numbers that you think reflect them?

How can you tell that 70% of income tax goes to 50% of school books? Seems unlikely.
Did I say that?

Yeah, pretty sure you did.

It was one example among many.

How is a book being wasted by supplying it to a school?
The children are not disciplined because they do not consider the "free" books their properties. That is why they get materials for free quite a lot of times, and I can assure you that too many schools have their containers filled with wasted materials. The result of our idiotic tax system in Denmark.

I think it's moral, good, logical and practical for schools to have a large supply of books.

How can you verify that lying illegal immigrants in your country weigh tons? Or that billions are spent on treating them? Or whether they need treatment?
Look up the statistics for yourself. I do not have to cite them for every single point I make. And, it is true that I cannot find statistics for how many immigrants cheat the system, but I can assure you that the number is shocking. If I were to make statistics, I would make a huge number. I know immigrants here, and I know how they cheat the system effectively.

If a system is beng cheated then reform may well be needed. People abusing a system is not necessarily a basis to dismiss the system.

It seems you are talking rot.
Then please come to my country and experience it for yourself.

I would like to travel more but Denmark is not really near the top of my list.

If you're going to try to back up your opinions with statistics then you should probably site them. 86.79% of statistics are made up on the spot after all.
What do you want statistics for, something that is being kept completely secret by the people in question? Do you seriously think I can get official data for how many immigrants are cheating the welfare system? I can give you my experience, and if I give you numbers, then that can count as statistics. But I won't waste my time.

Well make your points without statisics then if you can't prove them.

If you're plucking figures out of thin air to support your position then that is basically lying.

The fact is that lots of immigrants cheat the system, and then they work illegally so they can earn more money without paying tax. That is nonsense.

It may be wrong, but I would have thought it would make a lot of sense from their individual perspectives.
Mirza
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4/6/2011 7:40:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/6/2011 7:10:44 AM, feverish wrote:
In all honesty, I'm pretty ignorant of the details of other European countries political systems, I know they tend to be characterised as socialist, especially by Americans but don't really know how accurate such analysis is.
Very few should logically be considered socialist, but the way they make use of socialistic principles is totally inhumane.

So you're talking about your experiences and just making up numbers that you think reflect them?
I don't make up numbers. If I do, I am undermining them, not exaggerating. I do not have totally exact numbers, nor do any major statistics, but what I am saying is as easily observable as the sun. I have been to schools, and I have seen how people deal with things they did not directly pay for. Let me give you a comparison. In elementary school, you get notebooks for free. It was normal to see them flow around the class and just be made useless. In high school, you buy them for yourself (at least the one I am going to). Do you know how many I have seen on the floor? Hardly any. But we do get other paper materials for free here, like in elementary school, and those free materials are wasted. What do you think it proves? That what you get free from school due to taxpayers is what you consider to be of lesser value.

Yeah, pretty sure you did.
No, I said that those who pay 70% of their income tax have to pay for tons of books/materials being wasted. But that is one part. They also pay for expensive healthcare and many other things.

I think it's moral, good, logical and practical for schools to have a large supply of books.
Irrelevant. Large supplies of educational materials are good. But that's not what I am arguing against. I am arguing against taxpayers having to pay for such things when people clearly cannot take care of them. When they start paying on their own, then people would make far better uses of materials than they do now that they get them for free.

If a system is beng cheated then reform may well be needed.
The politicians seem to either be unaware of that or they are afraid of speaking out because statistics are very hard to get. People will not tell the truth about their lies.

People abusing a system is not necessarily a basis to dismiss the system.
So, if I work hard and cannot buy what I want to buy because I have to pay 2/3 of my income to wasteful material and other unnecessary things, and my income goes to people who lie and pretend to be psychopaths, and the state has to spend billions on people who are a waste to this society, then there is no basis for dismissing the current system and applying something more practical and humane? I don't care if you are a socialist, but this system is dumb and idiotic, and anyone who has a little sense of what is going on within its frames will realize how stupid it is to support it.

I would like to travel more but Denmark is not really near the top of my list.
It was more of a rhetorical point.

Well make your points without statisics then if you can't prove them.
Why are statistics necessary? Why do they matter? Does it change something if I give you what I have analyzed, or what a random person has analyzed and merely called his analysis a statistic? Do you think I am trying to oppose something for no good reason? I oppose it because I see ungrateful immigrants pretending to be ill when they talk to their social advisors, whine about not getting "enough" money through their lies, and so on and so forth. I oppose it because by attending numerous schools, I have seen how children have treated differently the materials they paid for and the materials they got for free.

If you're plucking figures out of thin air to support your position then that is basically lying.
I believe in what I am saying, and I believe I have evidence and experience enough not to lie about it. Name a single reason why I would lie about it. I enjoy living here. That's no problem. But I have a moral opposition to what is going on. And, if so many statistics are made up on the spot, then I think that it is now completely unnecessary for me to give you statistics because you could argue the same way against them. They are as subjective as I am, right?

It may be wrong, but I would have thought it would make a lot of sense from their individual perspectives.
How does it make sense? They literally lie about their health, past, and whatnot, so that they get a relatively high income, yet they work illegally and cheat the system not only one way, but two ways at bare minimum.
feverish
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4/6/2011 7:48:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/6/2011 7:09:05 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 4/6/2011 5:40:22 AM, feverish wrote:

Also, there are other criteria apart from logic to assess the desirability of a political system. If logic is all that matters in terms of governing human affairs then we might as well plug ourselves into a computer matrix and be done with it.

Problem with Transhumanism, dawg?

Seriously, though. You're right that there are things other than logic governing human politics. We have a value concern for our own well-being; however, this is where the emotional concerns end. We have values that we want to achieve--the actual process of governing (inb4 anarchists) requires a strict an application of logic as you can find. "Feelings" are really shoddy if you try to make them into tools whose purpose is the organization of human society.

I guess for a moral nihilist, logic and self-interest are all that really matter. I happen to think social justice is an important criteria for a good political system though.
Mirza
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4/6/2011 7:49:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/6/2011 7:46:27 AM, Danielle wrote:
Feverish is a very patient man.
Is this one of your idiotic ad hominems against me? If so, then debate me on the Danish system anytime.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/6/2011 7:58:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/6/2011 7:49:53 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/6/2011 7:46:27 AM, Danielle wrote:
Feverish is a very patient man.
Is this one of your idiotic ad hominems against me? If so, then debate me on the Danish system anytime.

I said nothing about you and only commended feverish. I admire him as a person; I am a lot less patient than he is. Also, you never debate me when I call you out... so lol @ me debating you on something YOU want to debate about. Anyway I'm not a socialist :) And I wouldn't pretend to know anything about Denmark. I don't like to talk assertively about things I know very little about unlike some people.
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Mirza
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4/6/2011 8:00:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/6/2011 7:58:18 AM, Danielle wrote:
I said nothing about you and only commended feverish. I admire him as a person; I am a lot less patient than he is.
Good, and you have a proper reason to admire him. That's not the problem. The problem is when you compliment someone on the basis of how he deals with me. That is childish.

Also, you never debate me when I call you out... so lol @ me debating you on something YOU want to debate about.
What is the difference?

Anyway I'm not a socialist :) And I wouldn't pretend to know anything about Denmark. I don't like to talk assertively about things I know very little about unlike some people.
I know about Denmark, and I argue against many parts of its system. I think I am being patient when dealing with people who think that the system is justified, not vice versa.
feverish
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4/6/2011 8:09:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/6/2011 7:40:00 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/6/2011 7:10:44 AM, feverish wrote:

So you're talking about your experiences and just making up numbers that you think reflect them?
I don't make up numbers. If I do, I am undermining them, not exaggerating.

Eh? Either you do or you don't. You presented numbers, you've admtted that there is no source for them, so yes, you made them up.

I do not have totally exact numbers, nor do any major statistics, but what I am saying is as easily observable as the sun. I have been to schools, and I have seen how people deal with things they did not directly pay for.

That's all lovely anecdotal information, but it's dishonest to present it a statistical facts.
Let me give you a comparison. In elementary school, you get notebooks for free. It was normal to see them flow around the class and just be made useless. In high school, you buy them for yourself (at least the one I am going to). Do you know how many I have seen on the floor? Hardly any. But we do get other paper materials for free here, like in elementary school, and those free materials are wasted. What do you think it proves? That what you get free from school due to taxpayers is what you consider to be of lesser value.

Students who wantonly waste public resources should of course be disciplined.

Yeah, pretty sure you did.
No, I said that those who pay 70% of their income tax have to pay for tons of books/materials being wasted.

Here's what you said:

At 4/6/2011 6:09:31 AM, Mirza wrote:
some people in my country pay up to 70% of their income tax to 50% of books being wasted in elementary schools

Maybe I misunderstood your point, but that's definitely what you sad.

I think it's moral, good, logical and practical for schools to have a large supply of books.
Irrelevant. Large supplies of educational materials are good. But that's not what I am arguing against. I am arguing against taxpayers having to pay for such things when people clearly cannot take care of them. When they start paying on their own, then people would make far better uses of materials than they do now that they get them for free.

Obviously kids from poor families would have less materials if they had to pay for them themselves. I see that as bad because it restricts equality of opportunity.

If a system is beng cheated then reform may well be needed.
The politicians seem to either be unaware of that or they are afraid of speaking out because statistics are very hard to get. People will not tell the truth about their lies.

So reforms may well be needed, that doesn't mean throwing out the entire system.

People abusing a system is not necessarily a basis to dismiss the system.
So, if I work hard and cannot buy what I want to buy because I have to pay 2/3 of my income to wasteful material and other unnecessary things, and my income goes to people who lie and pretend to be psychopaths, and the state has to spend billions on people who are a waste to this society, then there is no basis for dismissing the current system and applying something more practical and humane? I don't care if you are a socialist, but this system is dumb and idiotic, and anyone who has a little sense of what is going on within its frames will realize how stupid it is to support it.

The existing system could well become more practical and humane if reformed, again a system being abused doesn't invalidate its premises.


Well make your points without statisics then if you can't prove them.
Why are statistics necessary? Why do they matter?

You're the one trying to use them, you tell me.

Does it change something if I give you what I have analyzed, or what a random person has analyzed and merely called his analysis a statistic? Do you think I am trying to oppose something for no good reason? I oppose it because I see ungrateful immigrants pretending to be ill when they talk to their social advisors, whine about not getting "enough" money through their lies, and so on and so forth. I oppose it because by attending numerous schools, I have seen how children have treated differently the materials they paid for and the materials they got for free.

If you're plucking figures out of thin air to support your position then that is basically lying.
I believe in what I am saying, and I believe I have evidence and experience enough not to lie about it. Name a single reason why I would lie about it.

No idea, maybe to appear more well-informed than you are?

I enjoy living here. That's no problem. But I have a moral opposition to what is going on. And, if so many statistics are made up on the spot, then I think that it is now completely unnecessary for me to give you statistics because you could argue the same way against them. They are as subjective as I am, right?

Well if you show me where they come from and it's a reputable source, then they would be far more objective than if you just make them up. As I said, if you can make your points without statistics then please do so.

It may be wrong, but I would have thought it would make a lot of sense from their individual perspectives.
How does it make sense? They literally lie about their health, past, and whatnot, so that they get a relatively high income, yet they work illegally and cheat the system not only one way, but two ways at bare minimum.

It makes perfect sense to them if they benefit from it. I think you mean to say that it's wrong, which is fair enough. It's not really important if we have a different understanding of the word "sense".