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Question for materialists /naturalists

tvellalott
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6/12/2011 6:09:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/12/2011 5:40:22 PM, dricedow wrote:
Where does morality come from?

Well, we get a sense of right and wrong from our built-in instincts, upbringing and emotions; a combination of nature and nurture. We see cooperation and genuine empathy in most upper-level sentient beings, dogs, cats, horses, monkeys, meercats and so on.
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Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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6/12/2011 6:29:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/12/2011 6:09:08 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/12/2011 5:40:22 PM, dricedow wrote:
Where does morality come from?

Well, we get a sense of right and wrong from our built-in instincts, upbringing and emotions; a combination of nature and nurture. We see cooperation and genuine empathy in most upper-level sentient beings, dogs, cats, horses, monkeys, meercats and so on.

Man, what the hell are you doing?
dricedow
Posts: 30
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6/12/2011 11:15:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/12/2011 6:29:42 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Morality comes from nowhere, because the whole notion of "moral facts" is a big illusion.

Can you explain what you mean by: "moral facts" is a big illusion?
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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6/13/2011 12:15:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/12/2011 5:40:22 PM, dricedow wrote:
Where does morality come from?

What if the answer is I don't know ? Is your reply then It comes from God ?

God of gaps = Point to something we don't understand and say God did it.

1) Tide goes in, tide goes out
2) You can't explain that
3) Therefore God exists
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/13/2011 12:33:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/12/2011 11:15:24 PM, dricedow wrote:

Can you explain what you mean by: "moral facts" is a big illusion?

He means that morality is a construct, it can not be claimed to be an inherent truth. Thus for example while you could argue for reasons not to steal you can not say it is wrong to steal as there is no absolute/objective way to merit the universal ought.
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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6/14/2011 12:16:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/12/2011 5:40:22 PM, dricedow wrote:
Where does morality come from?

Morality is just ones opinion. Objective morality is an illusion. Our opinions are formed by instincts, our upbringing, our experiences, etc.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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6/14/2011 12:28:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/12/2011 6:29:12 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 6/12/2011 6:09:08 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/12/2011 5:40:22 PM, dricedow wrote:
Where does morality come from?

Well, we get a sense of right and wrong from our built-in instincts, upbringing and emotions; a combination of nature and nurture. We see cooperation and genuine empathy in most upper-level sentient beings, dogs, cats, horses, monkeys, meercats and so on.

Man, what the hell are you doing?

Explaining where our sense of right and wrong comes from?

At 6/12/2011 6:29:42 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Morality comes from nowhere, because the whole notion of "moral facts" is a big illusion.

I don't see how this contradicts why I wrote. When people pop up here and ask "Where does morality come from?" they are always asking about our 'conscious'. I'm just nipping it in the bud. You know my position and know that it doesn't contradict the above.
There are no objective moral facts, because there is nothing inherently right or wrong about anything.
Subjective morals (i.e. one's based on our conscious, rather than logic) are useless for the same reason that we call out people for appealing to emotion in an argument.

Problem?
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Grape
Posts: 989
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6/14/2011 12:31:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/12/2011 5:40:22 PM, dricedow wrote:
Where does morality come from?

There are certain behaviors that are inherently more rational, logically consistent, conducive to human welfare, etc. than others. Some principles are axiomatic and cannot be ignored by rationally acting beings. 'Morality' in the sense that most people think of it does not exist.
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
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6/14/2011 10:23:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/12/2011 5:40:22 PM, dricedow wrote:
Where does morality come from?

God's nature.

We are just lucky that God's nature didn't entail that murdering and raping was a moral good, AMIRITE?
dricedow
Posts: 30
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6/15/2011 6:33:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/14/2011 10:23:48 AM, Meatros wrote:
At 6/12/2011 5:40:22 PM, dricedow wrote:
Where does morality come from?

God's nature.

We are just lucky that God's nature didn't entail that murdering and raping was a moral good, AMIRITE?

True dat. The only people that would claim the opposite are taking the Bible out of context. i.e. ignorance
dricedow
Posts: 30
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6/15/2011 6:35:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/13/2011 12:15:06 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 6/12/2011 5:40:22 PM, dricedow wrote:
Where does morality come from?

What if the answer is I don't know ? Is your reply then It comes from God ?

God of gaps = Point to something we don't understand and say God did it.

1) Tide goes in, tide goes out
2) You can't explain that
3) Therefore God exists

I'm sorry, I was not able to decipher your answer. Please be more specific.
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
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6/16/2011 8:28:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 6:33:55 PM, dricedow wrote:
At 6/14/2011 10:23:48 AM, Meatros wrote:
At 6/12/2011 5:40:22 PM, dricedow wrote:
Where does morality come from?

God's nature.

We are just lucky that God's nature didn't entail that murdering and raping was a moral good, AMIRITE?

True dat. The only people that would claim the opposite are taking the Bible out of context. i.e. ignorance

?

If you say so. Your admittance that morality is essentially the whim of luck is enough for me to not look further into it.
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
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6/16/2011 8:28:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 6:35:22 PM, dricedow wrote:
At 6/13/2011 12:15:06 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 6/12/2011 5:40:22 PM, dricedow wrote:
Where does morality come from?

What if the answer is I don't know ? Is your reply then It comes from God ?

God of gaps = Point to something we don't understand and say God did it.

1) Tide goes in, tide goes out
2) You can't explain that
3) Therefore God exists

I'm sorry, I was not able to decipher your answer. Please be more specific.

He's saying you are probably going to appeal to ignorance.

BTW - what are your thoughts on the Joshua Challenge?
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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6/16/2011 3:44:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Objective morality does not exist because an unconscious object with no mind cannot develop or use a moral compass. So to a purely objective reality, morality does not exist.

Morality is the stance of right or wrong within a subjective conscious lifeform. Morality only exists in the subjective mind, for the subjective mind is the only place morality can be understood, developed, and acted on.
dricedow
Posts: 30
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6/17/2011 12:12:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/16/2011 8:28:35 AM, Meatros wrote:

BTW - what are your thoughts on the Joshua Challenge?

It seems to be an appeal to emotion. However:
1. If we are rearranged pond scum, then does it matter what one "mammal" does to another?
2. Someone could use this scenario to argue that the Christian worldview is inconsistent.
Merda
Posts: 322
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6/17/2011 7:18:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/17/2011 12:12:48 AM, dricedow wrote:
At 6/16/2011 8:28:35 AM, Meatros wrote:

BTW - what are your thoughts on the Joshua Challenge?

It seems to be an appeal to emotion. However:
1. If we are rearranged pond scum, then does it matter what one "mammal" does to another?

Depends on who you're asking.
My manwich!
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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6/17/2011 12:45:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/17/2011 12:12:48 AM, dricedow wrote:
At 6/16/2011 8:28:35 AM, Meatros wrote:

BTW - what are your thoughts on the Joshua Challenge?

It seems to be an appeal to emotion. However:
1. If we are rearranged pond scum, then does it matter what one "mammal" does to another?
2. Someone could use this scenario to argue that the Christian worldview is inconsistent.

1. Not "Are", its "Were". Past tense. Im not pond scum anymore, and i doubt you are either. We have evolved past that, and theres nothing wrong in seeing meanings and having standards to live up to.

Thats like saying "If we were 6 year olds once, then does it matter whether we scream and cry and shout and wail around when we dont get what we wanted when we are adults?"

2. Yes, they could. Joshua is an utterly immoral lunatic chap, and the fact that Christians make excuses to dismiss this, is utterly inconsistent.
dricedow
Posts: 30
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6/18/2011 12:38:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/17/2011 12:45:24 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 6/17/2011 12:12:48 AM, dricedow wrote:
At 6/16/2011 8:28:35 AM, Meatros wrote:

BTW - what are your thoughts on the Joshua Challenge?

It seems to be an appeal to emotion. However:
1. If we are rearranged pond scum, then does it matter what one "mammal" does to another?
2. Someone could use this scenario to argue that the Christian worldview is inconsistent.

1. Not "Are", its "Were". Past tense. Im not pond scum anymore, and i doubt you are either. We have evolved past that, and theres nothing wrong in seeing meanings and having standards to live up to.

Thats like saying "If we were 6 year olds once, then does it matter whether we scream and cry and shout and wail around when we dont get what we wanted when we are adults?"

2. Yes, they could. Joshua is an utterly immoral lunatic chap, and the fact that Christians make excuses to dismiss this, is utterly inconsistent.

On what grounds are you calling Joshua "immoral"? Has "evolution" instilled in us some type of absolute moral code? What gives you the right to judge the actions of someone else from a different culture?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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6/18/2011 4:22:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/18/2011 12:38:31 AM, dricedow wrote:
What gives you the right to judge the actions of someone else from a different culture?

You're a cultural relativist? :S
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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6/18/2011 12:26:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/18/2011 12:38:31 AM, dricedow wrote:
At 6/17/2011 12:45:24 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 6/17/2011 12:12:48 AM, dricedow wrote:
At 6/16/2011 8:28:35 AM, Meatros wrote:

BTW - what are your thoughts on the Joshua Challenge?

It seems to be an appeal to emotion. However:
1. If we are rearranged pond scum, then does it matter what one "mammal" does to another?
2. Someone could use this scenario to argue that the Christian worldview is inconsistent.

1. Not "Are", its "Were". Past tense. Im not pond scum anymore, and i doubt you are either. We have evolved past that, and theres nothing wrong in seeing meanings and having standards to live up to.

Thats like saying "If we were 6 year olds once, then does it matter whether we scream and cry and shout and wail around when we dont get what we wanted when we are adults?"

2. Yes, they could. Joshua is an utterly immoral lunatic chap, and the fact that Christians make excuses to dismiss this, is utterly inconsistent.

On what grounds are you calling Joshua "immoral"? Has "evolution" instilled in us some type of absolute moral code? What gives you the right to judge the actions of someone else from a different culture?

I am calling joshua immoral, on todays standards.

Evoluution has instilled in us some basic moral codes, but they are not "absolute". I don't even understand what you mean by "absolute moral code".

The same right I have to judge someone else from another country, if and when they break a law in my country. If someone comes from some country that has legalized rape, and they come into our country and commit rape, do we not have the right to judge, charge, and punish them?
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
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6/18/2011 1:13:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/17/2011 12:12:48 AM, dricedow wrote:
At 6/16/2011 8:28:35 AM, Meatros wrote:

BTW - what are your thoughts on the Joshua Challenge?

It seems to be an appeal to emotion. However:
1. If we are rearranged pond scum, then does it matter what one "mammal" does to another?
2. Someone could use this scenario to argue that the Christian worldview is inconsistent.

So you would slaughter the child, then, right?

1. It matters to me if some other mammal attacks me.
2. I would say they could argue the Christian is inconsistent with his/her worldview.
dricedow
Posts: 30
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6/18/2011 8:19:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/18/2011 4:22:57 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/18/2011 12:38:31 AM, dricedow wrote:
What gives you the right to judge the actions of someone else from a different culture?

You're a cultural relativist? :S

No I am not. I am asking tkubok why he feels he has the right to judge the actions of other people.
dricedow
Posts: 30
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6/18/2011 8:28:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/18/2011 12:26:36 PM, tkubok wrote:

I am calling joshua immoral, on todays standards.

Evoluution has instilled in us some basic moral codes, but they are not "absolute". I don't even understand what you mean by "absolute moral code".

The same right I have to judge someone else from another country, if and when they break a law in my country. If someone comes from some country that has legalized rape, and they come into our country and commit rape, do we not have the right to judge, charge, and punish them?

Are you saying that today's standards of "right and wrong" (actions) in this country are correct and other standards of "right and wrong" are incorrect? If so, how do you know?
Lionheart
Posts: 520
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6/18/2011 8:51:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/18/2011 8:28:11 PM, dricedow wrote:
At 6/18/2011 12:26:36 PM, tkubok wrote:

I am calling joshua immoral, on todays standards.

Evoluution has instilled in us some basic moral codes, but they are not "absolute". I don't even understand what you mean by "absolute moral code".

The same right I have to judge someone else from another country, if and when they break a law in my country. If someone comes from some country that has legalized rape, and they come into our country and commit rape, do we not have the right to judge, charge, and punish them?

Are you saying that today's standards of "right and wrong" (actions) in this country are correct and other standards of "right and wrong" are incorrect? If so, how do you know?

Morals come from emotion. I hope that answers your question efficiently.
"Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power."


- Lionheart -
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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6/18/2011 10:32:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/18/2011 8:28:11 PM, dricedow wrote:
At 6/18/2011 12:26:36 PM, tkubok wrote:

I am calling joshua immoral, on todays standards.

Evoluution has instilled in us some basic moral codes, but they are not "absolute". I don't even understand what you mean by "absolute moral code".

The same right I have to judge someone else from another country, if and when they break a law in my country. If someone comes from some country that has legalized rape, and they come into our country and commit rape, do we not have the right to judge, charge, and punish them?

Are you saying that today's standards of "right and wrong" (actions) in this country are correct and other standards of "right and wrong" are incorrect? If so, how do you know?

I know, because i have compared, understand, and accept my countries standards of "Right and Wrong". Interestingly enough, many countries have similar standards today, so clearly im not alone.

Let me ask you this. Do you believe that Raping women, in any circumstance, is wrong? If so, then ho do you know?
dricedow
Posts: 30
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6/19/2011 12:19:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/18/2011 10:32:47 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 6/18/2011 8:28:11 PM, dricedow wrote:
At 6/18/2011 12:26:36 PM, tkubok wrote:

I am calling joshua immoral, on todays standards.

Evoluution has instilled in us some basic moral codes, but they are not "absolute". I don't even understand what you mean by "absolute moral code".

The same right I have to judge someone else from another country, if and when they break a law in my country. If someone comes from some country that has legalized rape, and they come into our country and commit rape, do we not have the right to judge, charge, and punish them?

Are you saying that today's standards of "right and wrong" (actions) in this country are correct and other standards of "right and wrong" are incorrect? If so, how do you know?

I know, because i have compared, understand, and accept my countries standards of "Right and Wrong". Interestingly enough, many countries have similar standards today, so clearly im not alone.

Let me ask you this. Do you believe that Raping women, in any circumstance, is wrong? If so, then ho do you know?

Are you saying that as long as someone compares, understands and accepts their countries standards of "Right and Wrong", then those are the correct standards of "Right and Wrong"? (for example: early 1800's U.S. style slavery)

No, raping women is wrong. Galatians 5:19
Dmetal
Posts: 7
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6/19/2011 2:34:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Well, my morals come from the all-powerful sky god who created the universe. That's why I stoned a group of little kids who disrespected their fathers last week, and sold my wife (who's my property) into slavery after I slaughtered her dad and raped her to get my son. It's hard to follow, but you'll get what I'm saying. It'll make sense when the devil is smashing your genitals in a vice in hell (because you can still feel everything, even though you have no brain).