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quoran distortions and lies flat earth facts

banker
Posts: 1,370
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4/17/2011 7:09:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The Qur'an 20:53, talks of God who has, "...made the earth for you like a carpet spread out..." (see also 71:19). This could hardly be a clearer way of describing the earth as flat. The Qur'an repeatedly refers to how the earth is "wide" or "spread out" (Qur'an 13:3; 15:19; 18:7; 19:6; 21:30; 35:40; 41:10; 43:10; 50:7; 51:48; 55:10; 78:6; 79:30; 88:20), which is not the language used to describe a round sphere. Heavy mountains hold the earth in place. Just as one might use some bricks to hold the corners of a sheet on the ground in place on a windy day, so we are told of the role that mountains play in keeping the earth stable. The Qur'an 21:31, "And we have set on earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake..." So far we are the told that the earth is spread out like a carpet with heavy mountains to hold it in place. But further evidence opens up that the Qur'an is indeed talking about a flat earth. Qur'an 18:47 says, "On that day we shall remove the mountains, and thou wilt see the earth as a level stretch..." (see also 20:104-107). In other words 18:47 & 20:107 are saying that once the mountains are removed, we will see to the end of the world, which is flat. The sky could fall on our heads! This god also reassures us in the Qur'an 22:65, that "He witholds the sky from falling on the earth except by his leave: for Allah is most kind and most merciful to man." The Qur'an is saying that the sky is a hard opaque object that could fall and injure/kill us. This is certainly how it appeared to ancient people, but not what we know from scientific evidence. Perhaps this god knew that the earth's atmosphere was just thin air and a mixture of gasses. But this would make him into a deceiving god, making an empty threat and telling blatant lies! The Qur'an 19:90 also says that in regard to blasphemies against Islam, the skies are about to burst. The Qur'an 34:9 this god says of the pagans, "If we wished, we could cause the earth to swallow them up, or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them" (see also 52:44). The concept of a hard sky is also seen in the way it is described as a canopy (Qur'an 2:22; 21:32; 40:64; 79:28), that will one day be ripped apart (Qur'an 55:37; 69:16; 73:18; 78:19; 82:1). The Qur'an 70:8 tells us that one day the sky will be like molten brass. And one day the sky will be rolled up (21:104; 39:67). Then the Qur'an unlocks to us a mystery about how the heavens and earth were made. In a rhetorical challenge to the pagans who rejected Islam, this god says, "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder?" So far we are told that the earth is flat, the sky is hard and these two hard, opaque objects were once joined together, but this god pulled them apart, which explains the distance between the earth and sky. This is similar to the creation myths of the Australian Aborigines and New Zealand Maoris. The sun moves around the earth. The Qur'an talks of the earth in terms as if it were stationary, with the sun and stars moving around the earth (Qur'an 2:258; 21:33; 36:40; 52:49; 53:1). "It is he who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon: all (celestial bodies) swim along, each in it's rounded course" (21:33). We know today that the sun is far bigger than the earth, and is drawing the round earth in it's orbit. Where does the sun set? Even more conclusive evidence arrives that the Qur'an teaches a flat earth, because the sun is very small (a lot smaller than the earth), and it rises and sets on our flat earth! The Qur'an 18:83-98 tells the story of a pious Muslim, Zulqarnain (whom many Muslim commentators think is Alexander the Great). One day while traveling along, we find that, "Until, when, he reached the setting of the sun, he found it to set in a spring of murky water" (18:86). So Zulqarnain found the sun sets in a spring of murky water. This is saying that the earth is flat and the sun is very small.  This is an error of astronomical proportions. Shall I belabor the obvious? The sun is far bigger than the earth and if it were any closer we would all burn up. Many Muslims interpret this to mean that he merely looked at the sun from the angle of it setting past a pond of murky water, but this is not what the text says. Why Zulqarnain did not go blind or suffer serious eye damage is not explained, because he still enough eyesight to travel to the other end of the world. He traveled, "Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering protection against the sun" (18:90). In other words he found the sun rising on a scorched people, because they were nearer to the sun than anyone else! This is a clear denial of the round earth, where for every morning for everyone on the whole earth, the sun's rays are closer at midday than the morning! In the Hadith, Muhammad asked some people, ""Do you know where this sun goes?" I said, "Allah and his Apostle know best." He said, It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and one day it, as if being ordered to return  whence it came, then it will rise from the west."" (Bukhari 9:520). He is erroneously describing the 'rising' and 'setting' of the sun as supernatural phenomena. Not only that, he tells us that the sun actually asks this god for permission to rise and set! Furthermore, in this context, Muhammad was not reciting poetry, but was giving the Muslims clear instruction on how the sun rises and sets. This concept is further supported by the Qur'an telling us, "And the sun runs into a resting place..." (Qur'an 36:38). We know today from science and astronomy that it is the earth that spins, not the sun. Pray facing Mecca. The flat-earth concept is seen in the fact that Muslims have to pray five times a day facing Mecca. To pray with you back to Mecca, would be sacrilegious. They are not allowed to even go to the toilet facing Mecca, either (Bukhari 1:146-151). From a flat-earth viewpoint, this makes sense. But we know today, being on a spherical globe, that if you pray facing Mecca, you have your back to Mecca at the same time (and vice-versa). Mountainous myths. As if we have not come across enough absurdities already, the Qur'an and Hadith teach some monumental errors of science that any Muslim would be hard-pressed to defend. These scientific errors make a mountain out of a molehill. In the Hadith, Muhammad referred to the growth of a baby horse: "...as anyone of you brings up a baby horse, till it becomes like a mountain" (Bukhari 9:525B). Muhammad is talking plain nonsense and may have been hallucinating. We are also told that when Muhammad saw the mountain of Uhud, he said, "This is the mountain that loves and is loved by us" (Bukhari 9:433). Muhammad taught that mountains have feelings, emotions and personality. We know today that they are dead, senseless rock and mineral formations pushed up through continental drift and shaped often by volcanoes. The Qur'an tells us that once the hills praised his god (Qur'an 38:18), and that the mountains were afraid (33:72). It talks of the mountains as if they were hollow and will one day collapse in Qur'an 19:90; 56:5; Bukhari 9:75. The Qur'an also has some very shady myths about clouds. The Qur'an 30:24, says that this god breaks the clouds into fragments so that rain can fall. We know from science and meteorology that clouds are actually water droplets formed through evaporation and not hard objects. In 41:11, the clouds also talked to this god and said, "We do come together, in willing obedience." Astronomical errors. From astronomical studies, we know more about the universe than ever before. There are billions of stars in countless galaxies, of which more are being discovered all the time. The closest start is 4.5 light years away and the furtherest stars and galaxies are countless billions of light years away. Some these stars are very small (such as the
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/17/2011 4:29:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/17/2011 7:09:52 AM, banker wrote:
The Qur'an 20:53, talks of God who has, "...made the earth for you like a carpet spread out..."
"... so that you may walk therein..."

