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Evolution and Religion

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/23/2011 10:33:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Recently, Pope Benedict argued that there was no conflict between evolution and creationism.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com...

He accepts evolution (Intelligent Design). However if the Pope accepts evolution, I think it becomes problematic for his religious beliefs. Primarily it completely discredits the Adam and Eve story, which is of paramount importance because it explains where Original Sin (and all the crap that goes with it) came from.

It also makes other aspects of scripture problematic. Haha I know inconsistent and flawed verses in the Bible are nothing new, but check it - Romans 5:12 says "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men..." Clearly evolution posits that death occurred before man (in fact man would have not even come into fruition without prior death), so again Adam and Eve could not be the cause for death and sin if evolution is true. In that case, what IS the cause? Because I know "Original Sin" was the answer to sooo many of my questions when I harassed my Catholic School teachers, but without Adam and Eve, where does Original Sin come from?
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Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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4/23/2011 11:25:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 10:33:03 AM, Danielle wrote:
Recently, Pope Benedict argued that there was no conflict between evolution and creationism.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com...

He accepts evolution (Intelligent Design). However if the Pope accepts evolution, I think it becomes problematic for his religious beliefs. Primarily it completely discredits the Adam and Eve story, which is of paramount importance because it explains where Original Sin (and all the crap that goes with it) came from.

It also makes other aspects of scripture problematic. Haha I know inconsistent and flawed verses in the Bible are nothing new, but check it - Romans 5:12 says "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men..." Clearly evolution posits that death occurred before man (in fact man would have not even come into fruition without prior death), so again Adam and Eve could not be the cause for death and sin if evolution is true. In that case, what IS the cause? Because I know "Original Sin" was the answer to sooo many of my questions when I harassed my Catholic School teachers, but without Adam and Eve, where does Original Sin come from?

Alright, I'm going to take a stab at this. I don't claim to be as smart as some of the other people on this site with issues like these, but bear with me.

Couldn't someone just argue that Romans 5:12 refers to human death? Some translations say "entered the entire human race" and the "world" does have a definition or two that would seem to work here.

http://www.blueletterbible.org...

In that case, the death of humankind's ancestors before a soul emerged (through whatever means) wouldn't contradict that verse, because that verse might only refer to beings who have souls (or souls who have bodies. I'm not sure how that's supposed to be worded.)

I seriously doubt that such a simple answer solves the apparent problem though, so I'll wait to see what you say.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/23/2011 12:01:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 10:43:55 AM, Puck wrote:
http://www.catholic.com...

It says, "The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, 'The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents' (CCC 390)."

This is what I'm trying to get it - whether this is consistent with evolution, which Pope claims to accept.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/23/2011 12:07:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 11:25:52 AM, Denote wrote:
In that case, the death of humankind's ancestors before a soul emerged (through whatever means) wouldn't contradict that verse, because that verse might only refer to beings who have souls (or souls who have bodies. I'm not sure how that's supposed to be worded.)

It's possible, but don't animals have souls? John and Isaiah both mention animals in Heaven.

Very interesting response, but what about Original Sin? Evolution tells us that the first humans could not speak yet Adam and Eve allegedly could. From the very brief reading I've done from Puck's link (though I will look at it again later), it mentions that Adam and Eve are probably fictional -- though my question is about the concept of sin and the fall of man. Since the Catechism maintains that the premise of man causing his own destruction is true, then who is to "blame" for this if Adam and Eve is not a real story?
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Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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4/23/2011 1:11:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 12:07:42 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 4/23/2011 11:25:52 AM, Denote wrote:
In that case, the death of humankind's ancestors before a soul emerged (through whatever means) wouldn't contradict that verse, because that verse might only refer to beings who have souls (or souls who have bodies. I'm not sure how that's supposed to be worded.)

It's possible, but don't animals have souls? John and Isaiah both mention animals in Heaven.

I don't remember those particular verses off the top of my head, but assuming you're right, that would seem to be a pretty good point. From a Catholic perspective, however, I'm not sure that your conclusion necessarily follows from what you posted above. Check this out:

http://www.catholic.com...

There's clearly some sort of physical aspect to Heaven from that point-of-view. I'm not Catholic nor am I extremely familiar with their ideas, but I can't see any good reason why they wouldn't be able to support the existence of a soulless entity in Heaven.


Very interesting response, but what about Original Sin? Evolution tells us that the first humans could not speak yet Adam and Eve allegedly could. From the very brief reading I've done from Puck's link (though I will look at it again later), it mentions that Adam and Eve are probably fictional -- though my question is about the concept of sin and the fall of man. Since the Catechism maintains that the premise of man causing his own destruction is true, then who is to "blame" for this if Adam and Eve is not a real story?

I have a hunch that my answer isn't going to be very satisfying, but here you go. It's possible that the Adam and Eve story wasn't supposed to be taken as a literal account, yet there was some event where a soul emerged in a "human" at a certain point in time, and they messed things up.

That being said, again, I realize that's probably not a very satisfying answer, so I'll try to do some research and see if I can get back to you on this topic if no one else does.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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4/23/2011 1:33:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 12:07:42 PM, Danielle wrote:

It's possible, but don't animals have souls?

Not in the Religions where it is ok to eat them, thus it might have been possible before the fall (all things were vegan then).
Cliff.Stamp
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4/23/2011 1:35:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 12:01:36 PM, Danielle wrote:

This is what I'm trying to get it - whether this is consistent with evolution, which Pope claims to accept.

Yes it can be, the current species to which we belong could be argued to be the first species which could grasp the concept of God as we do. Thus the first of that species, when they were aware could have so fallen.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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4/23/2011 2:04:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The Sudden Start scenario need only apply to Adam and Eve and could be just as Puck pointed out with his Catholic Source. Adam and Eve could have been taken from lower animal pre existing designs and given a soul at the first Man and Woman.

The rest of the universe could have been sudden and generated with the "illusion" of age.

These are in the realm of acceptable to both religious and scientific means.

I however am much more on the side of ancient earth and sudden start with Catholics. However, I believe the Science from Answers in Genesis and Discovery groups is much stronger than mainstream science presuming ancient age.

It causes my theological ancient earth doubts. :) I would have thought the ancient earth science would have been much stronger but most of it is assumptive.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/23/2011 3:59:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
There are so many Christians who accept the theory of evolution. In fact, the majority of them do so it's promising that The Pope is starting to go in that direction as well. Even my mom doesn't like Catholics on the grounds that "they don't believe in dinosaurs".
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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4/23/2011 5:39:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 12:01:36 PM, Danielle wrote:
This is what I'm trying to get it - whether this is consistent with evolution, which Pope claims to accept.

Eh, it's a mess at best. It's not against evolution since it just invokes some time past where something happened we don't know what in which the result was the fall of man which was later told and interpreted as the events in genesis.

It all depends on what they take as true (the details) from the genesis account - which they don't really elaborate on, probably for good reason since the more vague the 'the fall happened back in the misty past of humanity' is, the less chance of awkward retcon is required again.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/23/2011 5:51:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Even from a Christian perspective I would say the Adam and Eve story is obviously symbolic. The whole things is a poem when you read it in Hebrew. The Jews didn't believe it was literal.
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fnord
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/23/2011 5:53:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 5:51:49 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Even from a Christian perspective I would say the Adam and Eve story is obviously symbolic. The whole things is a poem when you read it in Hebrew. The Jews didn't believe it was literal.

Yea, I don't think I have heard of any Jews who take that story literally.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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4/23/2011 6:01:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 5:53:32 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 4/23/2011 5:51:49 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Even from a Christian perspective I would say the Adam and Eve story is obviously symbolic. The whole things is a poem when you read it in Hebrew. The Jews didn't believe it was literal.

Yea, I don't think I have heard of any Jews who take that story literally.

My understanding is that virtually everyone in the Western world believed the creation narrative was the literal truth until a little over a century ago.
Logic_on_rails
Posts: 2,445
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4/23/2011 6:02:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 5:51:49 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Even from a Christian perspective I would say the Adam and Eve story is obviously symbolic. The whole things is a poem when you read it in Hebrew. The Jews didn't believe it was literal.

Have to say, I didn't know it was a poem originally. Personally, as a Christian, I believe the story is mostly symbolic. I also believe that science and religion can be reconciled. One of the main problems is both theists and atheists take literal interpretations of texts that were likely 1, symbolic when written (Jesus used to use parables as an example) and 2, the meanings of the words used and such have changed over thousands of years, and despite the best efforts, some have gone unnoticed.
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jharry
Posts: 4,984
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4/23/2011 8:53:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 10:33:03 AM, Danielle wrote:
Recently, Pope Benedict argued that there was no conflict between evolution and creationism.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com...

He accepts evolution (Intelligent Design). However if the Pope accepts evolution, I think it becomes problematic for his religious beliefs. Primarily it completely discredits the Adam and Eve story, which is of paramount importance because it explains where Original Sin (and all the crap that goes with it) came from.

It also makes other aspects of scripture problematic. Haha I know inconsistent and flawed verses in the Bible are nothing new, but check it - Romans 5:12 says "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men..." Clearly evolution posits that death occurred before man (in fact man would have not even come into fruition without prior death), so again Adam and Eve could not be the cause for death and sin if evolution is true. In that case, what IS the cause? Because I know "Original Sin" was the answer to sooo many of my questions when I harassed my Catholic School teachers, but without Adam and Eve, where does Original Sin come from?

From the link Punk listed.

Adam and Eve: Real People

It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).

In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: "When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own" (Humani Generis 37).

The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, "The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents" (CCC 390).

How does evolution the Church recognizes conflict with Original sin?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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4/23/2011 9:45:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Danielle, here's something you might want to check out. I haven't completely read it yet, though I plan on doing so eventually.

http://home.messiah.edu...

Go to "Evolution and Original Sin" about halfway down the page.

I wasn't really considering this conversation a "debate" or anything, so I'm hoping you won't be offended that I'm simply linking some other person's work. But yeah, might want to give that a read if you haven't and the subject interests you.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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4/23/2011 9:49:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 10:33:03 AM, Danielle wrote:
Recently, Pope Benedict argued that there was no conflict between evolution and creationism.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com...

He accepts evolution (Intelligent Design). However if the Pope accepts evolution, I think it becomes problematic for his religious beliefs. Primarily it completely discredits the Adam and Eve story, which is of paramount importance because it explains where Original Sin (and all the crap that goes with it) came from.

It also makes other aspects of scripture problematic. Haha I know inconsistent and flawed verses in the Bible are nothing new, but check it - Romans 5:12 says "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men..." Clearly evolution posits that death occurred before man (in fact man would have not even come into fruition without prior death), so again Adam and Eve could not be the cause for death and sin if evolution is true. In that case, what IS the cause? Because I know "Original Sin" was the answer to sooo many of my questions when I harassed my Catholic School teachers, but without Adam and Eve, where does Original Sin come from

Possible answers include......

1) In case of contradiction break glass (Its symbolic, all contradictions are symbolic)
2) You don't understand cause you are blinded by Satan.
3) Evolution is wrong, and the pope is wrong. Seriously can you really trust some old dude that wears a funny hat ? Did Jesus wear a funny hat ? I think not.
4) Death is symbolic.........see point 1
5) Stop asking so many question, just shut up and believe.
6) Your just looking for an excuse to not believe cause you are a wicked sinner
7) Why do you hate Jesus so much ? Don't you know he loves you ?
8) Fine don't believe, go burn in hell if you want too.
9) Your missing the point, the message of Jesus was to love one another.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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4/23/2011 10:01:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 2:04:54 PM, Gileandos wrote:

However, I believe the Science from Answers in Genesis and Discovery groups is much stronger than mainstream science presuming ancient age.

That would make for an interesting debate, I think Roy has done a few of them, you should put up a challenge.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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4/23/2011 10:03:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 3:59:04 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
There are so many Christians who accept the theory of evolution. In fact, the majority of them do so it's promising that The Pope is starting to go in that direction as well. Even my mom doesn't like Catholics on the grounds that "they don't believe in dinosaurs".

Your mom is mistaken, they have much love for the dinosaurs :

http://en.wikipedia.org...

In fact unlike the evolutionauts, they actually believe the dinosaurs still exist!
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/23/2011 11:00:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 10:03:14 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 4/23/2011 3:59:04 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
There are so many Christians who accept the theory of evolution. In fact, the majority of them do so it's promising that The Pope is starting to go in that direction as well. Even my mom doesn't like Catholics on the grounds that "they don't believe in dinosaurs".

Your mom is mistaken, they have much love for the dinosaurs :

http://en.wikipedia.org...

In fact unlike the evolutionauts, they actually believe the dinosaurs still exist!

The YEC amusement park? Seriously? I so want to go there just to laugh and make fun of it!
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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4/23/2011 11:35:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 11:00:56 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:

The YEC amusement park? Seriously?

Yup, Hovind has the T-R-U-T-H about how the Dinosaurs were all all the ark, as babies obviously as otherwise they would not fit (but remember that Noah was 12 feet tall as was 900 years old so his cubits were much larger so the Ark was not as small as you may think). And since the Dinosaurs were all vegan there was no concern about feeding them as they just ate grasses and winning tomato salads. I would just like to know where he put the Abominable Snowman as they can be total assbags if you ever have to sit next to them on a airplane.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/24/2011 12:03:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/23/2011 3:59:04 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
There are so many Christians who accept the theory of evolution. In fact, the majority of them do so it's promising that The Pope is starting to go in that direction as well. Even my mom doesn't like Catholics on the grounds that "they don't believe in dinosaurs".

I grew up catholic.

They believe in Dinosaurs.. and, for the most part, evolution.. the last pope said that Evolution made sense.. and did not contradict the church's positions.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/24/2011 12:17:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/24/2011 12:03:57 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/23/2011 3:59:04 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
There are so many Christians who accept the theory of evolution. In fact, the majority of them do so it's promising that The Pope is starting to go in that direction as well. Even my mom doesn't like Catholics on the grounds that "they don't believe in dinosaurs".

I grew up catholic.

They believe in Dinosaurs.. and, for the most part, evolution.. the last pope said that Evolution made sense.. and did not contradict the church's positions.

Wtf? Where the hell is my mother getting her info from then?!
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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4/24/2011 12:27:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/24/2011 12:17:40 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:

Wtf? Where the hell is my mother getting her info from then?!

Obviously the devil.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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4/24/2011 8:58:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/24/2011 12:27:35 AM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 4/24/2011 12:17:40 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:

Wtf? Where the hell is my mother getting her info from then?!

Obviously the devil.

ROFL!
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/24/2011 10:13:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/24/2011 12:11:52 AM, Puck wrote:
At 4/23/2011 8:53:45 PM, jharry wrote:
From the link Punk listed.

jharry is Godsands. Who knew. :P

LOL
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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4/24/2011 1:01:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/24/2011 12:11:52 AM, Puck wrote:
At 4/23/2011 8:53:45 PM, jharry wrote:
From the link Punk listed.

jharry is Godsands. Who knew. :P

Oops! So so sorry Puck. I hope you know the mistake was an accident. I think I hit the "fix all" spelling mistakes. I hope you know you are one of the few atheists I actually like on here. Please forgive my mistake.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen