Total Posts:58|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Without the bible?

CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 12:19:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
God = Actuality

No book is evidence for god. The world around you is. As it is written in the pages of the Cosmicomicon, which is also reality. God and God's word are one and the same.

Books about God do more damage to people's conception of God than anything. Hell, language does a good number to people's conception of God. God doesn't even go by the name God.. Or reality for that matter.. Or actuality... If you ask God for a name, God proceeds to flex naked right in front of you.

All those ancient religious texts are either interpretations of God, or an attempt at using the concept of God to scare people into doing stupid sh!t.

Religions also happen to have a side effect of making it's adherents stand out as either liars or fools.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 3:26:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I somewhat agree with Cosmic, which doesn't often happen.

If you believe in objective truths, and you believe in purpose of existence you have the basis of faith. If you build upon that basis spiritual principles that exist, whether or not we choose to acknowledge them, you further understand the fundamental nature of God as best we can understand Him, and we see the holy texts in a different light. When you begin looking at the world around you through this basic structure, you start connecting the dots and more and more that faith that started with simple purpose grows.

Essentially it is a personal experience for many, and not a product of the scientific method.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 3:54:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/8/2011 10:01:36 PM, reddj2 wrote:
Where is the evidence of god other than the bible?

The evidence for god's existence is really the same regardless of the existence of any holy book. Evidence for god is at best insufficient and at worst ludicrous. While I am a disbelieving infidel, defending god's existence is still fun though.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Ogan
Posts: 407
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 7:08:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/8/2011 10:01:36 PM, reddj2 wrote:
Where is the evidence of god other than the bible?

There has never been evidence of God at time other than those who have become Conscious of Reception. Those who have not, gain faith by studying the writings of the followers of the former. All can gain this Interior Consciousness, but most spurn and mock it and therefore cannot receive it, and consequently remain in the darkness of animal senses.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 10:02:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I agree with Innomen, at a fundamental level, as I can comprehend both the tree and the complexity of the forest within one breadth.... that God is quite apparent to me. To deny it is ludicrous or very near sighted.

Also I would build upon that and point to the fact that any scriptures (being that a writting was the medium of our world up until Now) a book is the most effective tool.

Using the natural and effective medium writing, is just something I have zero problem with, in fact without it, we would not be discussing this!

Also God will reveal his power in a short time from now, on Television. Those athiest claims, for a stubby amputee to be restored, will be "one-upped". He will in fact ressurect two individuals on Television in front of the entire world.

and I would bet you good money when a prophet comes along and ressurects someone from the dead, it will be called a fake.
When a prophet restores an amputee it will be claimed "this person had a latent reptile gene that allowed it to dramatically regrow! Proof of Evolution"
Ha!

I say you are stuck with the Book and anything else you get will start with humility.

Numbers 12.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 10:06:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/8/2011 10:01:36 PM, reddj2 wrote:
Where is the evidence of god other than the bible?

Are you looking for physcial evidence?
1) Go to a Catholic Monestary/Eastern Orthodox Monestary and study with the Monks, you will be overwhelmed.

Are you looking for Logical Argumentation?
1) Go to William lane Craigs site. He discussing nearly 100 different logical proof and refutations of Athiestic viewpoints.

If you are looking for someones experience of God
1) Find Christians that have claimed to encountered God and discuss with them.
2) Then scientifically verify their claims by following the same process and order of events as they did.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 12:18:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
God is one of those things that exists depending on how you define it. It's all in your understanding of the concept.

Some understandings of God make it so that God obviously exists.

Some understandings of God make it so that God doesn't seem likely at all to exist.

Some understandings of God make it so that it's possible, but impossible to know for sure given the information we have.

It's kind of silly to say that the atheist position can be refuted, because even an atheist believes in the universe.. Even an atheist believes in actuality. Some atheists believe that they themselves are God. Some go a step further and fall into solipsism.

