Total Posts:39|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

It is time to choose...

baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2011 8:37:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
You have the freedom to choose. You can choose between good and evil. What will you choose.

You have the right to free speech. You can use it anyway you want to.

How will you use it?

Will you use it so as to uphold peace and politeness. Will you use it to increase understanding between the cultures. Will you use it to give respect and gain respect. Will you use it to increase your own understanding and knowledge. Will you use it to make the world, the home all of us share, a better place.

Or will you use it in ways that you know will offend 'others'. Offend them until they turn away from you - seething with rage and hatred. Will you use it such that the people of our world become more and more divided. Will you use it in a way that your own mind becomes close to anything that you might have learned from the people you are mocking.

You have the right to choose.

In Islam, drawing Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) is forbidden. Muslims have followed this tradition for a very long time. If someone draws a picture - Muslims find it highly offending.

Knowing all these things there are people who insist on drawing cartoons of Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him). Often these cartoon are drawn in an offensive manner. When questioned they say that they have right to free speech. They encourage others to exercise this 'right to free speech'.

Is this the correct way to use freedom of speech?

Perhaps what they think is that you will get carried away by the beautiful slogans. You will think that this is being done with a good purpose. The purpose to safeguard free speech.

They hope, you will never realize that there are better ways to use your rights.

You have the right to refuse. Refuse to take part in anything which increases hatred and intolerance in the world.

You have the right to learn. Learn about Islam. Learn about the life of Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him)

And you have the right to free speech. Use it well. When these people come to you, tell them that their actions lead to hatred. Tell them to learn about Islam. Teach them what you have learned about Islam.

You have the right to free speech. No one is taking that from you. But use it in the correct way.

Choose the good and reject the evil. Tell the world that you stand for peace and love.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2011 8:39:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
You can start learning about Islam here...
http://www.islamicity.com...

and here
http://www.islam-guide.com...

A very small biography of Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) by Marmaduke Pickthall.
http://www.tawheednyc.com...

A detailed biography by Saifur Rahman al-Mubarakpuri
http://www.witness-pioneer.org...

A biography you should consider purchasing
http://www.amazon.com...

This thread was in response to the following discussion...
http://www.debate.org...
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2011 9:01:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The self-important tone of this thread makes me want to draw more pictures of Muhammad.

Don't you realise that drawing a cartoon or burning a Qu'ran is a victimless act? Oh, it hurts your feelings? WHY SHOULD I CARE?
Why should anyone respect your feelings or your beliefs?
Often respecting one persons beliefs comes at the cost of disrespecting someone else's beliefs.
Wat do? Respect all beliefs simultaneously?
Should I both respect the beliefs of homophobes and homosexuals at the same time?
Perhaps I should respect the beliefs of paedophiles? I mean, it's the belief that having sex with children is OK... Who am I to disrespect their beliefs?
I believe your church shouldn't have tax-exemption status. Should your religious leaders respect my belief by paying their taxes anyway?

My point is, not all beliefs are equal and because of this we must each choose which beliefs are superior to others. I believe that the right to draw whatever the heck I want to draw is more important than respecting a Religious belief which has no consequence on my life.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2011 9:03:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/21/2011 8:39:09 AM, baggins wrote:
You can start learning about Islam here...
http://www.islamicity.com...

and here
http://www.islam-guide.com...

A very small biography of Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) by Marmaduke Pickthall.
http://www.tawheednyc.com...

A detailed biography by Saifur Rahman al-Mubarakpuri
http://www.witness-pioneer.org...

A biography you should consider purchasing
http://www.amazon.com...



This thread was in response to the following discussion...
http://www.debate.org...

I'll read all your sources tomorrow as I'm genuinely interested.
However, now I'm going to bed to watch Family Guy.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2011 10:01:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/21/2011 9:50:10 AM, Puck wrote:
In Islam, drawing Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) is forbidden.

Then don't mind if I do.
To be against something =/= to limit other people's right to do something. We are against drawing the Prophet - whether you do it or whoever else might want to.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2011 10:14:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/21/2011 10:01:31 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/21/2011 9:50:10 AM, Puck wrote:
In Islam, drawing Prophet Muhammad (Peace on Him) is forbidden.

Then don't mind if I do.
To be against something =/= to limit other people's right to do something. We are against drawing the Prophet - whether you do it or whoever else might want to.:

Mirza, you're making this tantamount to idol worship. Does anyone know what Muhammad looked like? No. So no likeness could possibly even be known to be accurate.

You're really just fanning the flames here. Those who partake are doing it to get a reaction, so why give them the satisfaction by giving them what they want? Ignore them and they'll lose interest.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2011 10:18:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I see the point of drawing Mohammed day as presenting too many targets for radical Muslims to retaliate too. The spark that triggered it off was the rioting and death threats in response to someone portraying Mohammed; if everyone does it, it shows general support for free speech against those who would oppress it. The point of draw Mohammed day isn't to offend Muslims - it's to show that free speech should be upheld even if it offends.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,222
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2011 10:25:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
While learning about the prophet "M" (I won't say the m-word for fear of insulting)

I fear that many students of "M" may naturally draw a picture of a human figure in their mind. While it is not on paper, it definitely exists in the imagination. Since you can not hide thoughts from most gods, where is the solution? Teach that "M" is a vacuum? Empty space? A white blank wall? The picture exists naturally, so we are all doomed.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2011 10:37:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The self-righteous tone of this thread makes me want to vomit. Islam does not exist on an island. Is a Democrat not to use bumper stickers supporting Obama because it could offend conservatives? Offending people is a personal choice, and it's something we need to get used to if we're living in a society with free speech.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2011 10:49:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/21/2011 9:01:53 AM, tvellalott wrote:
I believe that the right to draw whatever the heck I want to draw is more important than respecting a Religious belief which has no consequence on my life.

We are entitled to our belief. And this is your belief.

I guess I have the right to be 'self-righteous'.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2011 11:10:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/21/2011 10:49:48 AM, baggins wrote:
At 5/21/2011 9:01:53 AM, tvellalott wrote:
I believe that the right to draw whatever the heck I want to draw is more important than respecting a Religious belief which has no consequence on my life.

We are entitled to our belief. And this is your belief.

I guess I have the right to be 'self-righteous'.

Look.

I don't care if you sit around in your corner of the room talking to your imaginary friend. Just don't try to convert me into thinking that your friend is real.

Plus, why should you get pissed if other people draw it? They are supposedly going to get the sh!t kicked out of them when the end of the world comes.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2011 11:13:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/21/2011 10:18:38 AM, Kinesis wrote:
I see the point of drawing Mohammed day as presenting too many targets for radical Muslims to retaliate too. The spark that triggered it off was the rioting and death threats in response to someone portraying Mohammed; if everyone does it, it shows general support for free speech against those who would oppress it. The point of draw Mohammed day isn't to offend Muslims - it's to show that free speech should be upheld even if it offends.

What you are ignoring is that the original portrayal was intended to offend and not accidental. I admit they were successful in provoking death threats and arson, but do appreciate the fact that much larger number of people protested peacefully.

You are simply playing into the hands of people who started it.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2011 12:54:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I love it when someone says "I have the right to say what I want!" and the response is "I too have the right to say what I want!".
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2011 12:54:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/21/2011 11:13:48 AM, baggins wrote:
What you are ignoring is that the original portrayal was intended to offend and not accidental.

South Park is often indiscriminately offensive to everyone, of every belief. I'm not ignoring it, but it was a joke, and attempting to suppress free speech because of it demands a response.

I admit they were successful in provoking death threats and arson, but do appreciate the fact that much larger number of people protested peacefully.

You make it sound like the blame lies on the South Park creators instead of the extremists. The protest is in support of free speech against Islamic extremists, not Islamic moderates. And if the moderates are offended, tough luck. That's free speech.

You are simply playing into the hands of people who started it.

How?
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/21/2011 2:32:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Almost everything that someone does can offend someone, somewhere, in some way..

We have free will for a reason. Freedom of expression is one of the most interesting aspects of human life in my opinion. People who oppose my views only help me learn more about myself.

That's one of the reasons why I joined this site.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/22/2011 12:40:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/21/2011 12:54:46 PM, Kinesis wrote:
You make it sound like the blame lies on the South Park creators instead of the extremists. The protest is in support of free speech against Islamic extremists, not Islamic moderates. And if the moderates are offended, tough luck. That's free speech.

Please be clear on this aspect. It does not offend extremists. It hurts all Muslims. The difference is only that a minority resorts to militancy.

South Park creators are responsible for a senseless act - whether anyone reacts with violence or not does not change that. If they are insulting other communities also, that increases the problems. As per the law of the land applicable to them, they have the right to do that. But you too have the right to refuse and protest.

Incidentally, I was not referring to South Park. From what I understand, they were followers - not leaders. The leader was the newspaper Jyllands-Posten which declared that the cartoons were intended to provoke Muslims.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/22/2011 9:21:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Generally, I will stay away from offending religion at all, unless I'm talking to someone I know well. Then I'll usually try to be a bit more lighthearted about it. As it happens, I think people who intentionally mock religion just to annoy others are usually just being a bit of an idiot, whether it is the American Atheists with Christmas, or people like Dawkins with stupid, provocative phrases like "faith heads" and so on. I extend this to Muslims as well.

However, when it comes to some of the scenes we have seen with depicting Mohammed and so on, the value of freedom of speech trumps the unfortunate consequences this has (such as offending people), and the first thing people should say is that those participating in the violence are completely and utterly wrong to do so, and not to try and excuse their behaviour in any way. The correct response to an offensive cartoon is not to destroy property, kill people, threaten people or anything like that. Peacefully protesting against such things is fine, but again, I find many of the things in Islam pretty insulting (Hell, for instance), yet no-one seriously wants there to be peaceful protests against every mosque or church which teaches these things. In the end, I think we have just got to embrace criticisms of even our most treasured beliefs, and only protest by defending them against those who are willing to have a serious discussion about the issues at hand, and this applies equally to Muslims as it does to atheists, Christians, and all other groups, be they religious, political or whatever.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/22/2011 9:22:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
One more time.

We are not trying to limit anyone's right to draw anything that is in their childish fantasies. Feeling no shame about doing something? Feel free. This entire case apparently has the goal to promote freedom of expression, right? The targets are the extremists, not the moderates. However, it is quite clear that the moderates are not going to promote free speech this way. The moderates are supposed to help with the promotion, so what happens is that they will not help with that. Why would common Muslims ever help with drawing a person we love at least as much as our parents?

The point is that if you want to promote free speech, then the target should be the extremists. The moderates should not feel targeted. But that has failed. We obviously not participate in this because we feel targeted. Therefore I ask, why choose this particular way of promoting free speech instead of choosing a better alternative? Why not find a way of getting the Muslims to join the promotion instead of actually turning against it?

We are not whining over the cartoons. In Islamic states people curse God and put themselves beyond the pale of Islam by many means. We are aware that people will always go against core Islamic values. However, what we want is to tell you that this promotion of free speech does not work. If peace and love is to be established between Muslims and non-Muslims, then why isolate Muslims in this pathetic way? Why not ask yourselves about alternatives that Muslims too can use to promote free speech? Do you think we will side with you when you draw our Prophet? Never.

I have personally spoken against the Westboro Baptist Church. I condemn them even though their main targets are neither Muslims nor Islam. I admit they have the right to picket funerals and insult dead soldiers, but I still speak against it. It is insulting and does not create friendship and peace between different people. The same way, I speak against the cartoons not merely because they are cartoons, but because they create a distance between Muslims and non-Muslims, and they turn moderates into what you call extremists. So if we seek peace, love, and friendship, and want to target extremists and not common people, then my message is that we find a common solution to promoting free speech, and not one that simply spreads the fire that is already burning harshly.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/22/2011 9:35:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
What you are ignoring is that the original portrayal was intended to offend and not accidental. I admit they were successful in provoking death threats and arson, but do appreciate the fact that much larger number of people protested peacefully.

You are simply playing into the hands of people who started it.:

And what you're ignoring is that if you ignored it, people would stop doing it. I don't know if you knew this or not, but you can't control the actions of other people. You're going to to have to get used to the idea that some people are going to say things about Muhammad that personally offends you.

Muhammad's a big boy, and so is Allah. I'm sure if they're real and every bit as powerful as they allege, they can fight their battles on their own without ever needing your help.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/22/2011 12:24:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/22/2011 9:21:42 AM, unitedandy wrote:

the first thing people should say is that those participating in the violence are completely and utterly wrong to do so, and not to try and excuse their behaviour in any way.

I agree completely. No excuses whatsoever.

...As it happens, I think people who intentionally mock religion just to annoy others are usually just being a bit of an idiot, whether it is the American Atheists with Christmas, or people like Dawkins with stupid, provocative phrases like "faith heads" and so on. I extend this to Muslims as well.

Just idiots? Don't try to excuse it.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/22/2011 12:38:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/22/2011 9:35:16 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
And what you're ignoring is that if you ignored it, people would stop doing it.

Not necessarily. It might become common.

I don't know if you knew this or not, but you can't control the actions of other people. You're going to to have to get used to the idea that some people are going to say things about Muhammad that personally offends you.

Then please get used to the idea that we will keep trying to protest and to explain to the best of our ability.

Muhammad's a big boy, and so is Allah. I'm sure if they're real and every bit as powerful as they allege, they can fight their battles on their own without ever needing your help.

If God decides to punish a community for their crimes - they are destroyed completely. Don't invite this destruction.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/22/2011 12:40:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If God punishes a community, it certainly wouldn't because of some pseudo-blasphemy like depicting Muhammed.

God doesn't care about such petty things.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/22/2011 12:45:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/22/2011 12:38:23 PM, baggins wrote:
At 5/22/2011 9:35:16 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
And what you're ignoring is that if you ignored it, people would stop doing it.

Not necessarily. It might become common.

Seriously? You can't actually believe this. The only reason this is even a 'thing' is because radical Muslims threatened to kill people for doing it.

Muhammad's a big boy, and so is Allah. I'm sure if they're real and every bit as powerful as they allege, they can fight their battles on their own without ever needing your help.

If God decides to punish a community for their crimes - they are destroyed completely. Don't invite this destruction.

Well, most people don't think your god is real. Even if it is, a god that would reign destruction on a community for drawing pictures is no god I'd want to be associated with.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/22/2011 12:45:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Responding to the OP, I'll choose not assigning any more value and respect to one's religion than I would one's political beliefs. I'm not going to sway from saying what I think because some idiots in the Middle East might get offended.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/22/2011 3:41:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/22/2011 12:24:43 PM, baggins wrote:
At 5/22/2011 9:21:42 AM, unitedandy wrote:

the first thing people should say is that those participating in the violence are completely and utterly wrong to do so, and not to try and excuse their behaviour in any way.

I agree completely. No excuses whatsoever.

...As it happens, I think people who intentionally mock religion just to annoy others are usually just being a bit of an idiot, whether it is the American Atheists with Christmas, or people like Dawkins with stupid, provocative phrases like "faith heads" and so on. I extend this to Muslims as well.

Just idiots? Don't try to excuse it.

Well, I don't try to excuse it, but I don't see a moral equivalence between murder, violence and so on and needlessly offending people. I remember in the case of Salman Rushdie we had apologists for the fatwa based on his offending people. People should always be allowed to criticise anything without fear of violence or censorship, even if it is small-minded or intentionally provocative, and this includes criticising Islam. Anyway, Baggins, I suspect we agree here, my point was just a wider point about the general nature of censoring offence.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/23/2011 12:17:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/22/2011 3:41:22 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Well, I don't try to excuse it, but...

You are excusing it.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.