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God gave humanity to Satan as a gift and rewa

GreatestIam
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4/26/2011 2:55:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
God gave humanity to Satan as a gift and reward.

God, in the beginning, created all that was. He called it Eden and put adam in it. The lower case adam, means society. God later called us Adam and Eve, to designate and differentiate man and woman. That is likely why creation of man is shown twice in Genesis.

He then gave all of us to Satan as a gift and made him the ruler of this world as a reward. This maintains the illusion that God gave us free will. After all, free will means we are able to rule ourselves so God himself cannot call himself our ruler without negating our free will. We cannot do as we will if we are following his will. This is quite simple to understand.

Satan, the great deceiver, God's favorite and glorious angel, was then given the power and instruction to deceive all of mankind. This is obviously why Satan and or the talking serpent were in Eden. God does not put a fox in the henhouse without good reason. The reason was to insure that Adam and Eve became as Gods. You will know that the loss of the tree of life is never shown as a loss anywhere in scripture. You likely know why.

Dogma says that God basically lost all control over mankind at that point and the absence of God, which many call evil and hell, attests to this as an irrefutable fact. Evil is definitely on earth and since God and evil is said to never be in the same place, we know that God is no longer here. We are on our own against Satan and his minions. A full third of the angels that God felt were good enough to be with his best, Satan.

Humanity is Satan's beyond any doubt. He is the master and we are all slaves to sin.
God helps maintain this situation by insuring that all are born with original sin and sets our nature to do just that, sin.

Scripture is clear on these points. The big question is why?

This seems to be the only answer---------

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This tells me that we must all sin and repent, to not perish and insure that we are saved.

Colossians 1: 15 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

It does not take a rocket scientist to dither out that if God were to lose any of us, that would not please him. A God, who had miracle available, would always make sure that his will is never thwarted.

The following type of scenario is then never allowed.

Those with any sort of faith should know this, but somehow, they follow dogma and a theology that says that God does lose some of us and that somehow, even with all those miracles at hand, Satan and man can thwart God's will and desire to save us all. This is impossible.

It seems that this bishop is be correct.

If we are all to be deceived as scripture indicates, and the majority of the world has faith, logic says that if you have faith in Jesus, God or Allah, then your faith is a deception from Satan. Many say that Satan's greatest deception or trick is to fool us into believing that he does not exist. The opposite seems to be true and that it is God who is no longer here on this evil world.

Doubt is a good quality. It wards of gullibility.

Should you doubt your faith or do you somehow think that your particular faith, whichever it is, is exempt from Satan's God given power of deception and dominion over you?

Are you so arrogant that you will ignore Gods own prophesy, that all will be deceived, by not judging the God offered by your church?

Do you dare take that chance and not judge your God, by his actions, to know if you follow a moral God or not?

If deceived, how could we possibly know?

I think there is only one solution. That is, compared the two major forms of law and morality on the planet. Secularism and religions.
I follow secular law because Satan has deceived you people of faith because I see that you love to hate, and demand that there be a place of punishment instead of a place to cure those you and your false God believe to be lost souls.

This Gnostic Christian says that God is a good and moral God and he cures souls. He does not torture them. Any that have truly repented of their sins will know this to be a truth and know that God‘s will that none be lost cannot be thwarted. Even in his never ending absence. He will never return because of the fact of our free will. If we are doing His will, we cannot be exercising our free will. God wants free men. Not slaves.

Where is our master Satan then?
In our sin nature.
Where else could spirit entities live?

Regards
DL
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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4/27/2011 10:10:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/26/2011 2:55:42 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
God gave humanity to Satan as a gift and reward.

God, in the beginning, created all that was. He called it Eden and put adam in it. The lower case adam, means society. God later called us Adam and Eve, to designate and differentiate man and woman. That is likely why creation of man is shown twice in Genesis.

He then gave all of us to Satan as a gift and made him the ruler of this world as a reward. This maintains the illusion that God gave us free will. After all, free will means we are able to rule ourselves so God himself cannot call himself our ruler without negating our free will. We cannot do as we will if we are following his will. This is quite simple to understand.

Satan, the great deceiver, God's favorite and glorious angel, was then given the power and instruction to deceive all of mankind. This is obviously why Satan and or the talking serpent were in Eden. God does not put a fox in the henhouse without good reason. The reason was to insure that Adam and Eve became as Gods. You will know that the loss of the tree of life is never shown as a loss anywhere in scripture. You likely know why.

Dogma says that God basically lost all control over mankind at that point and the absence of God, which many call evil and hell, attests to this as an irrefutable fact. Evil is definitely on earth and since God and evil is said to never be in the same place, we know that God is no longer here. We are on our own against Satan and his minions. A full third of the angels that God felt were good enough to be with his best, Satan.

Humanity is Satan's beyond any doubt. He is the master and we are all slaves to sin.
God helps maintain this situation by insuring that all are born with original sin and sets our nature to do just that, sin.

Scripture is clear on these points. The big question is why?

This seems to be the only answer---------

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This tells me that we must all sin and repent, to not perish and insure that we are saved.

Colossians 1: 15 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

It does not take a rocket scientist to dither out that if God were to lose any of us, that would not please him. A God, who had miracle available, would always make sure that his will is never thwarted.

The following type of scenario is then never allowed.



Those with any sort of faith should know this, but somehow, they follow dogma and a theology that says that God does lose some of us and that somehow, even with all those miracles at hand, Satan and man can thwart God's will and desire to save us all. This is impossible.

It seems that this bishop is be correct.



If we are all to be deceived as scripture indicates, and the majority of the world has faith, logic says that if you have faith in Jesus, God or Allah, then your faith is a deception from Satan. Many say that Satan's greatest deception or trick is to fool us into believing that he does not exist. The opposite seems to be true and that it is God who is no longer here on this evil world.

Doubt is a good quality. It wards of gullibility.

Should you doubt your faith or do you somehow think that your particular faith, whichever it is, is exempt from Satan's God given power of deception and dominion over you?

Are you so arrogant that you will ignore Gods own prophesy, that all will be deceived, by not judging the God offered by your church?

Do you dare take that chance and not judge your God, by his actions, to know if you follow a moral God or not?

If deceived, how could we possibly know?

I think there is only one solution. That is, compared the two major forms of law and morality on the planet. Secularism and religions.
I follow secular law because Satan has deceived you people of faith because I see that you love to hate, and demand that there be a place of punishment instead of a place to cure those you and your false God believe to be lost souls.

This Gnostic Christian says that God is a good and moral God and he cures souls. He does not torture them. Any that have truly repented of their sins will know this to be a truth and know that God‘s will that none be lost cannot be thwarted. Even in his never ending absence. He will never return because of the fact of our free will. If we are doing His will, we cannot be exercising our free will. God wants free men. Not slaves.

Where is our master Satan then?
In our sin nature.
Where else could spirit entities live?

Regards
DL

No, God gave satan the job of tempting humanity but he took the blueprints and 'done a runner with them'.. since the cross satan is BACK under control..
But ONLY to those who follow Christ.
The Cross.. the Cross.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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4/27/2011 11:46:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Not very convincing. Its just sounds like a theory to me. Or a hypothesis. Too lacking in evidence.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
GreatestIam
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4/27/2011 1:17:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/27/2011 10:10:02 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 4/26/2011 2:55:42 PM, GreatestIam wrote:

No, God gave satan the job of tempting humanity but he took the blueprints and 'done a runner with them'.. since the cross satan is BACK under control..
But ONLY to those who follow Christ.

How droll.
Is that like home visits?
He is under control but not under control.

Ok.

That is somewhat like the free will God supposedly gave us.

Do things my way or burn forever. Thanks for the free will God. Not

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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4/27/2011 1:19:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/27/2011 11:46:53 AM, phantom wrote:
Not very convincing. Its just sounds like a theory to me. Or a hypothesis. Too lacking in evidence.

Are you speaking of all religious theologies?

I agree. There is no evidence for any of them.

Regards
DL
christisking
Posts: 72
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4/28/2011 8:18:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/27/2011 1:17:59 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 4/27/2011 10:10:02 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 4/26/2011 2:55:42 PM, GreatestIam wrote:

No, God gave satan the job of tempting humanity but he took the blueprints and 'done a runner with them'.. since the cross satan is BACK under control..
But ONLY to those who follow Christ.

How droll.
Is that like home visits?
He is under control but not under control.

Ok.

That is somewhat like the free will God supposedly gave us.

Do things my way or burn forever. Thanks for the free will God. Not

Regards
DL

You ask why those who break God's will go to hell. The reason is that they choose to be their own master. The only place they could feel secure in thier self mastery after death would be where the all-powerful God does not live, i.e. hell. Thus, God's gift of free will is genuine, and it allows men to choose what sort of eternal life they think will make them happiest.
GreatestIam
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4/29/2011 7:41:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 8:18:38 PM, christisking wrote:
At 4/27/2011 1:17:59 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 4/27/2011 10:10:02 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 4/26/2011 2:55:42 PM, GreatestIam wrote:

No, God gave satan the job of tempting humanity but he took the blueprints and 'done a runner with them'.. since the cross satan is BACK under control..
But ONLY to those who follow Christ.

How droll.
Is that like home visits?
He is under control but not under control.

Ok.

That is somewhat like the free will God supposedly gave us.

Do things my way or burn forever. Thanks for the free will God. Not

Regards
DL

You ask why those who break God's will go to hell. The reason is that they choose to be their own master. The only place they could feel secure in thier self mastery after death would be where the all-powerful God does not live, i.e. hell. Thus, God's gift of free will is genuine, and it allows men to choose what sort of eternal life they think will make them happiest.

I see. So if we accept God's free will and act autonomously and reject being slaves to God, we are choosing to burn in hell forever. That is the dogma for sure. God's policy is then ---be my slave or burn. Right?

" God's gift of free will is genuine, and it allows men to choose what sort of eternal life they think will make them happiest."

Facing God and having confirmed his reality. how many people do you think are insane enough to choose eternal torture?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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4/30/2011 9:47:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/29/2011 3:45:02 PM, joneszj wrote:
Hey DL, there is alot to address there. You also put up alot of straw men based on bad not even ecumenical theology.

I have a clearly defined logic trail.

Sounds like you are a theist who cannot refute it.

Do or don't. Don't just bitch.

Is Satan the prince of the earth or not and is that not a reward?

If you are not a theist then the question should not interest you.

Regards
DL
DATCMOTO
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5/3/2011 5:49:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/27/2011 1:17:59 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 4/27/2011 10:10:02 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 4/26/2011 2:55:42 PM, GreatestIam wrote:

No, God gave satan the job of tempting humanity but he took the blueprints and 'done a runner with them'.. since the cross satan is BACK under control..
But ONLY to those who follow Christ.

How droll.
Is that like home visits?
He is under control but not under control.

Ok.

That is somewhat like the free will God supposedly gave us.

Do things my way or burn forever. Thanks for the free will God. Not

Regards
DL

This is how everything works: We walk in the freedom that the western alliance won for us during the 2nd world war and the cold war.. if you are not under the authority of that victory then you cannot walk in it's freedom.. if you do not recognise America's victory and Japan's surrender then you must keep fighting and face the consequences!

A Christian recognises (by Grace) Christ's victory over satan on the cross and so we walk in the liberty of that victory; JUST like the west.
The Cross.. the Cross.
GreatestIam
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5/3/2011 10:53:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/3/2011 5:49:42 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 4/27/2011 1:17:59 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 4/27/2011 10:10:02 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 4/26/2011 2:55:42 PM, GreatestIam wrote:

No, God gave satan the job of tempting humanity but he took the blueprints and 'done a runner with them'.. since the cross satan is BACK under control..
But ONLY to those who follow Christ.

How droll.
Is that like home visits?
He is under control but not under control.

Ok.

That is somewhat like the free will God supposedly gave us.

Do things my way or burn forever. Thanks for the free will God. Not

Regards
DL

This is how everything works: We walk in the freedom that the western alliance won for us during the 2nd world war and the cold war.. if you are not under the authority of that victory then you cannot walk in it's freedom.. if you do not recognise America's victory and Japan's surrender then you must keep fighting and face the consequences!

A Christian recognises (by Grace) Christ's victory over satan on the cross and so we walk in the liberty of that victory; JUST like the west.

You are so busy riding your scapegoat Jesus and adding to his burden that you have forgotten his words.

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Listen to reason and take the moral road.

Regards
DL
christisking
Posts: 72
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5/3/2011 1:46:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/26/2011 2:55:42 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
God gave humanity to Satan as a gift and reward.

God, in the beginning, created all that was. He called it Eden and put adam in it. The lower case adam, means society. God later called us Adam and Eve, to designate and differentiate man and woman. That is likely why creation of man is shown twice in Genesis.

He then gave all of us to Satan as a gift and made him the ruler of this world as a reward. This maintains the illusion that God gave us free will. After all, free will means we are able to rule ourselves so God himself cannot call himself our ruler without negating our free will. We cannot do as we will if we are following his will. This is quite simple to understand.


I'd like focus on what you said about free will. It sounds like you are saying that a world ruled by God cannot have members with free will. It seems that you have misunderstood in what manner God rules the world. He does not rule in the sense that everything goes exactly as he initially intended, rather He rules in the sense that anything that happens has been explicitly permited by Him. The reason we see things in this world which he does not approve is that he permited man free will, and thus was willing to allow man to choose evil over good. Thus, God is ruler of the world, since he could stop sin if he wished, but he chooses not to, and thus alows men thier free will.
GreatestIam
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5/3/2011 3:23:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/3/2011 1:46:31 PM, christisking wrote:
At 4/26/2011 2:55:42 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
God gave humanity to Satan as a gift and reward.

God, in the beginning, created all that was. He called it Eden and put adam in it. The lower case adam, means society. God later called us Adam and Eve, to designate and differentiate man and woman. That is likely why creation of man is shown twice in Genesis.

He then gave all of us to Satan as a gift and made him the ruler of this world as a reward. This maintains the illusion that God gave us free will. After all, free will means we are able to rule ourselves so God himself cannot call himself our ruler without negating our free will. We cannot do as we will if we are following his will. This is quite simple to understand.


