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Anarchy Evolution by Greg Graffin

Ryanconqueso
Posts: 16
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4/13/2011 8:13:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm currently reading this and am further enlightened as to the process of evolution and it's discovery. Has anyone else read this?

Fun side fact Greg Graffin is also the lead singer for Bad Religion. He makes anecdotes pertaining to his time with the establishment and height of the band.

All in all so far it's a pretty good read I just wanted to know what your thoughts are on it....or even against it.

http://www.amazon.com...
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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4/13/2011 8:15:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 8:13:44 AM, Ryanconqueso wrote:
I'm currently reading this and am further enlightened as to the process of evolution and it's discovery. Has anyone else read this?

Fun side fact Greg Graffin is also the lead singer for Bad Religion. He makes anecdotes pertaining to his time with the establishment and height of the band.

All in all so far it's a pretty good read I just wanted to know what your thoughts are on it....or even against it.

http://www.amazon.com...

Well I love Bad Religion and evolution is one of my favorite subjects to read about so I'll definitely give the book a try.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
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: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
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vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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4/13/2011 4:51:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 8:13:44 AM, Ryanconqueso wrote:
I'm currently reading this and am further enlightened as to the process of evolution and it's discovery. Has anyone else read this?

Fun side fact Greg Graffin is also the lead singer for Bad Religion. He makes anecdotes pertaining to his time with the establishment and height of the band.

All in all so far it's a pretty good read I just wanted to know what your thoughts are on it....or even against it.

http://www.amazon.com...

I wish I had some time to read it but my baby just learned to walk so that's pretty much it for me. Anyway, BR has been my favorite band since the No Control days. Hopefully I'll get some time. I read some of in in a book store the other day and it was pretty absorbing.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

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truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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4/13/2011 5:00:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
To Ryan this is an exerpt from my debate on evidence for evolution I have quite a bit of trouble with evolution and believe it to be highly over rated. first of all I have yet to see a shred of solid evidence that evolution occurred the evidence" that I've seen has not been evidence that it did happen but rather that it could have happened. even there in my research I have found that is full of problems for example the problem of first cause. Another problem is that the evidence that organisms changed from the bacteria in hospitals that grow resistant to anti biotic the problem is it doesn't prove change but only the concept of survival of the fittest. next even if it were proven that changes did occur that only proves micro evolution which is most probably true and accepted however the major problem is how evolution can evolve from one species to another. granted improvement in a species is perfectly logical but to leap from there to say one species evolved into another is difficult. (to quote an analogy I herd from David gottlieb (former professor of philosophy at John Hopkins university)(he go the analogy from Steven J Gould) to say that just bec. we see ants can work together to build ant hills should we conclude from there that billions of them got together and built the pyramids). another problem is presented by palaeontologist Larry martin in critique of the claim that birds evolved from dinosaurs based on 85 similarities found between the bone structure. He says I grew disenchanted with the dinosaur bird connection when I realized that virtually none of the comparisons held up. another problem is the problem of punctuated equilibrium that you find no change for millions of years the sudden change (in fact Darwin himself admired to this problem but claimed that it was due to lack of fossil records in his time. since than we have dug quite a bit and the problem has still not been found, (any way there is a problem even to make this claim in his time bec. it is circular logic.)) .another problem is that much of the evidence has been false for example the kettle well experiment with moths of different colors during the industrial revolution. On this Richard dawkins made several gross errors. first of all it doesn't show change in carictaristic but rather an increase in population of a previously existing type. This does not support evolution, rather only survival of the fittest an obvious and logical idea. the next problem with this experiment is in a book called evolution in action written by mickle madjerus published by oxford press reviewed in the magazine nature. this book states these birds do not rest on tree trunks in fact 2 have been seen on tree trunks in the past 40 years. I will continue latter.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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4/13/2011 5:20:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Please give one sample of evidence for evolution. The best one. please don't bother discussing micro evolution. survival of the fittest is obvious logical and agreed upon. that a species can evolve into another is the main problem. additionally I would like to know if the book gives any decent ans. to the problem of first cause. lastly I wonder how it deals with the problem of punctuated equilibrium.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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4/13/2011 5:38:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 5:20:34 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
Please give one sample of evidence for evolution. The best one. please don't bother discussing micro evolution. survival of the fittest is obvious logical and agreed upon. that a species can evolve into another is the main problem. additionally I would like to know if the book gives any decent ans. to the problem of first cause. lastly I wonder how it deals with the problem of punctuated equilibrium.

I so want to debate you on evolution. And abiogenesis has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. Regardless of how life 'began', there is still ample evidence that all forms of life have ad continue to evolve(macro).
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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4/13/2011 5:49:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 5:20:34 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
Please give one sample of evidence for evolution. The best one.:

Pick any argument out of the lot you'd like to discuss.

http://www.talkorigins.org...

to the problem of first cause.:

Evolution does not deal with the First Cause.

lastly I wonder how it deals with the problem of punctuated equilibrium.:

What problem with PE are you referring to?
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truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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4/13/2011 5:55:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I would appreciate a debate on evolution but I am still an amateur and have not solidified my opinion on these matters. I am still seeking evidence. but I would be glad to discus it. regarding your statement I am working on it now.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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4/13/2011 5:58:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 5:38:44 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 4/13/2011 5:20:34 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
Please give one sample of evidence for evolution. The best one. please don't bother discussing micro evolution. survival of the fittest is obvious logical and agreed upon. that a species can evolve into another is the main problem. additionally I would like to know if the book gives any decent ans. to the problem of first cause. lastly I wonder how it deals with the problem of punctuated equilibrium.

I so want to debate you on evolution. And abiogenesis has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. Regardless of how life 'began', there is still ample evidence that all forms of life have ad continue to evolve(macro).

Please elaborate on your first claim. Also I would like to hear the evidence for evolution.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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4/13/2011 6:08:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
No one cares if you believe in evolution or not.

But if you are not going to believe in evolution because of what you see to be a lack of evidence, it would probably be a good idea to examine other things you believe, and see if there really is evidence for those beliefs.

Nothing is more annoying than someone who has a double standard for evidence.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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4/13/2011 8:24:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 6:08:33 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
No one cares if you believe in evolution or not.

But if you are not going to believe in evolution because of what you see to be a lack of evidence, it would probably be a good idea to examine other things you believe, and see if there really is evidence for those beliefs.

Nothing is more annoying than someone who has a double standard for evidence.

sorry for annoying you but why don't you just ask for evidence instead of assuming that I don't have any I don't have time to deal with you so please see my arguments in detail in the topic proof of religion were I remain unanswered. if you have any trouble I'll be glad to help. If you have a response I'll be glad to here it but please think carefully before you write.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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4/13/2011 8:35:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 5:58:16 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
At 4/13/2011 5:38:44 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 4/13/2011 5:20:34 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
Please give one sample of evidence for evolution. The best one. please don't bother discussing micro evolution. survival of the fittest is obvious logical and agreed upon. that a species can evolve into another is the main problem. additionally I would like to know if the book gives any decent ans. to the problem of first cause. lastly I wonder how it deals with the problem of punctuated equilibrium.

I so want to debate you on evolution. And abiogenesis has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. Regardless of how life 'began', there is still ample evidence that all forms of life have ad continue to evolve(macro).

Please elaborate on your first claim. Also I would like to hear the evidence for evolution.

I would be glad to present evidence in detail but in a debate format.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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4/13/2011 8:41:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
To social pink: how is that done?
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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4/13/2011 8:45:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 8:41:27 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
To social pink: how is that done?

Click on my profile and over on the left side it says 'challenge to a debate'. Click on this and then from then on it's pretty self explanatory. I would do it myself but I'm kind of busy.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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4/13/2011 10:44:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 8:45:42 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 4/13/2011 8:41:27 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
To social pink: how is that done?

Click on my profile and over on the left side it says 'challenge to a debate'. Click on this and then from then on it's pretty self explanatory. I would do it myself but I'm kind of busy.

I have done so. ready when you are.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
Ryanconqueso
Posts: 16
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4/14/2011 6:12:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 5:38:44 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 4/13/2011 5:20:34 PM, truthseeker613 wrote:
Please give one sample of evidence for evolution. The best one. please don't bother discussing micro evolution. survival of the fittest is obvious logical and agreed upon. that a species can evolve into another is the main problem. additionally I would like to know if the book gives any decent ans. to the problem of first cause. lastly I wonder how it deals with the problem of punctuated equilibrium.

I so want to debate you on evolution. And abiogenesis has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. Regardless of how life 'began', there is still ample evidence that all forms of life have ad continue to evolve(macro).

Really the understanding of evolution isn't hard at all to understand. You have to recognize that the changes being made are not over night they take hundreds of thousands of years if not millions. And this book Anarchy Evolution goes against the grain of survival of the fittest and more or less a random chance. There are examples within the book pertaining to finding fossils of different species which have since been extinct because they could not function efficiently, ward off predators, and adapt to a new and ever changing climate. There are tons of reasons species go extinct and the more fit for those conditions thrive. And you also have to realize these changes are immensely minute within each new generation depending on location and surroundings. The bottom line is the earth is millions upon millions of years old and new species are constantly being introduced and others eliminated. Which is why we are currently still finding new species. It's when the population starts to get large enough that we actually notice and then we have to determine when they came into existence and how they originated.

This is not an argument for evolution entirely, but just some fun thoughts I have every now and again. As humans, we all have similar characteristics within our ethnicity. But you have to challenge yourself to think that what makes us so different that we could all be humans but in groups be entirely different? You can't deny some immediate qualities humans have are entirely adaptive(accent, addiction, intelligence) so why can't the obvious differences between ethnicities be presented similarly. Obviously if 2 Caucasians were to go to Mars(given we would be able to populate such a planet) and have a child the child will still be prominently resembling of the parents but if we were to stretch out their existence within that area(environmental stability assumed) for tens/hundreds of thousands of years I'd say you might be able to start to see some minute changes in similarity from the originating populous. Again I could be wrong in that train of thought however we would never know because as humans we are constantly migrating etc. and none of us will be alive for that length of time or can even ensure that research would be conducted thoroughly. We have the opportunity to draw logical conclusions with the evidence we have just because life isn't as purposeful as it seems doesn't mean we can't still make it a good life if we were all of a sudden to find out that there definitely was no god we wouldn't change our moral code entirely. For example, there are Atheists that do not steal, kill, cheat, it's just the fundamentals of our moral code and personal pride just as there are plenty of "Christians" in jail for murder or other acts in which their "God" would condemn. I could really go on and on about this. I've been writing this quite erratically so forgive my jumping of topics.

I was confirmed at 14, admittedly the lackluster of religion had settled in and I did it primarily for family reasons. But I understand and still look into other religions and theories of evolution and creation. There is evidence out there it's harder to dissect when you have propaganda saying that these discoveries are invalid. I should know when I was introduced to Evolution in school our church had already heard about it and handed out their pamphlets against the teachings as a form of a "PSA". And that is the line that is crossed all too often when it comes to comparing IT or Creationism to Evolution. And really, whoever pushes their beliefs harder will secure the comfort of most skeptics, is it right? not in the least but it happens in many ways everyday(i.e. politics). Really look into some of the discoveries they aren't hard to find at all. Evolutionists aren't presenting their evidence and arguing "we found this so there is no god" they are charting our ancestry for the good and understanding of life as we know it, there are plenty of theories backing this as there are also scientific laws. I feel that religion gets way too much credit for common sense, there's no need to lay out rules for people to coexist and make good decisions that would be figured out by trial and error in the beginning in the first place, which is then turned into experience/education and taught to offspring. I could also argue any evidence brought forth by any religion for their existence is more or less metaphorical and coincidental for natural occurring events thus negating any proof being presented in the first place. Again, the main point is, free your mind and make your own conclusions everyone has the right to do that.

I would recommend this book for everyone as well it is written in a letter exchange format, in an unbiased presentation for both topics of creationism and evolution Is Belief in God Good, Bad or Irrelevant?: A Professor and a Punk Rocker Discuss Science, Religion, Naturalism & Christianity.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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4/14/2011 9:05:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ryanconqueso; have you heard of this book? http://www.amazon.com...

Click onto the link and you can actually read the pages. Read a page or two, or more if you are willing and get back to me and tell me what you thought of the book.
GodSands
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4/14/2011 9:13:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/13/2011 6:08:33 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
No one cares if you believe in evolution or not.

But if you are not going to believe in evolution because of what you see to be a lack of evidence, it would probably be a good idea to examine other things you believe, and see if there really is evidence for those beliefs.

Nothing is more annoying than someone who has a double standard for evidence.

Speak for yourself, I care a lot if anyone believes in evoluton.
Ryanconqueso
Posts: 16
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4/14/2011 5:07:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/14/2011 9:05:06 AM, GodSands wrote:
Ryanconqueso; have you heard of this book? http://www.amazon.com...

Click onto the link and you can actually read the pages. Read a page or two, or more if you are willing and get back to me and tell me what you thought of the book.

I've read a few pages and I won't deny that I want to read more of this book. However, the serious flaw that follows tricks the reader into thinking that this creation is so complex only a higher power could have done it. Really, I believe it is quite the opposite it is so simple. I don't know what the book says about the dinosaurs, or the rest of the universe. I do know that it does say the earth is only a several thousand years old, which does not support the evidence of the existence of creatures that existed millions of years ago.

Here is a quote from myself in another forum topic directly regarding religion:

I'll do you one better i'll prove that all religion is generally, and some with some specifics, the same.

Horus, Egyptian God 3000 B.C. Was born on December 25th, had a Virgin Mother Icese Mary, 3 kings followed a star to find their new savior, was a teacher at the age of 12, baptized at 30 and began ministry(2970 b.c.), had 12 disciples whom he traveled with and performed miracles(healing, and walking on water), AKA: the truth, the light, gods anointed son, lamb of god. He was betrayed, crucified, buried for 3 days, then resurrected

Attis, Greece 1200 B.C. Born of a vigin on December 25th, crucified, dead for 3 days, and resurrected

Mithra, Persia 1200 B.C. Born of a virgin on December 25th. 12 disciples and performed miracles. Died, buried for 3 days, and was resurrected. AKA: The truth, the light. Personal day of worship was sunday.

Krishna, India 900 B.C. Born of a virgin under a star in the east. Performed miracles with disciples. And upon death was resurrected

Dionysus, Greece(again) 500 B.C. Born of a Virgin on Dec 25th. Teacher who performed miracles(turned water into wine). AKA: The king of kings, gods only begotten son, the alpha and omega. Upon death he was also resurrected

Jesus Christ, Born of Virgin Mary on December 25th accompanied by a star in the east which led 3 kings to follow and find their savior. Child teacher at 12 and baptized at 30 and began his ministry. He had 12 disciples which he traveled with and performed miracles(healing the sick, water to wine, walking on water, raising the dead). AKA: King of Kings, son of god, light of the world, alpha and omega, lamb of god. After being betrayed he was crucified, buried for 3 days, and resurrected

Compiled with all of these similarities almost every religion has some view of the afterlife with a set of rules, all of which are very similar and outline how to eradicate evil, so that they may prosper and be with one another in their own world(afterlife or present).

Given all of this we can't deny that most of these religions didn't draw their beliefs originally. With that being said, it says something about the validity of each religion therein. So I can logically conclude that religion is a composition of plagiarized story telling.

Don't get me wrong you can find some good lessons and content within each religion, you can also find good stuff in a Ray Bradbury novel.


I'd suggest reading either of the books I had mentioned in this thread(the first one is directly biased toward evolution, as your presented is biased towards creationism, the second gives equal voice) and tell me your thoughts of the ideas presented.