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God 3%. Satan 97%. Does God needs a new mark

GreatestIam
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6/6/2011 3:59:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
God 3%. Satan 97%. Does God needs a new marketing man?

Many Christians take the view that the Bible says only a few will be saved. There are verses which show just that. You know, the narrow road and the wide road. It also shows that God would have known ahead of time that his program of salvation would be a marketing disaster. Scripture says he is all knowing. Yet he carried on with his present plan rather than choose a different program which could have been a marketing coup and show him as a successful planer instead of a dismal marketing flop.

Why would God not put forward a successful marketing plan?

It should have been quite easy for him. He had all the answers to any survey question he could have asked in order to gage the best approach to winning the hearts and minds of the population. Omnipotence includes infinite powers of persuasion and any sales or marketing man will know that with that at hand, anyone could deal with any objections to the sale, which is usually the only hindrance to the sale. In this case, selling us on the notion that he is God and should be followed.

Give those same tools to any fool and he would become the new Man/God of the whole world hands down. I am not saying that God is a fool but any marketing firm would fire his rump.

I find it quite strange that at the end of days, Satan will be sitting there in hell gloating over the fact that God has only a small % of all the souls he has created even as scripture says he created all of those souls perfect.
Perfect souls would of course make the perfect choice.
Perfect souls choosing who we are told is the bad guy? What the hell.

Poor God could not get out of heaven in the beginning without losing Satan and 1/3 of God's angels. He could not get out of Eden without losing Adam and Eve. He could not impress all those of Noah's day. Not even the dumb animals and even today, he is losing most of us to secular law instead of Biblical law.

Adam and Eve should have been a trophy for God as they did exactly what scripture says we should all do. Learn of good and evil and emulate him and be as bright as Gods. Yet when Adam and Eve became as Gods, God showed great displeasure and cursed everybody up and down including the earth. This I find really strange but then, God works in mysterious ways.
Perhaps that includes being a loser to Satan.
Can't fight the Bible facts folks.

What do you think?

Does God need a new marketing man to reverse his dismal showing?

Regards
DL
interrogator
Posts: 1,322
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6/6/2011 4:40:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Wrong. The Devil and his servants will be tormented forever. They will not have
time to gloat about anything. And regardless of those stats, which most likely
arent true anyway. There will be a few in this world who will reign forever
with Christ. Since we are born into sin, most humans may never reach salvation.
Why ? Pride of the eye, lust of the flesh. Man is wicked and so are his ways.
It is ones personal choice if they want to be saved or not. It is nobody's fault
but ours if we choose on our own selfish merits to deny Christ and miss
out on eternal life.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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6/6/2011 6:10:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 3:59:15 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
God 3%. Satan 97%. Does God needs a new marketing man?
Why would God not put forward a successful marketing plan?
It isn't a marketing plan or something submitted for our approval. It's a choice to be made, make the right one or there are consequences.

Perfect souls would of course make the perfect choice.
Perfect souls choosing who we are told is the bad guy? What the hell.
Souls may have been created perfect, but man, when given the opportunity isn't.

Adam and Eve should have been a trophy for God as they did exactly what scripture says we should all do.
Didn't they originally do the exact opposite of what God told them??
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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6/7/2011 2:46:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 6:10:28 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/6/2011 3:59:15 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
God 3%. Satan 97%. Does God needs a new marketing man?
Why would God not put forward a successful marketing plan?
It isn't a marketing plan or something submitted for our approval. It's a choice to be made, make the right one or there are consequences.

Perfect souls would of course make the perfect choice.
Perfect souls choosing who we are told is the bad guy? What the hell.
Souls may have been created perfect, but man, when given the opportunity isn't.

Adam and Eve should have been a trophy for God as they did exactly what scripture says we should all do.
Didn't they originally do the exact opposite of what God told them??

What is a man? According to most theological arguments, a man is nothing more than the physical embodiment of their soul. If their soul is perfect, as god says it is, then reflection of it should also be perfect, and no room for imperfection should exist.

The 'original sin' and 'devil is the source of evil' arguments are extremely flawed, so don't bring them into the picture.
I miss the old members.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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6/7/2011 9:14:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/7/2011 2:46:18 AM, Atheism wrote:
What is a man? According to most theological arguments, a man is nothing more than the physical embodiment of their soul.
As best as I can tell, the bible seems to speak of a soul as meaning "life", or "self", whether spiritual or physical. Man is indeed the physical aspect, that allows the soul to interact with the physical world. He comes complete with the ability to think, and make decisions, for himself. How he uses that ability is what makes him imperfect, because he chooses to go against God.

--"If their soul is perfect, as god says it is, then reflection of it should also be perfect, and no room for imperfection should exist."--
If I'm understanding you correctly, your "no room for imperfection should exist", argument is flawed because it fails to consider the existence of free will. If that reflection is given a choice between the right thing, and the wrong thing, unless that reflection is God, there is a possibility that he will choose the wrong thing, thus there is the possibility of imperfection. The only way to reconcile that, and make your argument legitimate, is to either take away free will, or make the soul a perfect but seperate entity, living inside us, that has no ability to interact with, or affect it's host, in any way. I believe the Bible refutes both of those possibilities.
I'm not saying it's not there, but I'm not aware of God saying that souls are perfect. Can you tell me where you see that?? Regardless, based on what I've read, I believe that we are born with a soul, and at birth are innocent (haven't sinned). I'm not sure if that's God's definition of perfect, or not. Our soul is the part of who we are, that will live on past the death of our physical body. As it is part of who we are, and not a seperate entity living inside us, our soul will lose it's innocence, because man is imperfect. Our soul will need to be made innocent again, by Jesus, before we can enter into Heaven.

The 'original sin' and 'devil is the source of evil' arguments are extremely flawed, so don't bring them into the picture.
No disrespect intended but without even knowing specifically what you're referring to, it seems that you're relying on your own understanding of, and your own agreement/disagreement, with the argument. IOW, just because you haven't heard the answer you agree with, or accept, doesn't mean that that answer isn't true, or that a true answer doesn't exist.
GreatestIam
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6/7/2011 10:02:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 4:41:52 PM, interrogator wrote:
Remember, we are our own worst enemy. Self is the greatest adversary.

From your, love to hate comments above, I can see why you would think so.
Fight your ego friend. It is quite ugly.
Most intelligent people do not think that way.
You are reflecting the hate in your heart. You must be a Christian.

Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.
If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

You should think of hell just a bit and recognize that God would not create such an immoral construct. Lose your barbaric tribal mentality. We are in 2011, not 111.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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6/7/2011 10:13:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 6:10:28 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/6/2011 3:59:15 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
God 3%. Satan 97%. Does God needs a new marketing man?
Why would God not put forward a successful marketing plan?
It isn't a marketing plan or something submitted for our approval. It's a choice to be made, make the right one or there are consequences.

Yep. That good old carrot and stick mentality. One would think that God would not act so human. Do you like the freedom of choice God supposedly gave you?

Do it my way or burn forever.
That is a threat and pure coercion and has little to do with free will.


Perfect souls would of course make the perfect choice.
Perfect souls choosing who we are told is the bad guy? What the hell.
Souls may have been created perfect, but man, when given the opportunity isn't.

Scripture does not agree with you. Oh ye of little faith.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Follow the logic trail if there is any logic or reason in you.
If perfect man can become imperfect then so can you imaginary God.


Adam and Eve should have been a trophy for God as they did exactly what scripture says we should all do.
Didn't they originally do the exact opposite of what God told them??

Yes. They made the perfect choice and chose knowledge and became as Gods instead of remaining as bright as cows.

They showed that man is a better man with a moral sense than without.
you will know that the Jews and Hebrew though Eden man's elevation and not a fall. Christianity called it a fall when they plagiarized the Jewish books.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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6/7/2011 10:15:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/7/2011 2:46:18 AM, Atheism wrote:
At 6/6/2011 6:10:28 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/6/2011 3:59:15 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
God 3%. Satan 97%. Does God needs a new marketing man?
Why would God not put forward a successful marketing plan?
It isn't a marketing plan or something submitted for our approval. It's a choice to be made, make the right one or there are consequences.

Perfect souls would of course make the perfect choice.
Perfect souls choosing who we are told is the bad guy? What the hell.
Souls may have been created perfect, but man, when given the opportunity isn't.

Adam and Eve should have been a trophy for God as they did exactly what scripture says we should all do.
Didn't they originally do the exact opposite of what God told them??

What is a man? According to most theological arguments, a man is nothing more than the physical embodiment of their soul. If their soul is perfect, as god says it is, then reflection of it should also be perfect, and no room for imperfection should exist.

The 'original sin' and 'devil is the source of evil' arguments are extremely flawed, so don't bring them into the picture.

Well said.
Nice to see a good mind.

Regards
DL
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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6/7/2011 2:54:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/7/2011 10:13:29 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Yep. That good old carrot and stick mentality. One would think that God would not act so human. Do you like the freedom of choice God supposedly gave you?

I have no problem with the concept of having to face consequences for making the wrong decisions, or doing what I know to be the wrong thing. Throughout life, decisions have consequences that are proportional to the benefit. Why do you find it surprising, or unreasonable, that this same principle would apply here??

Do it my way or burn forever.
That is a threat and pure coercion and has little to do with free will.

You're free to rationalize it as you wish. Atheists seem to be the only ones who have a problem with the benefit/consequence principle, and only in this case. Why??
Because they HAVE to portray God as unfair. It's part of the dogma they use to gain converts to their own religion of denying religion. "God is unfair", is the atheists own version of the old carrot and stick mentality.

Scripture does not agree with you. Oh ye of little faith.
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

His work is perfect. His work includes how He will deal with imperfect man, who makes himself imperfect. It is assumed by the writer that the reader would have read enough to know that man is imperfect, thus no need to get into that area. IOW, even the most basic understanding of Christianity, makes the idea of man being perfect according to the Bible, laughable. This verse does not say, or even imply, that man is perfect. In fact, it mentions judgement, but why would He need judgement if He says that we're perfect?? If that's not enough, let's go to the very next verse Deuteronomy 32:5:

"They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation."

"They" have corrupted "themselves", is proof that A) we are not perfect B) we create our own problems. That doesn't sound to me like man is being portrayed as a perfect being.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Evil and imperfection are two entirely different concepts. Can you find anything that actually deals with the subject matter??

If perfect man can become imperfect then so can you imaginary God.

The perfect man has yet to be shown, so this conclusion is nothing more than opinion.

you will know that the Jews and Hebrew though Eden man's elevation and not a fall. Christianity called it a fall when they plagiarized the Jewish books.

That makes no sense when you consider that they were kicked out of the Garden. Plagiarized??
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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6/7/2011 3:09:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/7/2011 10:13:29 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 6/6/2011 6:10:28 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/6/2011 3:59:15 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
God 3%. Satan 97%. Does God needs a new marketing man?
Why would God not put forward a successful marketing plan?
It isn't a marketing plan or something submitted for our approval. It's a choice to be made, make the right one or there are consequences.

Yep. That good old carrot and stick mentality. One would think that God would not act so human. Do you like the freedom of choice God supposedly gave you?

Do it my way or burn forever.
That is a threat and pure coercion and has little to do with free will.


Perfect souls would of course make the perfect choice.
Perfect souls choosing who we are told is the bad guy? What the hell.
Souls may have been created perfect, but man, when given the opportunity isn't.

Scripture does not agree with you. Oh ye of little faith.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Follow the logic trail if there is any logic or reason in you.
If perfect man can become imperfect then so can you imaginary God.


Adam and Eve should have been a trophy for God as they did exactly what scripture says we should all do.
Didn't they originally do the exact opposite of what God told them??

Yes. They made the perfect choice and chose knowledge and became as Gods instead of remaining as bright as cows.

They showed that man is a better man with a moral sense than without.
you will know that the Jews and Hebrew though Eden man's elevation and not a fall. Christianity called it a fall when they plagiarized the Jewish books.

Regards
DL


I used to do the whole bolding my entire response deal too. I was told that it was quite obnoxious. Just something to think about, carry on. :)
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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6/8/2011 8:00:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/7/2011 2:54:17 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/7/2011 10:13:29 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
Yep. That good old carrot and stick mentality. One would think that God would not act so human. Do you like the freedom of choice God supposedly gave you?

I have no problem with the concept of having to face consequences for making the wrong decisions, or doing what I know to be the wrong thing.

Wow. Quite the mind that has no problem doing the wrong thing.

Throughout life, decisions have consequences that are proportional to the benefit. Why do you find it surprising, or unreasonable, that this same principle would apply here??

Because an infinite penalty for doing something and being punished without benefit to anyone is then just given out of a sense of cruelty.

Do it my way or burn forever.
That is a threat and pure coercion and has little to do with free will.

You're free to rationalize it as you wish. Atheists seem to be the only ones who have a problem with the benefit/consequence principle, and only in this case. Why??

I am not an atheist. I just do not believe in your brand of God.

Why? Because to be able to sin for just 120 years and then suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 years is not justice.

What does that do to your "proportional to the benefit."


Because they HAVE to portray God as unfair.

I just present the facts. God is the one showing a sense of unfairness.

It's part of the dogma they use to gain converts to their own religion of denying religion. "God is unfair", is the atheists own version of the old carrot and stick mentality.


I cannot speak for atheists but I see them as just thinking that the stick is disproportionate to the carrot. It definitely is.

Scripture does not agree with you. Oh ye of little faith.
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

His work is perfect. His work includes how He will deal with imperfect man, who makes himself imperfect. It is assumed by the writer that the reader would have read enough to know that man is imperfect, thus no need to get into that area. IOW, even the most basic understanding of Christianity, makes the idea of man being perfect according to the Bible, laughable. This verse does not say, or even imply, that man is perfect. In fact, it mentions judgement, but why would He need judgement if He says that we're perfect?? If that's not enough, let's go to the very next verse Deuteronomy 32:5:

"They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation."

"They" have corrupted "themselves", is proof that A) we are not perfect B) we create our own problems. That doesn't sound to me like man is being portrayed as a perfect being.

You see sin as somehow not being part of perfection but this following shows that to reach the ultimate perfection, we must sin so that we can repent. God thinks that repenting is part of reaching this perfection and as scripture says, even he repented in Noah's day.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You just do not understand the concept.
As above so below.
Think of evolution for a bit.
It works only because it creates errors in DNA replication. We can see those errors as evil but without them, the perfection of the evolutionary system would fail and man would likely not have ever come to be.

We are evolving perfection. Always moving to a more perfect state over time.


Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Evil and imperfection are two entirely different concepts. Can you find anything that actually deals with the subject matter??

If perfect man can become imperfect then so can you imaginary God.

The perfect man has yet to be shown, so this conclusion is nothing more than opinion.

Then you disagree with God's conclusion.
he thinks all the souls he creates are perfect. He would have it no other way.


you will know that the Jews and Hebrew though Eden man's elevation and not a fall. Christianity called it a fall when they plagiarized the Jewish books.

That makes no sense when you consider that they were kicked out of the Garden. Plagiarized??

And why not boot them out.
Do you expect that a student would remain in school after graduating?

Plagiarize is a certainty.
Google virgin birth to see how many predated Jesus.

Listening to this might help you in terms of history.

http://www.dailymotion.com...

Regards
DL
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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6/9/2011 5:52:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
@greatest

--"Wow. Quite the mind that has no problem doing the wrong thing."--

I said I have no problem "facing the consequences" if I do the wrong thing.

--"Because an infinite penalty for doing something and being punished without benefit to anyone is then just given out of a sense of cruelty."--

Only those who choose to accept God's grace, go to Heaven. Disagreeing with God's brand of justice doesn't change it.

--"I am not an atheist. I just do not believe in your brand of God."--

Your username seems to be meant to ridicule God so I naturally assumed you were.
My apologies.

Why? Because to be able to sin for just 120 years and then suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 years is not justice.

How long should you be able to sin before you would think it fair??

--"What does that do to your "proportional to the benefit."--

Not a thing, as far as I can see. It's just your personal reasoning for saying that God is unfair.

--"I just present the facts. God is the one showing a sense of unfairness. I cannot speak for atheists but I see them as just thinking that the stick is disproportionate to the carrot. It definitely is."--

Again, just your shared opinion that God's sense of justice should mirror yours, if not it's unfair.

--"You see sin as somehow not being part of perfection but this following shows that to reach the ultimate perfection, we must sin so that we can repent. God thinks that repenting is part of reaching this perfection...
2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."--

You're reading something into this verse that isn't there, and it seems that you're looking at this concept backwards. The goal isn't, "to sin so that we can repent", the goal is to not sin, but since we do, forgiveness is available. Repentance does not equal perfection. God does not want us to sin, that theme is clear throughout the Bible. He does not see sin as part of perfection, He sees it as something that must be atoned for.
Let me ask you this, if God sees man as perfect, why would He require repentance, and why wouldn't everyone go to Heaven just the way they are??

--"You just do not understand the concept."--

It's you that can't see that what you're arguing here goes against even the basics of Christianity, yet you're arguing that it's what my religion teaches.
You're comparison with evolution is apples vs. oranges.

--"Then you disagree with God's conclusion.
he thinks all the souls he creates are perfect. He would have it no other way."--

We agree that they are "created" perfect, but they are a part of who a person is, and that person will undoubtedly become imperfect.

--"And why not boot them out.
Do you expect that a student would remain in school after graduating?"--

They weren't given a mission to complete so where do you get the idea that their job was done, and it was time for them to move on??
GreatestIam
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6/9/2011 9:59:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Adults, who are as Gods, do not need to remain under God's thumb.

The Jews and Hebrews recognize Eden as a right of passage.
Christians prefer to think that God would curse all of mankind as well as the earth just because man disobeyed God the on time.

Even as that notion goes against what the Bible says in terms of us only being responsible for our own sins.

You go ahead and believe and follow the moral low ground.
I prefer the high ground.

The whole story of A & E is of man gaining a moral sense.
Keep looking for yours.

Regards
DL
medic0506
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6/9/2011 5:57:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/9/2011 9:59:38 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
You go ahead and believe and follow the moral low ground.
I prefer the high ground.
The whole story of A & E is of man gaining a moral sense.
Keep looking for yours.

If looking down your nose at, and making a great effort to make fun of an entire group of people, just because you don't like, or understand their beliefs is your idea of the moral high ground, no thanks. I'll stick with my source of morality. Thanks for the discussion.
God Bless
GreatestIam
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1/13/2016 4:17:04 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/2/2016 1:58:34 PM, Wylted wrote:
Again. Satan has made God his biotch

The one with the best morals rules then. Satan.

Regards
DL