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- The new religion : Science -

Lionheart
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4/28/2011 2:26:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Science just seems to be another religion. One of the newer religions. One that many people follow. One that many people of other religions adopt some of the information and fuse it with their other religious beliefs.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Science is taught to explain life and everything around us. Now it seems that some are even trying to use science to prove the existence of God or something similar.

Science involves itself with and tries to explain a lot of things... Other religions have tried to get involved with and explain a lot of the same things. It's just the way that science goes about doing it that is different from other religions, radically different.

Maybe science is the religion that will finally bring all intelligent beings together under one religion.

Maybe it is the religion that can truly explain life and everything around us.

Maybe one day.... Science will fuse faith with logic.

Maybe one day.... Science will let us understand God.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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4/28/2011 2:31:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 2:26:03 PM, Lionheart wrote:
Science involves itself with and tries to explain a lot of things... Other religions have tried to get involved with and explain a lot of the same things. It's just the way that science goes about doing it that is different from other religions, radically different.

i.e. Science actually succeeds.
reddj2
Posts: 239
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4/28/2011 2:33:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 2:31:23 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 4/28/2011 2:26:03 PM, Lionheart wrote:
Science involves itself with and tries to explain a lot of things... Other religions have tried to get involved with and explain a lot of the same things. It's just the way that science goes about doing it that is different from other religions, radically different.

i.e. Science actually succeeds.
Nice
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
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4/28/2011 2:33:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It seems to me that people who claim that science is a religion are actually upset with the success of science. To put it simply, science works.

It would be almost humerus if it weren't so tragic that what you are essentially trying to say is that 'science is as bad as religion', which seems wrong-headed to me.
Lionheart
Posts: 520
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4/28/2011 2:50:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"It seems to me that people who claim that science is a religion are actually upset with the success of science. To put it simply, science works.

It would be almost humerus if it weren't so tragic that what you are essentially trying to say is that 'science is as bad as religion', which seems wrong-headed to me."


I never implied any such thing, that "Science is as bad as religion". You assume too much. On the contrary, I think science may be the greatest religion of all time!

I mean, why did people start developing religion anyway... So they could explain or interpret things that they did not understand.

Well, Science does this with more efficiency than any religion on the planet.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
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4/28/2011 2:56:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 2:50:30 PM, Lionheart wrote:
"It seems to me that people who claim that science is a religion are actually upset with the success of science. To put it simply, science works.

It would be almost humerus if it weren't so tragic that what you are essentially trying to say is that 'science is as bad as religion', which seems wrong-headed to me."


I never implied any such thing, that "Science is as bad as religion". You assume too much. On the contrary, I think science may be the greatest religion of all time!

I mean, why did people start developing religion anyway... So they could explain or interpret things that they did not understand.

Well, Science does this with more efficiency than any religion on the planet.

Um...okay...
Lionheart
Posts: 520
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4/28/2011 3:27:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
One main difference between science and other religions is this...

Science has people that believe in it's information about life and the universe around us. This is the same as other religions. But, Science does not have a church

Any scientific theory that is out there is based on variables, variables which help you either believe or not believe in the information given.

- Example -

Evolution Theory. Creation Theory. Two different theories that are adopted by different religions.

All science needs is a church. The Church of Science. I would go to church if it involved listening to a scientist who teaches me more about science and how I can use it in this way or that to influence my life. I think many people would go to a church that was like that.

Maybe I should start a new religion that is based completely off of science. This way it could be infused with all the knowledge of science, but be based on a set criteria. Criteria that could evolve with time as science does.

Does this sound like an interesting idea to anyone?

I would like to hear some thoughts on this.

Good ideas on things to include if someone were to form a new religion with it's foundation being science.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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4/28/2011 3:43:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Understanding your own epistemological limitations, and questioning your own assumptions is what science is really about.

When science is unquestioned, it becomes like a religion. When science is experienced, it is like a spiritual journey.

This is not to be mistaken for the pseudo-science that New Agers and other schmucks try to pass off as science in order to give their belief some semblance of credibility.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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4/28/2011 3:54:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 3:27:09 PM, Lionheart wrote:

All science needs is a church. The Church of Science. I would go to church if it involved listening to a scientist who teaches me more about science and how I can use it in this way or that to influence my life.

University.
Cliff.Stamp
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4/28/2011 3:57:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 2:26:03 PM, Lionheart wrote:

Maybe one day.... Science will fuse faith with logic.

Maybe one day.... Science will let us understand God.

If you are talking about religious faith it is the opposite of science.

Similar, science can not speak about God that is like asking Geography to help you understand Painting. Science is concerned about natural explanations, God is supernatural.
Lionheart
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4/28/2011 4:10:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Things that we once thought supernatural, science now explains. In the future, God could be put into this category.

And I am talking about blending science with Philosophical logic. A religion that evolves as it's theories or beliefs evolve.

I think it could be a great thing. A revolutionary way to look at a religion. There are plenty of religions without a definitive understanding or explanation of God. Followers would be left to believe what they want, but their beliefs would be concluded from science and logic. This is far more efficient than just believing some stories that are written down in a book.

A religion formed in this way would be far more efficient in helping people understand life and the universe, in helping them form their beliefs.

Religion is a group that teaches something, something that is accepted by all who follow it.

Pure faith is the backbone of most religions.

Science and logic would be the backbone of this religion, instead of pure faith.

If you open up your mind to what religion can be, then you might see how great this religion could be.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/28/2011 4:47:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 2:33:56 PM, Meatros wrote:
It seems to me that people who claim that science is a religion are actually upset with the success of science. To put it simply, science works.

It would be almost humerus if it weren't so tragic that what you are essentially trying to say is that 'science is as bad as religion', which seems wrong-headed to me.

Strawman. You didn't even read the OP. He was praising science.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
CosmicAlfonzo
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4/28/2011 4:55:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 4:10:57 PM, Lionheart wrote:
Things that we once thought supernatural, science now explains. In the future, God could be put into this category.

And I am talking about blending science with Philosophical logic. A religion that evolves as it's theories or beliefs evolve.

I think it could be a great thing. A revolutionary way to look at a religion. There are plenty of religions without a definitive understanding or explanation of God. Followers would be left to believe what they want, but their beliefs would be concluded from science and logic. This is far more efficient than just believing some stories that are written down in a book.

A religion formed in this way would be far more efficient in helping people understand life and the universe, in helping them form their beliefs.

Religion is a group that teaches something, something that is accepted by all who follow it.

Pure faith is the backbone of most religions.

Science and logic would be the backbone of this religion, instead of pure faith.

If you open up your mind to what religion can be, then you might see how great this religion could be.

I've already done this.

It's called "Cosmic Alfonzoism"

Unfortunately, it is very confusing to most people, because it is very metaphorical. I'll often times explain very natural and scientific concepts with spiritual language.

Certain concepts, even when described lucidly are nearly impossible for people to grasp. Cosmic Alfonzoism can not be understood unless one understands the symbolic nature of their own understanding.

You must understand meaning rather than words. You must understand what a symbol represents rather than the symbol itself. You must be able to see through semantics, and get to the depth of a statement.

If you can do these things, you are already mostly already there. To find God, you must come forward with the mind of a child. Forget everything you think you know about God, the supernatural, etc. To do this, you have to thoroughly examine your assumptions, and get to the root of things. It is an entirely scientific process.

Finding God is a matter of awareness. God is not what most people think it is. The God that exists as actuality is however.. The only thing that can be eternal. It is the very thing that most religions are attempting to describe, but because their meanings have been lost, they paint the picture of a false god in the minds of the people.

The god of theism is actually and very truly the real Satan. Not because of the things that it does, but because this god is false. It is a lie. It is something that only exists in the minds of those who believe it. It is not the eternal god.

Of course, my use of the term "God" is very misleading, if only because people have preconceptions about it.

God is Actuality.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Lionheart
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4/28/2011 5:04:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Interesting view.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
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4/28/2011 6:01:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 4:47:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Strawman. You didn't even read the OP. He was praising science.

Well... Yes and no. I read the OP, but I leaped to a straw man conclusion. I had heard something similar several times before (although *not praising science*) and then made the "link". So yes, I admit it turned out to be a straw man. I misunderstood the OP.

That said, I'm a bit puzzled as to how to take it. I don't view science the way the OP does.
Cliff.Stamp
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4/28/2011 6:34:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 4:10:57 PM, Lionheart wrote:

And I am talking about blending science with Philosophical logic. A religion that evolves as it's theories or beliefs evolve.

Science and Philosophy are two very different things, you would not want to blend them together to try to make "more". It would be like putting eggs in your sneakers because you like eggs and you like running.

I would suggest spending some time in a lab and trying to get a feel for what it is that a scientist does and then attend some lectures on philosophy and theology and get an understanding for what they do.

It would be obvious then than blending them simply can not work, not that philosophy is actually a meta-position above science, there is a philosophy of science even which is a study of the how and why of science;s claim of knowledge.

Science and logic would be the backbone of this religion, instead of pure faith.

Logic is part of science already, you can not perform science without logic. Note there are lots of theists who are scientists, you can have religion and science in your life at the same time. In fact the vast majority of scientists are theists simply because the vast majority of everyone is a theist.
Lionheart
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4/28/2011 7:57:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Science and Philosophy can coexist together, and in fact they have for quite some time.

Science (from Latin: scientia meaning "knowledge") is an enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the world. An older and closely related meaning still in use today is that of Aristotle, for whom scientific knowledge was a body of reliable knowledge that can be logically and rationally explained.

Since classical antiquity science as a type of knowledge was closely linked to philosophy. In the early modern era the two words, "science" and "philosophy", were sometimes used interchangeably in the English language. By the 17th century, "natural philosophy" (which is today called "natural science") had begun to be considered separately from "philosophy" in general. However, "science" continued to be used in a broad sense denoting reliable knowledge about a topic, in the same way it is still used in modern terms such as library science or political science.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. It is distinguished from other ways of addressing such problems by its critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on rational argument. The word "philosophy" comes from the Greek φιλοσοφία (philosophia), which literally means "love of wisdom".

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Considering the above information... Science and Philosophy compliment each other quite well. Science can test what Philosophy presents and Philosophy can interpret what Science discovers.

I think a religion formed in this way would be quite appealing to a lot of people. I'm sure theists would be strong supporters. As well as a lot of other people from other religions. It would still be your choice on if you believe in God or not. But the foundation of the religion would be Science and Philosophy.

I know it is a hard concept to follow for some people on here, but if you try, you might think of some ways in which it could work quite well.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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4/28/2011 8:14:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Of course they co-exist, there are people who are all of them, Thomas Khun for example was a Physicist who also contributed to he Philosophy of Science, or Michael Polanyi who was a Christian, Chemist, Mathematician, and Philosopher. My only point is that these are distinct disciplines, they all answer specific questions. What are you trying to produce by mashing them all togetherÉ
Lionheart
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4/28/2011 9:36:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm talking about fusing the elements of science and philosophy together in forming a new religion.

Instead of having the Bible, Vedas, Quran, etc.... To teach you about life and the universe.

You would have books on Quantum Physics, Life science, Sociology, Psychology, Philosophy, etc.

People already have all of these things now. But they need to be brought together in a systematic way that can be presented as a religion.

I will mentally work on this and form an example of how this could be accomplished efficiently. Of course it would have a basic moral code. Morality is natural for most people. It does not need to be forced through a fear of God. Most people will not object to having a basic moral code if this religion were to ever to become real.

Does no one see where I'm going with this? Is nobody else even slightly interested with the idea of such a religion. I was hoping to attract some great thinkers to brainstorm and put forth some great ideas.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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4/28/2011 10:20:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/28/2011 9:36:31 PM, Lionheart wrote:

Of course it would have a basic moral code. Morality is natural for most people. It does not need to be forced through a fear of God. Most people will not object to having a basic moral code if this religion were to ever to become real.

There is already much work on the science behind morality, i.e., evolutionary morality which predicates that which is moral is simply that which makes it more likely for you to reproduce.
rogue
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4/28/2011 10:31:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Do not group science in with religions. It is the opposite of religion. Instead of faith and trying to reach perfection, science experiments, progresses, changes, uses logic and reason to find answers and best ways of doing things.
Lionheart
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4/29/2011 1:30:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
"Instead of faith and trying to reach perfection, science experiments, progresses, changes, uses logic and reason to find answers and best ways of doing things."

You say religion is faith and trying to reach perfection... But what is your version of perfection? You are trying to be perfect? Really?

Because if perfection were ever to really exist... If that is your religious goal...

Then using logic and reason to find answers and the best way of doing things, is probably the best way to get there.

You almost completely prove my point. Thank you for that.

I can still believe in God, while also using science and philosophy as the main building blocks towards learning about life and the universe. As a matter of fact, I think it is the perfect combination.

The only faith you need is to have faith that God exists... Beyond that, science and philosophy take the bull by the horns when trying to learn about life and the universe.

Religion has very little to offer in comparison, except maybe some epic stories.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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4/29/2011 3:37:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Honestly, this is a bad idea.

It has been done before.

Buddhism.

Somehow even that managed to get fvcked up over the centuries.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Lionheart
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4/29/2011 2:19:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
To CA -What I am talking about is pretty different from Buddhism my friend. If you open up your mind and think about what I am saying, you might find some good ideas on how or what this religion could be.

I'm sorry that nobody can understand my vision correctly... It must be the fault of my presentation. I apologize for not presenting my idea efficiently. For those who just do not like the idea for their own personal reasons, that's ok, I respect your opinion.

I would really like to hear from some people who are intrigued by the idea. Maybe I should have posted this in the Science or Philosophy section.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
Lionheart
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4/29/2011 4:05:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Both Evolution Theory and Creation Theory can co-exist as being the truth. Here is an example of how religion and science can coexist in harmony.

Creation-Evolution Theory or Theistic Evolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

God created life with the ability to evolve and take on a higher quality through time, with the help of free will.

This is what an intelligent creator would naturally do. Think of the closest thing human's have in comparison as being a creator of life. Humans have created AI or artificial intelligence. But the most intelligent AI programs are created to evolve into a higher quality system. As time goes by and the AI uses it's freedom to learn from the world around it (free will), it evolves and becomes more intelligent and gains quality.

If God did create life, He would have created life to evolve.

I would like to hear your thoughts.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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4/29/2011 4:22:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Please stop thinking science is anything like religion. It insults everyone who chooses rationality over faith. Also, theistic evolution is a ridiculous idea.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
GeoLaureate8
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4/29/2011 4:25:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/29/2011 2:19:54 PM, Lionheart wrote:
To CA -What I am talking about is pretty different from Buddhism my friend.

Are you sure? Buddhism uses the scientific method combined with philosophy which sounds pretty close to what you posit.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
socialpinko
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4/29/2011 4:52:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/29/2011 4:40:01 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 4/29/2011 4:22:57 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Also, theistic evolution is a ridiculous idea.

You should debate that.

with who?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
CosmicAlfonzo
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4/29/2011 5:31:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/29/2011 2:19:54 PM, Lionheart wrote:
To CA -What I am talking about is pretty different from Buddhism my friend. If you open up your mind and think about what I am saying, you might find some good ideas on how or what this religion could be.


Don't get pretentiousness with me. I'm the king of feigning pretentiousness. Instead of telling me to open my mind like some condescending twat, open your mind to the possibility that this is a bad idea, and quit being presumptious about the reasons why people are rejecting your idea.

I'm sorry that nobody can understand my vision correctly... It must be the fault of my presentation. I apologize for not presenting my idea efficiently. For those who just do not like the idea for their own personal reasons, that's ok, I respect your opinion.

I would really like to hear from some people who are intrigued by the idea. Maybe I should have posted this in the Science or Philosophy section.

Nah, this section is fine. If you want to be better understood, define the terms you are using. Everyone has a different understanding of the word we use in conversation, so establishing mutual understanding is a tricky thing.

Both Evolution Theory and Creation Theory can co-exist as being the truth. Here is an example of how religion and science can coexist in harmony.

Creation-Evolution Theory or Theistic Evolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

God created life with the ability to evolve and take on a higher quality through time, with the help of free will.


These things fall outside the realm of science. If you want a religion that lies and tells you that it is backed by science, check the New Age movement. A truly worthwhile religion based on science would have a firm understanding of our epistemological limitations, and avoid bullsh!tting.

This is what an intelligent creator would naturally do. Think of the closest thing human's have in comparison as being a creator of life. Humans have created AI or artificial intelligence. But the most intelligent AI programs are created to evolve into a higher quality system. As time goes by and the AI uses it's freedom to learn from the world around it (free will), it evolves and becomes more intelligent and gains quality.


The A.I. bit will possibly bring along the rise of Techno Allah, which is inevitable given that mankind does not destroy itself. This is a prophecy of Cosmic Alfonzoism. Both prophets and prophecies are easily misunderstood if you still have preconceptions that society has planted in your head about what these words really mean.

If God did create life, He would have created life to evolve.

I would like to hear your thoughts.

My thoughts are that I've already done this in Cosmic Alfonzoism, which itself, like all religions is a translation of "true islam".. Something which can not be communicated effectively between people.

The optimal religion leads people to "true Islam", and then fades into obscurity before it becomes corrupted by those who do not understand over time. "True Islam" can not be corrupted, only the understandings of it can be.

True Islam is not something that comes from a holy book. Do not mistake it for the Islam from those who worship the Koran as an idol. True Islam in itself is just a name. True Islam is not a religion, it is a communication with God.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp