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Where does morality come from ?

Phoenix_Reaper
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5/10/2011 4:52:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/26/2011 6:58:54 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
"Rights" don't actually exist. I don't really have a right to life, or to liberty, or anything like that. Rights are just the label we give to specific large-scale agreements among agents. I don't kill you, you don't kill me. I don't steal from you, you don't steal from me. They're a social convenience whose enforcement is basically a requirement for (mostly) peaceful coexistence.

Morality kind of fits in that.
Phoenix Reaper - To rise from the ashes of defeat and claim your soul.

: At 3/15/2011 4:23:07 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
: Taste is for pussïes. Be a nihilist. Drink vodka.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/10/2011 4:59:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 4:48:33 PM, Prodigy35 wrote:
From where ?

Nature.

There are acts which the human psyche is naturally opposed to being done to it and also acts which it naturally approves of. Given that the human psyche naturally approves and disapproves of certain kinds of treatment, the natural standard is that it's wrong to do things to creatures against its will just as it's wrong to have things done against your will.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Phoenix_Reaper
Posts: 318
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5/10/2011 5:06:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 4:59:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:48:33 PM, Prodigy35 wrote:
From where ?

Nature.

There are acts which the human psyche is naturally opposed to being done to it and also acts which it naturally approves of. Given that the human psyche naturally approves and disapproves of certain kinds of treatment, the natural standard is that it's wrong to do things to creatures against its will just as it's wrong to have things done against your will.

One thing you fail to mention... a persons nature will most likely differ from another. Which leads me back to my previous posts' quote.
Phoenix Reaper - To rise from the ashes of defeat and claim your soul.

: At 3/15/2011 4:23:07 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
: Taste is for pussïes. Be a nihilist. Drink vodka.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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5/10/2011 5:06:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 4:57:59 PM, innomen wrote:
Unless of course you believe in objective morality.

Sure, and where do humans come from? Other humans. Unless of course you believe that humans are bread in test tubes by aliens.
Phoenix_Reaper
Posts: 318
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5/10/2011 5:09:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 4:57:59 PM, innomen wrote:
Unless of course you believe in objective morality.

Morality is subjected rather than objective.
Phoenix Reaper - To rise from the ashes of defeat and claim your soul.

: At 3/15/2011 4:23:07 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
: Taste is for pussïes. Be a nihilist. Drink vodka.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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5/10/2011 5:09:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 4:52:04 PM, Phoenix_Reaper wrote:
At 4/26/2011 6:58:54 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
"Rights" don't actually exist. I don't really have a right to life, or to liberty, or anything like that. Rights are just the label we give to specific large-scale agreements among agents. I don't kill you, you don't kill me. I don't steal from you, you don't steal from me. They're a social convenience whose enforcement is basically a requirement for (mostly) peaceful coexistence.

Morality kind of fits in that.

I love it when someone strokes my..................... ego. :)
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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5/10/2011 5:11:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
But, seriously. I really don't want to get into another debate on nihilism. I swear, I've been battling it out with 6 or 7 people over the past few days. I'll just signpost it.

1. Presupposing objective moral facts without warrant.

2. Normative contingency.

3. Fails to account for values being necessarily subjective, not objective/inherent (i.e. [moral] values are the product of subjective individual judgment, not intrinsic metaphysical properties).
Phoenix_Reaper
Posts: 318
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5/10/2011 5:12:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 5:09:35 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:52:04 PM, Phoenix_Reaper wrote:
At 4/26/2011 6:58:54 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
"Rights" don't actually exist. I don't really have a right to life, or to liberty, or anything like that. Rights are just the label we give to specific large-scale agreements among agents. I don't kill you, you don't kill me. I don't steal from you, you don't steal from me. They're a social convenience whose enforcement is basically a requirement for (mostly) peaceful coexistence.

Morality kind of fits in that.

I love it when someone strokes my..................... ego. :)

HAHA.... you just summed it up so well that I have been reusing it quite often, giving you credit of course.
Phoenix Reaper - To rise from the ashes of defeat and claim your soul.

: At 3/15/2011 4:23:07 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
: Taste is for pussïes. Be a nihilist. Drink vodka.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/10/2011 5:13:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 5:06:24 PM, Phoenix_Reaper wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:59:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:48:33 PM, Prodigy35 wrote:
From where ?

