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If he did not rise from the dead, why care?

Marauder
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4/21/2011 10:19:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think it's embarrassing that on a site full of as many intelligent people as there are here, during the week of Easter we get no better Easter related discussion threads going on than just the one interrogator started.

So here's one I provide to actually get theist and atheist alike something to sink there teeth just a little deeper than chocolate bunny discussions.

It's said that the resurrection of Christ is a very big deal, (and I believe that, don't crucify me fellow Christians, I'm just trying to start discussion) that if Christ did not rise from the dead then it 'all falls apart'. his sacrifice mean nothing, the authority of his teachings, his promises.

but why? cant his sacrifice for our sins still be valid without him having defeated death and only have lived the perfect sinless life to be the perfect offering? as as far as his authority goes did not previous men who did not defeat death themselves speak as the 'mouthpiece of God' for Gods people in the OT, the prophets.

what are the full consequences of this man who was son of god dieing, and the consequences of this son of man rising from death? what would be different about what we have to believe Christians if this one detail about the self Resurrection of Jesus where different, what would we have to believe if the gosple's merely ended with his dying and none in the weeks have followed would have witnessed him walking around?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
CosmicAlfonzo
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4/22/2011 12:27:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The teachings of Jesus stand without the supernatural. His teachings stand without the need for him to be the literal son of god or to have risen from the dead. His teachings stand without the need for miracles.

The fact that people need these things to see the sense in the things he says is a testament to the fact that only a wicked generation demands a miracle.

Jesus performed no miracles. Jesus did not rise from the dead. He taught a message of acceptance, and tolerance. He taught those around him to develop religion personally, to develop spiritually as an individual.

Jesus taught the polar opposite of what Christians are doing for the most part, and their ignorance is apparent to anyone who understands the teachings of Jesus.

He was a pretty wise dude, but I don't think most Christians even understand the depth of what he was saying. He preached a very pure message of love, and understood that the pretentiousness inherent to seriousness was a plague on this earth. It still is today.

If Christians truly understood what Jesus was saying, there would be no such thing as a "Christian". They are idol worshipers. Their misconceptions and ignorance are curses that are detrimental to the intent of Jesus. The curse will only be lifted when they persist in their search for truth with a holy spirit of intellectual integrity.

Jesus was resurrected, only if you can make the stretch necessary to accept the fact that his ideas have lived on past his death.

If you can believe that John the baptist was Elijah, and believe that Jesus was the messiah, this message should not be hard to accept.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Rusty
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4/22/2011 1:20:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/22/2011 12:27:10 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Jesus is my misunderstood secular buddy, Christians have it wrong, but I, of course, understand the real Jesus.

I see.
tvellalott
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4/22/2011 1:25:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Certainly. A person doesn't have to rise from the dead to be worthy of being listened to.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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leah12
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4/22/2011 12:40:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Jesus died to forgive us our sins and to fulfill the prophecies. He taught love and forgives and he loves us as the Bible says, that is enough for me.
I dont think people should classify one another, the term "Christian" has been misused, and many people who claim to be Christians are really not. But no one is perfect.
Merry Christmas!
popculturepooka
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4/22/2011 1:12:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I hear some Pauline echoes here. ;)

1 Cor 15:14-17 " if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we witnessed against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins."

Can't say I disagree.
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Cliff.Stamp
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4/22/2011 2:01:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/21/2011 10:19:02 PM, Marauder wrote:

I'm just trying to start discussion) that if Christ did not rise from the dead then it 'all falls apart'. his sacrifice mean nothing, the authority of his teachings, his promises.

Because he said he would and it was integral to the message of him being the son of god in a literal sense.
jharry
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4/22/2011 4:19:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Great discussion topic!

He came to spread the Good News!!!!! What good would this trip be if He didn't bring the News to ALL men?

He had to get the keys from Death to. :)

He descended into Hell
And on the third day He rose.
He ascended into Heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
CosmicAlfonzo
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4/22/2011 4:51:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/22/2011 1:12:17 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I hear some Pauline echoes here. ;)

1 Cor 15:14-17 " if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we witnessed against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins."

Can't say I disagree.

Yet if you read later, it is made pretty clear that Paul isn't talking about a physical resurrection.

1 Cor 15: 35-54

"But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

This is describing something that is going on within ourselves. The spiritual level. The inner psychology level.

The resurrection is not the physical raising of a body, that is absurd. The dead do not come back alive after rotting in a tomb for 3 days.

The words of the New testament are written in metaphor and code. It is meant to be ridiculous if taken literally. If you know what it is talking about, it makes sense. If you interpret these texts literally, they are patently ridiculous. This is intentional, as these messages are aimed at those with understanding so that they may gain more understanding. These messages are not aimed at the average individual who isn't aware or puts any kind of depth into understanding these things.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Gileandos
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4/22/2011 5:17:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/22/2011 4:51:20 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 4/22/2011 1:12:17 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I hear some Pauline echoes here. ;)

1 Cor 15:14-17 " if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we witnessed against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins."

Can't say I disagree.

Yet if you read later, it is made pretty clear that Paul isn't talking about a physical resurrection.

1 Cor 15: 35-54

"But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."


This is describing something that is going on within ourselves. The spiritual level. The inner psychology level.

The resurrection is not the physical raising of a body, that is absurd. The dead do not come back alive after rotting in a tomb for 3 days.

The words of the New testament are written in metaphor and code. It is meant to be ridiculous if taken literally. If you know what it is talking about, it makes sense. If you interpret these texts literally, they are patently ridiculous. This is intentional, as these messages are aimed at those with understanding so that they may gain more understanding. These messages are not aimed at the average individual who isn't aware or puts any kind of depth into understanding these things.

Are you aware that the Church has traditionally held this be a physical ressurection.

Even with myself reading this I clearly understand him to speaking of a physical ressurection.

Jesus in the Gospels had a physical ressurection.

Perhaps you are the one "reading" into the text something that is not there?
Perhaps you are erring in your interpretation rather than all of the New Testament Scholars?
CosmicAlfonzo
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4/22/2011 5:21:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/22/2011 5:17:26 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 4/22/2011 4:51:20 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 4/22/2011 1:12:17 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I hear some Pauline echoes here. ;)

1 Cor 15:14-17 " if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we witnessed against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins."

Can't say I disagree.

Yet if you read later, it is made pretty clear that Paul isn't talking about a physical resurrection.

1 Cor 15: 35-54

"But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."


This is describing something that is going on within ourselves. The spiritual level. The inner psychology level.

The resurrection is not the physical raising of a body, that is absurd. The dead do not come back alive after rotting in a tomb for 3 days.

The words of the New testament are written in metaphor and code. It is meant to be ridiculous if taken literally. If you know what it is talking about, it makes sense. If you interpret these texts literally, they are patently ridiculous. This is intentional, as these messages are aimed at those with understanding so that they may gain more understanding. These messages are not aimed at the average individual who isn't aware or puts any kind of depth into understanding these things.


Are you aware that the Church has traditionally held this be a physical ressurection.

Even with myself reading this I clearly understand him to speaking of a physical ressurection.

Jesus in the Gospels had a physical ressurection.

Perhaps you are the one "reading" into the text something that is not there?
Perhaps you are erring in your interpretation rather than all of the New Testament Scholars?

If you like the taste of bullsh!t, I suppose that is your business.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Gileandos
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4/22/2011 6:15:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/22/2011 5:21:52 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 4/22/2011 5:17:26 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 4/22/2011 4:51:20 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 4/22/2011 1:12:17 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I hear some Pauline echoes here. ;)

1 Cor 15:14-17 " if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we witnessed against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins."

Can't say I disagree.

Yet if you read later, it is made pretty clear that Paul isn't talking about a physical resurrection.

1 Cor 15: 35-54

"But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."


This is describing something that is going on within ourselves. The spiritual level. The inner psychology level.

The resurrection is not the physical raising of a body, that is absurd. The dead do not come back alive after rotting in a tomb for 3 days.

The words of the New testament are written in metaphor and code. It is meant to be ridiculous if taken literally. If you know what it is talking about, it makes sense. If you interpret these texts literally, they are patently ridiculous. This is intentional, as these messages are aimed at those with understanding so that they may gain more understanding. These messages are not aimed at the average individual who isn't aware or puts any kind of depth into understanding these things.


Are you aware that the Church has traditionally held this be a physical ressurection.

Even with myself reading this I clearly understand him to speaking of a physical ressurection.

Jesus in the Gospels had a physical ressurection.

Perhaps you are the one "reading" into the text something that is not there?
Perhaps you are erring in your interpretation rather than all of the New Testament Scholars?

If you like the taste of bullsh!t, I suppose that is your business.

Interesting response.
jharry
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4/22/2011 7:05:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/22/2011 4:19:45 PM, jharry wrote:
Great discussion topic!

He came to spread the Good News!!!!! What good would this trip be if He didn't bring the News to ALL men?

He had to get the keys from Death to. :)

He descended into Hell
And on the third day He rose.
He ascended into Heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father.

Now the rest of the post.

On the third day He rose.

It is highly important that Jesus rose from the dead. It demonstrates our future as well. His sole reason was to break the chains Death had on us. Before Jesus we could see God, we would be stuck in Sheol. Once Jesus died (being fully human) He entered into Sheol/Hades. But death had to power over Him because there was no sin within Him. If you skip forward to revelations you will see a question asked. "Who is worthy to open the book?" Only one was found worthy. Jesus.

He is the first fruit. We will be His harvest.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Marauder
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4/23/2011 12:01:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/22/2011 1:20:38 AM, Denote wrote:
At 4/22/2011 12:27:10 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Jesus is my misunderstood secular buddy, Christians have it wrong, but I, of course, understand the real Jesus.

I see.

ha ha ha,

10/10 win
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
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4/23/2011 12:10:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/22/2011 4:51:20 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 4/22/2011 1:12:17 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I hear some Pauline echoes here. ;)

1 Cor 15:14-17 " if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we witnessed against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins."

Can't say I disagree.

Yet if you read later, it is made pretty clear that Paul isn't talking about a physical resurrection.

1 Cor 15: 35-54

"But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."


This is describing something that is going on within ourselves. The spiritual level. The inner psychology level.

The resurrection is not the physical raising of a body, that is absurd. The dead do not come back alive after rotting in a tomb for 3 days.

The words of the New testament are written in metaphor and code. It is meant to be ridiculous if taken literally. If you know what it is talking about, it makes sense. If you interpret these texts literally, they are patently ridiculous. This is intentional, as these messages are aimed at those with understanding so that they may gain more understanding. These messages are not aimed at the average individual who isn't aware or puts any kind of depth into understanding these things.

you show yourself to understand just a vauge inkling of facts about the ressurection of the dead. and you show how understanding only a little bit still lead a person to be super wrong when thats all they learn.

Yes, our resurrected forms that will have gone through glorifying grace will be quite unlike our bodies we have now.

But No, they will still be for all purposes what we think of as physical, physical bodies. they will be super awesome bodies that do not perish, but they will be physical bodies none the less.

and if you want to talk about what the bible teaches about Jesus having a physical body or not after he was resurrected, let me just tell you whether you think it's absurd for his three day old dead body to be alive again, spooks don't eat fish.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
tvellalott
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4/23/2011 12:15:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Why does Jesus get to rise from hell and go to Heaven?
Do other men get that same privilege?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
Marauder
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4/23/2011 12:20:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/22/2011 7:05:50 PM, jharry wrote:
At 4/22/2011 4:19:45 PM, jharry wrote:
Great discussion topic!

He came to spread the Good News!!!!! What good would this trip be if He didn't bring the News to ALL men?

He had to get the keys from Death to. :)

He descended into Hell
And on the third day He rose.
He ascended into Heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father.

Now the rest of the post.

On the third day He rose.

It is highly important that Jesus rose from the dead. It demonstrates our future as well. His sole reason was to break the chains Death had on us. Before Jesus we could see God, we would be stuck in Sheol. Once Jesus died (being fully human) He entered into Sheol/Hades. But death had to power over Him because there was no sin within Him. If you skip forward to revelations you will see a question asked. "Who is worthy to open the book?" Only one was found worthy. Jesus.

He is the first fruit. We will be His harvest.

I've begun to notice there is a such a huge connection between any scriptures that speak on death and the ones that speak on sin, it's almost like there really synonymous. so it makes perfect sense that if you cannot defeat death, than you cant defeat sin and vise/versa. and If you defeat the power of sin holds over you then as a by product you would have to have defeated the hold death has over you.

there where prophets before Christ who raised others who died, even if the prophet themselves was dead like Elisha's bones did, but not even his bones could raise themselves from the dead, so ultimately its god that does the raising and just a extream extension of faithful prayer of the prophets that connect them to the dead raising. But Jesus raised himself with no other praying conduits of god reviving him. surely this show's he has the keys of death where the prophets only could faithfully ask of the one who had the keys and hope that they receive.

and like I said, such confirmation that he defeated death confirmed that he defeated sin, validating the good news that we are saved by his ransom, it could and did indeed atone for our sins.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
CosmicAlfonzo
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4/23/2011 12:24:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 12:01:23 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 4/22/2011 1:20:38 AM, Denote wrote:
At 4/22/2011 12:27:10 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Jesus is my misunderstood secular buddy, Christians have it wrong, but I, of course, understand the real Jesus.

I see.

ha ha ha,

10/10 win

Indeed, my understanding of Jesus is infinitely more "real" than the orthodox Christian understanding. mmyes mmyes.

While the "real" Jesus can never be known as he is both dead and never wrote anything, you can get a general idea based on the things he said. The gospels were written long after the fact, and most of the narrative was written around what Jesus was recorded as saying. The narrative was influenced heavily by legend and hearsay.

I used to be a Christian. A real serious Christian. You know how I got to where I am today? By studying my @ss off. I'm fairly confident in my understanding of Jesus' teachings, as not only does my understanding apply to Christianity, but it also carries over to many other "faiths".

Yes, I do have a better understanding of Jesus than the great majority of Christians do. If Christians actually understood what Jesus said, they'd realize what dipsh!ts they are being.

They are faithless fools who lack any real integrity. They are spiritually bankrupt, and parrot off things that they have no understanding of. They are foul on the inside, and their misery is a direct result of their blasphemy. They are the people that the prophets yelled at on the streets. They are those that tried to stone Jesus, and the pharisees that he held with disdain.

I pity these epistemological cripples, and rejoice every time one of them pulls their head out of their @ss and gets wise.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Marauder
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4/23/2011 12:28:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 12:15:00 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Why does Jesus get to rise from hell and go to Heaven?
Do other men get that same privilege?

that could kinda change answers depending on how accurately your using the term hell.
if you mean what most christians think of when you say hell, the lake of fire, for all purposes that place does not exist yet, so jesus never went there and its a moot point.

but part of my post to Jharry would answer your question, Jesus defeated sin and thus because of that death. that is why he gets that privalidge.

if you wish to have that privileged too, though you cannot defeat sin yourself, you can accapt that chirst did for you, and by extension of his defeating sin and death, you will be free from sin and be resurrected from death too.

so to answer you question in a simple yes or no,

yes.

others can have the same privileged.

you can thank Jesus for that.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
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4/23/2011 12:32:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 12:28:44 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 4/23/2011 12:15:00 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Why does Jesus get to rise from hell and go to Heaven?
Do other men get that same privilege?

that could kinda change answers depending on how accurately your using the term hell.
if you mean what most christians think of when you say hell, the lake of fire, for all purposes that place does not exist yet, so jesus never went there and its a moot point.

but part of my post to Jharry would answer your question, Jesus defeated sin and thus because of that death. that is why he gets that privalidge.

if you wish to have that privileged too, though you cannot defeat sin yourself, you can accapt that chirst did for you, and by extension of his defeating sin and death, you will be free from sin and be resurrected from death too.

so to answer you question in a simple yes or no,

yes.

others can have the same privileged.

you can thank Jesus for that.

was that post mafia-scummyish? you people have really made me self conscious about if there too long now, I hope your happy.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
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4/23/2011 12:51:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 12:24:16 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 4/23/2011 12:01:23 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 4/22/2011 1:20:38 AM, Denote wrote:
At 4/22/2011 12:27:10 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Jesus is my misunderstood secular buddy, Christians have it wrong, but I, of course, understand the real Jesus.

I see.

ha ha ha,

10/10 win

Indeed, my understanding of Jesus is infinitely more "real" than the orthodox Christian understanding. mmyes mmyes.


While the "real" Jesus can never be known as he is both dead and never wrote anything, you can get a general idea based on the things he said. The gospels were written long after the fact, and most of the narrative was written around what Jesus was recorded as saying. The narrative was influenced heavily by legend and hearsay.

So I'm guessing you say the part about him eating fish is just false hearsay and legend?

or any of his resurrected sighting for that matter whether by just Mary, a handful of the disciples or 500 people at one time in public? just tall tales that got added to a true one you 'extracted' out of the bible from all your 'study' that you determined is the real case?

you know if Christians were actually guilty of just believing 'whatever we want' like atheist accuse a lot of doing, we would look a lot more like you.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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4/23/2011 1:34:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 12:51:17 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 4/23/2011 12:24:16 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 4/23/2011 12:01:23 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 4/22/2011 1:20:38 AM, Denote wrote:
At 4/22/2011 12:27:10 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Jesus is my misunderstood secular buddy, Christians have it wrong, but I, of course, understand the real Jesus.

I see.

ha ha ha,

10/10 win

Indeed, my understanding of Jesus is infinitely more "real" than the orthodox Christian understanding. mmyes mmyes.


While the "real" Jesus can never be known as he is both dead and never wrote anything, you can get a general idea based on the things he said. The gospels were written long after the fact, and most of the narrative was written around what Jesus was recorded as saying. The narrative was influenced heavily by legend and hearsay.

So I'm guessing you say the part about him eating fish is just false hearsay and legend?

or any of his resurrected sighting for that matter whether by just Mary, a handful of the disciples or 500 people at one time in public? just tall tales that got added to a true one you 'extracted' out of the bible from all your 'study' that you determined is the real case?

you know if Christians were actually guilty of just believing 'whatever we want' like atheist accuse a lot of doing, we would look a lot more like you.

First of all, I'm not stupid enough to say that I know exactly what happened. Secondly, what actually happened doesn't matter at all.

I am saying that the New Testament in general has several reoccurring themes and my interpretation fits in well with it all. My interpretation makes sense from an inner psychology perspective, it makes sense from a spiritual perspective. The orthodox Christian interpretation is superstitious, literal, and stupid. Christianity makes an idol out of Jesus, it makes an idol out of the bible, and it misses the point entirely.

A lot of things are in the gospels, even events that are supposed to happen at the same time and contradict. You'd have to be brain dead to believe that any of that impossible stuff literally happened.

I do not believe "whatever I want". That is absurd. I believe what is evident. I believe what appears to be true. If I just believed whatever I want, I would not have gone through so many changes in my own beliefs over time.

Christians have a hard time grasping that the spiritual world is not something supernatural and miraculous. The spiritual world is what is going on in your head. The things that are being described in the New Testament and in many other religions that are still around have to do with the processes in the mind. These processes are described metaphorically, as it was probably very difficult to describe it in any other way given the limitations of language at the time. Religious adherents like to turn these things into fantastical otherworldly things that do not mesh with reality.

Even those who described these things very lucidly.. Like the Buddha were not and still are not very easily understood. It is like trying to teach someone to play an instrument without actually using the instrument.

It is because the people who adhere to these beliefs do not actually practice them. If they do practice them, they are not doing it correctly. They are not analyzing their own minds properly. They are hardly even using their minds! They have such a corrupted understanding of faith that they resolve all cognitive dissonances in ways that continue to reinforce what they believed before. This is not faith, this is pride getting in the way of intellectual integrity! This is blasphemy against the holy spirit!

They arrogantly believe that they have already found it, when they should have kept seeking!

Those who fail to see and understand the truth in what I am saying are under a curse, and only they can break it.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cliff.Stamp
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4/23/2011 7:52:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 12:51:17 AM, Marauder wrote:

you know if Christians were actually guilty of just believing 'whatever we want' like atheist accuse a lot of doing, we would look a lot more like you.

Yes, but then you would at least know the real truth and be truly spiritual while performing Chaos Magic.

All you are doing now is just reading a book from time to time and praying, that is not overly exciting.
tvellalott
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4/23/2011 7:59:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Chaos magic rocks the sh!t. I'm performing it on your right now, just by you reading these simple words.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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Gileandos
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4/23/2011 8:10:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I believe Marauder is referencing what is called "cherry picking".
You believe in the mundane examples within the Bible but not the extraordinary.
It is like the Jesus Seminar. They believe certain key mundane statements, ignore other mundane statements and bash any supernatural statement.

It is called "Cherry Picking". To do this a warrant must be provided and that warrant must be stronger than the original eye witness accounts.

For a Christian a presupposition of naturalism by the Jesus Seminar (or mental supernaturalism of a discordian) is not evidence enough to dismiss the eyewitness accounts of a physical ressurection, a physical assention and a physical return.

Please provide your breakdown of a warrant to "cherry pick" statements from eye witness accounts.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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4/23/2011 8:13:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The guy is an omnipotent God who created the entire universe and determines the eternal fate of all mankind. Who cares if he's a zombie on top of everything else?
Cliff.Stamp
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4/23/2011 8:53:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 8:13:33 AM, Kinesis wrote:
The guy is an omnipotent God who created the entire universe and determines the eternal fate of all mankind. Who cares if he's a zombie on top of everything else?

Romero obviously.
Cliff.Stamp
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4/23/2011 8:54:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 7:59:22 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Chaos magic rocks the sh!t. I'm performing it on your right now, just by you reading these simple words.

Magic away dude, the power of the Reptoids will protect me.
Cliff.Stamp
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4/23/2011 10:06:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 8:27:11 AM, Mirza wrote:
In which place do the gospels say that Jesus was resurrected?

Have you seen Craig's debate on this topic vs Ally?