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A serious question to Christians.

Justin_Chains
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5/25/2011 8:40:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Can I ask you Christians one thing? This so called "God" of yours..The biblical God... How do you know that it is the true God and not an entity that is or is similar to Satan? How do you know that you are not buying into an elaborate scheme plotted by Satan. It would seem that taking away the free will that God gave you would be a great goal for Satan to have, seems Christianity does that. To live in fear of total judgement, sounds like a goal of Satan to me. To make people believe that they are born bad or born sinners... Sounds like the work of Satan. To tell people that they will burn in hell if they don't ask to join you... Sounds like a plot Satan would have.

I could go on and on.... But I have made my point.

In my view.... You are selling your soul to the devil. You will become a mindless slave of Satan if you continue down your path.

If you look back throughout the bible it would seem that if you put it into the context of maybe being a book influenced by Satan saying that he was God, instead of being influence by the True God... It all starts to make sense.

How has your God of the bible really helped mankind? Maybe the game between God and Satan was really more like this...

Satan said men should have free will taken away, so that they can be controlled easier... And God said no, free will is good and men will never give up the gift I have given them.

Then God said that Satan may have any of mankind's souls...as long as they give up their free will and souls freely.

Along came the bible, Satan has been gaining souls and followers in the name of "God" ever since.

Satan wants you to become a mindless slave who does not want you to think for yourself or experience enjoyment from free will and the uniqueness or identity of self that god gave you. He wants you to become a cookie cutter slave soul.

God wants you to have free will and experience all the enjoyment and freedom of self that being a unique conscious soul has to offer. Enjoying existence as the unique creation that you are, the unique creation that God made you to be.

Think about it.

I would really like to hear some intelligent answers to this question.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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5/25/2011 8:43:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Good job spamming this post at least 3 times.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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5/25/2011 9:07:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/25/2011 8:40:39 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:

I could go on and on.... But I have made my point.

Yes, and the point is that you apparently know very little about Christianity. Since you are so adamant about your points why not put up a series of debate challenges as you have made at least a half a dozen extreme assertions in the above.
joneszj
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5/25/2011 9:15:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/25/2011 8:40:39 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
Can I ask you Christians one thing? This so called "God" of yours..The biblical God... How do you know that it is the true God and not an entity that is or is similar to Satan? How do you know that you are not buying into an elaborate scheme plotted by Satan. It would seem that taking away the free will that God gave you would be a great goal for Satan to have, seems Christianity does that. To live in fear of total judgement, sounds like a goal of Satan to me. To make people believe that they are born bad or born sinners... Sounds like the work of Satan. To tell people that they will burn in hell if they don't ask to join you... Sounds like a plot Satan would have.

Satan would have people believe that there is no judgement for their actions. He would have them live completely free from the idea of judgement and sin. But really there is nothing much to say on the subject when Gods seat is switched with Satans or any thing else for that matter. When that happens God simply is not God or at the least not sovereign.

I could go on and on.... But I have made my point.

In my view.... You are selling your soul to the devil. You will become a mindless slave of Satan if you continue down your path.

If you look back throughout the bible it would seem that if you put it into the context of maybe being a book influenced by Satan saying that he was God, instead of being influence by the True God... It all starts to make sense.

It makes sense without viewing it as though Satan influenced it.

How has your God of the bible really helped mankind? Maybe the game between God and Satan was really more like this...

Satan said men should have free will taken away, so that they can be controlled easier... And God said no, free will is good and men will never give up the gift I have given them.

Free will is a joke

Then God said that Satan may have any of mankind's souls...as long as they give up their free will and souls freely.

Free will is a joke and has only been 'popular' among 'Christians' for about the past 80-100 years particularly in America.

Along came the bible, Satan has been gaining souls and followers in the name of "God" ever since.

Now why would a sovereign God permit His name to be tarnished as such? Is such a scenario possible? I suppose so. Is it reasonable? Not at all. If God is sovereign then every thing happens as He ordains. The question simply comes down to does God reveal Himself and if He does how is this information reliable if at all?

Satan wants you to become a mindless slave who does not want you to think for yourself or experience enjoyment from free will and the uniqueness or identity of self that god gave you. He wants you to become a cookie cutter slave soul.

Every man is enslaved to something. You have your preference on what you enjoy being free from but being free from God was not enjoyable for me in the slightest. Your free will is limited to your nature and thus you do as your nature deems necessary. My identity is in Christ and my nature was changed from a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness- I like it that way.

God wants you to have free will and experience all the enjoyment and freedom of self that being a unique conscious soul has to offer. Enjoying existence as the unique creation that you are, the unique creation that God made you to be.

Are you now the mouth piece of God? Such people were known as prophets and they proved their merit in various ways one being foretelling the future and if they were wrong they were killed for it. Tell me in detail how you are going to die and how those around you will behave during your death and then you might have some credibility :)

Think about it.

I would really like to hear some intelligent answers to this question.

It sounds like your idea of God is God bending over so that Satan may spank Him. In which case your God is no God at all. The character of God makes sense within the Biblical revelation. Free will is a joke and even most non-theists would agree to that.
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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5/25/2011 10:34:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/25/2011 9:15:14 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 5/25/2011 8:40:39 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
Can I ask you Christians one thing? This so called "God" of yours..The biblical God... How do you know that it is the true God and not an entity that is or is similar to Satan? How do you know that you are not buying into an elaborate scheme plotted by Satan. It would seem that taking away the free will that God gave you would be a great goal for Satan to have, seems Christianity does that. To live in fear of total judgement, sounds like a goal of Satan to me. To make people believe that they are born bad or born sinners... Sounds like the work of Satan. To tell people that they will burn in hell if they don't ask to join you... Sounds like a plot Satan would have.

Satan would have people believe that there is no judgement for their actions. He would have them live completely free from the idea of judgement and sin. But really there is nothing much to say on the subject when Gods seat is switched with Satans or any thing else for that matter. When that happens God simply is not God or at the least not sovereign.

I could go on and on.... But I have made my point.

In my view.... You are selling your soul to the devil. You will become a mindless slave of Satan if you continue down your path.

If you look back throughout the bible it would seem that if you put it into the context of maybe being a book influenced by Satan saying that he was God, instead of being influence by the True God... It all starts to make sense.

It makes sense without viewing it as though Satan influenced it.

How has your God of the bible really helped mankind? Maybe the game between God and Satan was really more like this...

Satan said men should have free will taken away, so that they can be controlled easier... And God said no, free will is good and men will never give up the gift I have given them.

Free will is a joke

Then God said that Satan may have any of mankind's souls...as long as they give up their free will and souls freely.

Free will is a joke and has only been 'popular' among 'Christians' for about the past 80-100 years particularly in America.

Along came the bible, Satan has been gaining souls and followers in the name of "God" ever since.

Now why would a sovereign God permit His name to be tarnished as such? Is such a scenario possible? I suppose so. Is it reasonable? Not at all. If God is sovereign then every thing happens as He ordains. The question simply comes down to does God reveal Himself and if He does how is this information reliable if at all?

Satan wants you to become a mindless slave who does not want you to think for yourself or experience enjoyment from free will and the uniqueness or identity of self that god gave you. He wants you to become a cookie cutter slave soul.

Every man is enslaved to something. You have your preference on what you enjoy being free from but being free from God was not enjoyable for me in the slightest. Your free will is limited to your nature and thus you do as your nature deems necessary. My identity is in Christ and my nature was changed from a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness- I like it that way.

God wants you to have free will and experience all the enjoyment and freedom of self that being a unique conscious soul has to offer. Enjoying existence as the unique creation that you are, the unique creation that God made you to be.

Are you now the mouth piece of God? Such people were known as prophets and they proved their merit in various ways one being foretelling the future and if they were wrong they were killed for it. Tell me in detail how you are going to die and how those around you will behave during your death and then you might have some credibility :)

Think about it.

I would really like to hear some intelligent answers to this question.

It sounds like your idea of God is God bending over so that Satan may spank Him. In which case your God is no God at all. The character of God makes sense within the Biblical revelation. Free will is a joke and even most non-theists would agree to that.

I obviously completely disagree with your view and your take on my view... But I do appreciate your answers and I respect your life choices.

My version of God may be different from your's... But at least you believe in something more than the physical. I respect that.

Thank you for your reply.

Note: This post is not to attack Christians. It is a serious question that I am asking with the hope for intelligent answers. I have Christian friends and family... I might not agree with Christianity or understand the logic behind it, but I am open to understanding it better.
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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5/25/2011 10:45:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/25/2011 9:07:21 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 5/25/2011 8:40:39 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:

I could go on and on.... But I have made my point.

Yes, and the point is that you apparently know very little about Christianity. Since you are so adamant about your points why not put up a series of debate challenges as you have made at least a half a dozen extreme assertions in the above.

Actually I know quite a lot about Christianity. My wife grew up a strict baptist and her entire family is Christian, they talk quite a lot about Christianity and I go to church with them often, out of respect for her family.

Again Cliff, you assume too much about me without asking questions. I have asked Christians similar questions in real life and they can't give me an intelligent logical answer. So, I posted it here in the forums.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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5/26/2011 1:12:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
There is absolutely nothing wrong with forming an opinion without understanding everything about what you are making an opinion of. Often times we make opinions without being aware of our ignorance of a subject.

Instead of someone from the other side feeling offended, and responding as such, it is better in most all cases to clear up any misunderstandings.

Obviously, we should take Justin's post as what he perceives about this subject. Understanding that this is how it looks to him, clearing up any misunderstandings becomes easier, provided both sides are willing to open communication, and have an honest discussion.

Ideally, of course. Common ground must be made. Discussions over the internet on a forum tends to be more difficult than a one on one discussion in real life. Forum communication is less than instantaneous, and I think people are less likely to ask questions as long as they feel that asking questions makes them look stupid.

Whenever I see people working towards establishing a mutual understanding so that they can discuss meaning instead of semantics, I am genuinely impressed. It is the only way to have an intelligent conversation. Communication is nearly non-existent with people. Everyone seems to be talking about something different.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Logic_on_rails
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5/26/2011 2:04:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Let me state this simply - there's not really a concrete way to resolve this. However, I would state that if such a Devil like figure existed, it would also probably be accompanied with a benevolent God. I can't see why the Devil would wish to encourage good actions.

Also, as for the mindless following of the Bible point, while it is true for a great many Christians, there is a great misunderstanding of the Bible on both sides of the debate. I for one do not follow the Bible literally, and take much of my affirmation of a God from philosophical arguments and such.

I believe more in the spirit of the words, rather than the letter of the words. For example, the letter of the law may often contradict the spirit of the law. For example, laws have a purpose - Ie. save lives; now, if said law is broken, yet a life is saved, have we not fulfilled the law's purpose? The reason we follow the letter of the law is a practical matter - purpose, exceptions and such increase the no. of loopholes and actually decrease the effectiveness of a law - nullifying it's purpose.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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5/26/2011 6:43:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/25/2011 10:45:37 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 5/25/2011 9:07:21 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 5/25/2011 8:40:39 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:

I could go on and on.... But I have made my point.

Yes, and the point is that you apparently know very little about Christianity. Since you are so adamant about your points why not put up a series of debate challenges as you have made at least a half a dozen extreme assertions in the above.

Actually I know quite a lot about Christianity. My wife grew up a strict baptist and her entire family is Christian, they talk quite a lot about Christianity and I go to church with them often, out of respect for her family.

Again Cliff, you assume too much about me without asking questions. I have asked Christians similar questions in real life and they can't give me an intelligent logical answer. So, I posted it here in the forums.

Hence your ridiculous post? Also, Cliff has a point, you ought to challenge Christians to a debate. Incidentally, there's no way you'll win.
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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5/26/2011 7:04:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I am really not well versed in debating but would not the burden of proof fall on you Justin? Your asking Christians to disprove something Christians clearly do not believe. Perhaps 'ridiculous' fits perfectly here. You are asking for a logical response to an absurd proposition. Why do you think Satan would behave in the manner you portrait? What you are presupposing is simply incredulous and unfounded. Give me some defensible reasons on your claims about Satan and perhaps then we could have atleast a conversation on it- until then your post is at the least unfounded. To address your post is akin to addressing a topic that says the Bible was inspired by the IPU or spaghetti monster etc. You propose something that really cannot be verified but may be evidenced but you give no evidence for it. Then you go on and pose the question which has no evidence our foundation. I think you have the BoP bro. I could be wrong though because I really do not know the rules debate much at all.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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5/26/2011 7:32:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 7:04:35 AM, joneszj wrote:

I am really not well versed in debating but would not the burden of proof fall on you Justin? Your asking Christians to disprove something Christians clearly do not believe. Perhaps 'ridiculous' fits perfectly here.

Yes, yes and yes.
Cliff.Stamp
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5/26/2011 7:43:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 2:04:27 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:

I can't see why the Devil would wish to encourage good actions.

Assuming an intelligence in the Devil then he could encourage an in the moment good to cause a much greater evil in the future.

Also, as for the mindless following of the Bible point, while it is true for a great many Christians, there is a great misunderstanding of the Bible on both sides of the debate. I for one do not follow the Bible literally, and take much of my affirmation of a God from philosophical arguments and such.

Yes, and of course you can find extreme people on every side of any issue, that means nothing. There are people who will accept Einsteins theory of General Relativity as being absolutely true (it isn't) without being able to do even the basic maths. However from this can you conclude that science is all based on mindless cult following. Of course not, that entire line of agument is silly.
GodSands
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5/26/2011 9:08:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
This is the same post in my forum 'God goodness and glory.' I am just reposting this so maybe more people can read it.

I have thought about this before, and it leads to the glory of man, not to God. In that this is a dangerous and destructive notion and concept. Satan pretending to be God and convincing many of it. For it is false that Satan is pretending to be God, but instead it is rather that instead of Satan pretending to be God, it is Satan not wanting and you to know or believe that he exists. For if God wants us to enjoy our selves as unique creatures, why then would He allow us to be deceived in believing that Satan is God? For surely if that is true, it is therefore false. For you think God wants us to be free and enjoy our unique nature, yet if that is so, why is there a Satan? He is unnecessary, not even relevant in anything, but to deceive us into thinking he is God. Yet further, there is no truth, for if God wants us to be free in our unique nature, isn't that exactly what Christians are doing. Freely choosing to believe that God is God and that Jesus Christ has come to free us from Himself as God, through repentance and faith? So there is no deceiving, but a mere opinion of what is thought to be freedom.

There is no laws or rules, and ever more so there is no law telling us to say there is no laws. In that, it is not wrong to believe that God is God, but rather there is no definition of what should be seen as unique and free, but what is unique and free is relative, opinionated, that there is no right or wrong way.

For God the one you say exists, has not spoken out in giving us laws to live by, but that we should follow our nature, be it that we believe in atheism or that we believe in Jesus Christ. Deceived or not deceived, truth is what is, a form of pluralism that truth can account for any matter of things to be true.

Yet no one lives according to that, even you do not, hence your argument it's self goes against it's self, by saying it is true yet it says it is also false, because I am free to believe it as false and that is what God of which whom you believe in, wants us to be like, totally free in our nature.

In that also, there really is no such thing as sin, yet saying there is no such thing as anything, whatever it may be makes no sense, because by saying there is no such thing as sin proclaims something being true for everyone, instead of a certain someone or a certain group. Therefore it is contradictory.

God, the God of the Bible is righteous, and He has given us His law, so that we might know what sin is. But for your God, and for your Satan who is fooling Christians to believe in Jesus Christ so that he can deprive them of their freedom, there is no standards, for we can only live by our nature, for we are consumed in our bodies, and thus we can only live in them. And our minds can only work and function the way they do, for whatever we think or do, we live by our unique nature that your God has given us. So there, your God has no standard. He is like a father to a son that lets his son do what he wishes, if that be to obey him or not to obey him, neither are right or wrong. And in fact to obey him is also to not to obey him.

The notion that Satan is pretending to be God is absurd, surely you have not thought this through? For it justified your sin for not being sin at all, instead of repenting and believing in Jesus Christ making your sin, like no sin at all for all sin has been paid for through the blood of Jesus Christ. But you must repent and believe in Jesus Christ, for no one wicked will and stand before God, and no one who is not holy will not see the Lord.

The notion of which you believe to be true justifies your sin, yet it makes not sense. In that, it is so that you would rather believe in something that makes no sense, than to believe in something that does, and for you to repent and believe in Jesus Christ. You believe what you do, because it justifies your sin as not being sin at all. For God is holy and good, righteous and loving, thus for those who are wicked and not to the standard of God, cannot dwell with Him, for they must be punished for their sin, punished both in their personal sin, and in their innate sin. That all are born into sin, because all are born children of Adam. And therefore your mind because of your heart, is not of God, not seeking to repent of your sin, but to please yourself in sin. To repent is to have a change of mind, to turn away from sin, and to believe in Jesus Christ is to give up on yourself.

The concept that Satan as the Christian God is absurd! And that the Satan of Christianity is the real God is equally absurd! For since there is no gain or lose in anything, but in mere subjective matters, why doesn't God of which you believe, destroy this pretend God? You may ask the same to me, but by doing so, you would make no sense. For my God, the Christian one gains glory from His children over them over coming and defeating the snares of Satan. And God's glory is our glory also, yet all the glory that we get is given to God. Since He loved us first, you see.

Whereas for your God, we are God in your God's sight, He is not God in his sight. For if he was God in his sight, surely he would desire us to treat him as God in his sight, for it would be right and it would be wrong to do otherwise. For my God is good and righteous, holy and just and also loving. Thus he cannot justify the wicked, and because of His character he has such standards, for if one is truly loving, one will have standards and laws in which they themselves will exist by. For if one is just, they will accept the unjust as just and for my God, for all in which He creates must be compared by Himself. For it would not be just or loving otherwise, creating mankind without a law to live by, it would be wickedness to do otherwise.
Justin_Chains
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5/26/2011 2:23:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 7:04:35 AM, joneszj wrote:
I am really not well versed in debating but would not the burden of proof fall on you Justin? Your asking Christians to disprove something Christians clearly do not believe. Perhaps 'ridiculous' fits perfectly here. You are asking for a logical response to an absurd proposition. Why do you think Satan would behave in the manner you portrait? What you are presupposing is simply incredulous and unfounded. Give me some defensible reasons on your claims about Satan and perhaps then we could have atleast a conversation on it- until then your post is at the least unfounded. To address your post is akin to addressing a topic that says the Bible was inspired by the IPU or spaghetti monster etc. You propose something that really cannot be verified but may be evidenced but you give no evidence for it. Then you go on and pose the question which has no evidence our foundation. I think you have the BoP bro. I could be wrong though because I really do not know the rules debate much at all.

Tell me how considering this possibility or other intelligent possibilities is not logical. It is logical and there is nothing absurd about the questioning. And this is not a debate, sorry, it is a discussion. The possibilities are there. This cannot be denied. My question is how you can logically know for sure that you are not being conned. We are all born bad or sinners. Really? We must ask the biblical God to save us or we will have nothing good in the afterlife or no afterlife. Really? Hand over your personal free will and conform to the biblical "God's" will. Really?

That sounds like a God that you want to believe in? That sounds like the True God to you? Sorry, but you can twist it how you want... Those are some very strong underlying perspectives in Christianity. You can't tell me I'm wrong because I talk to Christians in real life quite often.
Justin_Chains
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5/26/2011 2:33:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 9:08:41 AM, GodSands wrote:
This is the same post in my forum 'God goodness and glory.' I am just reposting this so maybe more people can read it.

I have thought about this before, and it leads to the glory of man, not to God. In that this is a dangerous and destructive notion and concept. Satan pretending to be God and convincing many of it. For it is false that Satan is pretending to be God, but instead it is rather that instead of Satan pretending to be God, it is Satan not wanting and you to know or believe that he exists. For if God wants us to enjoy our selves as unique creatures, why then would He allow us to be deceived in believing that Satan is God? For surely if that is true, it is therefore false. For you think God wants us to be free and enjoy our unique nature, yet if that is so, why is there a Satan? He is unnecessary, not even relevant in anything, but to deceive us into thinking he is God. Yet further, there is no truth, for if God wants us to be free in our unique nature, isn't that exactly what Christians are doing. Freely choosing to believe that God is God and that Jesus Christ has come to free us from Himself as God, through repentance and faith? So there is no deceiving, but a mere opinion of what is thought to be freedom.

There is no laws or rules, and ever more so there is no law telling us to say there is no laws. In that, it is not wrong to believe that God is God, but rather there is no definition of what should be seen as unique and free, but what is unique and free is relative, opinionated, that there is no right or wrong way.

For God the one you say exists, has not spoken out in giving us laws to live by, but that we should follow our nature, be it that we believe in atheism or that we believe in Jesus Christ. Deceived or not deceived, truth is what is, a form of pluralism that truth can account for any matter of things to be true.

Yet no one lives according to that, even you do not, hence your argument it's self goes against it's self, by saying it is true yet it says it is also false, because I am free to believe it as false and that is what God of which whom you believe in, wants us to be like, totally free in our nature.

In that also, there really is no such thing as sin, yet saying there is no such thing as anything, whatever it may be makes no sense, because by saying there is no such thing as sin proclaims something being true for everyone, instead of a certain someone or a certain group. Therefore it is contradictory.

God, the God of the Bible is righteous, and He has given us His law, so that we might know what sin is. But for your God, and for your Satan who is fooling Christians to believe in Jesus Christ so that he can deprive them of their freedom, there is no standards, for we can only live by our nature, for we are consumed in our bodies, and thus we can only live in them. And our minds can only work and function the way they do, for whatever we think or do, we live by our unique nature that your God has given us. So there, your God has no standard. He is like a father to a son that lets his son do what he wishes, if that be to obey him or not to obey him, neither are right or wrong. And in fact to obey him is also to not to obey him.

The notion that Satan is pretending to be God is absurd, surely you have not thought this through? For it justified your sin for not being sin at all, instead of repenting and believing in Jesus Christ making your sin, like no sin at all for all sin has been paid for through the blood of Jesus Christ. But you must repent and believe in Jesus Christ, for no one wicked will and stand before God, and no one who is not holy will not see the Lord.

The notion of which you believe to be true justifies your sin, yet it makes not sense. In that, it is so that you would rather believe in something that makes no sense, than to believe in something that does, and for you to repent and believe in Jesus Christ. You believe what you do, because it justifies your sin as not being sin at all. For God is holy and good, righteous and loving, thus for those who are wicked and not to the standard of God, cannot dwell with Him, for they must be punished for their sin, punished both in their personal sin, and in their innate sin. That all are born into sin, because all are born children of Adam. And therefore your mind because of your heart, is not of God, not seeking to repent of your sin, but to please yourself in sin. To repent is to have a change of mind, to turn away from sin, and to believe in Jesus Christ is to give up on yourself.

The concept that Satan as the Christian God is absurd! And that the Satan of Christianity is the real God is equally absurd! For since there is no gain or lose in anything, but in mere subjective matters, why doesn't God of which you believe, destroy this pretend God? You may ask the same to me, but by doing so, you would make no sense. For my God, the Christian one gains glory from His children over them over coming and defeating the snares of Satan. And God's glory is our glory also, yet all the glory that we get is given to God. Since He loved us first, you see.

Whereas for your God, we are God in your God's sight, He is not God in his sight. For if he was God in his sight, surely he would desire us to treat him as God in his sight, for it would be right and it would be wrong to do otherwise. For my God is good and righteous, holy and just and also loving. Thus he cannot justify the wicked, and because of His character he has such standards, for if one is truly loving, one will have standards and laws in which they themselves will exist by. For if one is just, they will accept the unjust as just and for my God, for all in which He creates must be compared by Himself. For it would not be just or loving otherwise, creating mankind without a law to live by, it would be wickedness to do otherwise.

Sorry dude, but your way of thinking is very unhealthy to me. Very unhealthy.

I will respect your realty though. I will not be judged the way that you believe I will be judged, not in my reality. I hope you are truly confident and happy about your reality and your perspective. You will not judged harshly by the True God in my reality either, but your existence will not be as high in quality as it could have been.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/26/2011 2:43:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Sorry dude, but your way of thinking is very unhealthy to me. Very unhealthy.

I will respect your realty though. I will not be judged the way that you believe I will be judged, not in my reality. I hope you are truly confident and happy about your reality and your perspective. You will not judged harshly by the True God in my reality either, but your existence will not be as high in quality as it could have been.


Your God is unrighteous, unjust and unloving therefore. And thus I do not understand your God.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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5/26/2011 2:56:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 2:23:42 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 5/26/2011 7:04:35 AM, joneszj wrote:
I am really not well versed in debating but would not the burden of proof fall on you Justin? Your asking Christians to disprove something Christians clearly do not believe. Perhaps 'ridiculous' fits perfectly here. You are asking for a logical response to an absurd proposition. Why do you think Satan would behave in the manner you portrait? What you are presupposing is simply incredulous and unfounded. Give me some defensible reasons on your claims about Satan and perhaps then we could have atleast a conversation on it- until then your post is at the least unfounded. To address your post is akin to addressing a topic that says the Bible was inspired by the IPU or spaghetti monster etc. You propose something that really cannot be verified but may be evidenced but you give no evidence for it. Then you go on and pose the question which has no evidence our foundation. I think you have the BoP bro. I could be wrong though because I really do not know the rules debate much at all.

Tell me how considering this possibility or other intelligent possibilities is not logical. It is logical and there is nothing absurd about the questioning. And this is not a debate, sorry, it is a discussion. The possibilities are there. This cannot be denied. My question is how you can logically know for sure that you are not being conned. We are all born bad or sinners. Really? We must ask the biblical God to save us or we will have nothing good in the afterlife or no afterlife. Really? Hand over your personal free will and conform to the biblical "God's" will. Really?

That sounds like a God that you want to believe in? That sounds like the True God to you? Sorry, but you can twist it how you want... Those are some very strong underlying perspectives in Christianity. You can't tell me I'm wrong because I talk to Christians in real life quite often.

The question is a 'logical' question as in it does not contradict itself but I find it to be completely unfounded. Provide some evidence of your claims and perhaps I would find the idea enjoyable to explore. Honestly it just sounds to me that you want a God that would condone your every free will entertainment. When you say "free will" what are you free 'from'? What is it that you are striving to be free of?
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/26/2011 3:01:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 2:56:25 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 5/26/2011 2:23:42 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 5/26/2011 7:04:35 AM, joneszj wrote:
I am really not well versed in debating but would not the burden of proof fall on you Justin? Your asking Christians to disprove something Christians clearly do not believe. Perhaps 'ridiculous' fits perfectly here. You are asking for a logical response to an absurd proposition. Why do you think Satan would behave in the manner you portrait? What you are presupposing is simply incredulous and unfounded. Give me some defensible reasons on your claims about Satan and perhaps then we could have atleast a conversation on it- until then your post is at the least unfounded. To address your post is akin to addressing a topic that says the Bible was inspired by the IPU or spaghetti monster etc. You propose something that really cannot be verified but may be evidenced but you give no evidence for it. Then you go on and pose the question which has no evidence our foundation. I think you have the BoP bro. I could be wrong though because I really do not know the rules debate much at all.

Tell me how considering this possibility or other intelligent possibilities is not logical. It is logical and there is nothing absurd about the questioning. And this is not a debate, sorry, it is a discussion. The possibilities are there. This cannot be denied. My question is how you can logically know for sure that you are not being conned. We are all born bad or sinners. Really? We must ask the biblical God to save us or we will have nothing good in the afterlife or no afterlife. Really? Hand over your personal free will and conform to the biblical "God's" will. Really?

That sounds like a God that you want to believe in? That sounds like the True God to you? Sorry, but you can twist it how you want... Those are some very strong underlying perspectives in Christianity. You can't tell me I'm wrong because I talk to Christians in real life quite often.

The question is a 'logical' question as in it does not contradict itself but I find it to be completely unfounded. Provide some evidence of your claims and perhaps I would find the idea enjoyable to explore. Honestly it just sounds to me that you want a God that would condone your every free will entertainment. When you say "free will" what are you free 'from'? What is it that you are striving to be free of?

Good argument!
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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5/26/2011 3:02:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 2:43:41 PM, GodSands wrote:
Sorry dude, but your way of thinking is very unhealthy to me. Very unhealthy.

I will respect your realty though. I will not be judged the way that you believe I will be judged, not in my reality. I hope you are truly confident and happy about your reality and your perspective. You will not judged harshly by the True God in my reality either, but your existence will not be as high in quality as it could have been.


Your God is unrighteous, unjust and unloving therefore. And thus I do not understand your God.

Funny... That's exactly how I feel about your your God.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/26/2011 3:08:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 3:02:01 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 5/26/2011 2:43:41 PM, GodSands wrote:
Sorry dude, but your way of thinking is very unhealthy to me. Very unhealthy.

I will respect your realty though. I will not be judged the way that you believe I will be judged, not in my reality. I hope you are truly confident and happy about your reality and your perspective. You will not judged harshly by the True God in my reality either, but your existence will not be as high in quality as it could have been.


Your God is unrighteous, unjust and unloving therefore. And thus I do not understand your God.

Funny... That's exactly how I feel about your your God.

How is my God not those things, and your God those things? Openly explain why and how your God is loving, just and righteous in context of a sinner.
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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5/26/2011 3:09:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"The question is a 'logical' question as in it does not contradict itself but I find it to be completely unfounded. Provide some evidence of your claims and perhaps I would find the idea enjoyable to explore. Honestly it just sounds to me that you want a God that would condone your every free will entertainment. When you say "free will" what are you free 'from'? What is it that you are striving to be free of?"

Not free "from" or "of" anything. Just free to exist and live as God created me. To experience the personal journey that will inevitably lead to enlightenment. Maybe not is life, but at some point all souls will gain the intelligence and wisdom to become enlightened. This specific physical life is just one aspect, just one variable towards the inevitable result of enlightenment.

That is my view.

I respect your view, although I do not agree or understand the logic behind it.
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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5/26/2011 3:11:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 3:08:02 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 5/26/2011 3:02:01 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 5/26/2011 2:43:41 PM, GodSands wrote:
Sorry dude, but your way of thinking is very unhealthy to me. Very unhealthy.

I will respect your realty though. I will not be judged the way that you believe I will be judged, not in my reality. I hope you are truly confident and happy about your reality and your perspective. You will not judged harshly by the True God in my reality either, but your existence will not be as high in quality as it could have been.


Your God is unrighteous, unjust and unloving therefore. And thus I do not understand your God.

Funny... That's exactly how I feel about your your God.

How is my God not those things, and your God those things? Openly explain why and how your God is loving, just and righteous in context of a sinner.

Unconditional love and understanding.

Your version of sin and mine would be two completely different things my friend.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/26/2011 3:25:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 3:11:23 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 5/26/2011 3:08:02 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 5/26/2011 3:02:01 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 5/26/2011 2:43:41 PM, GodSands wrote:
Sorry dude, but your way of thinking is very unhealthy to me. Very unhealthy.

I will respect your realty though. I will not be judged the way that you believe I will be judged, not in my reality. I hope you are truly confident and happy about your reality and your perspective. You will not judged harshly by the True God in my reality either, but your existence will not be as high in quality as it could have been.


Your God is unrighteous, unjust and unloving therefore. And thus I do not understand your God.

Funny... That's exactly how I feel about your your God.

How is my God not those things, and your God those things? Openly explain why and how your God is loving, just and righteous in context of a sinner.

Unconditional love and understanding.

Your version of sin and mine would be two completely different things my friend.

What is sin in your view then? To sin is to disobey God, in thought in words or in action. And to not love you God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.

To murder is a sin, to have corrupt thoughts is to sin, bot of which God hates equally because He has uncoditional love, and in that, no matter what we have done, thought or said, or will do, think and say, because of Jesus Christ, all of our sin is gone! For that is true for those who repent and believe, yet it is true also for those who do not believe, they are just out side of Jesus Christ because they have not believed in Him.

So could you explain to me the character of God, and how your God's character applies to man?
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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5/26/2011 4:16:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 3:25:15 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 5/26/2011 3:11:23 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 5/26/2011 3:08:02 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 5/26/2011 3:02:01 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 5/26/2011 2:43:41 PM, GodSands wrote:
Sorry dude, but your way of thinking is very unhealthy to me. Very unhealthy.

I will respect your realty though. I will not be judged the way that you believe I will be judged, not in my reality. I hope you are truly confident and happy about your reality and your perspective. You will not judged harshly by the True God in my reality either, but your existence will not be as high in quality as it could have been.


Your God is unrighteous, unjust and unloving therefore. And thus I do not understand your God.

Funny... That's exactly how I feel about your your God.

How is my God not those things, and your God those things? Openly explain why and how your God is loving, just and righteous in context of a sinner.

Unconditional love and understanding.

Your version of sin and mine would be two completely different things my friend.

What is sin in your view then? To sin is to disobey God, in thought in words or in action. And to not love you God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.

To murder is a sin, to have corrupt thoughts is to sin, bot of which God hates equally because He has uncoditional love, and in that, no matter what we have done, thought or said, or will do, think and say, because of Jesus Christ, all of our sin is gone! For that is true for those who repent and believe, yet it is true also for those who do not believe, they are just out side of Jesus Christ because they have not believed in Him.

So could you explain to me the character of God, and how your God's character applies to man?

To me... God is the original soul. The original consciousness. A soul that has the ability to create another conscious soul from itself. Self reproduction in a sense. This new would would have the same ability and same connection to the memories of it's creator or God at the time of it's creation into existence, but after that it would exist as it's own separate identity with separate memories and experiences. All the souls throughout all the universes were created in this way and all souls are connected through this spiritual energy. Eventually souls gained the ability to fuse with mass in the phenomena that we call physical life. Souls exist separate of mass however and physical life is only temporary. A soul may reincarnate and experience different physical lives as many times as one wishes or one may choose to help guide others for awhile in the spirit world or whatever you want to call it. This let's souls continue to inevitably reach growth and enlightenment towards further knowledge and wisdom, while also providing the framework for eternal tolerance and guidance, not judgement. Sin is an illusion of personal reality to me my friend. All I can do is defend my reality towards the offense of other realities or vice-versa. In m reality, God is not going to judge any of us personally, not in the way that the bible describes at least.

Anyways, in essence God is the first soul and through that... God is the creator, the most intelligent, wise, powerful, understanding, and loving soul in existence. But I don not feel that God is our judge, no more than I feel my mother or father is my judge in this physical life. We are our on judge and our own judgement and or own soul will determine the reality of our existence. Negative energy and Positive energy or key factors towards that in my frame of thinking. Karma.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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5/26/2011 6:12:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Look at all these silly people who think that God loves them, and that love is a requirement for God.

God loves you as much as one might love a passing thought.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/26/2011 6:37:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 4:16:58 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 5/26/2011 3:25:15 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 5/26/2011 3:11:23 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 5/26/2011 3:08:02 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 5/26/2011 3:02:01 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 5/26/2011 2:43:41 PM, GodSands wrote:
Sorry dude, but your way of thinking is very unhealthy to me. Very unhealthy.

I will respect your realty though. I will not be judged the way that you believe I will be judged, not in my reality. I hope you are truly confident and happy about your reality and your perspective. You will not judged harshly by the True God in my reality either, but your existence will not be as high in quality as it could have been.


Your God is unrighteous, unjust and unloving therefore. And thus I do not understand your God.

Funny... That's exactly how I feel about your your God.

How is my God not those things, and your God those things? Openly explain why and how your God is loving, just and righteous in context of a sinner.

Unconditional love and understanding.

Your version of sin and mine would be two completely different things my friend.

What is sin in your view then? To sin is to disobey God, in thought in words or in action. And to not love you God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.

To murder is a sin, to have corrupt thoughts is to sin, bot of which God hates equally because He has unconditional love, and in that, no matter what we have done, thought or said, or will do, think and say, because of Jesus Christ, all of our sin is gone! For that is true for those who repent and believe, yet it is true also for those who do not believe, they are just out side of Jesus Christ because they have not believed in Him.

So could you explain to me the character of God, and how your God's character applies to man?

To me... God is the original soul. The original consciousness. A soul that has the ability to create another conscious soul from itself. Self reproduction in a sense. This new would would have the same ability and same connection to the memories of it's creator or God at the time of it's creation into existence, but after that it would exist as it's own separate identity with separate memories and experiences. All the souls throughout all the universes were created in this way and all souls are connected through this spiritual energy. Eventually souls gained the ability to fuse with mass in the phenomena that we call physical life. Souls exist separate of mass however and physical life is only temporary. A soul may reincarnate and experience different physical lives as many times as one wishes or one may choose to help guide others for awhile in the spirit world or whatever you want to call it. This let's souls continue to inevitably reach growth and enlightenment towards further knowledge and wisdom, while also providing the framework for eternal tolerance and guidance, not judgement. Sin is an illusion of personal reality to me my friend. All I can do is defend my reality towards the offense of other realities or vice-versa. In m reality, God is not going to judge any of us personally, not in the way that the bible describes at least.

Anyways, in essence God is the first soul and through that... God is the creator, the most intelligent, wise, powerful, understanding, and loving soul in existence. But I don not feel that God is our judge, no more than I feel my mother or father is my judge in this physical life. We are our on judge and our own judgement and or own soul will determine the reality of our existence. Negative energy and Positive energy or key factors towards that in my frame of thinking. Karma.

Yeah, I cannot relate that well with this. If sin is an illusion, and I am my own judge, then allow me to do as I please. If I want to murder, or for you, simply put, kill as many people as I wish, allow me to kill who I want. If I wish to steal, or take rather then allow me to take, and if I take away anthers soul by killing them, so what? Aren't I my own judge? For people will object to this of course, but so what, it doesn't mean what I do is wrong, do it? In the same way, our feeling and emotions come before reason, that we believe murder to be wrong because it makes people unhappy and sad, or perhaps angry, yet so what? If I am going to murder someone, why then would I worry about others becoming unhappy or sad or perhaps angry? For it is worse to murder than it is to make someone unhappy or sad or perhaps angry.

Since in your view there is no God which is judgmental towards men, man has no obligation to obey God. But if God is judgmental and also loving (making is worse in mans eyes) then men have an obligation to obey God. Yet all man has fallen short of God that none of his works can save him. There is little use in my explaining the love of God to you, since you believe God to be other that what I believe God to be. You must first repent of your belief, to turn from it and to the notion and concept of the Christian God. To open up your mind to such a possibility that the Christian God exists. Then as that is the foundation to God's character, can I speak about the love of God and mans sinful nature. For if God is love, and men are all criminals, no man get get away without eternal punishment. For it is loving of God to punish, in the same way it is loving of an earthly judge to punish a law breaker. It would be unlawful for a judge to allow a law breaker to walk free with blood on his hands.

So because God is love and loving, we are in trouble with God, and subject to be punished. I almost feel that I must complete the message here by explaining what Christ did for us, so that God can forgive us.
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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5/26/2011 7:24:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/26/2011 6:37:07 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 5/26/2011 4:16:58 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 5/26/2011 3:25:15 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 5/26/2011 3:11:23 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 5/26/2011 3:08:02 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 5/26/2011 3:02:01 PM, Justin_Chains wrote:
At 5/26/2011 2:43:41 PM, GodSands wrote:
Sorry dude, but your way of thinking is very unhealthy to me. Very unhealthy.

I will respect your realty though. I will not be judged the way that you believe I will be judged, not in my reality. I hope you are truly confident and happy about your reality and your perspective. You will not judged harshly by the True God in my reality either, but your existence will not be as high in quality as it could have been.


Your God is unrighteous, unjust and unloving therefore. And thus I do not understand your God.

Funny... That's exactly how I feel about your your God.

How is my God not those things, and your God those things? Openly explain why and how your God is loving, just and righteous in context of a sinner.

Unconditional love and understanding.

Your version of sin and mine would be two completely different things my friend.

What is sin in your view then? To sin is to disobey God, in thought in words or in action. And to not love you God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.

To murder is a sin, to have corrupt thoughts is to sin, bot of which God hates equally because He has unconditional love, and in that, no matter what we have done, thought or said, or will do, think and say, because of Jesus Christ, all of our sin is gone! For that is true for those who repent and believe, yet it is true also for those who do not believe, they are just out side of Jesus Christ because they have not believed in Him.

So could you explain to me the character of God, and how your God's character applies to man?

To me... God is the original soul. The original consciousness. A soul that has the ability to create another conscious soul from itself. Self reproduction in a sense. This new would would have the same ability and same connection to the memories of it's creator or God at the time of it's creation into existence, but after that it would exist as it's own separate identity with separate memories and experiences. All the souls throughout all the universes were created in this way and all souls are connected through this spiritual energy. Eventually souls gained the ability to fuse with mass in the phenomena that we call physical life. Souls exist separate of mass however and physical life is only temporary. A soul may reincarnate and experience different physical lives as many times as one wishes or one may choose to help guide others for awhile in the spirit world or whatever you want to call it. This let's souls continue to inevitably reach growth and enlightenment towards further knowledge and wisdom, while also providing the framework for eternal tolerance and guidance, not judgement. Sin is an illusion of personal reality to me my friend. All I can do is defend my reality towards the offense of other realities or vice-versa. In m reality, God is not going to judge any of us personally, not in the way that the bible describes at least.

Anyways, in essence God is the first soul and through that... God is the creator, the most intelligent, wise, powerful, understanding, and loving soul in existence. But I don not feel that God is our judge, no more than I feel my mother or father is my judge in this physical life. We are our on judge and our own judgement and or own soul will determine the reality of our existence. Negative energy and Positive energy or key factors towards that in my frame of thinking. Karma.

Yeah, I cannot relate that well with this. If sin is an illusion, and I am my own judge, then allow me to do as I please. If I want to murder, or for you, simply put, kill as many people as I wish, allow me to kill who I want. If I wish to steal, or take rather then allow me to take, and if I take away anthers soul by killing them, so what? Aren't I my own judge? For people will object to this of course, but so what, it doesn't mean what I do is wrong, do it? In the same way, our feeling and emotions come before reason, that we believe murder to be wrong because it makes people unhappy and sad, or perhaps angry, yet so what? If I am going to murder someone, why then would I worry about others becoming unhappy or sad or perhaps angry? For it is worse to murder than it is to make someone unhappy or sad or perhaps angry.

Since in your view there is no God which is judgmental towards men, man has no obligation to obey God. But if God is judgmental and also loving (making is worse in mans eyes) then men have an obligation to obey God. Yet all man has fallen short of God that none of his works can save him. There is little use in my explaining the love of God to you, since you believe God to be other that what I believe God to be. You must first repent of your belief, to turn from it and to the notion and concept of the Christian God. To open up your mind to such a possibility that the Christian God exists. Then as that is the foundation to God's character, can I speak about the love of God and mans sinful nature. For if God is love, and men are all criminals, no man get get away without eternal punishment. For it is loving of God to punish, in the same way it is loving of an earthly judge to punish a law breaker. It would be unlawful for a judge to allow a law breaker to walk free with blood on his hands.

So because God is love and loving, we are in trouble with God, and subject to be punished. I almost feel that I must complete the message here by explaining what Christ did for us, so that God can forgive us.

There is no need my friend... I have heard it many many times. Thank you for thoroughly explaining your reality though. When you talk of murdering and committing actions of negativity... You forget that I spoke of Karma. Negative karma will always come back around to effect you.... Either in this life, the after life, or in a different life. You have negative karma to pay for right now from anything negative you have done in your past in this life and before this life, some of it minimal of importance and some of it very important.

Anyways... we believe very differently. My beliefs are like a blend of Hinduism, Spiritualism, and Taoism. Your beliefs are Christian. I have many Christian friends and even though we may not believe the same things, we still enjoy eachother's friendship.

Either way, we will only know when we die.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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5/26/2011 8:19:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
There is no need my friend... I have heard it many many times. Thank you for thoroughly explaining your reality though. When you talk of murdering and committing actions of negativity... You forget that I spoke of Karma. Negative karma will always come back around to effect you.... Either in this life, the after life, or in a different life. You have negative karma to pay for right now from anything negative you have done in your past in this life and before this life, some of it minimal of importance and some of it very important.

Anyways... we believe very differently. My beliefs are like a blend of Hinduism, Spiritualism, and Taoism. Your beliefs are Christian. I have many Christian friends and even though we may not believe the same things, we still enjoy eachother's friendship.

Either way, we will only know when we die.


I appreciate your friendliness and your tendency to not be that argumentative. But, what the means of karma? What is it? I know what it is in the sense that it is where if I do wrong something wrong will happen to me. But how does it work? If I do something wrong, karma justifies my wrong doing and if I do good karma justifies my deeds. I understand that, and in a sense it is true, that if I am kind and generous to people, they will be roughly the same back. Yet although it may justify our good and evil deeds, it does not justify our nature to sin, for I was born to naturally sin against God. Karma does not go to such level, for man is deeper that just the physical in his corruption, for sin has not just effect our bodies and mind, but our soul. Although those out side of Christ do no good, because they do not do good the way that glorifies God and one can only glorify God in Christ, neither good or evil of which we do effect our hearts yet the evil that we are by our nature has effected our hearts. For karma says that the heart of man is relative to his own judgment, but Christianity says our hearts are in judgment of God. Thus it is our hearts that are the problem, for all have fallen short of God.

Karma justifies man through his works and deeds and wrong and evil actions. Yet where is peace in that? For man may say he is justified by karma, yet once he said he is justified (and by what standard is he justified, for karma presupposes that there is a right and wrong, yet it justifies man by mans own right and wrong, given that there is no God who will judge according to a law) he will continue willingly to do what he wishes, in that making karma relative to himself, thus he is able to justify himself. If one was to commit fornication, and he sees it as good, will he be give good karma because of that? Or if one sees fornication as wrong, but he was tempted into fornication, would he be given bad karma? Or would he be given good karma based on that fornication is good no matter what he believes?

Is karma relative or absolute?