Nature.

There are acts which the human psyche is naturally opposed to being done to it and also acts which it naturally approves of. Given that the human psyche naturally approves and disapproves of certain kinds of treatment, the natural standard is that it's wrong to do things to creatures against its will just as it's wrong to have things done against your will.

One thing you fail to mention... a persons nature will most likely differ from another. Which leads me back to my previous posts' quote.

Actually I worded my post specifically to account for the fact that humans have differing natures.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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5/10/2011 5:14:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 5:09:35 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:52:04 PM, Phoenix_Reaper wrote:
At 4/26/2011 6:58:54 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
"Rights" don't actually exist. I don't really have a right to life, or to liberty, or anything like that. Rights are just the label we give to specific large-scale agreements among agents. I don't kill you, you don't kill me. I don't steal from you, you don't steal from me. They're a social convenience whose enforcement is basically a requirement for (mostly) peaceful coexistence.

Morality kind of fits in that.

I love it when someone strokes my..................... ego. :)

Cool! Can i give you a hand job and stroke that too?
Phoenix_Reaper
Posts: 318
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5/10/2011 5:15:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 5:13:55 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/10/2011 5:06:24 PM, Phoenix_Reaper wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:59:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:48:33 PM, Prodigy35 wrote:
From where ?

Nature.

There are acts which the human psyche is naturally opposed to being done to it and also acts which it naturally approves of. Given that the human psyche naturally approves and disapproves of certain kinds of treatment, the natural standard is that it's wrong to do things to creatures against its will just as it's wrong to have things done against your will.

One thing you fail to mention... a persons nature will most likely differ from another. Which leads me back to my previous posts' quote.

Actually I worded my post specifically to account for the fact that humans have differing natures.

Ah darn yeah I overlooked it. Ops....... I am just going to slowly walk way now.
Phoenix Reaper - To rise from the ashes of defeat and claim your soul.

: At 3/15/2011 4:23:07 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
: Taste is for pussïes. Be a nihilist. Drink vodka.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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5/10/2011 5:22:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 5:14:43 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/10/2011 5:09:35 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:52:04 PM, Phoenix_Reaper wrote:
At 4/26/2011 6:58:54 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
"Rights" don't actually exist. I don't really have a right to life, or to liberty, or anything like that. Rights are just the label we give to specific large-scale agreements among agents. I don't kill you, you don't kill me. I don't steal from you, you don't steal from me. They're a social convenience whose enforcement is basically a requirement for (mostly) peaceful coexistence.

Morality kind of fits in that.

I love it when someone strokes my..................... ego. :)

Cool! Can i give you a hand job and stroke that too?

Lol. trollface.jpg
Lionheart
Posts: 520
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5/10/2011 5:25:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Morality comes from your self interest towards existence.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
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5/10/2011 6:15:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 4:52:04 PM, Phoenix_Reaper wrote:
At 4/26/2011 6:58:54 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
"Rights" don't actually exist. I don't really have a right to life, or to liberty, or anything like that. Rights are just the label we give to specific large-scale agreements among agents. I don't kill you, you don't kill me. I don't steal from you, you don't steal from me. They're a social convenience whose enforcement is basically a requirement for (mostly) peaceful coexistence.


Morality kind of fits in that.

.....

So we get morality from Cody?

...

Should we...um...I don't know, sacrifice a goat or something to him? Maybe burn some incense in his name?

;-)
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/10/2011 6:34:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 4:59:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:48:33 PM, Prodigy35 wrote:
From where ?

Nature.

There are acts which the human psyche is naturally opposed to being done to it and also acts which it naturally approves of. Given that the human psyche naturally approves and disapproves of certain kinds of treatment, the natural standard is that it's wrong to do things to creatures against its will just as it's wrong to have things done against your will.

Is-ought fallacy.

Plus, it's open to an obvious counterexample ーsuppose I need to give my kid a shot that will save her life but she hates getting shots and is not willing to acquiesce to getting a shot. I do it anyway. Are you saying I wronged her?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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5/10/2011 6:36:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 6:15:29 PM, Meatros wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:52:04 PM, Phoenix_Reaper wrote:
At 4/26/2011 6:58:54 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
"Rights" don't actually exist. I don't really have a right to life, or to liberty, or anything like that. Rights are just the label we give to specific large-scale agreements among agents. I don't kill you, you don't kill me. I don't steal from you, you don't steal from me. They're a social convenience whose enforcement is basically a requirement for (mostly) peaceful coexistence.


Morality kind of fits in that.

.....

So we get morality from Cody?

...

Should we...um...I don't know, sacrifice a goat or something to him? Maybe burn some incense in his name?

;-)

Yes.
Phoenix_Reaper
Posts: 318
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5/10/2011 6:38:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 6:34:20 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:59:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:48:33 PM, Prodigy35 wrote:
From where ?

Nature.

There are acts which the human psyche is naturally opposed to being done to it and also acts which it naturally approves of. Given that the human psyche naturally approves and disapproves of certain kinds of treatment, the natural standard is that it's wrong to do things to creatures against its will just as it's wrong to have things done against your will.

Is-ought fallacy.

Plus, it's open to an obvious counterexample ーsuppose I need to give my kid a shot that will save her life but she hates getting shots and is not willing to acquiesce to getting a shot. I do it anyway. Are you saying I wronged her?

In her eyes yes. Your eyes no. She does not know better. You think you know better.
Phoenix Reaper - To rise from the ashes of defeat and claim your soul.

: At 3/15/2011 4:23:07 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
: Taste is for pussïes. Be a nihilist. Drink vodka.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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5/10/2011 6:45:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 5:06:42 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:57:59 PM, innomen wrote:
Unless of course you believe in objective morality.

Sure, and where do humans come from? Other humans. Unless of course you believe that humans are bread in test tubes by aliens.

That is just stupid humans are not made of bread and test tubes. Really have you ever looked at someone and thought, yeah they come from muffins and stained glass. Plus it is obvious that humans are the genetically engineered slaves of shape-shifting reptiles who are humanoid in form. And you can not call them aliens simply because they come from another planet, that is racist.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/10/2011 6:48:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 4:49:18 PM, tkubok wrote:
From society and humans.

Where else would it come from?

Yeah where the hell else? I mean, God = absurdity here, how could an autority figure such as God even exist for one, letalone tell us what is right? Dear me, have I been warped to a universe where what men says goes?
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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5/10/2011 6:49:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 6:45:54 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 5/10/2011 5:06:42 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:57:59 PM, innomen wrote:
Unless of course you believe in objective morality.

Sure, and where do humans come from? Other humans. Unless of course you believe that humans are bread in test tubes by aliens.

That is just stupid humans are not made of bread and test tubes. Really have you ever looked at someone and thought, yeah they come from muffins and stained glass. Plus it is obvious that humans are the genetically engineered slaves of shape-shifting reptiles who are humanoid in form. And you can not call them aliens simply because they come from another planet, that is racist.

Dude, that was a typo. I meant to say Beans, not Bread. Damnit!
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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5/10/2011 6:57:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 6:48:26 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:49:18 PM, tkubok wrote:
From society and humans.

Where else would it come from?

Yeah where the hell else? I mean, God = absurdity here, how could an autority figure such as God even exist for one, letalone tell us what is right? Dear me, have I been warped to a universe where what men says goes?

Yes, you have. 3000 years ago, it was morally just to stone an unruly child. Today, it is not. Tell me, is that god, or mans morals?
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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5/10/2011 7:06:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 6:49:13 PM, tkubok wrote:

Dude, that was a typo. I meant to say Beans, not Bread. Damnit!

Ok, that makes perfect sense then.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/10/2011 7:09:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 6:34:20 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:59:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:48:33 PM, Prodigy35 wrote:
From where ?

Nature.

There are acts which the human psyche is naturally opposed to being done to it and also acts which it naturally approves of. Given that the human psyche naturally approves and disapproves of certain kinds of treatment, the natural standard is that it's wrong to do things to creatures against its will just as it's wrong to have things done against your will.

Is-ought fallacy.

If something is inherently bad then its not fallacious to say that its wrong to do bad. Why? Just look up the definition of "wrong."

Plus, it's open to an obvious counterexample;suppose I need to give my kid a shot that will save her life but she hates getting shots and is not willing to acquiesce to getting a shot. I do it anyway. Are you saying I wronged her?

First of all, children are always an exception whether its politics, sociology, health, and even morality. Children aren't fully developed or adequately developed enough to make mature judgements.

Secondly, if you asked the child if he or she would rather have the mildly painful shot or a devastating death, the child will probably say no to dying.

Regardless, a parent knows better than the child about how to help its well being so it is not immoral for a parent to help a childs well being.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/10/2011 7:14:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 6:57:38 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/10/2011 6:48:26 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:49:18 PM, tkubok wrote:
From society and humans.

Where else would it come from?

Yeah where the hell else? I mean, God = absurdity here, how could an authority figure such as God even exist for one, letalone tell us what is right? Dear me, have I been warped to a universe where what men says goes?

Yes, you have. 3000 years ago, it was morally just to stone an unruly child. Today, it is not. Tell me, is that god, or mans morals?

Today it still could be, what we, the west, find just maybe unjust in the east. If man inhabited morality, then there is no real justice, just controlled justice for no real reason. For happiness I suppose. What if one mans happiness out weight a thousand peoples emotion of happiness, should he kill them because that makes him happy more than a thousand people?

But no, I do not approve of any sort of stoning, it is horrific, I've seen videos of it. However, although the punishment for crimes against God in the OT were harsh, there are set guild lines of what not to do, if broken, one must face punishment. Just like today, in modern prisons, punishment is harsh. One is confined in a limited space, some feel forced to kill themselves, cut themselves and do other kinds of self harm. Some prisoners are driven almost mad that they try killing themselves with drugs, others do so much self harm they can die of blood lose and they can end up at a metal home for the rest of their days. Ask a number of prisoners, I submit that a few would rather be stoned than spend another 30 years in jail.
tkubok
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5/10/2011 7:52:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 7:14:02 PM, GodSands wrote:
Today it still could be, what we, the west, find just maybe unjust in the east. If man inhabited morality, then there is no real justice, just controlled justice for no real reason. For happiness I suppose. What if one mans happiness out weight a thousand peoples emotion of happiness, should he kill them because that makes him happy more than a thousand people?
The fact that it COULD be, but isnt, proves my point. Morality comes from humans.

Depends on what you mean by "Real" justice. We have mans perceived justice, and that is quite real, because people believe that it exists.

But i dont understand how you have come to the conclusion that one mans hapiness necessarily outweighs 1000 peoples emotion of hapiness? Im sure those 1000 people would be perfectly happy not dying.

But no, I do not approve of any sort of stoning, it is horrific, I've seen videos of it. However, although the punishment for crimes against God in the OT were harsh, there are set guild lines of what not to do, if broken, one must face punishment. Just like today, in modern prisons, punishment is harsh. One is confined in a limited space, some feel forced to kill themselves, cut themselves and do other kinds of self harm. Some prisoners are driven almost mad that they try killing themselves with drugs, others do so much self harm they can die of blood lose and they can end up at a metal home for the rest of their days. Ask a number of prisoners, I submit that a few would rather be stoned than spend another 30 years in jail.

Sorry, but i dont know what timeline you are from. Because, where I come from, our jails have an open-cell policy where inmates are capable of spending each day outside their small, cramped cells and visit the couryard, play basketball, cards, eat at a cafeteria, and even have phone call and visiting priviledges.

Maybe in a prison circa 1850, would you be stuck in a cramped cell every day for 30 years, but sadly, i live in the year 2011.

But let me ask you this. Do you believe that Stoning the child to death, is a JUST and SUFFICIENT punishment for an unruly child?
Lionheart
Posts: 520
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5/10/2011 8:56:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Anybody has the freedom to create their own moral code and it does not need to coincide with anybody else's moral code in order to exist.

Do you feel that it is morally right to eat the flesh of another living being? A human being?

Cannibals feel that it is not morally right to deny the flesh of another living being.

Moral code is developed by the self interests of your own existence.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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5/10/2011 9:00:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/10/2011 5:09:35 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 5/10/2011 4:52:04 PM, Phoenix_Reaper wrote:
At 4/26/2011 6:58:54 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
"Rights" don't actually exist.

Morality kind of fits in that.

I love it when someone strokes my..................... ego. :)

Blah blah blah circular nilist argument, killing DDO
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen