Total Posts:69|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Genuine question to all Muslims

Indophile
Posts: 1,414
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 9:09:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
What was the purpose of the Qur'an being sent?

What is the meaning of this verse?
"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful'.(surah 2: 23 of the qur'an.)

The person known as Fatihah is giving me untold grief saying that the Qur'an was used to inspire followers, use them to conquer nations, and then to rule over those nations and that this is its purpose. He also says that the above surah means that one has to do all this (i.e. inspire followers, conquer nations, rule over them,etc.) to disprove the Qur'an.

Is this true?

Please clarify. I beg of you.
(Otherwise I feel like I'll lose my mind talking with this Fatihah)
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 9:26:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Response: Challenge him to a formal debate. I did and it satisfied my ego substantially.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 9:28:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 9:09:46 AM, Indophile wrote:
What was the purpose of the Qur'an being sent?

What is the meaning of this verse?
"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful'.(surah 2: 23 of the qur'an.)

The person known as Fatihah is giving me untold grief saying that the Qur'an was used to inspire followers, use them to conquer nations, and then to rule over those nations and that this is its purpose. He also says that the above surah means that one has to do all this (i.e. inspire followers, conquer nations, rule over them,etc.) to disprove the Qur'an.

Is this true?

Please clarify. I beg of you.
(Otherwise I feel like I'll lose my mind talking with this Fatihah)

Response: The verse is self-explanatory. It clearly says to produce a chapter like the qur'an. It is a test of inspiration, as a chapter of the qur'an was used to inspire Muhammad with enough followers to conquer his opposition and ultimately a nation. Thus to produce a chapter like the qur'an means that you yourself must create a speech/literature and use it to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation. The verse is clear. The problem you are clearly having is that it can be easily recognized that the challenge is impossible, thus confirming the fact that the qur'an is the true word of Allah. That's why you've never attempted it. So in an effort to justify your denial and dodging, you've reduced your argument to begging for another interpretation of the verse, hoping interpretation does not expose you like the challenge has. it is quite entertaining to watch, especially when the very next verse of the qur'an says "but if you do it not, and you shall never do it..." For even Allah knew that you would never attempt the challenge as all doubters of the true word of Allah are always all talk with no action. Al hamdu lilah.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 9:30:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 9:26:33 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Response: Challenge him to a formal debate. I did and it satisfied my ego substantially.

Response: Yes. If you need your ego boosted, then it is wise to challenge me in a debate. Not the case if you actually want to win it.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 9:38:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 9:26:33 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Response: Challenge him to a formal debate. I did and it satisfied my ego substantially.

He does not even acknowledge any of my points. He just keeps saying the same thing again and again. I don't think he will acknowledge my point even if I challenge him to a debate. That's assuming he'll accept my challenge.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 9:39:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 9:30:35 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 5/18/2011 9:26:33 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Response: Challenge him to a formal debate. I did and it satisfied my ego substantially.

Response: Yes. If you need your ego boosted, then it is wise to challenge me in a debate. Not the case if you actually want to win it.

http://www.debate.org...

Let's debate again? How about "Intelligence can never come from Non-intelligence", with me as Con.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 9:41:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 9:38:13 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 5/18/2011 9:26:33 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Response: Challenge him to a formal debate. I did and it satisfied my ego substantially.

He does not even acknowledge any of my points. He just keeps saying the same thing again and again. I don't think he will acknowledge my point even if I challenge him to a debate. That's assuming he'll accept my challenge.

Response: You are incorrect. You must challenge him to a formal debate. When I did, my ego was satisfied.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 9:47:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 9:39:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 5/18/2011 9:30:35 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 5/18/2011 9:26:33 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Response: Challenge him to a formal debate. I did and it satisfied my ego substantially.

Response: Yes. If you need your ego boosted, then it is wise to challenge me in a debate. Not the case if you actually want to win it.

http://www.debate.org...

Let's debate again? How about "Intelligence can never come from Non-intelligence", with me as Con.

Response: We have already been down this road. I don't debate common sense. It's like asking to debate whether 2=2 is 4. As I stated before, we can debate whether or not Allah exist, in which I provide proof that He does and you that He doesn't. In it, the obvious fact that unintelligence can't create intelligence can be brought up to which you can address it.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 10:14:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 9:09:46 AM, Indophile wrote:
What was the purpose of the Qur'an being sent?

Their are many ways I could answer that. However I will allow the following verses to do the talking.

Quran
2:2 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
2:3 Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
2:4 And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.


Also

Quran
3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).


This is the primary purpose. Quran is not limited to this purpose.

What is the meaning of this verse?
"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful'.(surah 2: 23 of the qur'an.)

Their is one objection to Quran. Ultimately Quran is a book which says Quran is from God. The proof of Quran being from God is cyclic!

This argument is valid if a person never bothers to read Quran.

If Quran has not come from God, then it must be written by humans or helpers (Jinns!, Computers!). Quran has several unique features which make it impossible to be written by humanity. That means Quran has been sent by God. (Reducto ad absurdum!)

That is why the Quran challenges the person reading it to produce something like Quran. If they are truthful, they will realize it is impossible.

What are the unique features in Quran. I will try to list some of them. Appreciating some of them may require knowledge of Arabic.

1. Quran is written as both prose and poetry simultaneously! The language is of simple daily communication. And yet the effect is highly poetical.
2. The language is simple. Any Arabic speaker is able to understand the language very well. Try to understand English which is few hundred year old - and you will see the difference.
3. Quran talks about earlier books with confidence. Confirming most of it. But contradicting and correcting it as well with authority.
4. Quran talks about many things about nature. All of them remain scientifically correct (i.e. they do not contradict current scientific knowledge) even 1500 years later. This has to be contrasted with other book from that period (In fact - even a comparison with Hadith is revealing)
5. The one characteristic which I have personally experienced. Once I start reading it - I get a feeling that the Quran is directly talking to me. I have read large number of books in multiple languages and on multiple topics (I am not challenging anyone), and yet that is one experience I never had anywhere else.

While going through all of the above, remember that Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) was an unlettered orphan living in a largely uneducated desert country with little or no civilization. He had minimal or no contact with Christian and Jews. Books were not common at that time. In any case - he had never read any book.

I hope the meaning of the verse is clear. You can listen as well as read Quran here...

http://www.quranexplorer.com...
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 10:19:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 10:14:43 AM, baggins wrote:
At 5/18/2011 9:09:46 AM, Indophile wrote:
What was the purpose of the Qur'an being sent?

Their are many ways I could answer that. However I will allow the following verses to do the talking.

Quran
2:2 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
2:3 Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
2:4 And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.


Also

Quran
3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).


This is the primary purpose. Quran is not limited to this purpose.

What is the meaning of this verse?
"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful'.(surah 2: 23 of the qur'an.)

Their is one objection to Quran. Ultimately Quran is a book which says Quran is from God. The proof of Quran being from God is cyclic!

This argument is valid if a person never bothers to read Quran.

If Quran has not come from God, then it must be written by humans or helpers (Jinns!, Computers!). Quran has several unique features which make it impossible to be written by humanity. That means Quran has been sent by God. (Reducto ad absurdum!)

That is why the Quran challenges the person reading it to produce something like Quran. If they are truthful, they will realize it is impossible.

What are the unique features in Quran. I will try to list some of them. Appreciating some of them may require knowledge of Arabic.

1. Quran is written as both prose and poetry simultaneously! The language is of simple daily communication. And yet the effect is highly poetical.
2. The language is simple. Any Arabic speaker is able to understand the language very well. Try to understand English which is few hundred year old - and you will see the difference.
3. Quran talks about earlier books with confidence. Confirming most of it. But contradicting and correcting it as well with authority.
4. Quran talks about many things about nature. All of them remain scientifically correct (i.e. they do not contradict current scientific knowledge) even 1500 years later. This has to be contrasted with other book from that period (In fact - even a comparison with Hadith is revealing)
5. The one characteristic which I have personally experienced. Once I start reading it - I get a feeling that the Quran is directly talking to me. I have read large number of books in multiple languages and on multiple topics (I am not challenging anyone), and yet that is one experience I never had anywhere else.

While going through all of the above, remember that Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) was an unlettered orphan living in a largely uneducated desert country with little or no civilization. He had minimal or no contact with Christian and Jews. Books were not common at that time. In any case - he had never read any book.

I hope the meaning of the verse is clear. You can listen as well as read Quran here...

http://www.quranexplorer.com...

I understand all this, but when you say "That is why the Quran challenges the person reading it to produce something like Quran. If they are truthful, they will realize it is impossible." this, that is produce something like the Qur'an, does that mean I have to use it to conquer nations?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 10:22:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 10:19:53 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 5/18/2011 10:14:43 AM, baggins wrote:
At 5/18/2011 9:09:46 AM, Indophile wrote:
What was the purpose of the Qur'an being sent?

Their are many ways I could answer that. However I will allow the following verses to do the talking.

Quran
2:2 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
2:3 Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
2:4 And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.


Also

Quran
3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).


This is the primary purpose. Quran is not limited to this purpose.

What is the meaning of this verse?
"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful'.(surah 2: 23 of the qur'an.)

Their is one objection to Quran. Ultimately Quran is a book which says Quran is from God. The proof of Quran being from God is cyclic!

This argument is valid if a person never bothers to read Quran.

If Quran has not come from God, then it must be written by humans or helpers (Jinns!, Computers!). Quran has several unique features which make it impossible to be written by humanity. That means Quran has been sent by God. (Reducto ad absurdum!)

That is why the Quran challenges the person reading it to produce something like Quran. If they are truthful, they will realize it is impossible.

What are the unique features in Quran. I will try to list some of them. Appreciating some of them may require knowledge of Arabic.

1. Quran is written as both prose and poetry simultaneously! The language is of simple daily communication. And yet the effect is highly poetical.
2. The language is simple. Any Arabic speaker is able to understand the language very well. Try to understand English which is few hundred year old - and you will see the difference.
3. Quran talks about earlier books with confidence. Confirming most of it. But contradicting and correcting it as well with authority.
4. Quran talks about many things about nature. All of them remain scientifically correct (i.e. they do not contradict current scientific knowledge) even 1500 years later. This has to be contrasted with other book from that period (In fact - even a comparison with Hadith is revealing)
5. The one characteristic which I have personally experienced. Once I start reading it - I get a feeling that the Quran is directly talking to me. I have read large number of books in multiple languages and on multiple topics (I am not challenging anyone), and yet that is one experience I never had anywhere else.

While going through all of the above, remember that Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) was an unlettered orphan living in a largely uneducated desert country with little or no civilization. He had minimal or no contact with Christian and Jews. Books were not common at that time. In any case - he had never read any book.

I hope the meaning of the verse is clear. You can listen as well as read Quran here...

http://www.quranexplorer.com...

I understand all this, but when you say "That is why the Quran challenges the person reading it to produce something like Quran. If they are truthful, they will realize it is impossible." this, that is produce something like the Qur'an, does that mean I have to use it to conquer nations?

In my opinion, no. You just have to be truthful to yourself.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 10:25:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 10:19:53 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 5/18/2011 10:14:43 AM, baggins wrote:
At 5/18/2011 9:09:46 AM, Indophile wrote:
What was the purpose of the Qur'an being sent?

Their are many ways I could answer that. However I will allow the following verses to do the talking.

Quran
2:2 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
2:3 Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
2:4 And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.


Also

Quran
3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).


This is the primary purpose. Quran is not limited to this purpose.

What is the meaning of this verse?
"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful'.(surah 2: 23 of the qur'an.)

Their is one objection to Quran. Ultimately Quran is a book which says Quran is from God. The proof of Quran being from God is cyclic!

This argument is valid if a person never bothers to read Quran.

If Quran has not come from God, then it must be written by humans or helpers (Jinns!, Computers!). Quran has several unique features which make it impossible to be written by humanity. That means Quran has been sent by God. (Reducto ad absurdum!)

That is why the Quran challenges the person reading it to produce something like Quran. If they are truthful, they will realize it is impossible.

What are the unique features in Quran. I will try to list some of them. Appreciating some of them may require knowledge of Arabic.

1. Quran is written as both prose and poetry simultaneously! The language is of simple daily communication. And yet the effect is highly poetical.
2. The language is simple. Any Arabic speaker is able to understand the language very well. Try to understand English which is few hundred year old - and you will see the difference.
3. Quran talks about earlier books with confidence. Confirming most of it. But contradicting and correcting it as well with authority.
4. Quran talks about many things about nature. All of them remain scientifically correct (i.e. they do not contradict current scientific knowledge) even 1500 years later. This has to be contrasted with other book from that period (In fact - even a comparison with Hadith is revealing)
5. The one characteristic which I have personally experienced. Once I start reading it - I get a feeling that the Quran is directly talking to me. I have read large number of books in multiple languages and on multiple topics (I am not challenging anyone), and yet that is one experience I never had anywhere else.

While going through all of the above, remember that Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) was an unlettered orphan living in a largely uneducated desert country with little or no civilization. He had minimal or no contact with Christian and Jews. Books were not common at that time. In any case - he had never read any book.

I hope the meaning of the verse is clear. You can listen as well as read Quran here...

http://www.quranexplorer.com...

I understand all this, but when you say "That is why the Quran challenges the person reading it to produce something like Quran. If they are truthful, they will realize it is impossible." this, that is produce something like the Qur'an, does that mean I have to use it to conquer nations?

Response: That is the miracle of the qur'an. So of course you will have to. Otherwise, your speech/literature is not like the qur'an.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 10:26:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 10:22:39 AM, baggins wrote:
At 5/18/2011 10:19:53 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 5/18/2011 10:14:43 AM, baggins wrote:
At 5/18/2011 9:09:46 AM, Indophile wrote:
What was the purpose of the Qur'an being sent?

Their are many ways I could answer that. However I will allow the following verses to do the talking.

Quran
2:2 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
2:3 Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
2:4 And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.


Also

Quran
3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).


This is the primary purpose. Quran is not limited to this purpose.

What is the meaning of this verse?
"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful'.(surah 2: 23 of the qur'an.)

Their is one objection to Quran. Ultimately Quran is a book which says Quran is from God. The proof of Quran being from God is cyclic!

This argument is valid if a person never bothers to read Quran.

If Quran has not come from God, then it must be written by humans or helpers (Jinns!, Computers!). Quran has several unique features which make it impossible to be written by humanity. That means Quran has been sent by God. (Reducto ad absurdum!)

That is why the Quran challenges the person reading it to produce something like Quran. If they are truthful, they will realize it is impossible.

What are the unique features in Quran. I will try to list some of them. Appreciating some of them may require knowledge of Arabic.

1. Quran is written as both prose and poetry simultaneously! The language is of simple daily communication. And yet the effect is highly poetical.
2. The language is simple. Any Arabic speaker is able to understand the language very well. Try to understand English which is few hundred year old - and you will see the difference.
3. Quran talks about earlier books with confidence. Confirming most of it. But contradicting and correcting it as well with authority.
4. Quran talks about many things about nature. All of them remain scientifically correct (i.e. they do not contradict current scientific knowledge) even 1500 years later. This has to be contrasted with other book from that period (In fact - even a comparison with Hadith is revealing)
5. The one characteristic which I have personally experienced. Once I start reading it - I get a feeling that the Quran is directly talking to me. I have read large number of books in multiple languages and on multiple topics (I am not challenging anyone), and yet that is one experience I never had anywhere else.

While going through all of the above, remember that Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) was an unlettered orphan living in a largely uneducated desert country with little or no civilization. He had minimal or no contact with Christian and Jews. Books were not common at that time. In any case - he had never read any book.

I hope the meaning of the verse is clear. You can listen as well as read Quran here...

http://www.quranexplorer.com...

I understand all this, but when you say "That is why the Quran challenges the person reading it to produce something like Quran. If they are truthful, they will realize it is impossible." this, that is produce something like the Qur'an, does that mean I have to use it to conquer nations?

In my opinion, no. You just have to be truthful to yourself.

Thanks. That's what I am trying to tell Fatihah, but he keeps repeating that the challenge is not just to produce something like the Qur'an, but to use it to conquer nations, as that's what was done with the Qur'an.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 10:28:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 10:26:00 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 5/18/2011 10:22:39 AM, baggins wrote:
At 5/18/2011 10:19:53 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 5/18/2011 10:14:43 AM, baggins wrote:
At 5/18/2011 9:09:46 AM, Indophile wrote:
What was the purpose of the Qur'an being sent?

Their are many ways I could answer that. However I will allow the following verses to do the talking.

Quran
2:2 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
2:3 Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
2:4 And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.


Also

Quran
3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).


This is the primary purpose. Quran is not limited to this purpose.

What is the meaning of this verse?
"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful'.(surah 2: 23 of the qur'an.)

Their is one objection to Quran. Ultimately Quran is a book which says Quran is from God. The proof of Quran being from God is cyclic!

This argument is valid if a person never bothers to read Quran.

If Quran has not come from God, then it must be written by humans or helpers (Jinns!, Computers!). Quran has several unique features which make it impossible to be written by humanity. That means Quran has been sent by God. (Reducto ad absurdum!)

That is why the Quran challenges the person reading it to produce something like Quran. If they are truthful, they will realize it is impossible.

What are the unique features in Quran. I will try to list some of them. Appreciating some of them may require knowledge of Arabic.

1. Quran is written as both prose and poetry simultaneously! The language is of simple daily communication. And yet the effect is highly poetical.
2. The language is simple. Any Arabic speaker is able to understand the language very well. Try to understand English which is few hundred year old - and you will see the difference.
3. Quran talks about earlier books with confidence. Confirming most of it. But contradicting and correcting it as well with authority.
4. Quran talks about many things about nature. All of them remain scientifically correct (i.e. they do not contradict current scientific knowledge) even 1500 years later. This has to be contrasted with other book from that period (In fact - even a comparison with Hadith is revealing)
5. The one characteristic which I have personally experienced. Once I start reading it - I get a feeling that the Quran is directly talking to me. I have read large number of books in multiple languages and on multiple topics (I am not challenging anyone), and yet that is one experience I never had anywhere else.

While going through all of the above, remember that Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) was an unlettered orphan living in a largely uneducated desert country with little or no civilization. He had minimal or no contact with Christian and Jews. Books were not common at that time. In any case - he had never read any book.

I hope the meaning of the verse is clear. You can listen as well as read Quran here...

http://www.quranexplorer.com...

I understand all this, but when you say "That is why the Quran challenges the person reading it to produce something like Quran. If they are truthful, they will realize it is impossible." this, that is produce something like the Qur'an, does that mean I have to use it to conquer nations?

In my opinion, no. You just have to be truthful to yourself.

Thanks. That's what I am trying to tell Fatihah, but he keeps repeating that the challenge is not just to produce something like the Qur'an, but to use it to conquer nations, as that's what was done with the Qur'an.

Response: And as demonstrated, what you've been telling is wrong, for it is not like a chapter in the qur'an.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 11:23:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 10:25:38 AM, Fatihah wrote:
Response: That is the miracle of the qur'an. So of course you will have to. Otherwise, your speech/literature is not like the qur'an.

Actually winning a nation is quite simple. Specially if you are comparing it to disproving Quran. Why are you simplifying the challenge?
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 11:48:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 11:23:58 AM, baggins wrote:
At 5/18/2011 10:25:38 AM, Fatihah wrote:
Response: That is the miracle of the qur'an. So of course you will have to. Otherwise, your speech/literature is not like the qur'an.

Actually winning a nation is quite simple. Specially if you are comparing it to disproving Quran. Why are you simplifying the challenge?

Response: The challenge is not simplified, as the challenge is to use speech/literature invented by a person/s to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation. Such an act is impossible, as the challenge proves, thus confirming that the qur'an in which Muhammad used to inspire others in conquering Arabia is not the work of any person but is from a higher power and authority who is Allah.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 12:02:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
OK... if you insist.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 12:28:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 12:02:45 PM, baggins wrote:
OK... if you insist.

he not only insists, he keeps repeating the same thing again and again. Also, when given evidence that nations have been conquered, he says he cannot accept links, photographs, etc. as evidence.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 12:39:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 10:14:43 AM, baggins wrote:

What are the unique features in Quran. I will try to list some of them. Appreciating some of them may require knowledge of Arabic.

1. Quran is written as both prose and poetry simultaneously! The language is of simple daily communication. And yet the effect is highly poetical.
Can be done by humans.

2. The language is simple. Any Arabic speaker is able to understand the language very well. Try to understand English which is few hundred year old - and you will see the difference.
Yet there are even more languages older than Arabic that current speakers can still understand.

3. Quran talks about earlier books with confidence. Confirming most of it. But contradicting and correcting it as well with authority.
Can be explained away by my theory.

4. Quran talks about many things about nature. All of them remain scientifically correct (i.e. they do not contradict current scientific knowledge) even 1500 years later. This has to be contrasted with other book from that period (In fact - even a comparison with Hadith is revealing)
Can be explained away by my theory.

5. The one characteristic which I have personally experienced. Once I start reading it - I get a feeling that the Quran is directly talking to me. I have read large number of books in multiple languages and on multiple topics (I am not challenging anyone), and yet that is one experience I never had anywhere else.
Anecdotal. Proves nothing.

While going through all of the above, remember that Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) was an unlettered orphan living in a largely uneducated desert country with little or no civilization. He had minimal or no contact with Christian and Jews. Books were not common at that time. In any case - he had never read any book.

Can be explained away by my theory.



Well, what's my theory, you may ask. It's just this. Instead of bringing Allah into the picture, all you have to believe is that the Qur'an was sent by humans from the future.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 1:14:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Are you aware of the paradox that will take place if time travel is possible? Right now your theory depends on a theory which is - let us say - not well established.

So while the scientist work on time travel, how about reading Quran!
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 1:18:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 12:39:28 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 5/18/2011 10:14:43 AM, baggins wrote:

What are the unique features in Quran. I will try to list some of them. Appreciating some of them may require knowledge of Arabic.

1. Quran is written as both prose and poetry simultaneously! The language is of simple daily communication. And yet the effect is highly poetical.
Can be done by humans.

2. The language is simple. Any Arabic speaker is able to understand the language very well. Try to understand English which is few hundred year old - and you will see the difference.
Yet there are even more languages older than Arabic that current speakers can still understand.

3. Quran talks about earlier books with confidence. Confirming most of it. But contradicting and correcting it as well with authority.
Can be explained away by my theory.

4. Quran talks about many things about nature. All of them remain scientifically correct (i.e. they do not contradict current scientific knowledge) even 1500 years later. This has to be contrasted with other book from that period (In fact - even a comparison with Hadith is revealing)
Can be explained away by my theory.

5. The one characteristic which I have personally experienced. Once I start reading it - I get a feeling that the Quran is directly talking to me. I have read large number of books in multiple languages and on multiple topics (I am not challenging anyone), and yet that is one experience I never had anywhere else.
Anecdotal. Proves nothing.

While going through all of the above, remember that Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) was an unlettered orphan living in a largely uneducated desert country with little or no civilization. He had minimal or no contact with Christian and Jews. Books were not common at that time. In any case - he had never read any book.

Can be explained away by my theory.



Well, what's my theory, you may ask. It's just this. Instead of bringing Allah into the picture, all you have to believe is that the Qur'an was sent by humans from the future.

The no 5 may be anecdotal, as far as I am personally concerned, that is the most important sign. I hope you will agree.

My sincere apologies if I was a bit rude in last post.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 1:48:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 1:14:09 PM, baggins wrote:
Are you aware of the paradox that will take place if time travel is possible? Right now your theory depends on a theory which is - let us say - not well established.

So while the scientist work on time travel, how about reading Quran!

Are there any less paradoxes due to the theory of God? :)
They just come up with more and more implausible explanations of all the bad things happening in the world. If God is good, why these things happen, etc.

Also, in my theory, only inaminate objects have to be sent through time. These things already happen in nature, so it does not seem so far fetched as the theory of a supreme supernatural being.

Reading the Qur'an in Arabic may be a real treat, but let me assure you, it's plain boring to read it in English :)
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 1:50:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 1:18:28 PM, baggins wrote:
At 5/18/2011 12:39:28 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 5/18/2011 10:14:43 AM, baggins wrote:

What are the unique features in Quran. I will try to list some of them. Appreciating some of them may require knowledge of Arabic.

1. Quran is written as both prose and poetry simultaneously! The language is of simple daily communication. And yet the effect is highly poetical.
Can be done by humans.

2. The language is simple. Any Arabic speaker is able to understand the language very well. Try to understand English which is few hundred year old - and you will see the difference.
Yet there are even more languages older than Arabic that current speakers can still understand.

3. Quran talks about earlier books with confidence. Confirming most of it. But contradicting and correcting it as well with authority.
Can be explained away by my theory.

4. Quran talks about many things about nature. All of them remain scientifically correct (i.e. they do not contradict current scientific knowledge) even 1500 years later. This has to be contrasted with other book from that period (In fact - even a comparison with Hadith is revealing)
Can be explained away by my theory.

5. The one characteristic which I have personally experienced. Once I start reading it - I get a feeling that the Quran is directly talking to me. I have read large number of books in multiple languages and on multiple topics (I am not challenging anyone), and yet that is one experience I never had anywhere else.
Anecdotal. Proves nothing.

While going through all of the above, remember that Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) was an unlettered orphan living in a largely uneducated desert country with little or no civilization. He had minimal or no contact with Christian and Jews. Books were not common at that time. In any case - he had never read any book.

Can be explained away by my theory.



Well, what's my theory, you may ask. It's just this. Instead of bringing Allah into the picture, all you have to believe is that the Qur'an was sent by humans from the future.

The no 5 may be anecdotal, as far as I am personally concerned, that is the most important sign. I hope you will agree.
See, if that's the line you take, I can very well say that, let's see, Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is talking directly to me. So, does that make Beethoven God?

My sincere apologies if I was a bit rude in last post.
Were you? I didn't notice.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 1:56:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The Coscmicomicon has already surpassed the Koran in terms of influence, as all nations are unified under it. Whether they like it or not.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 1:57:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Fatihah,

The challenge of the Qur'an has never been to invent a speech that inspires a group of people to conquer any coordinate on the world map. That is merely your assertion. If you want to back up that claim, please name one statement of the beloved Prophet that agrees with you. Name the imams of the four schools of fiqh who supported your assertion. Name any prominent Muslim scholar today who agrees with you. I doubt you can. The challenge of the Qur'an to produce a chapter like its own was directed at the non-Muslims at the times of the Prophet. They called it "tales of the ancients" and a "poem." So, the Qur'an challenged them to write something that can outmatch its language and form. No Jews nor Pagans did it. They could not write the smallest piece of Arabic text that is not classified as a poem, yet has a great melodic rhythm and a well structured text with a significant meaning. But the challenge of the Qur'an has evolved too. At that time it was to outmatch the style - no possible. This time, a book that is unchanged for 14 centuries - unbeaten. A book with no errors coming from pre-modern times - not beaten. You merely limit it to "a challenge to write a text that influences people to conquer a nation." No, there is no tafseer saying that. If there is, please refer me to it.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 2:12:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 1:48:32 PM, Indophile wrote:
Are there any less paradoxes due to the theory of God? :)
They just come up with more and more implausible explanations of all the bad things happening in the world. If God is good, why these things happen, etc.

If you want to debate them, you are welcome.

Also, in my theory, only inaminate objects have to be sent through time. These things already happen in nature,

Would you explain. Are you not confusing quantum uncertainty in measurement of time with time travel.

Reading the Qur'an in Arabic may be a real treat, but let me assure you, it's plain boring to read it in English :)

There is little left for me to say. I might suggest that you read translations while listening to Quran on Arabic. I may comment that initially I used to read translations only (though in Urdu).

The thing is - ultimately your faith is a matter between you and God. It is God - who guides people to the truth when you make the effort. I can only provide some arguments. My arguments will be limited by my ability. (As is obvious by my poor win ratio)

If you find Quran's arguments boring, tell me - do my arguments even have a chance?
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 2:18:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 2:12:37 PM, baggins wrote:
The thing is - ultimately your faith is a matter between you and God.
No, in Islam your religion is not ultimately a relationship between you and God.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 2:23:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 2:18:53 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/18/2011 2:12:37 PM, baggins wrote:
The thing is - ultimately your faith is a matter between you and God.
No, in Islam your religion is not ultimately a relationship between you and God.

Can you explain.

PM me if you don't want to discuss here...
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 2:25:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 2:12:37 PM, baggins wrote:
At 5/18/2011 1:48:32 PM, Indophile wrote:
Are there any less paradoxes due to the theory of God? :)
They just come up with more and more implausible explanations of all the bad things happening in the world. If God is good, why these things happen, etc.

If you want to debate them, you are welcome.
Are you saying the concept of God and the events observed in this world are not paradoxical?

Also, in my theory, only inaminate objects have to be sent through time. These things already happen in nature,

Would you explain. Are you not confusing quantum uncertainty in measurement of time with time travel.
A cursory glance at wikipedia's time travel article shows experiments that hint at time travel. There are proposed particles that can do such things, it seems. Anyway, my point was, at least this phenomenon is scientifically "probable" and can be hoped to be proven. God is beyond science, you agree? So, which theory is more probable?

Reading the Qur'an in Arabic may be a real treat, but let me assure you, it's plain boring to read it in English :)

There is little left for me to say. I might suggest that you read translations while listening to Quran on Arabic. I may comment that initially I used to read translations only (though in Urdu).

I have heard recitals of some of the surahs. Some of them sound good. But have you tried reading it in English?

The thing is - ultimately your faith is a matter between you and God. It is God - who guides people to the truth when you make the effort. I can only provide some arguments. My arguments will be limited by my ability. (As is obvious by my poor win ratio)

We can make arguments as much as we want. That's why these forums are there. I hardly care that much if I win or lose here. I'm not here for that.

If you find Quran's arguments boring, tell me - do my arguments even have a chance?

I don't find the Qur'an's arguments boring, if someone presents them to me in a proper English format. I just said reading the Quran in English is boring. I'm also well aware that this is true of any work of literature. If you read the translation, the essence is lost. Can't help it.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/18/2011 2:31:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 2:23:13 PM, baggins wrote:
Can you explain.

PM me if you don't want to discuss here...
Well basically, you cannot be in a room your entire life and practice Islam. That would be a personal relation between you and God. One of the basic tenets of Islam is to give the obligatory charity, which is done by establishing a form of relationship between you and the poor. You need to treat your parents honorably, you need to behave in the greatest manners you can with any kind of people, and so on. If Islam were a religion of relations between man and God, that would not include charity etc. The Prophet said that whoever dislikes children and does not treat them well, his Faith in God is doubted. When a person told the Prophet that he never kissed his children, the Prophet replied, "He who does not show mercy will not receive mercy." He also said, "He who does not show compassion to the young and respect to the elderly is not one of us."

Basically you need to establish good relations between you and others, and even between other people, such as two brothers who do not get along. Treating non-Muslims properly is also essential if they are on good lines with Muslims. That is how you establish a relationship between you and God. But simply you and God in good relations is not an Islamic teaching. Hiding your Faith and not doing good to others for the sake of your Faith is not Islamic.