The concept of God is a silly one to attempt to refute. The idea that God's specific word was written in a book.. Now that is something worth arguing against. To say that God's special word is contained in a book is blasphemy. A sin that will likely keep you from finding yourself in heaven.(which is a state of mind, a contentedness, a peace... Something that comes with integrity and a desire to get understanding.)

Contemporary atheists tend to be very ignorant about religion, yet they are arrogant in their knowledge about it. They have reached a level of non-communication that really doesn't help their cause.

You become a more effective communicator if you stop calling the religionists fuggin' tarded.

There is one thing good that comes out of most atheist's utter ignorance of theology.. It's that they show how badly the bible can be interpreted(often times more so than the fundamentalist Christians who put the bad interpretation into action) when you are too lazy to take the time to understand it.

Course then again, I'm of the opinion that if you interpret the bible correctly, you are no longer a Christian.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 2:46:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 10:02:42 AM, Gileandos wrote:
Also God will reveal his power in a short time from now, on Television. Those athiest claims, for a stubby amputee to be restored, will be "one-upped". He will in fact ressurect two individuals on Television in front of the entire world.

Funny, the Muslims are telling me the same thing... Well, almost the same.

I dont understand why peope keep saying this. Its so unconvincing and its like a form of mental masturbation, as far as im concerned.

and I would bet you good money when a prophet comes along and ressurects someone from the dead, it will be called a fake.
When a prophet restores an amputee it will be claimed "this person had a latent reptile gene that allowed it to dramatically regrow! Proof of Evolution"
Ha!

Yes, because, clearly, that sort of thing happens all the time, and, again, clearly, scientists and atheists and all the other helpers of satan are shrugging it off b explaining it with evolution or some other lie perpetuated by the evil helpers of Satan....

Oh wait. It doesnt happen at all. Infact, when was the last time you ever heard of some supernatural and medically impossible thing ever occuring? And its funny, too, because 2000 years ago, this sort of thing seemed to have happened extremely frequently, but then, we gained the ability to actually record history, and these instances became less and less. Normally, that would be a red flag for some people, but not for people like you apparently.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 4:40:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 10:02:42 AM, Gileandos wrote:

When a prophet restores an amputee it will be claimed "this person had a latent reptile gene that allowed it to dramatically regrow! Proof of Evolution"

If you are going to attempt to satire science at least be accurate. Regeneration is common in amphibians not reptiles which are two different classes. In particular the newt has been studied in depth in regards to limb regeneration. The process requires regression to stem cell and differentiation and thus can take up to three months. Thus if a prophet demonstrated this on TV, even if the healed individual was one of Geo's shape shifting lizard people, that would not be enough to explain essential explosion of cellular activity.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 5:46:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 10:02:42 AM, Gileandos wrote:
I agree with Innomen, at a fundamental level, as I can comprehend both the tree and the complexity of the forest within one breadth.... that God is quite apparent to me. To deny it is ludicrous or very near sighted.:

Let's suppose for the sake of the argument that there is sufficient evidence to assume an Intelligent Designer. We still would know nothing of the Designer's wishes. That still leaves everyone wondering which god is the real God and which gods are false gods, indeed, no gods at all.

Because of the law of non-contradiction, two or more gods of opposing opinions cannot simultaneously both be true if the central tenets of the belief systems contradict one another.

Allah says if you don't follow him, you burn in hell. Jehova says if you don't follow him, you burn in hell. YHWH says if you don't follow him, you burn in hell. Then you have the pantheists and every subdivision and denomination imaginable. Mind you, we're supposed to just take ALL of them on faith. They're like competing companies haggling for your money. Which do you turn to???

Please take careful note that geography and social more play the largest role in which religion someone chooses, not special visitations that no one else can perceive but them.

The fact of the matter is Indians still predominantly follow one another in Hinduism, Americans (North and South Americans) still predominantly follow one another with Christianity, Middle-Eastern's still predominantly follow one another with Islam. Is this a massive coincide or does maybe (just maybe) the power of suggestion, cultural influences, and geography play a massive role in this?

Also God will reveal his power in a short time from now, on Television. Those athiest claims, for a stubby amputee to be restored, will be "one-upped". He will in fact ressurect two individuals on Television in front of the entire world.:

A lot of other crazy things are supposed to happen a long time before the Two Witnesses come on the scene.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 5:48:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 4:40:19 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 4/9/2011 10:02:42 AM, Gileandos wrote:

When a prophet restores an amputee it will be claimed "this person had a latent reptile gene that allowed it to dramatically regrow! Proof of Evolution"

If you are going to attempt to satire science at least be accurate. Regeneration is common in amphibians not reptiles which are two different classes.:

Lizards regenerate lost tails.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PervRat
Posts: 963
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 5:54:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 12:19:39 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
God = Actuality

No book is evidence for god. The world around you is. As it is written in the pages of the Cosmicomicon, which is also reality. God and God's word are one and the same.

Completely illogical reasoning. That there is a word around you is no more proof of the existence of a deity-creator than easter eggs (chicken eggs decorated fancily by people) prove the easter bunny is real or a drawing in crayon by a 2-year old is proof it was created by Picasso.

Debate and reasoning require hard, solid facts and proof, not existential flowery wors.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 6:00:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 5:54:51 PM, PervRat wrote:
At 4/9/2011 12:19:39 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
God = Actuality

No book is evidence for god. The world around you is. As it is written in the pages of the Cosmicomicon, which is also reality. God and God's word are one and the same.

Completely illogical reasoning. That there is a word around you is no more proof of the existence of a deity-creator than easter eggs (chicken eggs decorated fancily by people) prove the easter bunny is real:

Whoa, whoa, whoa.... Are you denying the existence of the Easter Bunny? The Easter Bunny and I have a special relationship where it communicates with me telepathically.

I don't have evidence of this per se, but you can just take me at my word.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 7:23:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 4:40:19 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 4/9/2011 10:02:42 AM, Gileandos wrote:

When a prophet restores an amputee it will be claimed "this person had a latent reptile gene that allowed it to dramatically regrow! Proof of Evolution"

If you are going to attempt to satire science at least be accurate. Regeneration is common in amphibians not reptiles which are two different classes. In particular the newt has been studied in depth in regards to limb regeneration. The process requires regression to stem cell and differentiation and thus can take up to three months. Thus if a prophet demonstrated this on TV, even if the healed individual was one of Geo's shape shifting lizard people, that would not be enough to explain essential explosion of cellular activity.

LOL, thank you for the clarity.

In fact, lizards are able to regenerate their tails and that was what I was referring to :)

Also, I was directly thinking of the Lizard Man in the Marvel Comics which is a humorous near sudden change :)

You can not tell me though that, every Athiest would up and cry victory for God! No matter, the circumstances, the footage was altered, it was this or that etc...
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 7:33:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 5:46:20 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 4/9/2011 10:02:42 AM, Gileandos wrote:
I agree with Innomen, at a fundamental level, as I can comprehend both the tree and the complexity of the forest within one breadth.... that God is quite apparent to me. To deny it is ludicrous or very near sighted.:

Let's suppose for the sake of the argument that there is sufficient evidence to assume an Intelligent Designer. We still would know nothing of the Designer's wishes. That still leaves everyone wondering which god is the real God and which gods are false gods, indeed, no gods at all.

Because of the law of non-contradiction, two or more gods of opposing opinions cannot simultaneously both be true if the central tenets of the belief systems contradict one another.

Allah says if you don't follow him, you burn in hell. Jehova says if you don't follow him, you burn in hell. YHWH says if you don't follow him, you burn in hell. Then you have the pantheists and every subdivision and denomination imaginable. Mind you, we're supposed to just take ALL of them on faith. They're like competing companies haggling for your money. Which do you turn to???

Please take careful note that geography and social more play the largest role in which religion someone chooses, not special visitations that no one else can perceive but them.

The fact of the matter is Indians still predominantly follow one another in Hinduism, Americans (North and South Americans) still predominantly follow one another with Christianity, Middle-Eastern's still predominantly follow one another with Islam. Is this a massive coincide or does maybe (just maybe) the power of suggestion, cultural influences, and geography play a massive role in this?

For the Christian, all of these gods are true gods and with some of them long ago made up, but the vast majority are indeed supernatural gods with abilities and the like.

It reminds me of the Athiest concept "We just believe in one less god than you do!"

Not entirely accurate a statement as Christians believe there is a God of the Universe, then there is his rebrobate Angel who is god (in charge) of this world. Then there are a multitude of the fallen's servents and then there is even neutral supernatural agents called demons.

In essence we also claim there is a cocophany of chaotic chatter in the spirit realm with competeing gods for power.

However, these do not posess the quality of Diety as does Yah, the Judeo Christian God.

To sort through them is to source power and claim, it is a rather effective process.
If God is true then His followers would be blessed and more powerful than all of the others.
Christianity has been more successful than all other religions and appears to be the most blessed against all of the worshipers of the "other" gods.
I would start from there as a logical starting point.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 7:47:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 2:46:29 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/9/2011 10:02:42 AM, Gileandos wrote:
Also God will reveal his power in a short time from now, on Television. Those athiest claims, for a stubby amputee to be restored, will be "one-upped". He will in fact ressurect two individuals on Television in front of the entire world.

Funny, the Muslims are telling me the same thing... Well, almost the same.

Remember, the muslim religion came out of the Judeo Christian system and Bible, then muhammad was rejected as a prophet, he turned on them, made up some additional stuff, then over two hundred years more stuff was added.


I dont understand why peope keep saying this. Its so unconvincing and its like a form of mental masturbation, as far as im concerned.

The convincing part is how clear this prophecy is in light of what we know about television that was not known when the book was written, the numbers of armies, the information about the nations and even the references to nukes.

Put on top of that, the invention of the television which was clearly unknown at the time makes the prophesied event quite possible, it is rather exciting, but notice it does not convince the majority when they are resurrected.

and I would bet you good money when a prophet comes along and ressurects someone from the dead, it will be called a fake.
When a prophet restores an amputee it will be claimed "this person had a latent reptile gene that allowed it to dramatically regrow! Proof of Evolution"
Ha!

Yes, because, clearly, that sort of thing happens all the time, and, again, clearly, scientists and atheists and all the other helpers of satan are shrugging it off b explaining it with evolution or some other lie perpetuated by the evil helpers of Satan....

Oh wait. It doesnt happen at all. Infact, when was the last time you ever heard of some supernatural and medically impossible thing ever occuring? And its funny, too, because 2000 years ago, this sort of thing seemed to have happened extremely frequently, but then, we gained the ability to actually record history, and these instances became less and less. Normally, that would be a red flag for some people, but not for people like you apparently.

Ever hear the term of "dilution is the solution"?
The red flag is a deductive fallacy, when you enter the premise when you move further from an accurate source and continue to pour into that source more and more innaccuracies what do you inevitably get?

People who will not be as close to the truth when discerning the things of God, it will require truly humble individuals that God can use to manifest His power.

The further you get from the pure source of information/perspective, compounded by lies and distortions entering in at every opportunity, it is quite natural and reasonable to believe that miracles will decrease based on fewer people having that pure source of information.

The question is how do you get back to that pure source? I want to point out there are documented claims of healing supported by doctors and hospitals.

Did you know that?
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 8:13:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 7:23:27 PM, Gileandos wrote:

In fact, lizards are able to regenerate their tails and that was what I was referring to :)

Lizards (not all of them) can have fracture lines in the tail vertebrae and they are designed to separate under or even before light stress. Note the tail regrows, it would not be consider regeneration as it has not been established that the lymphatic vessels for example are regenerated.

Also, I was directly thinking of the Lizard Man in the Marvel Comics which is a humorous near sudden change :)

Maybe that is Wolverines secret, he is part newt.

You can not tell me though that, every Athiest would up and cry victory for God! No matter, the circumstances, the footage was altered, it was this or that etc...

If a claim was made, almost every empiricist would demand to see evidence and further almost every one of them would ask to see the claim replicated under controlled conditions. Note for example there are living people who claim such abilities, Sathya Sai Baba for example claims to be Jesus (and Allah and Krishna, etc.) was born of a virgin, performs miracles including raising the dead back to life. People are skeptical of his claims, would you really think it reasonable to be otherwise.

Though I admit that yes, even if you had it done under controlled conditions, there would still be people who would hold fast that is was just a trick - however they would be obviously being very hypocritical as the evidence they asked for was provided and still they do not believe.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 8:31:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 8:13:58 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 4/9/2011 7:23:27 PM, Gileandos wrote:


Maybe that is Wolverines secret, he is part newt.

ROFL that was fast funny!
Get a Gene GUN baby! You will be a millionaire!


You can not tell me though that, every Athiest would up and cry victory for God! No matter, the circumstances, the footage was altered, it was this or that etc...

If a claim was made, almost every empiricist would demand to see evidence and further almost every one of them would ask to see the claim replicated under controlled conditions. Note for example there are living people who claim such abilities, Sathya Sai Baba for example claims to be Jesus (and Allah and Krishna, etc.) was born of a virgin, performs miracles including raising the dead back to life. People are skeptical of his claims, would you really think it reasonable to be otherwise.

Though I admit that yes, even if you had it done under controlled conditions, there would still be people who would hold fast that is was just a trick - however they would be obviously being very hypocritical as the evidence they asked for was provided and still they do not believe.

Thank you!
I agree the hypocrisy would be rampant.

I would also point out that God being the King of the Universe has no reason or desire to "prove" himself to what amounts to ant refuse (humans) by comparison. He is only going to prove himself to those who are humble, know their station and respect the office of God.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 9:08:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
For the Christian, all of these gods are true gods and with some of them long ago made up, but the vast majority are indeed supernatural gods with abilities and the like.:

So then you believe in the Pantheon which is against one of the central themes in Christianity?

It reminds me of the Athiest concept "We just believe in one less god than you do!":

It's a good point if you think about it.

Not entirely accurate a statement as Christians believe there is a God of the Universe, then there is his rebrobate Angel who is god (in charge) of this world. Then there are a multitude of the fallen's servents and then there is even neutral supernatural agents called demons.:

God's going to destroy said demons but decides to allow them plenty of time to torment mankind. That would make God complicit in the torment.

However, these do not posess the quality of Diety as does Yah, the Judeo Christian God.:

Okay, but that's your belief, which you expect me to take on faith. How is that any different than a Muslim expecting me to believe Allah by faith?

So the question then becomes whether faith is enough without some kind of qualifier, because if I'm to take them both on faith then I run the risk of idol worship.

Christianity has been more successful than all other religions and appears to be the most blessed against all of the worshipers of the "other" gods.:

Strictly going by the numbers, Christianity is a dying religion that is losing its relevance more and more by the day, and is very evidently being supplanted by Islam.

It's no different than Mithraism, really. This Persian religion was the dominant religion until Christianity came along. They competed and eventually Mithraism lost all relevance. It's now Islam's turn.

I would start from there as a logical starting point.:

I am, which is why some kind of proof of this extraordinary claim would be just capital!
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 9:09:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 8:31:28 PM, Gileandos wrote:

I would also point out that God being the King of the Universe has no reason or desire to "prove" himself to what amounts to ant refuse (humans) by comparison. He is only going to prove himself to those who are humble, know their station and respect the office of God.

Yes, but this argument actually contends that everyone who has sought and not obtained divine witness is simply unwilling to see, i.e., their heart is hardened. Note the real problem with this definition is that it also allows any claim to be made about the nature of God because there is no way in the argument to quantify divine witness. The argument has as proof that someone is the type to have witness by the nature that they have had it - thus once the claim is made it can not be refuted.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 9:53:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 9:08:45 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
For the Christian, all of these gods are true gods and with some of them long ago made up, but the vast majority are indeed supernatural gods with abilities and the like.:

So then you believe in the Pantheon which is against one of the central themes in Christianity?

Christianity is not against Pantheism in that way, we state there is one supreme God who is Diety, His creations revolted long ago in eternity past and setup themselves as gods over mankind. Satan is god of this world, ie zues, Odin, Osiris etc, and the other fallen angels are the other gods posited in history.
However, Christianity also claims there is only one big "G" God.

Here is the concept, if a hindu walks up and tells you he experienced Shiva, you would claim he is in error. He would not believe you because indeed his experience was a valid one.

If he directly stated that claim to a Christian, we would not in anyway downplay his experience with those powers of "darkness". They are indeed real, we would point to the fact that we have a superior power source, hence the conversion of nearly 700 million hindu's in Inda over the last 30 years.


It reminds me of the Athiest concept "We just believe in one less god than you do!":

It's a good point if you think about it.

If you read my next statement we do believe in a multitude of little gods however we do not worship them we actually are at war with them.


Not entirely accurate a statement as Christians believe there is a God of the Universe, then there is his rebrobate Angel who is god (in charge) of this world. Then there are a multitude of the fallen's servents and then there is even neutral supernatural agents called demons.:

God's going to destroy said demons but decides to allow them plenty of time to torment mankind. That would make God complicit in the torment.

From the Bible the book of Romans chapter 2:
So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done."[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger

God is allowing the wrongs so that we should all repent. Those who join the Kingdom of heaven have a wall of protection from such beings.

To state that God is complicit in the torment is to ignore the clear implications of reality.
Ex:
If God could have stopped hilter why didnt he?
If God "killed" Hitler as a Baby, he would be condemned as a baby killer.
If God allows WWII he is a mass murderer.

We are simply not in a good position to judge God's actions and motivations to render a judgement of God being complicit. We do not have all knowledge.


However, these do not posess the quality of Diety as does Yah, the Judeo Christian God.:

Okay, but that's your belief, which you expect me to take on faith. How is that any different than a Muslim expecting me to believe Allah by faith?

So the question then becomes whether faith is enough without some kind of qualifier, because if I'm to take them both on faith then I run the risk of idol worship.

Reasoned faith vs blind faith, what I have laid out is a reasoned faith and one that comes to understanding.


Christianity has been more successful than all other religions and appears to be the most blessed against all of the worshipers of the "other" gods.:

Strictly going by the numbers, Christianity is a dying religion that is losing its relevance more and more by the day, and is very evidently being supplanted by Islam.

Um, not accurate. The muslim faith is only growing by birth, the conversion ratio of Christianity far outpaces the muslim faith, In africa alone 6 million muslims convert to Christianity a year, not counting the vast numbers of pagans.
700 million Indians have converted in just the last 30 years, Korea is now 25% Christian in just the last 20. Mongolia is now 40%, Russia is expanding and there is still no confirmed count. The Eastern Orthodox is now at 400 Million in the Middle East and into Russia.
You may want to recheck your stats as Christianity is the largest religion by alot and growing fast through conversion worldwide.


It's no different than Mithraism, really. This Persian religion was the dominant religion until Christianity came along. They competed and eventually Mithraism lost all relevance. It's now Islam's turn.

Again statistically innaccurate. We believe that all the religions were backed by a power of some sort. Christianity won due to a stronger power source. This is a power you can personally experience.


I would start from there as a logical starting point.:

I am, which is why some kind of proof of this extraordinary claim would be just capital!

I do not understand the above statement.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 10:47:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 7:47:55 PM, Gileandos wrote:
Remember, the muslim religion came out of the Judeo Christian system and Bible, then muhammad was rejected as a prophet, he turned on them, made up some additional stuff, then over two hundred years more stuff was added.
Muhammad was never rejected as a Prophet, nor did the Quran have anything added to it over two hundred years. Unlike the bible, we have a couple copies of the Quran around the time it was written, so we know.

Your knowledge of Islam is terrible.

The convincing part is how clear this prophecy is in light of what we know about television that was not known when the book was written, the numbers of armies, the information about the nations and even the references to nukes.

Put on top of that, the invention of the television which was clearly unknown at the time makes the prophesied event quite possible, it is rather exciting, but notice it does not convince the majority when they are resurrected.

What prophecy talks about Television and the number of armies and the information about natns and nukes? Please, clarify.

Ever hear the term of "dilution is the solution"?
Yes. And how does it relate to what we are talking about?

The red flag is a deductive fallacy, when you enter the premise when you move further from an accurate source and continue to pour into that source more and more innaccuracies what do you inevitably get?

People who will not be as close to the truth when discerning the things of God, it will require truly humble individuals that God can use to manifest His power.

The further you get from the pure source of information/perspective, compounded by lies and distortions entering in at every opportunity, it is quite natural and reasonable to believe that miracles will decrease based on fewer people having that pure source of information.

No, the argument still fails, and heres why.

2000 years ago,was the age of many people claiming to be prophets and doing miracles and other stuff. Its why Jesus, reportedly, HAD to resurrect himself otherwise all his other miracles were no different than those that other prophets did.

Yet, clearly these false prophets couldnt be true. They couldnt possibly be humble and true of heart, if they were preaching for, and supporting fake religions and fake idols.

Thats why your argument fails. Also, the magicians under the Pharaoh could replicate any trick and miracle that Moses did, so that too, sadly, destroys your argument.

The question is how do you get back to that pure source? I want to point out there are documented claims of healing supported by doctors and hospitals.

Did you know that?

Really? So we have documented claims of people regrowing limbs? Because, sorry to tell you, Hospitals and Doctors heal their patients all the time.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/9/2011 11:58:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 10:47:03 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/9/2011 7:47:55 PM, Gileandos wrote:
Remember, the muslim religion came out of the Judeo Christian system and Bible, then muhammad was rejected as a prophet, he turned on them, made up some additional stuff, then over two hundred years more stuff was added.
Muhammad was never rejected as a Prophet, nor did the Quran have anything added to it over two hundred years. Unlike the bible, we have a couple copies of the Quran around the time it was written, so we know.

Your knowledge of Islam is terrible.

This seems to be chaotic. I will cite a source for you to review at your leisure to develop a different understanding of the start of Islam.
I did not realize you were muslim or a muslim theologian. I will directly link historical sites for your view.


The convincing part is how clear this prophecy is in light of what we know about television that was not known when the book was written, the numbers of armies, the information about the nations and even the references to nukes.

Put on top of that, the invention of the television which was clearly unknown at the time makes the prophesied event quite possible, it is rather exciting, but notice it does not convince the majority when they are resurrected.

What prophecy talks about Television and the number of armies and the information about natns and nukes? Please, clarify.

The book of Revelation and the wars, bowls, trumpets, judgements, armies etc...
Specifically the two prophets are...
Revelation 11:
Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

11 But after the three and a half days the breath[b] of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Every nation, tongue and tribe watching for three days was not possible until the advent of Television.

Ever hear the term of "dilution is the solution"?
Yes. And how does it relate to what we are talking about?

The red flag is a deductive fallacy, when you enter the premise when you move further from an accurate source and continue to pour into that source more and more innaccuracies what do you inevitably get?

People who will not be as close to the truth when discerning the things of God, it will require truly humble individuals that God can use to manifest His power.

The further you get from the pure source of information/perspective, compounded by lies and distortions entering in at every opportunity, it is quite natural and reasonable to believe that miracles will decrease based on fewer people having that pure source of information.

No, the argument still fails, and heres why.

2000 years ago,was the age of many people claiming to be prophets and doing miracles and other stuff. Its why Jesus, reportedly, HAD to resurrect himself otherwise all his other miracles were no different than those that other prophets did.

Yet, clearly these false prophets couldnt be true. They couldnt possibly be humble and true of heart, if they were preaching for, and supporting fake religions and fake idols.

Thats why your argument fails. Also, the magicians under the Pharaoh could replicate any trick and miracle that Moses did, so that too, sadly, destroys your argument.


Hmm you seemed to have reversed it.
The trend has always been:
1)Big Insertion of God's involvement
2)Truth watered down and lost
3)Repeat step 1....

Basically God reveals himself to Adam.... breakdown sin, children born, time passes sin erupts, people fall away from God....

God sends King Enoch....more time, more people fall away.

then Noah, world is unsavable,
Major Flood,

God starts over... more people are born, God's revelation starts out strong, then gets corrupted over time, more people fall away, new religions created,

God intervenes and creates Israel, more people born, time passes, Israel falls away... ect..

God send Jesus, same scenario, more people time passes, people fall away, more religions created,

Future
Two prophets come, reinsert truth and Armeggedon.....
Jesus rules on earth for 1,000 years.... more people born time passes.....

Satan is released then massive fallling away of the earth....
Final Battle!

Earth is Toast.

The trend has always been:
1)Big Insertion of God's involvement
2)Truth watered down and lost
3)Repeat step 1....
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2011 5:06:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 5:54:51 PM, PervRat wrote:
At 4/9/2011 12:19:39 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
God = Actuality

No book is evidence for god. The world around you is. As it is written in the pages of the Cosmicomicon, which is also reality. God and God's word are one and the same.

Completely illogical reasoning. That there is a word around you is no more proof of the existence of a deity-creator than easter eggs (chicken eggs decorated fancily by people) prove the easter bunny is real or a drawing in crayon by a 2-year old is proof it was created by Picasso.

Debate and reasoning require hard, solid facts and proof, not existential flowery wors.

I never said anything about a deity-creator. I said that God = Actuality.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2011 6:41:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 11:58:19 PM, Gileandos wrote:
This seems to be chaotic. I will cite a source for you to review at your leisure to develop a different understanding of the start of Islam.
I did not realize you were muslim or a muslim theologian. I will directly link historical sites for your view.
Do. First of all, the Qur'an =/= the hadith. The hadith were written later on, but not all of them are authentic, and we can confirm which ones are authentic and which ones are not in many ways. Moreover, the New Testament came far after the books of the OT were written. The Qur'an came a few centuries after the NT, but notice the great difference between the two. And, the Qur'an confirms the message of the NT more than Christians do.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2011 6:49:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/9/2011 9:53:06 PM, Gileandos wrote:
Again statistically innaccurate. We believe that all the religions were backed by a power of some sort. Christianity won due to a stronger power source. This is a power you can personally experience.
When did Christianity win, and what did it "win" in? Being based on a book that is completely erroneous and has quite a lot of forgeries? Having its followers being in dispute over what kind of a Bible should be followed? Is that what you call victory? I hope not. Victory of all Faiths belongs to the one that has none of its followers being in dispute over its Holy Book. It belongs to the one that has errors by the zeros. It belongs to the one that has zero forgeries. That is where victory belongs.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2011 6:56:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/10/2011 6:49:10 AM, Mirza wrote:
When did Christianity win, and what did it "win" in?

I JUST LOST THE GAME!!!
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2011 7:08:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'll just go ahead and say that if there is a belief that unites humanity in peace, and can hold that peace for more than a few generations...

I'll concede and say that the belief "won"(whatever that means), regardless of it's factual accuracy. That would be one impressive feat of magic.

Until then, the only belief that wins is...

All affirmations are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp