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Are we living in God's kingdom, or Satan‘s?

GreatestIam
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5/7/2011 3:33:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Are we living in God's kingdom, or Satan‘s?

What did Jesus mean when He said "The Kingdom of God is at hand?

Mat 4;17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus seems to be saying that God's kingdom was right there at that point in time and that would also mean that it is still here and now.

If God began by being master and owner of all that is, and he spans or owns the whole of creation, and scripture is right that says he does not change, then logic says that we are now in is God's kingdom and we never left it.

Ps 139 8
If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Romans 12:21
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

These also seem to confirm that God is everywhere, even in hell, where he is working at saving lost souls and that would make the following quote also true.

2 Peter 3;9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Obviously, nothing and no one can thwart God's will. He always gets what he wills even if at times we cannot understand how he does it. All souls are therefore saved and none perish.

Now I know some will say that there cannot be anything evil in God's kingdom. Consider that Satan was in heaven before God made him the prince of this world. Therefore, there can definitely be evil in God's kingdom. In fact, the myths of Eden and Job both show God consorting with Satan. In Eden, he allows Satan access to A & E and in Job, to Job.

If hell and earth are no longer in God's kingdom, then that would mean that God lost some of his original holdings/kingdom, and I cannot see any good reason for him to change from full ownership of what was, to partial ownership of what is.

Are we living in God's kingdom, or Satan‘s?

Regards
DL
Cliff.Stamp
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5/7/2011 5:11:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/7/2011 3:33:31 PM, GreatestIam wrote:

What did Jesus mean when He said "The Kingdom of God is at hand?

There are a number of interpretations argued by various theologians. Two common ones are that it refers to an actual kingdom such as the kingdom of Spain, another would be that it refers to the kingdom inside of us when we allow witness.
CosmicAlfonzo
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5/7/2011 5:27:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Heaven is a state of mind. It is not something that is limited to Christianity.

In fact, orthodox understandings of Christ's teachings seem to point people in the direction of hell.

Hell is a state of mind where one is drowning in a swirling cesspool of their own steaming desires.

Heaven is a state of mind that has managed to find contentment, and even happiness without relying on external forces.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
GreatestIam
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5/7/2011 5:38:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/7/2011 5:11:46 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 5/7/2011 3:33:31 PM, GreatestIam wrote:


What did Jesus mean when He said "The Kingdom of God is at hand?

There are a number of interpretations argued by various theologians. Two common ones are that it refers to an actual kingdom such as the kingdom of Spain, another would be that it refers to the kingdom inside of us when we allow witness.

So God's kingdom is not everywhere anymore?

Why did God reward Satan by making him the ruler here?
Rather nice of him to give such a reward. Right?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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5/7/2011 5:42:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/7/2011 5:27:31 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Heaven is a state of mind. It is not something that is limited to Christianity.

In fact, orthodox understandings of Christ's teachings seem to point people in the direction of hell.

Hell is a state of mind where one is drowning in a swirling cesspool of their own steaming desires.

How do I get my desires to steam?
I do not want to rely on Viagra.
How do I produce a bit of this hell in my mind?

Regards
DL
CosmicAlfonzo
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5/7/2011 6:31:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/7/2011 5:42:23 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/7/2011 5:27:31 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Heaven is a state of mind. It is not something that is limited to Christianity.

In fact, orthodox understandings of Christ's teachings seem to point people in the direction of hell.

Hell is a state of mind where one is drowning in a swirling cesspool of their own steaming desires.

How do I get my desires to steam?
I do not want to rely on Viagra.
How do I produce a bit of this hell in my mind?

Regards
DL

You can steam cook your desires with the coals of obsession. You leave more of the nutrients in when you steam cook your desires as opposed to boiling, but you don't really know what a desire is until you examine it raw, right on the vine.

Viagra might get you hard, but it isn't going to guarantee that you are aroused. You want to be aroused. I would suggest the use of various recreational DEVICES, more elaborate foreplay, or both.

Human beings naturally slump into a mental state of hell. We are born in hell. Hell is not fun, though sometimes it spawns some interesting poetry. It is a mental illness that is caused by a fundamentally ignorant mind set. You can't reach heaven by sitting around, you've actually got to get up and walk a bit. It's a long journey, and once you reach the destination, you get to party with God for a little bit. Heaven is a pretty big place. It's hard to get bored exploring it. Heaven is like a big city paved with gold, where there is something interesting to do on every corner, every alleyway, and in the back seat of every car. It's the land of milk and honey, the promised land if there ever was one.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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5/7/2011 7:46:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/7/2011 5:38:40 PM, GreatestIam wrote:

So God's kingdom is not everywhere anymore?

There are various interpretations of the phrase, for some it represents a purity of being, to others an actual place which is pure, for others it represent that which is (everywhere).

Why did God reward Satan by making him the ruler here?

How do you consider it a reward to be cast out from heaven. Satan has influence on Earth, he does not rule it as in the people here obey his laws.

An interesting question is when did he fall as the answer to this generates the questions as to why God created people where Satan had influence or why did Satan fall to where God created people.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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5/7/2011 7:52:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/7/2011 3:33:31 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Are we living in God's kingdom, or Satan‘s?


It depends who the president of the USA is. If its a republican then we are in Gods kingdom, if its a democrat then we are living in Satans kingdom.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
GreatestIam
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5/7/2011 8:06:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/7/2011 7:46:27 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 5/7/2011 5:38:40 PM, GreatestIam wrote:

So God's kingdom is not everywhere anymore?

There are various interpretations of the phrase, for some it represents a purity of being, to others an actual place which is pure, for others it represent that which is (everywhere).

Why did God reward Satan by making him the ruler here?

How do you consider it a reward to be cast out from heaven. Satan has influence on Earth, he does not rule it as in the people here obey his laws.

An interesting question is when did he fall as the answer to this generates the questions as to why God created people where Satan had influence or why did Satan fall to where God created people.

I did sort of indicate that God put him exactly where he wanted him as shown in Job and Eden.

If Satan only has influence here and is not the prince of this world, then I guess that you do not believe that Jesus was ever tempted by Satan. Right?

Another good question might be ---WTF is God waiting for to carry out his sentence on Satan and send him to hell. Rumor has it that those there now are having too good a time without him.

Regards
DL
Lionheart
Posts: 520
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5/7/2011 8:42:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Another good question might be ---WTF is God waiting for to carry out his sentence on Satan and send him to hell. Rumor has it that those there now are having too good a time without him.


Hahaha... That was funny dude.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/9/2011 6:13:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/7/2011 3:33:31 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Are we living in God's kingdom, or Satan‘s?

What did Jesus mean when He said "The Kingdom of God is at hand?

Mat 4;17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus seems to be saying that God's kingdom was right there at that point in time and that would also mean that it is still here and now.

If God began by being master and owner of all that is, and he spans or owns the whole of creation, and scripture is right that says he does not change, then logic says that we are now in is God's kingdom and we never left it.

Ps 139 8
If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Romans 12:21
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

These also seem to confirm that God is everywhere, even in hell, where he is working at saving lost souls and that would make the following quote also true.

2 Peter 3;9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Obviously, nothing and no one can thwart God's will. He always gets what he wills even if at times we cannot understand how he does it. All souls are therefore saved and none perish.

Now I know some will say that there cannot be anything evil in God's kingdom. Consider that Satan was in heaven before God made him the prince of this world. Therefore, there can definitely be evil in God's kingdom. In fact, the myths of Eden and Job both show God consorting with Satan. In Eden, he allows Satan access to A & E and in Job, to Job.

If hell and earth are no longer in God's kingdom, then that would mean that God lost some of his original holdings/kingdom, and I cannot see any good reason for him to change from full ownership of what was, to partial ownership of what is.

Are we living in God's kingdom, or Satan‘s?

Regards
DL

Now, pay attention debate fans: GIam is arguing from 'If God and the Bible be true then perspective.. he, like SO many before him, is keen on slipping out of this context whenever things (like the Truth for instance) become a little close for comfort..

SO; the world is under the control of satan:

1 John 5:19
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.


ONLY Jesus Christ was sinless and ONLY He (at the cross) has defeated satan. Now, He ransomed Himself for His disciples:

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

John 18:8
Jesus answered, "I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go."


And so when we become a Christian through the disciples ministry..

John 17:20
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
we are..

Colossians 1:13
..rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,


If I'm talking to someone on the phone regarding an unpaid bill and I say I have their letter 'at hand' then I mean I have it close by, in front of me.. This is EXACTLY what Jesus means; the Kingdom of Heaven (Joy, Peace, Healing, Power, Wisdom etc) is AT hand, close by..
The Cross.. the Cross.
GreatestIam
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5/9/2011 12:49:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 6:13:47 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:


SO; the world is under the control of satan:

1 John 5:19
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.



Why would God place his childen under the control of Satan?
Rather like putting the fox in the neh hose. Right?
Unless Satan is a good guy. Is he?


ONLY Jesus Christ was sinless and ONLY He (at the cross) has defeated satan. Now, He ransomed Himself for His disciples:

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:


John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

This is good except in the case of Jesus/God, he himself is the one who created the reason for the laying down of his life. that make it all so self serving that the notion of sacrifice is annulled.

John 18:8
Jesus answered, "I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go."



The father is greater than I.
No one is good except God.


And so when we become a Christian through the disciples ministry..

John 17:20
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
we are..

Colossians 1:13
..rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,


If I'm talking to someone on the phone regarding an unpaid bill and I say I have their letter 'at hand' then I mean I have it close by, in front of me.. This is EXACTLY what Jesus means; the Kingdom of Heaven (Joy, Peace, Healing, Power, Wisdom etc) is AT hand, close by..

We both know that we can make scriptures say whatever we want to.
We can thump or we can reasonYour choice but if you choose thimping. We will not go long.

Do you not find it strange that God's justice includes deferring a sentence and allowing the perpetrator, Satan, to continue doing evil.

If Satan is God's enemy, why put the fox in the hen house. That is rather insane. Right?
Or do you put a loaded gun around your children?

Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
On earth as in heaven.

Should our human judges do the same as God and defer sentences for rapists and murderers and allow them to run around a bit before imposing their sentence?

If not, why not?
If it is good enough for God then it must be good enough for man.
It does not work does it?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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5/9/2011 12:51:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/7/2011 8:42:30 PM, Lionheart wrote:
Another good question might be ---WTF is God waiting for to carry out his sentence on Satan and send him to hell. Rumor has it that those there now are having too good a time without him.


Hahaha... That was funny dude.

Yes but it goes right to the base of the question.
I reposted it in a different form just above. We will see if our resident thumper will even attempt to answer it.

Regards
DL
Lionheart
Posts: 520
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5/9/2011 5:58:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have similar feelings on the subject... That is why I usually refer to hardcore Christians as being brainwashed. I have personally been involved with some people that have woken up from this kind of brainwashing. If anybody thinks that the True God is like the Christian God or the God of the bible, then that shows a lot about their character.

I will leave it at that for now. Either way, everyone is entitled to their own perspective and beliefs. I just don't agree with Christianity or the bible personally.

But, to each his own. Your truth is your truth.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/10/2011 4:32:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 12:49:04 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/9/2011 6:13:47 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:


SO; the world is under the control of satan:

1 John 5:19
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.



Why would God place his childen under the control of Satan?
Rather like putting the fox in the neh hose. Right?
Unless Satan is a good guy. Is he?


Man placed HIMSELF under the control of satan by taking his word over Gods; Adam effectively made Eve his god, by putting her before God.

Why put satan in the garden? (he wrote, anticipating GIam's next question) Because to do otherwise would not have given Adam any choice and so the whole thing would simply have been a puppet show.

ONLY Jesus Christ was sinless and ONLY He (at the cross) has defeated satan. Now, He ransomed Himself for His disciples:

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

'That sinneth' is the operative phrase here; Jesus Christ was and is without sin and so is NOT bound by the Law; the Law is for law-breakers.
Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

As above..
John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

This is good except in the case of Jesus/God, he himself is the one who created the reason for the laying down of his life. that make it all so self serving that the notion of sacrifice is annulled.
No, God gives free will for people to reject His (good) purpose for them.. when people find that they have chosen wrongly God makes a Way back for them.

John 18:8
Jesus answered, "I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go."



The father is greater than I.
No one is good except God.


And?

And so when we become a Christian through the disciples ministry..

John 17:20
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
we are..

Colossians 1:13
..rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,


If I'm talking to someone on the phone regarding an unpaid bill and I say I have their letter 'at hand' then I mean I have it close by, in front of me.. This is EXACTLY what Jesus means; the Kingdom of Heaven (Joy, Peace, Healing, Power, Wisdom etc) is AT hand, close by..

We both know that we can make scriptures say whatever we want to.
We can thump or we can reasonYour choice but if you choose thimping. We will not go long.
Absolutely; so IF your heart is for the TRUTH (WHATEVER it is and WHATEVER it costs you) then the Truth will seeek YOU out! Jesus IS the Truth!
Do you not find it strange that God's justice includes deferring a sentence and allowing the perpetrator, Satan, to continue doing evil.
If you reject God you have top follow someone right?
If Satan is God's enemy, why put the fox in the hen house. That is rather insane. Right?
Or do you put a loaded gun around your children?
As above!
Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
On earth as in heaven.

Should our human judges do the same as God and defer sentences for rapists and murderers and allow them to run around a bit before imposing their sentence?

If not, why not?
If it is good enough for God then it must be good enough for man.
It does not work does it?

John 16:11
and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

Regards
DL
The Cross.. the Cross.
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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5/10/2011 1:46:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/9/2011 5:58:48 PM, Lionheart wrote:
I have similar feelings on the subject... That is why I usually refer to hardcore Christians as being brainwashed. I have personally been involved with some people that have woken up from this kind of brainwashing. If anybody thinks that the True God is like the Christian God or the God of the bible, then that shows a lot about their character.

I will leave it at that for now. Either way, everyone is entitled to their own perspective and beliefs. I just don't agree with Christianity or the bible personally.

But, to each his own. Your truth is your truth.

I do not agree with that stance at all.
If I did I would not be here.
Are we not our brothers keeper?
I do not believe in Bible God any more than you do but that does not mean that I have lost sight of my duty to my fellow man.

It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.

They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus

Jesus Camp 1of 9

Promoting death to Gays.

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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5/10/2011 2:22:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 4:32:31 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/9/2011 12:49:04 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/9/2011 6:13:47 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:


SO; the world is under the control of satan:

1 John 5:19
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.



Why would God place his childen under the control of Satan?
Rather like putting the fox in the neh hose. Right?
Unless Satan is a good guy. Is he?


Man placed HIMSELF under the control of satan by taking his word over Gods; Adam effectively made Eve his god, by putting her before God.

And why not?
Is a human that has ---become as God---God's own words, not a better God for mankind than some alien God?


Why put satan in the garden? (he wrote, anticipating GIam's next question) Because to do otherwise would not have given Adam any choice and so the whole thing would simply have been a puppet show.


How would A & E know they were autonomous beings without ever doing something of their own will and not always doing God's will?
They could not.
This Yale professor and others asked the same question and it is quite a good one.
Christians have no answer for it other than they could not.


ONLY Jesus Christ was sinless and ONLY He (at the cross) has defeated satan. Now, He ransomed Himself for His disciples:


Not according to scripture. If he is part of the trinity and God then God certainly has sinned. Has he not killed millions.
Don't be stupid enough to say that the genocide of Noah's day was just good old justice.

He also breaks many more of his own commandments.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

'That sinneth' is the operative phrase here; Jesus Christ was and is without sin and so is NOT bound by the Law; the Law is for law-breakers.

The law maker can break his own laws can he? Do as I say, not as I do is a piss poor policy for a law maker.
Who was it, Tricky Dicky who said, if a president breaks the law, he is not breaking the law. Do more thinking and less thumping.


Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

As above..

You have garbage above.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

This is good except in the case of Jesus/God, he himself is the one who created the reason for the laying down of his life. that make it all so self serving that the notion of sacrifice is annulled.
No, God gives free will for people to reject His (good) purpose for them.. when people find that they have chosen wrongly God makes a Way back for them.


You think that ---do things my way or burn in hell forever is free will do you.
I see it as a threat and coercion.
If you tell your child that he is free to make his bed or not but if he chooses not to, he is grounded for a month, do you call that a free choice?


John 18:8
Jesus answered, "I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go."



The father is greater than I.
No one is good except God.


And?

And so when we become a Christian through the disciples ministry..

John 17:20
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
we are..

Colossians 1:13
..rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,


If I'm talking to someone on the phone regarding an unpaid bill and I say I have their letter 'at hand' then I mean I have it close by, in front of me.. This is EXACTLY what Jesus means; the Kingdom of Heaven (Joy, Peace, Healing, Power, Wisdom etc) is AT hand, close by..

We both know that we can make scriptures say whatever we want to.
We can thump or we can reasonYour choice but if you choose thimping. We will not go long.
Absolutely; so IF your heart is for the TRUTH (WHATEVER it is and WHATEVER it costs you) then the Truth will seeek YOU out! Jesus IS the Truth!
Do you not find it strange that God's justice includes deferring a sentence and allowing the perpetrator, Satan, to continue doing evil.
If you reject God you have top follow someone right?

If your top fellow is a genocidal maniac, should you not wonder if you should be following such?
How would you greet him? With a hearty HEIL?


If Satan is God's enemy, why put the fox in the hen house. That is rather insane. Right?
Or do you put a loaded gun around your children?
As above!

That means you would.
Nice parenting there pal. Not.


Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
On earth as in heaven.

Should our human judges do the same as God and defer sentences for rapists and murderers and allow them to run around a bit before imposing their sentence?

If not, why not?
If it is good enough for God then it must be good enough for man.
It does not work does it?

John 16:11
and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

Regards
DL


How did I know you would skip right over that last.
Pathetic. As I said, we will not go long. i do not like speaking to Bible quotes.

Regards
DL
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/11/2011 5:39:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 2:22:26 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:32:31 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/9/2011 12:49:04 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/9/2011 6:13:47 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:


SO; the world is under the control of satan:

1 John 5:19
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.



Why would God place his childen under the control of Satan?
Rather like putting the fox in the neh hose. Right?
Unless Satan is a good guy. Is he?


Man placed HIMSELF under the control of satan by taking his word over Gods; Adam effectively made Eve his god, by putting her before God.

And why not?
Is a human that has ---become as God---God's own words, not a better God for mankind than some alien God?


Look around you; turn on the News..open a Newspaper.. look at your own life.. THAT'S why not.

Why put satan in the garden? (he wrote, anticipating GIam's next question) Because to do otherwise would not have given Adam any choice and so the whole thing would simply have been a puppet show.


How would A & E know they were autonomous beings without ever doing something of their own will and not always doing God's will?
They could not.
This Yale professor and others asked the same question and it is quite a good one.
Christians have no answer for it other than they could not.

A much better question is did God make them strong enough to resdist or not? if He made them stronger would there still be true free will?



ONLY Jesus Christ was sinless and ONLY He (at the cross) has defeated satan. Now, He ransomed Himself for His disciples:


Not according to scripture. If he is part of the trinity and God then God certainly has sinned. Has he not killed millions.
Don't be stupid enough to say that the genocide of Noah's day was just good old justice.

He also breaks many more of his own commandments.

Can we, His creation judge the Creator? what with? the judgment He gave us? the knowledge He gave us?

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

'That sinneth' is the operative phrase here; Jesus Christ was and is without sin and so is NOT bound by the Law; the Law is for law-breakers.

The law maker can break his own laws can he? Do as I say, not as I do is a piss poor policy for a law maker.
Who was it, Tricky Dicky who said, if a president breaks the law, he is not breaking the law. Do more thinking and less thumping.

Laws are for the lawless not the sinless..

You simply do not understand what life and death TRULY are, and so you judge from a fallen, human perspective..
To be alive is to be One with God; until he sinned Adam was alive.. Jesus Christ was and is Alive in the true sense of the word..
Death is to be disconected from God.. so since adam we are all spiritually dead.. including Israels enemies, including the earths population who perished in the flood..
Now, you MAY say that this is unfair from your subjective opinion.. but you may NOT say that the Bible reveals God as a genocidal and unjust dictator.. to do so only shows your collossal theological ignorance..

Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

As above..

You have garbage above.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

This is good except in the case of Jesus/God, he himself is the one who created the reason for the laying down of his life. that make it all so self serving that the notion of sacrifice is annulled.
No, God gives free will for people to reject His (good) purpose for them.. when people find that they have chosen wrongly God makes a Way back for them.


You think that ---do things my way or burn in hell forever is free will do you.
I see it as a threat and coercion.
If you tell your child that he is free to make his bed or not but if he chooses not to, he is grounded for a month, do you call that a free choice?


To 'burn in hell forever' as you say, is to GET YOUR CHOICE, to not be in Gods presence or under His perfect Law.. The biggest horror to God would be to give you heaven without Him.. which would be a LIE..

John 18:8
Jesus answered, "I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go."



The father is greater than I.
No one is good except God.


And?

And so when we become a Christian through the disciples ministry..

John 17:20
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
we are..

Colossians 1:13
..rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,


If I'm talking to someone on the phone regarding an unpaid bill and I say I have their letter 'at hand' then I mean I have it close by, in front of me.. This is EXACTLY what Jesus means; the Kingdom of Heaven (Joy, Peace, Healing, Power, Wisdom etc) is AT hand, close by..

We both know that we can make scriptures say whatever we want to.
We can thump or we can reasonYour choice but if you choose thimping. We will not go long.
Absolutely; so IF your heart is for the TRUTH (WHATEVER it is and WHATEVER it costs you) then the Truth will seeek YOU out! Jesus IS the Truth!
Do you not find it strange that God's justice includes deferring a sentence and allowing the perpetrator, Satan, to continue doing evil.
If you reject God you have top follow someone right?

If your top fellow is a genocidal maniac, should you not wonder if you should be following such?
How would you greet him? With a hearty HEIL?


Denegrating Gods character is the No.1 gameplan since day one:
Genesis 3:4-5 (New International Version, ©2011)

4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
: : : If Satan is God's enemy, why put the fox in the hen house. That is rather insane. Right?
Or do you put a loaded gun around your children?
As above!

That means you would.
Nice parenting there pal. Not.

No, it means as above; free will or a puppet show?

How did I know you would skip right over that last.
Pathetic. As I said, we will not go long. i do not like speaking to Bible quotes.

Regards
DL

That's great.. I'll enjoy dismantling your every post without fear of reprisal!
The Cross.. the Cross.
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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5/11/2011 8:32:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
D

"Look around you; turn on the News..open a Newspaper.. look at your own life.. THAT'S why not."

Pick any marker of evil you like and you will note that, pre capita, there are less doing evil now that at any time in history.

------------------------------
True free will from God does not exist. How can ---do things my way or burn forever--- even be contemplated as freedom of choice.

-------------------------------

"Can we, His creation judge the Creator? what with? the judgment He gave us? the knowledge He gave us?"

The knowledge require to judge he tried to deny us.
We could not judge without the knowledge of good and evil.
Would you deny your children necessary and important knowledge?
Of course not. Why would God with his children?

Can we judge the creator? Certainly we can.
You have, have you not?
You have judged him good while I judge him evil.

--------------------------

"You simply do not understand what life and death TRULY are, and so you judge from a fallen, human perspective.."

And you are not one of the fallen?

-----------------------------

"To 'burn in hell forever' as you say, is to GET YOUR CHOICE"

Sure. All sane men would choose to burn and be tortured forever.
Give your head a shake.

Regards
DL
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/12/2011 6:01:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/11/2011 8:32:32 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
D

"Look around you; turn on the News..open a Newspaper.. look at your own life.. THAT'S why not."

Pick any marker of evil you like and you will note that, pre capita, there are less doing evil now that at any time in history.

You do not understand what TRUE evil actually is: it is to be 'good' without He who ALONE is GOOD.. it is to live in peace in a 'heaven on earth' without Him who created all things.. so this age is TRULY evil!

------------------------------
True free will from God does not exist. How can ---do things my way or burn forever--- even be contemplated as freedom of choice.

I believe freedom of thought exists; so, even if you are created too weak to resist temptation then you can at least agree with God; (REPENT) 'that was wrong I shouldn't have thought/said/done that' and then God will strengthen you to resist-THAT is free will.

-------------------------------

"Can we, His creation judge the Creator? what with? the judgment He gave us? the knowledge He gave us?"

The knowledge require to judge he tried to deny us.
We could not judge without the knowledge of good and evil.
Would you deny your children necessary and important knowledge?
Of course not. Why would God with his children?

The 'knowledge of good and evil' gives you the ability to WRONGLY BELEIVE you can judge Him; I am free of that curse, thank God!

Can we judge the creator? Certainly we can.
You have, have you not?
You have judged him good while I judge him evil.

No, HE has judged Himself good and PROVED it through the cross of Jesus Christ, WHY die for an evil God?

--------------------------

"You simply do not understand what life and death TRULY are, and so you judge from a fallen, human perspective.."

And you are not one of the fallen?

Not any more; I'm redeemed, (bought back) born again, spiritually alive..

-----------------------------

"To 'burn in hell forever' as you say, is to GET YOUR CHOICE"

Sure. All sane men would choose to burn and be tortured forever.
Give your head a shake.

You're choosing it every single day; when you choose to lie, to deceive, to close your eyes to anything that might go against the path you have chosen in your heart..

Regards
DL

I'm praying for you.
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/13/2011 5:09:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 3:14:23 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
You need prayer a damned site more than I do.
With your delusion, medical help would also be required.

Regards.
DL

madness is believing what is not. God IS.
The Cross.. the Cross.