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Do Christians value their moral sense?

GreatestIam
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5/25/2011 11:26:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Do Christians value their moral sense?

Was Eden, the fall or the elevation of mankind?
A moral sense is what is developed by our study of morals and ethics.
In Eden, this study came in the form of a tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Adam and Eve, as neophytes to life, were not aware of what was good or evil because they had yet to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and had yet to develop morals, until after absorbing the information set out by God for their consumption.
This assumes of course that God wanted man with autonomy and a moral sense.

This gain is clearly spoken of by God when he stated that A & E had become as God's, knowing good and evil. The fact that he threw a sissy fit when we did elevate ourselves is why Christians call Eden the fall of man.

I find it strange that Christians see our gaining of a moral sense as a fall. Christians do not seem to give a high value to their moral sense and think that we were in Eden strictly to obey and not learn that we are autonomous beings.
Yet strangely, most Christians say that they would do exactly as Eve did and that they would not stop her. They value it yet call it a fall.

The Jews and Hebrew interpreted their scriptures as Eden being our elevation. Not our fall. They were quite surprised when Christianity began to read scriptures literally, even the Jewish ones, that the Jews never took literally.

Did Christianity get the story wrong?
Was Eden our elevation and not our fall?
Do you value your moral sense or would you stop Eve if you could?

http://www.mrrena.com...

Regards
DL
Justin_Chains
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5/25/2011 2:24:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/25/2011 11:26:49 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Do Christians value their moral sense?

Was Eden, the fall or the elevation of mankind?
A moral sense is what is developed by our study of morals and ethics.
In Eden, this study came in the form of a tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Adam and Eve, as neophytes to life, were not aware of what was good or evil because they had yet to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and had yet to develop morals, until after absorbing the information set out by God for their consumption.
This assumes of course that God wanted man with autonomy and a moral sense.

This gain is clearly spoken of by God when he stated that A & E had become as God's, knowing good and evil. The fact that he threw a sissy fit when we did elevate ourselves is why Christians call Eden the fall of man.

I find it strange that Christians see our gaining of a moral sense as a fall. Christians do not seem to give a high value to their moral sense and think that we were in Eden strictly to obey and not learn that we are autonomous beings.
Yet strangely, most Christians say that they would do exactly as Eve did and that they would not stop her. They value it yet call it a fall.

The Jews and Hebrew interpreted their scriptures as Eden being our elevation. Not our fall. They were quite surprised when Christianity began to read scriptures literally, even the Jewish ones, that the Jews never took literally.

Did Christianity get the story wrong?
Was Eden our elevation and not our fall?
Do you value your moral sense or would you stop Eve if you could?



http://www.mrrena.com...

Regards
DL

Nice post. Good question for the Christians to answer.
joneszj
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5/25/2011 8:49:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/25/2011 11:26:49 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Do Christians value their moral sense?

Kinda a trick question. The Christian does not value the moral state before they were regenerated. After regeneration they value it.

Was Eden, the fall or the elevation of mankind?

fall

A moral sense is what is developed by our study of morals and ethics.

To Christians the moral sense is deeper then a study. It is 'written on our hearts' so as to say we inherently understand moral good and evil.

In Eden, this study came in the form of a tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Adam and Eve, as neophytes to life, were not aware of what was good or evil because they had yet to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and had yet to develop morals, until after absorbing the information set out by God for their consumption.
This assumes of course that God wanted man with autonomy and a moral sense.

We can say they were given a commandment and that implies that they did have a sense of moral choosing which would require a moral self. Which further can be deduced that they did have a moral compass (understanding) even prior to eating from the tree. Using the term 'study' to describe the progression of moral awareness to the Christian is simply not accurate. The fall is not because they were 'awakened' to moral good and evil but because they broke a commandment God had given them (not to eat of the tree of good and evil). To say God wanted man autonomous is highly debatable and it is my opinion that He did not and to the strictest of the term cannot. To be perfectly autonomous is a trait God alone has. It is more accurate to say that God created man to have a nature that is good therefor not 'autonomous' but instead guided by his own nature.


This gain is clearly spoken of by God when he stated that A & E had become as God's, knowing good and evil. The fact that he threw a sissy fit when we did elevate ourselves is why Christians call Eden the fall of man.

Wrong, it is called the fall because once man sinned their nature became corrupted with sin. The agent whos nature is good is elevated, the agent whos nature is evil is a fall.

I find it strange that Christians see our gaining of a moral sense as a fall. Christians do not seem to give a high value to their moral sense and think that we were in Eden strictly to obey and not learn that we are autonomous beings.
Yet strangely, most Christians say that they would do exactly as Eve did and that they would not stop her. They value it yet call it a fall.

At the most what we gained out of the fall was a corrupt nature. Christians historically have never considered ourselves autonomous- we are either enslaved to sin or enslaved to Christ. Christians say they would have done the same as A&E because of a doctrine known as Federal Headship, Original Sin. That is alot to explain so if your interested just look it up yourself.

The Jews and Hebrew interpreted their scriptures as Eden being our elevation. Not our fall. They were quite surprised when Christianity began to read scriptures literally, even the Jewish ones, that the Jews never took literally.

I know plenty of Jews who do take Genesis literally.

Did Christianity get the story wrong?
Was Eden our elevation and not our fall?
Do you value your moral sense or would you stop Eve if you could?



http://www.mrrena.com...

Regards
DL

Sometimes I think that every thing you post is in someway an attempt to troll. Everything I have read starts out with decent thought provoking questions that any Christian should be able to answer and then you quote from an obscure source and paint Christians as if they 'did't get it' for the past 2 centuries and then continue beating up a notion of Christianity that is not Christianity. Just trying to be honest.
Justin_Chains
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5/25/2011 10:39:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think that Christians don't even truly know what Christianity is or where it truly came from...

I won't say that I do either... But my hunches are just as valid as a Christian's.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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5/25/2011 10:52:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/25/2011 11:26:49 AM, GreatestIam wrote:

Christians do not seem to give a high value to their moral sense and think that we were in Eden strictly to obey and not learn that we are autonomous beings.

Debate?
GreatestIam
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5/26/2011 8:44:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/25/2011 2:24:09 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:

Nice post. Good question for the Christians to answer.

Thank you.

Unfortunately Christians do not do well with their answers and do not really justify their position.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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5/26/2011 9:06:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/25/2011 8:49:49 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 5/25/2011 11:26:49 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Do Christians value their moral sense?

Kinda a trick question. The Christian does not value the moral state before they were regenerated. After regeneration they value it.


Regeneration? What is that?
Do you have scripture on it?


Was Eden, the fall or the elevation of mankind?

fall

A moral sense is what is developed by our study of morals and ethics.

To Christians the moral sense is deeper then a study. It is 'written on our hearts' so as to say we inherently understand moral good and evil.

If we already had the knowledge of good and evil, why would God punish man for learning what he already knew and why would God want to deny his children this much needed information?

In Eden, this study came in the form of a tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Adam and Eve, as neophytes to life, were not aware of what was good or evil because they had yet to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and had yet to develop morals, until after absorbing the information set out by God for their consumption.
This assumes of course that God wanted man with autonomy and a moral sense.

We can say they were given a commandment and that implies that they did have a sense of moral choosing which would require a moral self. Which further can be deduced that they did have a moral compass (understanding) even prior to eating from the tree. Using the term 'study' to describe the progression of moral awareness to the Christian is simply not accurate. The fall is not because they were 'awakened' to moral good and evil but because they broke a commandment God had given them (not to eat of the tree of good and evil).

See above.


To say God wanted man autonomous is highly debatable and it is my opinion that He did not and to the strictest of the term cannot. To be perfectly autonomous is a trait God alone has. It is more accurate to say that God created man to have a nature that is good therefor not 'autonomous' but instead guided by his own nature.

Which is exactly what A & E did. If not, whose nature did they follow?


This gain is clearly spoken of by God when he stated that A & E had become as God's, knowing good and evil. The fact that he threw a sissy fit when we did elevate ourselves is why Christians call Eden the fall of man.

Wrong, it is called the fall because once man sinned their nature became corrupted with sin. The agent whos nature is good is elevated, the agent whos nature is evil is a fall.

Why then did God give A & E evil natures?

I find it strange that Christians see our gaining of a moral sense as a fall. Christians do not seem to give a high value to their moral sense and think that we were in Eden strictly to obey and not learn that we are autonomous beings.
Yet strangely, most Christians say that they would do exactly as Eve did and that they would not stop her. They value it yet call it a fall.

At the most what we gained out of the fall was a corrupt nature.

Yet man has improved on the draconian laws given in scripture.
Seems that our corrupt nature is less corrupt than God.
I E. Most of us know that using genocide is wrong. God did not.
He chose to kill instead of cure. Man, given Gods powers, would cure, not kill.


Christians historically have never considered ourselves autonomous- we are either enslaved to sin or enslaved to Christ. Christians say they would have done the same as A&E because of a doctrine known as Federal Headship, Original Sin. That is alot to explain so if your interested just look it up yourself.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Need I say more?



The Jews and Hebrew interpreted their scriptures as Eden being our elevation. Not our fall. They were quite surprised when Christianity began to read scriptures literally, even the Jewish ones, that the Jews never took literally.

I know plenty of Jews who do take Genesis literally.

Did Christianity get the story wrong?
Was Eden our elevation and not our fall?
Do you value your moral sense or would you stop Eve if you could?



http://www.mrrena.com...

Regards
DL

Sometimes I think that every thing you post is in someway an attempt to troll. Everything I have read starts out with decent thought provoking questions that any Christian should be able to answer and then you quote from an obscure source and paint Christians as if they 'did't get it' for the past 2 centuries and then continue beating up a notion of Christianity that is not Christianity. Just trying to be honest.

If Christians could answer with any kind of logic and reason, I would not be here trying to correct their foolish notions.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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5/26/2011 9:07:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/25/2011 10:39:54 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
I think that Christians don't even truly know what Christianity is or where it truly came from...

I won't say that I do either... But my hunches are just as valid as a Christian's.

I agree.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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5/26/2011 9:10:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/25/2011 10:52:35 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 5/25/2011 11:26:49 AM, GreatestIam wrote:

Christians do not seem to give a high value to their moral sense and think that we were in Eden strictly to obey and not learn that we are autonomous beings.

Debate?

I can try anything once.
I do tend to be short winded though so KIS.

Regards
DL
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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5/26/2011 9:30:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 9:10:30 AM, GreatestIam wrote:

I can try anything once.
I do tend to be short winded though so KIS.

4000 words, three rounds?
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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5/26/2011 9:53:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 9:10:30 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/25/2011 10:52:35 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 5/25/2011 11:26:49 AM, GreatestIam wrote:

Christians do not seem to give a high value to their moral sense and think that we were in Eden strictly to obey and not learn that we are autonomous beings.

Debate?

I can try anything once.
I do tend to be short winded though so KIS.

Regards
DL

You only get short winded when its your turn to defend what you state.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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5/26/2011 11:00:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 9:06:28 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/25/2011 8:49:49 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 5/25/2011 11:26:49 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Do Christians value their moral sense?

Kinda a trick question. The Christian does not value the moral state before they were regenerated. After regeneration they value it.


Regeneration? What is that?
Do you have scripture on it?


Seriously all that takes is a simply Google search on the doctrine of regeneration. Regeneration is the theological term used to describe someone who experiences effectual salvation and in nature becomes a new creature.
A push in the right direction:
http://www.monergism.com... (<--- Highly suggest you read)
http://www.opc.org...

Was Eden, the fall or the elevation of mankind?

fall

A moral sense is what is developed by our study of morals and ethics.

To Christians the moral sense is deeper then a study. It is 'written on our hearts' so as to say we inherently understand moral good and evil.

If we already had the knowledge of good and evil, why would God punish man for learning what he already knew and why would God want to deny his children this much needed information?

He did not punish us for learning! No one in history has ever taught that (that I am aware of)! God punished us for breaking His commandment. As for it being "much needed information" that is not what the context says.

In Eden, this study came in the form of a tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Adam and Eve, as neophytes to life, were not aware of what was good or evil because they had yet to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and had yet to develop morals, until after absorbing the information set out by God for their consumption.
This assumes of course that God wanted man with autonomy and a moral sense.

We can say they were given a commandment and that implies that they did have a sense of moral choosing which would require a moral self. Which further can be deduced that they did have a moral compass (understanding) even prior to eating from the tree. Using the term 'study' to describe the progression of moral awareness to the Christian is simply not accurate. The fall is not because they were 'awakened' to moral good and evil but because they broke a commandment God had given them (not to eat of the tree of good and evil).

See above.


Do you read what I post at all? Are we completely misunderstanding each other? God did not curse man because man learned good and evil, but because man broke Gods commandment. If is clear and obvious that man had a moral understanding before they ate from the tree (it was good to the eyes, Eve explaining to the serpent that God told them not to eat of the tree etc.). As for the tree's this is a great read on the topic: http://www.reformedliterature.com...

To say God wanted man autonomous is highly debatable and it is my opinion that He did not and to the strictest of the term cannot. To be perfectly autonomous is a trait God alone has. It is more accurate to say that God created man to have a nature that is good therefor not 'autonomous' but instead guided by his own nature.

Which is exactly what A & E did. If not, whose nature did they follow?


What I was saying was simply clarifying the way you were using autonomous. Since we seem to agree that A&E had a nature that guided their actions we can say it was their own nature to moved them but also notice that Eve was 'deceived' yet Adam was not (1 Tim. 2:14). The best way I can describe their nature is simply being morally free. They had a moral compass but it was free from an inclination to evil. Once they had disobeyed God that nature was changed from morally free to morally enslaved to evil.


This gain is clearly spoken of by God when he stated that A & E had become as God's, knowing good and evil. The fact that he threw a sissy fit when we did elevate ourselves is why Christians call Eden the fall of man.

Wrong, it is called the fall because once man sinned their nature became corrupted with sin. The agent whos nature is good is elevated, the agent whos nature is evil is a fall.

Why then did God give A & E evil natures?

Tell me, where did God give A&E evil natures..............................

I find it strange that Christians see our gaining of a moral sense as a fall. Christians do not seem to give a high value to their moral sense and think that we were in Eden strictly to obey and not learn that we are autonomous beings.
Yet strangely, most Christians say that they would do exactly as Eve did and that they would not stop her. They value it yet call it a fall.

At the most what we gained out of the fall was a corrupt nature.

Yet man has improved on the draconian laws given in scripture.
Seems that our corrupt nature is less corrupt than God.
I E. Most of us know that using genocide is wrong. God did not.
He chose to kill instead of cure. Man, given Gods powers, would cure, not kill.


This is where (once again) you don't seem to remember what sin is and what a Holy God is. I think the last time we talked it boiled down to this.

Christians historically have never considered ourselves autonomous- we are either enslaved to sin or enslaved to Christ. Christians say they would have done the same as A&E because of a doctrine known as Federal Headship, Original Sin. That is alot to explain so if your interested just look it up yourself.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Need I say more?


Your point is.....? You can rip verses out of context all you want. That does nothing to prove your point. Here: http://turretinfan.blogspot.com... is a great article with that verse IN CONTEXT!

The Jews and Hebrew interpreted their scriptures as Eden being our elevation. Not our fall. They were quite surprised when Christianity began to read scriptures literally, even the Jewish ones, that the Jews never took literally.

I know plenty of Jews who do take Genesis literally.

Did Christianity get the story wrong?
Was Eden our elevation and not our fall?
Do you value your moral sense or would you stop Eve if you could?



http://www.mrrena.com...

Regards
DL

Sometimes I think that every thing you post is in someway an attempt to troll. Everything I have read starts out with decent thought provoking questions that any Christian should be able to answer and then you quote from an obscure source and paint Christians as if they 'did't get it' for the past 2 centuries and then continue beating up a notion of Christianity that is not Christianity. Just trying to be honest.

If Christians could answer with any kind of logic and reason, I would not be here trying to correct their foolish notions.

I gave you what Christians ACTUALLY believe. You are trying to have them defend something they DON'T believe. We put verse and verse together and come to doctrine you take one verse out of context and come up with heresy.

Regards
DL
joneszj
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5/26/2011 11:01:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 9:10:30 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/25/2011 10:52:35 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 5/25/2011 11:26:49 AM, GreatestIam wrote:

Christians do not seem to give a high value to their moral sense and think that we were in Eden strictly to obey and not learn that we are autonomous beings.

Debate?

I can try anything once.
I do tend to be short winded though so KIS.

Regards
DL

Could you try learning Christian theology? (rhetorical)
GreatestIam
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5/26/2011 2:30:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 9:30:05 AM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 5/26/2011 9:10:30 AM, GreatestIam wrote:

I can try anything once.
I do tend to be short winded though so KIS.

4000 words, three rounds?

No rules required but 4000 word does not look like KIS.
Let's go.

Regards
DL
Cliff.Stamp
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5/26/2011 2:33:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 2:30:34 PM, GreatestIam wrote:

No rules required but 4000 word does not look like KIS.
Let's go.

I can make it smaller. I will do up the challenge this evening.
GreatestIam
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5/26/2011 2:55:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
joneszj

"describe someone who experiences effectual salvation and in nature becomes a new creature."

How does one know if they have experienced effectual salvation and can you point to a few who have?

" He did not punish us for learning! No one in history has ever taught that (that I am aware of)! God punished us for breaking His commandment. As for it being "much needed information" that is not what the context says."

Yes but that commandment effectively says that we are not to learn of morals and ethics and in context of the Bible that tells us to be as perfect as God is completely much needed information. This is confirmed by God himself, They have become as Gods, knowing good and evil.

"Once they had disobeyed God that nature was changed from morally free to morally enslaved to evil."

That would mean that they continued to do evil from then on.
Scripture does not say any such thing.
A slave is a slave. You think that A & E shedding their slavery to God for their own autonomy is evil. If man was created to be free then he should and did act as a free man.
Can a man know he is autonomous without ever doing anything autonomously? No he cannot.

"Tell me, where did God give A&E evil natures"

If man's nature does not come from creator God, IYPOV that is, then who created it?

" you don't seem to remember what sin is"

I have an opinion on what sin is. You do not like it because it does not agree with your version.

" Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Need I say more?
Your point is.....? You can rip verses out of context all you want. That does nothing to prove your point."

If you cannot see the point then-------

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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5/26/2011 2:57:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 11:10:10 AM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
Let's all play nice, remember this is about Christianity which is about Christ which is about love and understanding.

Not if the Christ is the same genocidal maniac we find in the O T.

Regards
DL
joneszj
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5/26/2011 3:26:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 2:55:54 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
joneszj

"describe someone who experiences effectual salvation and in nature becomes a new creature."

In short the Christian- through faith the Christian is regenerate (born again). Such a person confesses faith in Christ and actions 'prove' his/her confession.

How does one know if they have experienced effectual salvation and can you point to a few who have?

I was once asked this awhile ago discussing Calvinism with Arminians- you cannot point out anyone and definitively say that person is regenerated (born again). What you can do however is look to their confession and how they live and declare that as evidence of ones faith/regeneration. As for the former part of the question the Christian knows he has been regenerated by receiving the Holy Spirit and it is evidenced in their life.

" He did not punish us for learning! No one in history has ever taught that (that I am aware of)! God punished us for breaking His commandment. As for it being "much needed information" that is not what the context says."

Yes but that commandment effectively says that we are not to learn of morals and ethics and in context of the Bible that tells us to be as perfect as God is completely much needed information. This is confirmed by God himself, They have become as Gods, knowing good and evil.

Actually the link I provided early discussing the paradisal trees differentiates between knowing good and evil and knowing their correlation (as it is implied in the Hebrew). It is actually a very interesting read. Examine the last pericope
http://www.reformedliterature.com...

It goes on to explain that man did not learn good and evil but instead knew the correlation between good-and-evil from an experiential stand point of choosing evil. Quite interesting read!

"Once they had disobeyed God that nature was changed from morally free to morally enslaved to evil."

That would mean that they continued to do evil from then on.

And they did.

Scripture does not say any such thing.

Actually scripture adamantly confesses it examine: http://www.traviscarden.com...

A slave is a slave. You think that A & E shedding their slavery to God for their own autonomy is evil. If man was created to be free then he should and did act as a free man.

Man created with freedom does not negate that he is responsible for his actions. A&E gave up the ability to do good to be enslaved to wickedness

Can a man know he is autonomous without ever doing anything autonomously? No he cannot.

This is why I attacked your using of the word autonomous. Noone is autonomous- ever. In the Biblical context A&E traded and morally nuetral nature for a corrupt one. Autonomy is not a proper word to use when discussing ones nature (I feel atleast). To a limited perspective one can say one is autonomous to the limitations of the subjects nature.

"Tell me, where did God give A&E evil natures"

If man's nature does not come from creator God, IYPOV that is, then who created it?

IYPOV? I never said it did not come from God. It is more accurate to say that mans nature was corrupted by sin not that he received a new nature (that occurs at regeneration). God gave man a nature, man corrupted it.

" you don't seem to remember what sin is"

I have an opinion on what sin is. You do not like it because it does not agree with your version.

I am just trying to the best of my ability to describe the Biblical view of sin. Your version of sin seems to allude that God can simply ignore it which to me implys that God will simply pass over injustice which does not seem to be just meaning your God is unjust.

" Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Need I say more?
Your point is.....? You can rip verses out of context all you want. That does nothing to prove your point."

If you cannot see the point then-------

I am sorry! I failed to provide the link lolz. Here: http://turretinfan.blogspot.com...

Ez 18:20 when ripped out of context is often used to discredit Original Sin; Federal headship but when read in its context is in reference to repentance. Sorry about that lolz!

Regards
DL

)
joneszj
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5/26/2011 10:26:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 2:57:56 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 5/26/2011 11:10:10 AM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
Let's all play nice, remember this is about Christianity which is about Christ which is about love and understanding.

Not if the Christ is the same genocidal maniac we find in the O T.

Regards
DL

You should really quit the Dawkins/Hitchens diet. Actions have motive and reason. You take the actions of the OT and ignore the reasons and then continue to attack. But you refuse to grasp the reasons. Why?
DATCMOTO
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5/27/2011 5:31:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/25/2011 11:26:49 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Do Christians value their moral sense?

Was Eden, the fall or the elevation of mankind?
A moral sense is what is developed by our study of morals and ethics.
In Eden, this study came in the form of a tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Adam and Eve, as neophytes to life, were not aware of what was good or evil because they had yet to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and had yet to develop morals, until after absorbing the information set out by God for their consumption.
This assumes of course that God wanted man with autonomy and a moral sense.

This gain is clearly spoken of by God when he stated that A & E had become as God's, knowing good and evil. The fact that he threw a sissy fit when we did elevate ourselves is why Christians call Eden the fall of man.

I find it strange that Christians see our gaining of a moral sense as a fall. Christians do not seem to give a high value to their moral sense and think that we were in Eden strictly to obey and not learn that we are autonomous beings.
Yet strangely, most Christians say that they would do exactly as Eve did and that they would not stop her. They value it yet call it a fall.

The Jews and Hebrew interpreted their scriptures as Eden being our elevation. Not our fall. They were quite surprised when Christianity began to read scriptures literally, even the Jewish ones, that the Jews never took literally.

Did Christianity get the story wrong?
Was Eden our elevation and not our fall?
Do you value your moral sense or would you stop Eve if you could?



http://www.mrrena.com...

Regards
DL

You believe you can judge God and His Word; you, quite simply, 'know good and evil'..

THAT is the curse; believing you know good from evil..
The Cross.. the Cross.
GreatestIam
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5/27/2011 12:50:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You have judged God yet would deny me the same privilege.
Quite the level playing field.
Christians and their double standards. Sigh.

Regards
DL
DATCMOTO
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5/28/2011 5:05:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/27/2011 12:50:23 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
You have judged God yet would deny me the same privilege.
Quite the level playing field.
Christians and their double standards. Sigh.

Regards
DL

I have certainly not judged God; He has revealed His Goodness and Justice to me.. He and He alone reveals His Character..

What you call a privilege is a DELUSION.
The Cross.. the Cross.
GreatestIam
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5/29/2011 7:22:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/28/2011 5:05:55 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/27/2011 12:50:23 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
You have judged God yet would deny me the same privilege.
Quite the level playing field.
Christians and their double standards. Sigh.

Regards
DL

I have certainly not judged God; He has revealed His Goodness and Justice to me.. He and He alone reveals His Character..

What you call a privilege is a DELUSION.

Just what exactly was directly revealed to you?
No hear say or Bible say now.

Have you had an apotheosis?

Regards
DL