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The original Disciples Free Will

Meatros
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5/30/2011 12:38:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Was the free will of the original Disciples violated with regard to the miracles of Jesus, Jesus's teachings, and the resurrection of Jesus?

If not, then why don't modern people have similar evidence?

If I had similar evidence as the early Christians, I would believe....

Yet, I am not provided with such evidence.

Why?
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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5/30/2011 12:58:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 12:38:12 PM, Meatros wrote:
Was the free will of the original Disciples violated with regard to the miracles of Jesus, Jesus's teachings, and the resurrection of Jesus?

If not, then why don't modern people have similar evidence?

If I had similar evidence as the early Christians, I would believe....

Yet, I am not provided with such evidence.

Why?

Most christians would say that the bible is the evidence, and that even people who saw the miracles in jesus time, were sometimes not convinced.

But this is a weak argument, because, for one, we have people like paul who had access to the scripture and teachings, and STILL got a revelation from god. So clearly the bible wouldn't have been enough evidence for paul. And secodnly, apparently during the time of jesus, miracles were sort of a daily occurance, with many prophets doing similar miracles as jesus did, which is why jesus miracles were not convincing. But in an age like today? They certainly would be impressive, if not down right convincing.

When you consider these two points, the aboce arguments that christians present, are so weak that they fail to address the problem and only create new ones.
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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5/30/2011 11:19:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 12:58:14 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/30/2011 12:38:12 PM, Meatros wrote:
Was the free will of the original Disciples violated with regard to the miracles of Jesus, Jesus's teachings, and the resurrection of Jesus?

If not, then why don't modern people have similar evidence?

If I had similar evidence as the early Christians, I would believe....

Yet, I am not provided with such evidence.

Why?

Most christians would say that the bible is the evidence, and that even people who saw the miracles in jesus time, were sometimes not convinced.

But this is a weak argument, because, for one, we have people like paul who had access to the scripture and teachings, and STILL got a revelation from god. So clearly the bible wouldn't have been enough evidence for paul. And secodnly, apparently during the time of jesus, miracles were sort of a daily occurance, with many prophets doing similar miracles as jesus did, which is why jesus miracles were not convincing. But in an age like today? They certainly would be impressive, if not down right convincing.

When you consider these two points, the aboce arguments that christians present, are so weak that they fail to address the problem and only create new ones.

To me most arguments defending the bible as truth are weak. I'm sure that a small percentage of it is derived from true events, but that's it. I have yet to find someone who gives me a logical and reasonable argument in support of the bible being truth.

Even if we seen something today... It might be persuasive, but it would not prove that the event or entity was the True God or by the True God. Only intelligence and wisdom can make the coclusion that there is more to actuality than just mass or matter, and that the spirit follows seperate rules than what humans call matter or mass. At the top of this spiritual food chain or heirarchy is what most people would refer to as God. Others refer to it by other names. It may take many life times before a soul gains enough intelligence or wisdom to move up the next stage of enlightenment. To move closer to what people call God.

An event or an entity appearing will not sufficiently do this, because their is no way to know the true origins or identity of the event or entity.

Only intelligence and wisdom can understand truth.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/31/2011 5:45:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 12:38:12 PM, Meatros wrote:
Was the free will of the original Disciples violated with regard to the miracles of Jesus, Jesus's teachings, and the resurrection of Jesus?

If not, then why don't modern people have similar evidence?

If I had similar evidence as the early Christians, I would believe....

Yet, I am not provided with such evidence.

Why?

John 3:27
To this John replied, "A person can receive only what is given them from heaven.


We have not all received equally, thus:

John 4:48
"Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe."


and

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."


The reason YOU do not have similar evidence is OUR (Christians) fault:

John 14:12
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.


and

Luke 6:40
A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.


Disregarding a miracle is an ETERNAL offence and there is no hope for you; it means you have set your heart against God at ALL (including heaven) costs:

John 15:24
If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.


and

1.John 10:25
Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me,

John 10:24-26
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

John 10:37-39
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
The Cross.. the Cross.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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5/31/2011 6:02:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/30/2011 12:38:12 PM, Meatros wrote:
Was the free will of the original Disciples violated with regard to the miracles of Jesus, Jesus's teachings, and the resurrection of Jesus?

If not, then why don't modern people have similar evidence?

If I had similar evidence as the early Christians, I would believe....

Yet, I am not provided with such evidence.

Why?

I would say because evidence does not save you, it faith. And faith is a gift of God given to those He predestined before the foundations of the earth. The Disciples have no more freedom of will then you or me. We as they are enslaved to sin until God regenerates us. This means that regardless the evidence no one would believe until God changes their nature in which case evidence would become more of a sanctifying matter then a saving one :-)
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
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5/31/2011 7:11:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
tkubok wrote: "Most christians would say that the bible is the evidence, and that even people who saw the miracles in jesus time, were sometimes not convinced.

But this is a weak argument, because, for one, we have people like paul who had access to the scripture and teachings, and STILL got a revelation from god. So clearly the bible wouldn't have been enough evidence for paul. And secodnly, apparently during the time of jesus, miracles were sort of a daily occurance, with many prophets doing similar miracles as jesus did, which is why jesus miracles were not convincing. But in an age like today? They certainly would be impressive, if not down right convincing.

When you consider these two points, the aboce arguments that christians present, are so weak that they fail to address the problem and only create new ones."


Right, these are fairly weak arguments, all throughout Acts and the New Testament it is said that believers can move mountains and such through faith.

Regardless though, if God wants us to believe why not give us the evidence that the first disciples got?
Meatros
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5/31/2011 7:19:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
DATCMOTO wrote: "
John 3:27
To this John replied, "A person can receive only what is given them from heaven.

We have not all received equally, thus:"


Right...

DATCMOTO wrote: "John 4:48
"Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe."

and"


So where are our signs and wonders? This is the point of the question.

DATCMOTO wrote: "John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

The reason YOU do not have similar evidence is OUR (Christians) fault:"


Yeah, that verse doesn't support your contention. That verse is saying that Thomas (IIRC) got empirical evidence. It is also saying that other people believe without the empirical evidence and those are blessed.

It doesn't say that there is any qualitative difference between the two faiths, in other words, Thomas required empirical evidence, he got it, and he still gets to go to heaven.

DATCMOTO wrote: "John 14:12
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

and

Luke 6:40
A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

Disregarding a miracle is an ETERNAL offence and there is no hope for you; it means you have set your heart against God at ALL (including heaven) costs:"


This seems irrelevant to the discussion. No one is disregarding a miracle that we have witnessed. Further, if you are going to say that we are disregarding the resurrection, well, Thomas seems to have as well and because he disbelieved he was provided empirical evidence.

Seems to contradict your point here.

DATCMOTO wrote: "John 15:24
If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.

and

1.John 10:25
Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me,

John 10:24-26
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

John 10:37-39
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves."


I'm curious, do you think these passages are answering my question? If so, how?
Meatros
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5/31/2011 7:22:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
joneszj wrote: "I would say because evidence does not save you, it faith. And faith is a gift of God given to those He predestined before the foundations of the earth."

I'm not sure what you mean, nor how what I think you might mean actually answers the question.

You seem to be suggesting that God created people specifically to go to Hell - is this correct?

joneszj wrote: "The Disciples have no more freedom of will then you or me. We as they are enslaved to sin until God regenerates us. This means that regardless the evidence no one would believe until God changes their nature in which case evidence would become more of a sanctifying matter then a saving one :-)"

Okay, so there is no free will.

Seems like the problem of evil might be of issue here. How do you resolve evil and an omnimax God? Is your God not all good? Or all loving?
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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5/31/2011 8:58:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/31/2011 7:22:11 AM, Meatros wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean, nor how what I think you might mean actually answers the question.

Look up Calvinism.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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5/31/2011 10:15:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/31/2011 7:22:11 AM, Meatros wrote:

You seem to be suggesting that God created people specifically to go to Hell - is this correct?

That's exactly what he's saying.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Note that that's not the only view within Christianity however.

joneszj wrote: "The Disciples have no more freedom of will then you or me. We as they are enslaved to sin until God regenerates us. This means that regardless the evidence no one would believe until God changes their nature in which case evidence would become more of a sanctifying matter then a saving one :-)"

Okay, so there is no free will.

Seems like the problem of evil might be of issue here. How do you resolve evil and an omnimax God? Is your God not all good? Or all loving?

He's probably going to quote something from Romans, possibly Romans 9:20.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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5/31/2011 10:37:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
So where are our signs and wonders? This is the point of the question.:

"A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it" -- Matthew 16:4

I'm curious, do you think these passages are answering my question? If so, how?:

No, of course they aren't answering your questions. He just thinks you'll be impressed by his knowledge of the bible.

There is no reason. Just like there is no reason why God allegedly created the physical world if the afterlife seems to be the only real goal in life. Why not forgo all that nonsense? Was it critical to create deep sea creatures? Was it necessary to create archaens deep in undersea vents?

There's no answer to these questions and there probably never will be.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/4/2011 5:03:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/31/2011 7:19:49 AM, Meatros wrote:
DATCMOTO wrote: "
John 3:27
To this John replied, "A person can receive only what is given them from heaven.

We have not all received equally, thus:"


Right...

DATCMOTO wrote: "John 4:48
"Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe."

and"


So where are our signs and wonders? This is the point of the question.

DATCMOTO wrote: "John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

The reason YOU do not have similar evidence is OUR (Christians) fault:"


Yeah, that verse doesn't support your contention. That verse is saying that Thomas (IIRC) got empirical evidence. It is also saying that other people believe without the empirical evidence and those are blessed.

It doesn't say that there is any qualitative difference between the two faiths, in other words, Thomas required empirical evidence, he got it, and he still gets to go to heaven.

DATCMOTO wrote: "John 14:12
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

and

Luke 6:40
A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

Disregarding a miracle is an ETERNAL offence and there is no hope for you; it means you have set your heart against God at ALL (including heaven) costs:"


This seems irrelevant to the discussion. No one is disregarding a miracle that we have witnessed. Further, if you are going to say that we are disregarding the resurrection, well, Thomas seems to have as well and because he disbelieved he was provided empirical evidence.

Seems to contradict your point here.

DATCMOTO wrote: "John 15:24
If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.

and

1.John 10:25
Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me,

John 10:24-26
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

John 10:37-39
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves."


I'm curious, do you think these passages are answering my question? If so, how?

You need to read the WHOLE of my post before you begin to answer as you are already jumping ahead of yourself..

Yes, I have answered your question.. whether I have answered it to your satisfaction is ANOTHER question.. whether I could EVER answer it to your satisfaction is YET another question!
The Cross.. the Cross.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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6/6/2011 12:11:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
jesus's miracles where seen by believers and unbelievers alike. the people that pushed for his crucifixion where not unaware of his miracles, and yet they chose to reject him. obviously free will is still alive and kicking inspite of being shown miracles. being shown them does not just cause belief in others like some necessary chain of cause and effect.

DATC has done a pretty good job at quoting relevant scripture to the matter of miracles, and can see no way I can post them better again so I wont.

what I will do is share from some of my personal experience on what you ask though. I like you have never seen anything miraculous. and I have prayed to god before to show me something amazing like that though because though I understand "blessed is he who believes and does not see" i still want to see it. shouldn't that verse not be a concern when its already understood I do believe without having seen anything right now? must it be some reason to doubt my faith that I still want to ask got quite persistently to be shown gravity defying miracles?

when this was my view on things though, the treatment of what it means to have been shown a miracle from god is the akin to asking your dog to go fetch once he is trained.
I understood god is not a pet for me to simply call on to do whatever I want he is my lord, but still surely god will show me a miricle when its what I want so bad... if I pray long enough, with enough faith surely god will give me a glimps at something obviously fantastic as a miracle? I wanted it so much...

But God knows what I NEED better than I do, not just in my health, finances, emotional, securities, but what my spiritual needs are as well.
God has the greatest of all love and when he knows my actual NEEDS are best served indifference to my WANTS that is something one can expect to happen.

the real reason I wanted to see a miracle may have honestly had nothing to do with questions of how much faith I have or how true that faith is, and I know it. but that real reason I wanted to see something so extraordinary I have come to accept has everything with my wanting to feel like my life was not so ordinary. are not all the extraordinary people of the bible we are taught lived exceptional lives to follow involved special miracles?
God must have cared so much about Moses he parted the red sea for him, he turned his stick into a living snake (later a crocodile) for him. Daniel had to be so special god let him read the kings mind and see his dreams and interpret them. Job was special he got to talk to god in a whirlwind. what do I have to do to be loved like them, to feel like my life could be as extraordinary as theirs. surely its a question of my faith I thought.

God has still not shown me any miracles, because he knows its best for me that I learn different from thinking the way above, that my life is mediocre or even less than that without his miracles in it, and that his love is the same for all though all are not shown miracles.

and though I have begun to understand this enough now to type this about it, I admit I still have need to learn to this day about how the life god gave me does not need a gravity defying sighting to be of worth. and how all the other reasons (unrelated to the topic of miracles) I might discount it are also wrong. I am gods creation and should not treat my self the way I do so often.

much like 'they would not believe even if they had seen the dead raised' I think it applies here that 'I would not believe in the worth of my own life even if god had made steel float for me' The fundamental problem that keeps me from believing so in the first place would not be changed.

not sure if any of this would apply to you but perhaps it lets you see how the absence of miraculous events in ones life might have a positive affect on growth or aid in acceptance of a much needed fact you should learn to accept.

not all hearts grow to need this though but need the opposite, to see wonders to comprehend gods love. it varies from case to case, I'm sure. vary as much as hearts can vary from each other.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Meatros
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6/6/2011 8:39:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 12:11:22 AM, Marauder wrote:
jesus's miracles where seen by believers and unbelievers alike. the people that pushed for his crucifixion where not unaware of his miracles, and yet they chose to reject him. obviously free will is still alive and kicking inspite of being shown miracles. being shown them does not just cause belief in others like some necessary chain of cause and effect.

DATC has done a pretty good job at quoting relevant scripture to the matter of miracles, and can see no way I can post them better again so I wont.


I'm beginning to think that you and DATC don't understand the question....

what I will do is share from some of my personal experience on what you ask though. I like you have never seen anything miraculous. and I have prayed to god before to show me something amazing like that though because though I understand "blessed is he who believes and does not see" i still want to see it. shouldn't that verse not be a concern when its already understood I do believe without having seen anything right now? must it be some reason to doubt my faith that I still want to ask got quite persistently to be shown gravity defying miracles?

when this was my view on things though, the treatment of what it means to have been shown a miracle from god is the akin to asking your dog to go fetch once he is trained.
I understood god is not a pet for me to simply call on to do whatever I want he is my lord, but still surely god will show me a miricle when its what I want so bad... if I pray long enough, with enough faith surely god will give me a glimps at something obviously fantastic as a miracle? I wanted it so much...

But God knows what I NEED better than I do, not just in my health, finances, emotional, securities, but what my spiritual needs are as well.
God has the greatest of all love and when he knows my actual NEEDS are best served indifference to my WANTS that is something one can expect to happen.


Seems to me that *you* didn't need a miracle for your faith. This is not the case for me and other non believers.

the real reason I wanted to see a miracle may have honestly had nothing to do with questions of how much faith I have or how true that faith is, and I know it. but that real reason I wanted to see something so extraordinary I have come to accept has everything with my wanting to feel like my life was not so ordinary. are not all the extraordinary people of the bible we are taught lived exceptional lives to follow involved special miracles?

I'm actually fine with having an ordinary life, so this is not a concern of mine.

God must have cared so much about Moses he parted the red sea for him, he turned his stick into a living snake (later a crocodile) for him. Daniel had to be so special god let him read the kings mind and see his dreams and interpret them. Job was special he got to talk to god in a whirlwind. what do I have to do to be loved like them, to feel like my life could be as extraordinary as theirs. surely its a question of my faith I thought.

God has still not shown me any miracles, because he knows its best for me that I learn different from thinking the way above, that my life is mediocre or even less than that without his miracles in it, and that his love is the same for all though all are not shown miracles.

and though I have begun to understand this enough now to type this about it, I admit I still have need to learn to this day about how the life god gave me does not need a gravity defying sighting to be of worth. and how all the other reasons (unrelated to the topic of miracles) I might discount it are also wrong. I am gods creation and should not treat my self the way I do so often.

much like 'they would not believe even if they had seen the dead raised' I think it applies here that 'I would not believe in the worth of my own life even if god had made steel float for me' The fundamental problem that keeps me from believing so in the first place would not be changed.


I think you've articulated your position and why you haven't seen a miracle fairly well. Unfortunately it does not explain why I and other non believers have not seen a miracle.

not sure if any of this would apply to you but perhaps it lets you see how the absence of miraculous events in ones life might have a positive affect on growth or aid in acceptance of a much needed fact you should learn to accept.

not all hearts grow to need this though but need the opposite, to see wonders to comprehend gods love. it varies from case to case, I'm sure. vary as much as hearts can vary from each other.

The thing is, I'm content with my life. I don't need to live a special existence or to be 'chosen' or anything like that. Right now, the idea that God could exist is simply outside of my monkey sphere. To me religion is an interesting question. It's philosophy and a fun waste of time.

A miracle would be convincing. If God wanted me to avoid suffering for eternity, a miracle would be sufficient.

So either God wants me to suffer for eternity or he doesn't exist.

A God who wants someone to suffer for eternity is not good God and not worthy of worship anyway. It's like praising Tony Soprano for taking my money instead of breaking my legs - extortion.

So the conclusion that God doesn't exist seems fairly solid.
Marauder
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6/6/2011 7:08:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 8:39:15 AM, Meatros wrote:
At 6/6/2011 12:11:22 AM, Marauder wrote:
jesus's miracles where seen by believers and unbelievers alike. the people that pushed for his crucifixion where not unaware of his miracles, and yet they chose to reject him. obviously free will is still alive and kicking inspite of being shown miracles. being shown them does not just cause belief in others like some necessary chain of cause and effect.

DATC has done a pretty good job at quoting relevant scripture to the matter of miracles, and can see no way I can post them better again so I wont.


I'm beginning to think that you and DATC don't understand the question....

your question was if proof (miracles) deny believers of there free will. if it removes the choice in believing or not believing right?

besides the fact it simply does not follow to start with that introduction of info or an experience or whatever would simply cause a choice in the disciples to believe, evidence is to the contrary that it even had the supposed effect you suggest miracles had on the disciples.
you suggest miracles/ (proof in your mind) made the disciples believe, like cause and effect, they saw so they must believe, there is no choice
but the people who crucified him saw the same things the disciples did. so its obviously not like the straightforward view of cause and effect that purely determined there belief for them, there was the variable of free will involved. if will was not involved Jesus would not have been crucified.

Seems to me that *you* didn't need a miracle for your faith.
I agree
This is not the case for me and other non believers.
I believe that's possible, and there are cases reported of miracles, sometimes even resulting in testimony of new belief. (hearing them always annoys me with envy though)
Although I would never say with certainty about a specific case (even if it were my own) that "this is not the case with me/him/her!" or "this is the case here" as I do comprehend that even I dont have a perfect understanding of myself.

I'm actually fine with having an ordinary life, so this is not a concern of mine.

good for you, I hope few stress out over the same things I do.

I think you've articulated your position and why you haven't seen a miracle fairly well.
thank you :)
Unfortunately it does not explain why I and other non believers have not seen a miracle.
I never thought it would explain all cases, like I said its bound to vary from heart to heart. I I figure it was worth posting though for two reasons 1) who knows mabye though not all are not like my case yours might be more similar than I could have guessed. (its not so oh well) 2) even if your case is not like mine I thought it might open your mind to the other factors that could play a role in wether you see fantastic miracles or not other than the factors of degree of your faith, and determination of your belief. If there were things about myself I was not aware of before (though have grown to learn now) Its a little mind opening to the awarness of the potential of things about myself that I dont know now (but God does) that I will still one day have to grow more to learn better. So mabye theres something about yourself your not that aware of but god is right now. and one day you might learn about it better.

not sure if any of this would apply to you but perhaps it lets you see how the absence of miraculous events in ones life might have a positive affect on growth or aid in acceptance of a much needed fact you should learn to accept.

not all hearts grow to need this though but need the opposite, to see wonders to comprehend gods love. it varies from case to case, I'm sure. vary as much as hearts can vary from each other.

The thing is, I'm content with my life. I don't need to live a special existence or to be 'chosen' or anything like that.
okay, so I did not articulate myself as well as I hoped apparently. It was not a want of mine to fell 'chosen' but a want o feel 'important' as if my existence mattered, even just a little bit, in some way. and though I do say everyone case may be different, I do believe it, very common for people to have a need or want to feel needed, important, effective. It can depresses anyone to feel unneeded, especially geriatrics I think.
Right now, the idea that God could exist is simply outside of my monkey sphere.
I could try to hear you out here but it's actually outside my monkey sphere that the existence of God could be outside anyone monkey sphere. I have tried fathoming it and failed every time.
To me religion is an interesting question. It's philosophy and a fun waste of time.
really?!? read this sermon and tell me it's fun again http://new.gbgm-umc.org...

A miracle would be convincing. If God wanted me to avoid suffering for eternity, a miracle would be sufficient.
not necessarily.

So either God wants me to suffer for eternity or he doesn't exist.
That does not follow as its based on an argent self declaration "I must be shown a miracle or I cannot believe!"

A God who wants someone to suffer for eternity is not good God and not worthy of worship anyway.
if you suffer for our modern understanding of eternity is another question, but if the person suffering deserves it..... then the bringer of that justice is still quite worthy of worship.
It's like praising Tony Soprano for taking my money instead of breaking my legs - extortion.

So the conclusion that God doesn't exist seems fairly solid.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.