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Can you know God without understanding or rec

GreatestIam
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5/11/2011 9:39:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Can you know God without understanding or recognizing his perfect works?

The whole notion of knowing and following God, is to know how he works and thinks, tied to a belief that he is perfect in all things and has the miracle at hand to create things the way he wants.

Scripture tells us to look to the universe around us for proof of his reality. Logic and reason tell us the same thing. This indicates that we should see the perfection of his works all around us.

Deut 32;4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Mat 7;18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The logic trail of these two verses says that God's works all begin as perfect and that that perfection is maintain and passed up through history.

I like to think I know a bit about God because, as I look about, I see that ever lasting perfection as it moves to a more perfect state over time. Evolving perfection.
Consider a baby, all babies including you and I.
We all begin life as perfect as nature, or God, can produce with our DNA and all other conditions at hand. This is a truth even if we are born with flaws and is irrefutable in terms of both nature, logic, reason and the Bible.

This truth led to my apotheosis and knowledge of God and nature.
I offer it here for your contemplation and comments.

I cannot see anything that would my view but am willing to listen. If you cannot see the perfection that I do, then I will try to persuade you.

Perhaps the best way to begin would be in you opining on the following and telling me whether you think it is a cynical view of life or if it is a real and true view of life.

Candide
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end."

Regards
DL
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/12/2011 5:48:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/11/2011 9:39:57 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Can you know God without understanding or recognizing his perfect works?

The whole notion of knowing and following God, is to know how he works and thinks, tied to a belief that he is perfect in all things and has the miracle at hand to create things the way he wants.

Scripture tells us to look to the universe around us for proof of his reality. Logic and reason tell us the same thing. This indicates that we should see the perfection of his works all around us.

Where? The Bible states that once you know God you will then see His glory on the earth:

Psalm 19:1
The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.


Deut 32;4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Nothing to do with creation, just His nature; unmovable.. steadfast..

Mat 7;18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

He's talking about what comes out of a mans heart.

The logic trail of these two verses says that God's works all begin as perfect and that that perfection is maintain and passed up through history.

Not even close.

I like to think I know a bit about God because, as I look about, I see that ever lasting perfection as it moves to a more perfect state over time. Evolving perfection.
Consider a baby, all babies including you and I.
We all begin life as perfect as nature, or God, can produce with our DNA and all other conditions at hand. This is a truth even if we are born with flaws and is irrefutable in terms of both nature, logic, reason and the Bible.

Downs syndrome? Babies born blind? severely disabled? still births?
The whole universe is fallen and so far from perfect; everything is rotting, rusting and decaying:

Romans 8:22
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.


This truth led to my apotheosis and knowledge of God and nature.
I offer it here for your contemplation and comments.

I cannot see anything that would my view but am willing to listen. If you cannot see the perfection that I do, then I will try to persuade you.

Perhaps the best way to begin would be in you opining on the following and telling me whether you think it is a cynical view of life or if it is a real and true view of life.

Candide
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end."



Regards
DL

Once again you show your complete inability to discern scripture, this is exactly how it must be:

1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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5/12/2011 7:52:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/11/2011 9:39:57 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Can you know God without understanding or recognizing his perfect works?

The whole notion of knowing and following God, is to know how he works and thinks, tied to a belief that he is perfect in all things and has the miracle at hand to create things the way he wants.

Scripture tells us to look to the universe around us for proof of his reality. Logic and reason tell us the same thing. This indicates that we should see the perfection of his works all around us.

Deut 32;4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Mat 7;18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The logic trail of these two verses says that God's works all begin as perfect and that that perfection is maintain and passed up through history.

I like to think I know a bit about God because, as I look about, I see that ever lasting perfection as it moves to a more perfect state over time. Evolving perfection.
Consider a baby, all babies including you and I.
We all begin life as perfect as nature, or God, can produce with our DNA and all other conditions at hand. This is a truth even if we are born with flaws and is irrefutable in terms of both nature, logic, reason and the Bible.

This truth led to my apotheosis and knowledge of God and nature.
I offer it here for your contemplation and comments.


I am guessing you like fruit, cause all I see is you cherry picking....Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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5/12/2011 3:09:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 5:48:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
.

Hey, if you want to believe your God is a loser who cannot get things right, then have at it.

The God I know got it right.

Regards
DL
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/17/2011 4:30:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/12/2011 3:09:17 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/12/2011 5:48:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
.

Hey, if you want to believe your God is a loser who cannot get things right, then have at it.

The God I know got it right.

Regards
DL

Putting thoughts, arguments and words into my mouth is about the only way you may convince yourself of your intelectual superiority I suppose..

Not only did God get things exactly right first time, He's going to put everything exactly right again..
The Cross.. the Cross.
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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5/24/2011 9:29:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/17/2011 4:30:43 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/12/2011 3:09:17 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/12/2011 5:48:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
.

Hey, if you want to believe your God is a loser who cannot get things right, then have at it.

The God I know got it right.

Regards
DL

Putting thoughts, arguments and words into my mouth is about the only way you may convince yourself of your intelectual superiority I suppose..

Not only did God get things exactly right first time, He's going to put everything exactly right again..

LOL.

If exactly right then there is no need for an "again"

I see the first right as being ongoing and it will always remain right.

Oh ye of little faith.

Regards
DL
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/25/2011 5:26:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/24/2011 9:29:33 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/17/2011 4:30:43 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/12/2011 3:09:17 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/12/2011 5:48:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
.

Hey, if you want to believe your God is a loser who cannot get things right, then have at it.

The God I know got it right.

Regards
DL

Putting thoughts, arguments and words into my mouth is about the only way you may convince yourself of your intelectual superiority I suppose..

Not only did God get things exactly right first time, He's going to put everything exactly right again..

LOL.

If exactly right then there is no need for an "again"

I see the first right as being ongoing and it will always remain right.

Oh ye of little faith.

Regards
DL

I think what your, and many others on this site, real problem is, is that you cannot believe God can create a truly sentient being, with real choices.. He can and does!

So God's perfect, first time, creation was destroyed by parts of that creation, through satan and Adam and Eve who CHOSE to disobey God..

Did God make them too weak to overcome temptation? Sure, BUT the alternative would be worse; a hundred thousand million Begotten Sons, ALL identical, all God Himself.. and so God is lost in an eternity of a hall of mirrors.. ahh!

So, the weaker He makes us the less like Himself (and His ONLY begotten Son) we are.. then we have only to choose His Way to choose to become like Him..

THIS is the Great Plan of Redemption!
The Cross.. the Cross.
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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5/25/2011 9:26:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/25/2011 5:26:46 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/24/2011 9:29:33 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/17/2011 4:30:43 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/12/2011 3:09:17 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/12/2011 5:48:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
.

Hey, if you want to believe your God is a loser who cannot get things right, then have at it.

The God I know got it right.

Regards
DL

Putting thoughts, arguments and words into my mouth is about the only way you may convince yourself of your intelectual superiority I suppose..

Not only did God get things exactly right first time, He's going to put everything exactly right again..

LOL.

If exactly right then there is no need for an "again"

I see the first right as being ongoing and it will always remain right.

Oh ye of little faith.

Regards
DL

I think what your, and many others on this site, real problem is, is that you cannot believe God can create a truly sentient being, with real choices.. He can and does!


THIS is the Great Plan of Redemption!

Yet the moment A & E showed any autonomous thinking and became as God's knowing good and evil, God threw a sissy fit.

I am working on something you might think about. If your indoctrination lets you that is. So far you just repeat dogma without logic or reason.

Why do Christians not appreciate their moral sense?

Eden, the fall or the elevation of mankind.
A moral sense is what is developed by our study of morals and ethics.
In Eden, this study can in the form of a tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Adam and Eve, as neophytes to life, were not aware of what was good or evil because they had yet to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and had yet to develop morals till after absorbing the information set out by God for their consumption.
This assumes of course that God wanted man with autonomy and a moral sense.
This gain is clearly spoken of by God when he stated that A & E had become as God's, knowing good and evil.

I find it strange that Christians see our gaining of a moral sense as a fall. Christians do not give much value to their moral sense and think that we were in Eden strictly to obey and not learn that we are autonomous beings.
The old Jews and Hebrew interpreted their scriptures as that being our elevation, not our fall and were quite surprised when Christianity began to read scriptures literally, even the Jewish ones, that the Jews never took literally.

Regards
DL