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Can, and does God change?

GreatestIam
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4/28/2011 11:52:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Can, and does God change?

Many seem to think that when scripture says that God is immortal and perfect, it means that God never changes his mind on anything and that his perfection is complete.
They use the following basic definition.
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Scripture seems to contradict this definition. It shows a N T Jesus that must learn and an O T God who changes thanks to repenting.

In the real world, all things seem to evolve.

Is God a never changing stagnant pool of information or does he evolve the same as all other life?

If he was perfect and complete for millennia in the beginning, why would he suddenly feel a new urge to create and self glorify himself with the love of insignificant creations?

Where did his needs for adoration, belief, and obedience from, what to him, would be less than what an amoeba is to us?

Further, if his intent was to create many followers, why does scripture show more failed creations than successful ones?

Regards
DL
Ore_Ele
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4/28/2011 12:28:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
some may argue that to change one's mind means that you go from opinion A to opinion B, and that (usually) opinion B is superior to opinion A (thus, why you changed your opinion). If opinion B is superior, that means that opinion A is imperfect. And if God held an imperfect opinion at some time, then he must not have been perfect.

However, I argue that what was "perfect" at time A is not the same that is "perfect" at time B. So that changing opinions as time changes is needed to stay "perfect."

You also bump into the issue that what one person believes is "perfect" is not what another person believes is "perfect," so "perfect" is not objective. If it is not objective, which subjective view of "perfect" is God falling under? And since he falls under that view of "perfect" it may not be our own view of "perfect" and so he may not seem perfect to any particular individual.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
PARADIGM_L0ST
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4/28/2011 12:51:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think it's fairly incontrovertible that the God of the OT and the God of the NT are either not the same God, or God changed.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
GeoLaureate8
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4/28/2011 1:08:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
No. God is immutable.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
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"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
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Contradiction
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4/28/2011 1:12:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yes, God can change. But his change is neutral (Ie: like a chameleon changing colors).

He changes in his knowledge of tensed facts. For example, right now God knows that "It is currently 2:12." A minute from now, he will know that "It is currently 2:13."
baggins
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4/28/2011 1:16:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I am not sure we can apply concept of time to God. I think time is something which we human being experience.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
GeoLaureate8
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4/28/2011 1:19:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 1:12:32 PM, Contradiction wrote:
Yes, God can change. But his change is neutral (Ie: like a chameleon changing colors).

He changes in his knowledge of tensed facts. For example, right now God knows that "It is currently 2:12." A minute from now, he will know that "It is currently 2:13."

Actually that's one of the things God CANT know. If God is timeless and exists outside the timeline, he can't possibly know what time it is because he doesn't experience life as we do inside the timeline.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Contradiction
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4/28/2011 1:23:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Well, I don't view God as timeless to begin with. But even if he is, I don't see why God has to be in time to know what time is it. Omniscience is defined as knowledge of all true propositions. So if the statement "It is currently 2:23" is true, then God must know it. He doesn't have to be in the universe to know truths of this world.
GeoLaureate8
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4/28/2011 1:44:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 1:23:49 PM, Contradiction wrote:
Well, I don't view God as timeless to begin with. But even if he is, I don't see why God has to be in time to know what time is it. Omniscience is defined as knowledge of all true propositions. So if the statement "It is currently 2:23" is true, then God must know it. He doesn't have to be in the universe to know truths of this world.

Perhaps my wording mislead you. This is not the point. If God can tell what time it is, then that means who too experiences a past a present and a future and exists only at the second of time that the humans are currently experiencing.

See, if God simultaneously exists in the past present and future, existing at every point in time, how can he say what time it is?

This is a fact that we learned in Philosophy of Religion. If God is timeless then he can't know what time it is.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
baggins
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4/28/2011 1:46:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 1:23:49 PM, Contradiction wrote:
Well, I don't view God as timeless to begin with. But even if he is, I don't see why God has to be in time to know what time is it. Omniscience is defined as knowledge of all true propositions. So if the statement "It is currently 2:23" is true, then God must know it. He doesn't have to be in the universe to know truths of this world.

I am not sure whether God is timeless. This is just my current opinion...

God knows that now it is 12:13 AM and everything in the world at this moment.
God knows everything one hour ago.
God knows everything - as it will be one hour later.

Only I think that it is unlikely that God will attach any special importance to 'now'. Now, earlier and later are just concepts for us.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
baggins
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4/28/2011 1:49:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Moreover - I am OK in physics. And with all the things that happen to 'time' in modern physics, I am much more comfortable considering 'time' as just another creation of God.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
GreatestIam
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4/28/2011 2:50:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 12:28:24 PM, OreEle wrote:
some may argue that to change one's mind means that you go from opinion A to opinion B, and that (usually) opinion B is superior to opinion A (thus, why you changed your opinion). If opinion B is superior, that means that opinion A is imperfect. And if God held an imperfect opinion at some time, then he must not have been perfect.

However, I argue that what was "perfect" at time A is not the same that is "perfect" at time B. So that changing opinions as time changes is needed to stay "perfect."

You also bump into the issue that what one person believes is "perfect" is not what another person believes is "perfect," so "perfect" is not objective. If it is not objective, which subjective view of "perfect" is God falling under? And since he falls under that view of "perfect" it may not be our own view of "perfect" and so he may not seem perfect to any particular individual.

Scripture says we are in his image and can be as Gods. A & E did just that. His idea of perfection and ours would be quite close then would they not be?

Is the Bible wrong then when it says that God does not change?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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4/28/2011 2:54:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 12:51:26 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I think it's fairly incontrovertible that the God of the OT and the God of the NT are either not the same God, or God changed.

I to see two different personalities.

I have rejected the genocidal one. Should I consider Jesus as God or should I get away from such a by-polar sick puppy?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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4/28/2011 2:59:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 1:12:32 PM, Contradiction wrote:
Yes, God can change. But his change is neutral (Ie: like a chameleon changing colors).

He changes in his knowledge of tensed facts. For example, right now God knows that "It is currently 2:12." A minute from now, he will know that "It is currently 2:13."

He does not change his moral position then?

O T God and N T Jesus have the same moral position on things?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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4/28/2011 3:01:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 1:16:41 PM, baggins wrote:
I am not sure we can apply concept of time to God. I think time is something which we human being experience.

Did Jesus not experience time and is he not God?
God seemed to know what a day was when he made the 7th day holy.

Regards
DL
popculturepooka
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4/28/2011 7:25:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 1:44:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/28/2011 1:23:49 PM, Contradiction wrote:
Well, I don't view God as timeless to begin with. But even if he is, I don't see why God has to be in time to know what time is it. Omniscience is defined as knowledge of all true propositions. So if the statement "It

See, if God simult

This is a fact that we learned in Philosophy of Religion. If God is timeless then he can't know what time it is.

If this was taught to you as fact then your PoR teacher needs to be fired. If not for the least reason because there aren't really settled facts in contentious metaphysical issues.
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Grape
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4/28/2011 7:41:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't consider the tensed statement issue to be a serious threat to Theism. Special relativity deals with this issue. If God cannot know what time it is he can't know where anything is located either because there is no difference.
joneszj
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4/28/2011 7:49:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Notes and clips I have been taking on a book called The Living God by Thomas C Oden

In regards to the whole time topic:

2 Eternity
That which is eternal is without beginning, without ending, and with respect to divine purpose, without change.
2 Pet. 3:8 Psalm 102:27 Rev 4:8
Time is the valued gift of the eternal one who "made the ages" (Heb. 1:2, kjv). All moments of time's succession unfold in eternal simultaneity in the presence of the maker of time. God enjoys two relations to time: (1) as giver of time, the divine essence is in itself absolutely independent of time permitting time as wholly contingent upon the divine will; yet (2) this same eternal One chooses also to create the temporal world and to enter into relationships with creatures, freely wills to participate in time, and orders and guides the temporal process, not as if it were necessary to God's essential being, but as contingent upon the divine giving
Brilliantly, the classical exegetes taught that the creation of time is analogous to the incarnation in this way: The Father inhabits time, just as the Son inhabits human flesh

---------
As for the 'difference' between the OT and the NT God there is none. He is the same God. YHWH pretty much puts that to sense. I suppose your differentiating because of the lack of apparent anger and wrath mentioned in the NT? One, read Revelation, 2 Christ was the propitiation, 3 The crucifixion was orchestrated by the Father, 4 He killed instantly the couple who lied to an apostle (forgot the names its in Acts) 5 read Jesus' teachings on hell. Point is God is wrathful, in Christ the mercy of God as with all the other attributes of God are is most perfectly displayed. OT and NT God is the same.

Hope that helps.
GreatestIam
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4/29/2011 7:54:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 7:49:08 PM, joneszj wrote:
. OT and NT God is the same.

Hope that helps.

So you see the O T genocidal God who kills men, women and innocent children and babies, as the same N T God who will not even stone a prostitute. O K.

What made him change attitude?

Regards
DL
joneszj
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4/29/2011 8:58:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/29/2011 7:54:17 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 4/28/2011 7:49:08 PM, joneszj wrote:
. OT and NT God is the same.

Hope that helps.

So you see the O T genocidal God who kills men, women and innocent children and babies, as the same N T God who will not even stone a prostitute. O K.

What made him change attitude?



Regards
DL

Sorry I can't view the youtube video (behind a firewall)

Well the first thing I would say is that God is not a robot- meaning He has a will and decides and moves how it pleases Him. It would be miss charactorizing if you said God should react the same in every given moment for God has mercy on who He will and He hardens whom He wills (Romans 9:18 quoted from the OT). God was merciful in the OT was well as the NT- Abraham married his half sister, Moses was a murderer, David an adulterer etc. yet God did not strike them down. God was wrathful in the OT just as He is in the NT - Just as God destroyed the world with water once He will again with fire. The word 'innocent' if meant as 'sinless' does not apply to man. Throughout scripture its said that man is evil from birth, even at conception, that mans heart is continously evil, etc. It paints a clear picture that man is not innocent. Men, women, children, and babies are all guilty yet it is a mercy that we breath at any given moment. The point of not stoning the prostitute was God bestowing mercy and revealing most pointedly that the ones wanting to cast the stone were no less guilty the the prostitue of their own sin. Effectually teaching not to sin because of sin via thinking anyone is better off then anyone else.

In the OT God was making Himself known through Israel. He preserved Israel and destroyed what was a threat to the knowledge of Himself (by conqouring other nations or letting Israel be conqoured). Christ came and died and was raised for the salvation of His people (as prophesied orchestrated by the Father). Through the disobedience of Israel the Gentiles were also grafted into the family God (that God had predestined before creation).

I guess to summarize:
1 God has mercy on whom He will and hardens whom He wills
2 Noone is 'innocent' of sin and deserves death
3 God was using Israel to reveal Himself but now does this through His son

This was kinda slopped together at once

Regards?
Z-man
GreatestIam
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4/29/2011 6:20:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/29/2011 8:58:30 AM, joneszj wrote:

This was kinda slopped together at once

Regards?
Z-man

"children, and babies are all guilty "

This is all I would have had to hear to know that you hold this position with your God-----------

http://i845.photobucket.com...

Regards
DL
Ore_Ele
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4/29/2011 6:38:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 2:50:33 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 4/28/2011 12:28:24 PM, OreEle wrote:
some may argue that to change one's mind means that you go from opinion A to opinion B, and that (usually) opinion B is superior to opinion A (thus, why you changed your opinion). If opinion B is superior, that means that opinion A is imperfect. And if God held an imperfect opinion at some time, then he must not have been perfect.

However, I argue that what was "perfect" at time A is not the same that is "perfect" at time B. So that changing opinions as time changes is needed to stay "perfect."

You also bump into the issue that what one person believes is "perfect" is not what another person believes is "perfect," so "perfect" is not objective. If it is not objective, which subjective view of "perfect" is God falling under? And since he falls under that view of "perfect" it may not be our own view of "perfect" and so he may not seem perfect to any particular individual.

Scripture says we are in his image and can be as Gods. A & E did just that. His idea of perfection and ours would be quite close then would they not be?

Since I have not personally met God, I can't say if we truely are in his image or not. But I know that the view of "perfection" varies greatly from person to person. So for us all to be in God's image, God would have to be everything and nothing, and everything inbetween (in which case, change is not posible).


Is the Bible wrong then when it says that God does not change?

Probably, the Bible was, after all, written by humans, who can be mistaken and wrong.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
joneszj
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4/29/2011 10:29:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/29/2011 6:20:39 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 4/29/2011 8:58:30 AM, joneszj wrote:

This was kinda slopped together at once

Regards?
Z-man

"children, and babies are all guilty "

This is all I would have had to hear to know that you hold this position with your God-----------

http://i845.photobucket.com...

Regards
DL

Well now I know your simply trolling.... Learn some decent theology from tried and tested church history. The popcorn theology in America is quite honestly paper thin.
GreatestIam
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4/30/2011 9:54:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/29/2011 6:38:42 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/28/2011 2:50:33 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 4/28/2011 12:28:24 PM, OreEle wrote:
some may argue that to change one's mind means that you go from opinion A to opinion B, and that (usually) opinion B is superior to opinion A (thus, why you changed your opinion). If opinion B is superior, that means that opinion A is imperfect. And if God held an imperfect opinion at some time, then he must not have been perfect.

However, I argue that what was "perfect" at time A is not the same that is "perfect" at time B. So that changing opinions as time changes is needed to stay "perfect."

You also bump into the issue that what one person believes is "perfect" is not what another person believes is "perfect," so "perfect" is not objective. If it is not objective, which subjective view of "perfect" is God falling under? And since he falls under that view of "perfect" it may not be our own view of "perfect" and so he may not seem perfect to any particular individual.

Scripture says we are in his image and can be as Gods. A & E did just that. His idea of perfection and ours would be quite close then would they not be?

Since I have not personally met God, I can't say if we truely are in his image or not. But I know that the view of "perfection" varies greatly from person to person. So for us all to be in God's image, God would have to be everything and nothing, and everything inbetween (in which case, change is not posible).


Is the Bible wrong then when it says that God does not change?

Probably, the Bible was, after all, written by humans, who can be mistaken and wrong.

Then we are on the same page.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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4/30/2011 9:57:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/29/2011 10:29:02 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 4/29/2011 6:20:39 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 4/29/2011 8:58:30 AM, joneszj wrote:

This was kinda slopped together at once

Regards?
Z-man

"children, and babies are all guilty "

This is all I would have had to hear to know that you hold this position with your God-----------

http://i845.photobucket.com...

Regards
DL

Well now I know your simply trolling.... Learn some decent theology from tried and tested church history. The popcorn theology in America is quite honestly paper thin.

And I know that if you can say "children, and babies are all guilty " then I can discard your garbage judgment.

Go away. I do not suffer fools well.

Regards
DL
Cliff.Stamp
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4/30/2011 10:19:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 7:25:48 PM, popculturepooka wrote:

If this was taught to you as fact then your PoR teacher needs to be fired. If not for the least reason because there aren't really settled facts in contentious metaphysical issues.

PCP, is it actually an issue in contention that a being who exists outside of what we regard as time is totally ignorant of it?

I can not imagine anyone sensible making that argument. That would be like arguing that we who exist in space-time could have no knowledge of the singularity of a black hole (we are outside of its paradigm).

If you looked at the universe of what-is from the perspective of the singularity there is no space time, but we, who exist outside of the viewpoint of the black hole can clearly have knowledge of it.

This argument only works in reverse, we could not claim to have all knowledge of something which exists outside of our paradigm just as the black hole can not have knowledge of all of space time as that is outside of it.

But trying to limit it the other way is just stoopid. Are there actual credible people who advocate that position.
Cliff.Stamp
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4/30/2011 10:22:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 11:52:40 AM, GreatestIam wrote:

If he was perfect and complete for millennia in the beginning, why would he suddenly feel a new urge to create and self glorify himself with the love of insignificant creations?

Are you asking why did God take so long to create man after the universe started or why did God wait so long to start the universe?
baggins
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5/1/2011 7:06:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Initially I thought that this thread will lead to some interesting discussions - and maybe even a few debates. But I think it has been spoiled by bible trashers.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
CosmicAlfonzo
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5/1/2011 7:08:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/1/2011 7:06:22 AM, baggins wrote:
Initially I thought that this thread will lead to some interesting discussions - and maybe even a few debates. But I think it has been spoiled by bible trashers.

Bible trashers tend to fairly ignorant about the bible.

Their trashing is only a reaction to biblical literalists who are also fundamentally ignorant about the bible.
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