The Qur'an never says that the Heavens and the Earth were made like carpet spread out. In that case it would seem like the Qur'an says that all of the world is flat. But the Qur'an specifically refers to the earth we walk on, and that is called the crust. In fact this is a scientifically valid claim since the crust functions perfectly like a carpet for us to walk and reside on. Imagine if your floor is very edgy, and you cannot walk on it or put anything because it is very groovy. What can you do? Buy a carpet. Having a carpet would mean that you can walk and do other activities without having hardship. The earth has many layers, and they are thick compared to the crust.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/17/2011 4:34:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The part of the sun setting in the murky spring, notice the Arabic word "wajadah" which means something in the sense of "it appeared to." So the Qur'an says that the sun appeared to be setting in murky water in the eyes of the person mentioned. The Qur'an is so precise as not to simply say it in normal language (i.e., the sun set) but that it appeared to the person that the sun set, meaning that from his perspective, the sun set, which is perfectly true. The sun does set when we look at it, because that is how it appears to us. But in reality, it does not set. If a professor says to you that the sun sets at 6PM, will you say he is a madman? No. It is a commonly expressed sentence. But the Qur'an still clarifies that it is meant from the perspective of people, not reality.
spiritislife
Posts: 94
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4/17/2011 10:43:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/17/2011 4:34:23 PM, Mirza wrote:
The part of the sun setting in the murky spring, notice the Arabic word "wajadah" which means something in the sense of "it appeared to." So the Qur'an says that the sun appeared to be setting in murky water in the eyes of the person mentioned. The Qur'an is so precise as not to simply say it in normal language (i.e., the sun set) but that it appeared to the person that the sun set, :

The word 'wajadah' means "found". Muslims love to assign a new english meaning to this word. Ten translations of the Quran in english, including Pickal, Yusuf (the most authoritative) translate the word wajadah as 'found', not 'it appeared to'.

Plus, the word "wajada' is used twice in the text and could not be translated as 'it appeared to" when referring to its second use.

"Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found (wajada) it setting in a muddy spring, and found (wajada) a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness."

Using the word 'appeared' would be absurd as it would make the 'people' whom he saw to be phantoms or apparitions. How could 'imaginary' people be rewarded or punished?

Surah 18:92-93 (the same Surah) uses the same word: wahada.

18.92 "Then followed he (another) way," 18.93 "Until, when he reached (a tract) between two mountains, he found, (wajada) beneath them, a people who scarcely understood a word."

Again, the words 'it appeared' is wrong as it would make these people imaginary when they clearly are not. The term wajada translates into 'found".

Here are other verses in the Quran where the word "Wahada" is used.

3:37 And her Lord accepted her with full acceptance and vouchsafed to her a goodly growth; and made Zachariah her guardian. Whenever Zachariah went into the sanctuary where she was, he found (wajada) that she had food.

28:23 And when he came unto the water of Midian he found (wajada) there a whole tribe of men, watering.

Other apparitions? Were these men imaginary too?

Conclusion: It is simply a Muslim lie to say 'wajada' translates into english as 'it appeared as". The most authoritative translations do not give it this meaning (and nine others!).

There are at least 7 surahs that can be brought forth as evidence to prove that the Quran speaks of a flat earth. Muslim apologists trying to prove the Quran speaks of a spherical earth make a number of assumptions to fit their model.
banker
Posts: 1,370
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4/17/2011 11:21:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Quite bizare to interperate the quaran that way.

First this helps us understand how those people exceted islam..! You could see what market the quoran catered to..! Those who had to be informed that earth has a crust you could walk on? Absurdity is painfull and is not very apealing for a debate so we are eager to discover some logic there.!
At 4/17/2011 4:29:10 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/17/2011 7:09:52 AM, banker wrote:
The Qur'an 20:53, talks of God who has, "...made the earth for you like a carpet spread out..."
"... so that you may walk therein..."

The Qur'an never says that the Heavens and the Earth were made like carpet spread out. In that case it would seem like the Qur'an says that all of the world is flat. But the Qur'an specifically refers to the earth we walk on, and that is called the crust. In fact this is a scientifically valid claim since the crust functions perfectly like a carpet for us to walk and reside on. Imagine if your floor is very edgy, and you cannot walk on it or put anything because it is very groovy. What can you do? Buy a carpet. Having a carpet would mean that you can walk and do other activities without having hardship. The earth has many layers, and they are thick compared to the crust.
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/18/2011 11:32:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/17/2011 10:43:23 PM, spiritislife wrote:
The word 'wajadah' means "found". Muslims love to assign a new english meaning to this word. Ten translations of the Quran in english, including Pickal, Yusuf (the most authoritative) translate the word wajadah as 'found', not 'it appeared to'.
That is because you cannot se "he it appeared..." This sentence would not make sense. Thus, the translators use the synonym of "appeared to" in order to match the perspective of Zulqarnain, hence they used the term "found" so the sentence is grammatically correct in English. "He found" instead of "he appeared to."

http://www.synonym.com...

Plus, the word "wajada' is used twice in the text and could not be translated as 'it appeared to" when referring to its second use.
Yes it can. Please do not pretend to be an Arabic scholar.

"Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found (wajada) it setting in a muddy spring, and found (wajada) a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness."

Using the word 'appeared' would be absurd as it would make the 'people' whom he saw to be phantoms or apparitions. How could 'imaginary' people be rewarded or punished?
Who said that when something appears to you, it is nonexistent? What the Qur'an says is that Zulqarnain found the sun to set. In other words, it appeared to him. In fact, the sun did set, but the Qur'an says that from his perspective, the sun set.

Surah 18:92-93 (the same Surah) uses the same word: wahada.

18.92 "Then followed he (another) way," 18.93 "Until, when he reached (a tract) between two mountains, he found, (wajada) beneath them, a people who scarcely understood a word."

Again, the words 'it appeared' is wrong as it would make these people imaginary when they clearly are not. The term wajada translates into 'found".
And how does that negate the fact that he [found]? If I say, "Joe found the game to be dull," does it mean that I say that the game is dull? Not at all. Find a single verse where the Qur'an makes a general statement about the sun setting. It says that [he] found the sun to be setting, and [he] was Zulqarnain.

Here are other verses in the Quran where the word "Wahada" is used.

3:37 And her Lord accepted her with full acceptance and vouchsafed to her a goodly growth; and made Zachariah her guardian. Whenever Zachariah went into the sanctuary where she was, he found (wajada) that she had food.
He.

28:23 And when he came unto the water of Midian he found (wajada) there a whole tribe of men, watering.
He.

Other apparitions? Were these men imaginary too?
No, and I never said that the setting of the sun was imaginary. I am saying that the Qur'an does not say that in reality, the sun sets, but it appears to us that it sets. We see it setting, but it is the Earth that revolves around the sun.

Conclusion: It is simply a Muslim lie to say 'wajada' translates into english as 'it appeared as". The most authoritative translations do not give it this meaning (and nine others!).
Find an Arabic dictionary. Find the synonym of "find."

There are at least 7 surahs that can be brought forth as evidence to prove that the Quran speaks of a flat earth. Muslim apologists trying to prove the Quran speaks of a spherical earth make a number of assumptions to fit their model.
Bring them. Or debate them with me.

And regarding translations, please don't use them to prove a point. The Qur'an can never ever be translated properly. Also, Yusuf Ali was a renowned scholar, but he also made errors. He commented on this verse saying that Zulqarnain was actually Alexander the Great, but the Qur'an gives no such indication.