I'd like focus on what you said about free will. It sounds like you are saying that a world ruled by God cannot have members with free will. It seems that you have misunderstood in what manner God rules the world. He does not rule in the sense that everything goes exactly as he initially intended, rather He rules in the sense that anything that happens has been explicitly permited by Him. The reason we see things in this world which he does not approve is that he permited man free will, and thus was willing to allow man to choose evil over good. Thus, God is ruler of the world, since he could stop sin if he wished, but he chooses not to, and thus alows men thier free will.

How droll.
You have God sitting there watching some young girl get gang banged without lifting a holy finger.

Secular law has laws against that kind of callous, unfeeling and unconcern from one human to other humans. That is why man's laws are better than the laws of the God you follow.

Any God who says he cares about humans and allow all the rapes and murders to take place deserves a bullet in the head himself.
When you get to heaven, will you stand beside him and help him do nothing as he watches rapes?

As to free will. Freedom and free will is something that we all take. These cannot be given to us unless they are forcibly being held from us.

We are all free to kill at this very moment. We choose not to. No one has given us the freedom to murder. Who has that power. No one. Not even God.

The only so called freedom that God supposedly gives us is the freedom to do things the way he wants or burn in hell forever.
That is not freedom. It is a threat.

Man cannot be doing his will if he is doing the will of God at all times and God is clear that we are to do his will and not our own.

What happened to those of Noah's day when they did their wills?

Regards
DL
christisking
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5/3/2011 3:47:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
How droll.
You have God sitting there watching some young girl get gang banged without lifting a holy finger.

Secular law has laws against that kind of callous, unfeeling and unconcern from one human to other humans. That is why man's laws are better than the laws of the God you follow.

Any God who says he cares about humans and allow all the rapes and murders to take place deserves a bullet in the head himself.
When you get to heaven, will you stand beside him and help him do nothing as he watches rapes?

As to free will. Freedom and free will is something that we all take. These cannot be given to us unless they are forcibly being held from us.

We are all free to kill at this very moment. We choose not to. No one has given us the freedom to murder. Who has that power. No one. Not even God.

The only so called freedom that God supposedly gives us is the freedom to do things the way he wants or burn in hell forever.
That is not freedom. It is a threat.

Man cannot be doing his will if he is doing the will of God at all times and God is clear that we are to do his will and not our own.

What happened to those of Noah's day when they did their wills?

Regards
DL

I've noticed you love sarcasam, and I expect to hear a lot of it in your next post since I'm about to try and compress an essay's worth explanation into about a paragraph.

So you agree that we all have free will and that it is a good thing, because if we have no free will, then we cannot have any sort of freedom which you seem to believe is a valuable thing. As a matter of fact, Christians believe that free will was one of the greatest gifts of God to man. By giving us free will, He enabled to love (since love is the choice to put another above oneself) and love is the highest kind of action since it directly imitates God (who is love itself according to the New Testament), the creator of all things. If God were to step down and correct every evil after it were commited, then he would be withdrawing the greatest gift he has given man kind since the only choice left would be to do the good which God will allow you to do, which is not a free choice. Now, you asked how can a loving God allow innocent people to suffer. Through suffering (whether it be emotional, cycological, physical, spiritual, etc.) can serve as a chance for God to bring us closer to him. When we suffer, we realize that we cannot live a happy, peacefull life here on earth by our own efforts. Thus, a person will hopefully realize and accept that God is the only one who can fully ease our pain. Thus, the suffering helps God bring people closer to Him which in the end will make them happier since all men were made to be with God from the begining.
DATCMOTO
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5/4/2011 5:34:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/3/2011 10:53:04 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/3/2011 5:49:42 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 4/27/2011 1:17:59 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 4/27/2011 10:10:02 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 4/26/2011 2:55:42 PM, GreatestIam wrote:

No, God gave satan the job of tempting humanity but he took the blueprints and 'done a runner with them'.. since the cross satan is BACK under control..
But ONLY to those who follow Christ.

How droll.
Is that like home visits?
He is under control but not under control.

Ok.

That is somewhat like the free will God supposedly gave us.

Do things my way or burn forever. Thanks for the free will God. Not

Regards
DL

This is how everything works: We walk in the freedom that the western alliance won for us during the 2nd world war and the cold war.. if you are not under the authority of that victory then you cannot walk in it's freedom.. if you do not recognise America's victory and Japan's surrender then you must keep fighting and face the consequences!

A Christian recognises (by Grace) Christ's victory over satan on the cross and so we walk in the liberty of that victory; JUST like the west.

You are so busy riding your scapegoat Jesus and adding to his burden that you have forgotten his words.

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.





Listen to reason and take the moral road.

Regards
DL

To walk in His victory and liberty IS to take up ones cross and follow Him; because the world hates those who are not bound by the world any longer.

I note you did not confront my war/political freedom analogy..
The Cross.. the Cross.
GreatestIam
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5/4/2011 9:35:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/3/2011 3:47:37 PM, christisking wrote:

So you agree that we all have free will and that it is a good thing, because if we have no free will, then we cannot have any sort of freedom which you seem to believe is a valuable thing. As a matter of fact, Christians believe that free will was one of the greatest gifts of God to man. By giving us free will, He enabled to love (since love is the choice to put another above oneself) and love is the highest kind of action since it directly imitates God (who is love itself according to the New Testament),

Sarcasm not required this time. Your own words condemns your God.

If love, as you say, places others above oneself, who has God placed above himself?

The mankind he used Genocide on?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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5/4/2011 9:36:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 5:34:58 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

I note you did not confront my war/political freedom analogy..

And I notice that you did not decide to take the moral path.

Regards
DL
christisking
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5/4/2011 4:40:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Sarcasm not required this time. Your own words condemns your God.

If love, as you say, places others above oneself, who has God placed above himself?

The mankind he used Genocide on?

Regards
DL

God did not have to make man. He did not need us in any way. It was purely an act of love (i.e. putting man's interests first, since the only thing God stood to gain was our insults and blasphamy).

What makes you think that God deliberatly causes Genocide upon mankind solely to harm them? Genocide is a sin commited by men, not God. Are you refering to natural disasters? Keep in mind that most loving thing God can do for a man is bring him into eternal paradise or help him towards eternal paradise. So, those who die and go to heaven have been given a great gift. If one of these men who died in the natural disaster go to hell, then it was thier choice. God always gives the grace to repent of sin before death, so if someone goes to hell, it is thier own fault and not God's. The reason a loving God could allow these men to die and go to hell is so that other men will realize that death could come to them at any time, and that they should give a little more consideration to the way they are living thier lives.
Lionheart
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5/4/2011 5:15:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Christians amuse me when they try to justify their version of God. It is a view of living through fear, not love. You fear that if you don't follow your religion then you will be punished or not rewarded... Correct?

So you live out of the Fear of God, not Love. For anyone or anything to force it's will upon something else is evil. For anyone or anything to punish something because of not accepting their will is evil. To reward for accepting a forced will is evil. To let things hurt or die when you have the power to help is evil.

I could list more, but I feel no need.

Your Christian God does all of these things. Christians live out of fear of their God's will. You love your version of God for what? Because He gave you the choice to be rewarded as a slave?

A good moral God of Love would never create a religion like Christianity or any of the dogma that goes along with it.

Christianity is more evil than good in my opinion and maybe it is a religion spawned by an Evil entity. (aka The Devil)
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
christisking
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5/4/2011 7:02:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 5:15:55 PM, Lionheart wrote:
Christians amuse me when they try to justify their version of God. It is a view of living through fear, not love. You fear that if you don't follow your religion then you will be punished or not rewarded... Correct?

So you live out of the Fear of God, not Love. For anyone or anything to force it's will upon something else is evil. For anyone or anything to punish something because of not accepting their will is evil. To reward for accepting a forced will is evil. To let things hurt or die when you have the power to help is evil.

I could list more, but I feel no need.

Your Christian God does all of these things. Christians live out of fear of their God's will. You love your version of God for what? Because He gave you the choice to be rewarded as a slave?

A good moral God of Love would never create a religion like Christianity or any of the dogma that goes along with it.

Christianity is more evil than good in my opinion and maybe it is a religion spawned by an Evil entity. (aka The Devil)

Dictionary.com
fear - a feeling of distress, apprehension, or alarm caused by impending danger, pain, etc
Christianity, far from being based on fear, removes fear from the lives of its members. God has promised us eternal happiness, so what is there to feel this 'distrees, apprehension, or alarm' about? The chief reasons that an experienced Christian will have for not sinning is 1) sin offends God who has given us everything, and thus deserves our gratitude; and 2) sin leads to unhappiness, while virtue leads to true joy. The ones who commit suicide are the ones who have tried to lead a life of pleasure and found themselves empty or those who do not have any thing to hope for which can get them through thier sufferings. Christianity and a virtuous life solve both of these problems.

"For anyone or anything to force it's will upon something else is evil." - I agree. God does not force his will on us, he gives us the option to avoid him for all eternity, i.e. hell.

"For anyone or anything to punish something because of not accepting their will is evil." - Thus a parent who repremands thier child for walking in the middle of the street is evil. A teacher who gives out a detention is an abomination. All government with any form of judicial system is completely corrupt. No! I think we can see that punishment, when it serves a purpose, is very good. The only punishments which God gives out are to the purpose of bringing men back to the realization that sin leaves one feeling empty, while virtue brings true joy.

"To reward for accepting a forced will is evil." - Once again, God gives us the choice. Our wills are not forced to accept him. That is the better alternative, but God does not force us to take it. If you are doing nothing saturday night, and your best friend invites you to hang out and says he'll buy you a pizza if you come over, the choice is farily obvious. Your friend is not forcing you to come, but his 'reward' of pizza is not evil. You will almost undoubtedly accept since you have nothing to lose and everything to gain, but this doesn't mean that your friend forced you to come.

"To let things hurt or die when you have the power to help is evil." - If it is moral to cause suffering for a good cause, then it is moral to allow suffering for a good cause. When an athlete goes to the weight room, he knows that he is going to come out of there suffering from fatigue and pain. However, it is better for him to go into the weight room since it will allow him to be stronger in his next atheletic event. Just so, God allows suffering, because he knows that it will help a man to find a greater hapiness than he currently has. Suffering reminds a man that he is not God, and that he can only be happy and be at peace if he relys on God's strength to conquer the challenges of life, and not his own strength.

A man will always be a slave of something. He will either be a slave of his passions, or he will be a slave of some higher cause or some higher being who tells him not to follow his passions.
Lionheart
Posts: 520
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5/4/2011 9:33:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You sound like a nice good Christian. A nice good Christian slave to your Christian God brainwashed into accepting a reward in exchange for your free will, your soul, and your eternal worship and acceptance of anything He says?

"Thou shalt not kill" But I as your God can.

"Thou shalt not steal" But I as your God can.

God doesn't even follow His own rules and you find reason to trust Him?

Your God says either join me and follow my will or I will kick you to the curb when you die... And you find that as a good quality? What about eternal understanding and compassion? Your God must not possess those qualities or it would not have such harsh rules to follow. What about a handicapped child that can't comprehend what God is? What about a full grown man who still can't understand what God is?

There are many valid questions to be answered by your Christian God.

The Christian God is not the true God. The true God would have omnipotent understanding, compassion, and love.

Your God's rules are... "accept what I say as truth or else you won't like the consequences". That's like a parent saying... "You can choose to listen to me or not, but if you choose to not listen me... I will either punish you or kick you to the curb forever."

Sounds like a horrible parent (aka God).

You will learn the truth when you wake up from your Christian brainwashing.

Your Christian God is not the True God. The God you worship is more evil than good.

I've been blessed to witness 9 people who woke up from strict Christian brainwashing. It has been quite an experience for them. They all wish that they could get the time back that they lost, but it can't be done.

Don't worry though, I'm sure that the True God... with all his love and compassion, actually has created a place for you Christians to be happy when you die. A place very similar to your Christian "Heaven". Obviously, the majority of you have a good heart... even though you might be spiritually lost. None the less, the True God has a place for you. He also has a place for everyone else too, so don't feel too special.

So go ahead and stay on your spiritual path if you are truly happy with yourself, your life, and your belief system... But if not, follow what makes you happy in your soul. Live through what truly feels right to you. Just live with morality, strive for happiness, and try to become a better person in general. That is all the True God would ever want from His children.

Either way, the True God won't judge you for your choices. He has a place for everyone. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, Mystics, Pagans, etc.

The True Gods must love getting acknowledgement and love from so many different kinds of people, under so many different kinds of names. Surely with His loving compassion, he feels pity and sympathy for those who are lost and have trouble believing in Him. I'm sure He finds a way to help them eventually, even if it is after they die.

Either way, the True God that I speak of is way more loving and powerful than your Christian God.

Believe what you want.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/5/2011 6:04:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 9:36:54 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/4/2011 5:34:58 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

I note you did not confront my war/political freedom analogy..

And I notice that you did not decide to take the moral path.

Regards
DL

Whose morality? yours? mans? I've been there and it STINKS TO HIGH HEAVEN!

My righeousness is His: I am clothed with Jesus Christ, Whose righteousness is SEAMLESS!

John 19:23
When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.


Mans righteousness is a patched together mess of 'I'm good because' (I give to charity, pay my taxes, go to church, recycle my garbage etc etc)
The Cross.. the Cross.
christisking
Posts: 72
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5/5/2011 6:53:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 9:33:13 PM, Lionheart wrote:
You sound like a nice good Christian. A nice good Christian slave to your Christian God brainwashed into accepting a reward in exchange for your free will, your soul, and your eternal worship and acceptance of anything He says?

"Thou shalt not kill" But I as your God can.

"Thou shalt not steal" But I as your God can.

God doesn't even follow His own rules and you find reason to trust Him?

Your God says either join me and follow my will or I will kick you to the curb when you die... And you find that as a good quality? What about eternal understanding and compassion? Your God must not possess those qualities or it would not have such harsh rules to follow. What about a handicapped child that can't comprehend what God is? What about a full grown man who still can't understand what God is?

There are many valid questions to be answered by your Christian God.

The Christian God is not the true God. The true God would have omnipotent understanding, compassion, and love.

Your God's rules are... "accept what I say as truth or else you won't like the consequences". That's like a parent saying... "You can choose to listen to me or not, but if you choose to not listen me... I will either punish you or kick you to the curb forever."

Sounds like a horrible parent (aka God).

You will learn the truth when you wake up from your Christian brainwashing.

Your Christian God is not the True God. The God you worship is more evil than good.

I've been blessed to witness 9 people who woke up from strict Christian brainwashing. It has been quite an experience for them. They all wish that they could get the time back that they lost, but it can't be done.

Don't worry though, I'm sure that the True God... with all his love and compassion, actually has created a place for you Christians to be happy when you die. A place very similar to your Christian "Heaven". Obviously, the majority of you have a good heart... even though you might be spiritually lost. None the less, the True God has a place for you. He also has a place for everyone else too, so don't feel too special.

So go ahead and stay on your spiritual path if you are truly happy with yourself, your life, and your belief system... But if not, follow what makes you happy in your soul. Live through what truly feels right to you. Just live with morality, strive for happiness, and try to become a better person in general. That is all the True God would ever want from His children.

Either way, the True God won't judge you for your choices. He has a place for everyone. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, Mystics, Pagans, etc.

The True Gods must love getting acknowledgement and love from so many different kinds of people, under so many different kinds of names. Surely with His loving compassion, he feels pity and sympathy for those who are lost and have trouble believing in Him. I'm sure He finds a way to help them eventually, even if it is after they die.

Either way, the True God that I speak of is way more loving and powerful than your Christian God.

Believe what you want.

Lionheart, what you have just described is a mushy God, not a loving God. The God you described is merely wasting a man's time by puting him here on this abomination of a planet compared to the paradise he could have placed us in. Why are we here? If God doesn't care what we believe or what we do, then I have to assume that we are all going to heaven, because that is the 'kind' thing that your 'loving' God would do. I've experienced sin, and I've seen that it is not worth the small moment of pleasure that it gives. A God who is not willing to guide a man to the joy and peace of virtue is not a God worth following. No, Christianity is the only way that this world makes sense, and a truely loving God is indeed like a parent who is willing to repremand a child for its own sake.
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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5/5/2011 10:21:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 4:40:25 PM, christisking wrote:
Sarcasm not required this time. Your own words condemns your God.

If love, as you say, places others above oneself, who has God placed above himself?

The mankind he used Genocide on?

Regards
DL

God did not have to make man. He did not need us in any way. It was purely an act of love (i.e. putting man's interests first, since the only thing God stood to gain was our insults and blasphamy).

What makes you think that God deliberatly causes Genocide upon mankind solely to harm them? Genocide is a sin commited by men, .

And God using genocide is not a sin?

Do as I say and not as I do is one hell of a way to teach people what to do.

Quite the law maker you have.

How pathetic.

And it is quite hypocritical to call Sodom and Noah's genocide natural disasters.

Regards
DL
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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5/5/2011 11:12:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Lionheart and DL, you are both attacking a God Christians do NOT believe. The god you portray is NOT the God Christians have believed in for centuries. You fail to understand certain KEY theological concepts and then already not understanding you mock and belittle. First understand what Christians have believed for centuries ECUMENICALLY (not modern pop theology). Then you can have grounds instead of making straw men just to burn yourself.
christisking
Posts: 72
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5/5/2011 1:50:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/5/2011 10:21:31 AM, GreatestIam wrote:

And God using genocide is not a sin?

Do as I say and not as I do is one hell of a way to teach people what to do.

Quite the law maker you have.

How pathetic.

And it is quite hypocritical to call Sodom and Noah's genocide natural disasters.

Regards
DL

I agree that death is an evil, but I would like to ask what is evil about death? Death can be evil in two ways. 1) if the man was evil, then he will no longer have a chance to find his salvation and repent, thus going to hell. 2) if the man was good, then he has been robbed of his oportunity to do more good on earth. Please present more evils of death if you would like.

In the case of the deaths from Sodom and Noah's flood, what evil was God causing that you claim? Since all of the men were sinners, the evil caused by their death was the fact that they went to hell. How can God do this? Firstly, God has the right to be the judge of men's lives, it is in his nature as God. So, in his wisdom and justice, he determined that these men had completed their test (since this life is essentially a 'test' to give us a chance to choose to follow God or our own desires) and had had enough chance to repent. Thus, there was nothing unjust about God taking thier lives at this point. On the flip side, God saved thousands of souls from being led astray by thier wickedness and being brough to hell with them. Thus, there was nothing unjust or imoral about what God did, and there was actually much good which came about as a result.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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5/5/2011 2:21:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 9:33:13 PM, Lionheart wrote:


"Thou shalt not kill" But I as your God can.

"Thou shalt not steal" But I as your God can.

Everything that we have on this earth including our lives belong to God.
Everything you have on this earth was given to you by God but still belongs to God.

God doesn't even follow His own rules and you find reason to trust Him?
Your God says either join me and follow my will or I will kick you to the curb when you die... And you find that as a good quality? What about eternal understanding and compassion? Your God must not possess those qualities or it would not have such harsh rules to follow. What about a handicapped child that can't comprehend what God is? What about a full grown man who still can't understand what God is?

You blame God for sin. Don't blame God, blame man, blame the devil for tempting Eve.

There are many valid questions to be answered by your Christian God.

The Christian God is not the true God. The true God would have omnipotent understanding, compassion, and love.

Your God's rules are... "accept what I say as truth or else you won't like the consequences". That's like a parent saying... "You can choose to listen to me or not, but if you choose to not listen me... I will either punish you or kick you to the curb forever."

God gave man a choice. Because of Gods gracious love He sent Jesus down to earth to die for our sins. Without Jesus we would all go to hell. God does not force us to follow Him. To follow Him is easily the best choice but He does not force it on us.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Lionheart
Posts: 520
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5/5/2011 2:23:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I say to just continue down your path of brainwashing if it makes you that happy.... Maybe being brainwashed is sometimes a good thing for some people.

The True God will still love you anyway. The True God is not a mushy God. Having such love does not make anyone or anything mushy, Love is the most powerful force in the universe.

A question. There is a woman... A woman that does not follow Christianity, who is truly a loving and caring woman...that helps to save lives everyday and gives her wealth to the less fortunate.

Are you telling me that such a woman would go to Hell for not following Christianity and not asking to be saved by Jesus? If you say no, then why be Christian? Why ask for Jesus to be your savior? If you say yes, then I say what foolish arrogance and ignorance your religion has.

The True God has made things to where all souls are eternal. What happens to you when you die has a great deal to do with what is in your soul. Not what religion you followed or didn't follow. Not if you asked to be saved by a man that walked the earth 2000 years ago. You are what you are in your soul. This will not change when you die.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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5/5/2011 2:29:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/5/2011 1:50:46 PM, christisking wrote:
At 5/5/2011 10:21:31 AM, GreatestIam wrote:

And God using genocide is not a sin?

Do as I say and not as I do is one hell of a way to teach people what to do.

Quite the law maker you have.

How pathetic.

And it is quite hypocritical to call Sodom and Noah's genocide natural disasters.

Regards
DL

I agree that death is an evil, but I would like to ask what is evil about death? Death can be evil in two ways. 1) if the man was evil, then he will no longer have a chance to find his salvation and repent, thus going to hell. 2) if the man was good, then he has been robbed of his oportunity to do more good on earth. Please present more evils of death if you would like.

In the case of the deaths from Sodom and Noah's flood, what evil was God causing that you claim? Since all of the men were sinners, the evil caused by their death was the fact that they went to hell. How can God do this? Firstly, God has the right to be the judge of men's lives, it is in his nature as God. So, in his wisdom and justice, he determined that these men had completed their test (since this life is essentially a 'test' to give us a chance to choose to follow God or our own desires) and had had enough chance to repent. Thus, there was nothing unjust about God taking thier lives at this point. On the flip side, God saved thousands of souls from being led astray by thier wickedness and being brough to hell with them. Thus, there was nothing unjust or imoral about what God did, and there was actually much good which came about as a result.

Would it be fair for me to point out that there are different 'evils' mentioned in scripture. The two I think are pertinent to this conversation are evil as in a calamity and evil as in an immorality. God is incapable of the latter while he former He declares (example: Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6). For more: http://carm.org...
Lionheart
Posts: 520
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5/5/2011 3:23:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I just can't believe that your religion has got you so brainwashed that you can't even know what's right or wrong for yourself anymore.

All you do quote words from the bible on why you should think a certain way.

Can't you think for yourself? Does everything in there truly make sense to you?

It is a book. That's all it is. A book. And it's not even that great of a book. I don't see what the big deal is. I don't understand how people can be brainwashed so easily.. It makes me think that there must be evil energy involved. There are plenty of other books out there that can teach humans a lot more efficiently than the Bible... And none of them should be taken as the real truth either. Life should always be questioning, it promotes growth through finding the answers.

You believe in Adam and Eve? God wants us to dress modestly? Hmmm... So that's why we are born without clothing. Adam and Eve weren't created with clothing. So you either... A.) Have to admit that God truly wants something different than what He is telling you in the Bible, because he originally created humans to be naked and to not be ashamed of their bodies. Or... B.) You have to admit that God made a mistake when He first created us, that He is flawed, and that everything else He tells us should be questioned because He is flawed and also makes mistakes.

Choose your side. Either way, Christianity doesn't make much sense to me. It is for sheep. For the slave minded. Doesn't Jesus refer to you Christians as lost sheep?

Think what you want. As long as you are happy. But don't try telling me that I am going to "Hell" because I am not Christian. Why because your book says so? Because some other man told you it's the truth? So foolish. Give yourself a little respect and think for yourself. A good God wouldn't act like the Christian God. A good God wouldn't have the rules that Christians follow. You are following the laws that man set forth a couple thousand years ago. You are following the word of man, not the word of God.

I hope for your sake... That you will learn this one day.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -