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To be Agnostic, is to be Smart

Extremely-Far-Right
Posts: 248
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6/14/2011 12:01:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Personally, I just think its a stalemate whenever it comes to religion and/or religious arguments (debates). (I know that posting this will possibly get heat from atheists and people who believe in God, but whenever it comes to topics such as the beggining of the Earth, I believe both sides have no logical argument.) I will explain why.

To all People who believe in God:

How can you prove that God created Earth? Where is the evidence to say it wasn't another entity? Where is the definitive evidence for this? Let's then support your thesis that God did indeed create Earth. Since we all know that matter can't be created or destroyed, where did God come from? What created God?

To all Atheists:

How can you support the notion and say that something just existed, and was just there? Something can't just exist, it had to come from somewhere. So, if you go back and look at all of the scientific theories to the beggining of the Earth, you will notice that they all come up short. The reason is, is because

a) Even Stephen Hawking noticed that he could only go back so far and use mathematical equations using "imaginary numbers" to support the beggining of Earth. Isn't it likely that something more "complex" than science and/or a deity created all that we know (but it doesn't have to be limited to God). After all, if he only used "imaginary numbers" in his equations, his conclusion has to be imaginary.

b) We as humans, still don't know everything about the beggining of the Earth, and/or evidence of how the universe first started. We are getting closer, with more scientific discoveries, but we will truly never know, because evidence for these kinds of topics gets lost in time.

Conclusion:

I personally think it's a stalemate whenever it comes to topics such as this. Neither side has enough evidence to prove the other that they are wrong. Can Atheists prove that God and/or another deity doesn't exist? No. (They can certainly make it more obvious to show that he/she doesn't exist, but can't prove to a certain doubt that he/she doesn't) and people that believe in God, can't prove that God exists, simply through epiphanies and reiligous scripts.

The same thing goes for the beginning of the world. Creationists, can't prove that God created Earth (other than the Bible and/or other religious texts), and Atheists can't prove that he (or any other deity) didn't create Earth.

I'm open to discussion. And would like to know if any other Agnostics on this website take the same stance on these issues as I do.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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6/14/2011 12:11:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
"Religion:Atheist"

.........
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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6/14/2011 12:15:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/14/2011 12:13:51 AM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
At 6/14/2011 12:11:47 AM, phantom wrote:
"Religion:Atheist"

.........

What...? You have me wondering what your intending to say.

You right this long thing about how it's smarter to be agnostic than atheist, but your profile says your atheist..
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
belle
Posts: 4,113
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6/14/2011 12:17:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
personally, i think the only reasonable position is to be agnostic on the existence of the external world. after all, you can't prove without a doubt that its there.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Extremely-Far-Right
Posts: 248
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6/14/2011 12:17:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/14/2011 12:15:56 AM, phantom wrote:
At 6/14/2011 12:13:51 AM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
At 6/14/2011 12:11:47 AM, phantom wrote:
"Religion:Atheist"

.........

What...? You have me wondering what your intending to say.

You right this long thing about how it's smarter to be agnostic than atheist, but your profile says your atheist..

I thought I changed it. Weird.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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6/14/2011 2:23:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Utter failure.

At 6/14/2011 12:01:46 AM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
To all Atheists:

How can you support the notion and say that something just existed, and was just there? Something can't just exist, it had to come from somewhere. So, if you go back and look at all of the scientific theories to the beggining of the Earth, you will notice that they all come up short. The reason is, is because

Not all atheists believe this. Infact, this has nothing to do with atheism. You can believe that Aliens from another dimension created the universe, and still be atheist.

Your argument here has no bearing to atheism or agnosticism whatsoever. Sorry, but your argument fails.
a) Even Stephen Hawking noticed that he could only go back so far and use mathematical equations using "imaginary numbers" to support the beggining of Earth. Isn't it likely that something more "complex" than science and/or a deity created all that we know (but it doesn't have to be limited to God). After all, if he only used "imaginary numbers" in his equations, his conclusion has to be imaginary.

You mean "Beginning of the universe" and not earth, right?

However, your argument fails here. First off, imaginary numbers have concrete, useful applications in real life mathematics, engineering and physics. They are not "imaginary" in the same sense as an invisible unicorn. When they are applied to actual science, they produce actual, physical conclusions that are not imaginary.

Secondly, Its not "Likely" at all, anymore than faeries being responsible for the flowers to bloom is likely.

b) We as humans, still don't know everything about the beggining of the Earth, and/or evidence of how the universe first started. We are getting closer, with more scientific discoveries, but we will truly never know, because evidence for these kinds of topics gets lost in time.

Actually, we do know quite a bit about the beginning of the earth, and now im starting to think that you didnt get the two words mixed up. However, you have failed. In science, especially in Cosmology, no evidence is getting "Lost" in time. Its not like, 1000 years from now, we will no longer be able to observe the background cosmic radiation.

But yes, you are correct on one thing. We will never truly "Know", because "know" implies that we have absolute knowledge that this is right, and science never operates that way.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/14/2011 2:24:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The God question is more of a riddle that needs to be solved, rather than something to debate over.

People who debate over the existence of God are really quite silly. The problem is that God can mean anything.

No, the agnostic stance is not the intelligent stance. The intelligent stance is the "Ignostic" stance. Some conceptions of god clearly do not exist, while others are evident. Most of the time, when people argue over the existence of God, they look like complete idiots to me. Neither side has any idea what the other is talking about, because they are usually too stupid to get on the same page before discussing something.

If you are going to debate God, define God.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/14/2011 4:59:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/14/2011 12:01:46 AM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
Personally, I just think its a stalemate whenever it comes to religion and/or religious arguments (debates). (I know that posting this will possibly get heat from atheists and people who believe in God, but whenever it comes to topics such as the beggining of the Earth, I believe both sides have no logical argument.) I will explain why.

To all People who believe in God:

How can you prove that God created Earth? Where is the evidence to say it wasn't another entity? Where is the definitive evidence for this? Let's then support your thesis that God did indeed create Earth. Since we all know that matter can't be created or destroyed, where did God come from? What created God?

To all Atheists:

How can you support the notion and say that something just existed, and was just there? Something can't just exist, it had to come from somewhere. So, if you go back and look at all of the scientific theories to the beggining of the Earth, you will notice that they all come up short. The reason is, is because

a) Even Stephen Hawking noticed that he could only go back so far and use mathematical equations using "imaginary numbers" to support the beggining of Earth. Isn't it likely that something more "complex" than science and/or a deity created all that we know (but it doesn't have to be limited to God). After all, if he only used "imaginary numbers" in his equations, his conclusion has to be imaginary.

b) We as humans, still don't know everything about the beggining of the Earth, and/or evidence of how the universe first started. We are getting closer, with more scientific discoveries, but we will truly never know, because evidence for these kinds of topics gets lost in time.

Conclusion:

I personally think it's a stalemate whenever it comes to topics such as this. Neither side has enough evidence to prove the other that they are wrong. Can Atheists prove that God and/or another deity doesn't exist? No. (They can certainly make it more obvious to show that he/she doesn't exist, but can't prove to a certain doubt that he/she doesn't) and people that believe in God, can't prove that God exists, simply through epiphanies and reiligous scripts.

The same thing goes for the beginning of the world. Creationists, can't prove that God created Earth (other than the Bible and/or other religious texts), and Atheists can't prove that he (or any other deity) didn't create Earth.

I'm open to discussion. And would like to know if any other Agnostics on this website take the same stance on these issues as I do.

You are simply confusing knowledge for relationship; true faith in God is a relationship with Him initiated by Him.

Sure there is knowledge in the world that elevates or makes you feel secure etc but do you really think we don't know the difference?
The Cross.. the Cross.
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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6/14/2011 5:09:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/14/2011 12:01:46 AM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
a) Even Stephen Hawking noticed that he could only go back so far and use mathematical equations using "imaginary numbers" to support the beggining of Earth. Isn't it likely that something more "complex" than science and/or a deity created all that we know (but it doesn't have to be limited to God). After all, if he only used "imaginary numbers" in his equations, his conclusion has to be imaginary.

http://images.cryhavok.org...
izbo10
Posts: 2,995
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6/14/2011 9:42:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/14/2011 12:01:46 AM, Extremely-Far-Right wrote:
Personally, I just think its a stalemate whenever it comes to religion and/or religious arguments (debates). (I know that posting this will possibly get heat from atheists and people who believe in God, but whenever it comes to topics such as the beggining of the Earth, I believe both sides have no logical argument.) I will explain why.

To all People who believe in God:

How can you prove that God created Earth? Where is the evidence to say it wasn't another entity? Where is the definitive evidence for this? Let's then support your thesis that God did indeed create Earth. Since we all know that matter can't be created or destroyed, where did God come from? What created God?

To all Atheists:

How can you support the notion and say that something just existed, and was just there? Something can't just exist, it had to come from somewhere. So, if you go back and look at all of the scientific theories to the beggining of the Earth, you will notice that they all come up short. The reason is, is because

a) Even Stephen Hawking noticed that he could only go back so far and use mathematical equations using "imaginary numbers" to support the beggining of Earth. Isn't it likely that something more "complex" than science and/or a deity created all that we know (but it doesn't have to be limited to God). After all, if he only used "imaginary numbers" in his equations, his conclusion has to be imaginary.

b) We as humans, still don't know everything about the beggining of the Earth, and/or evidence of how the universe first started. We are getting closer, with more scientific discoveries, but we will truly never know, because evidence for these kinds of topics gets lost in time.

Conclusion:

I personally think it's a stalemate whenever it comes to topics such as this. Neither side has enough evidence to prove the other that they are wrong. Can Atheists prove that God and/or another deity doesn't exist? No. (They can certainly make it more obvious to show that he/she doesn't exist, but can't prove to a certain doubt that he/she doesn't) and people that believe in God, can't prove that God exists, simply through epiphanies and reiligous scripts.

The same thing goes for the beginning of the world. Creationists, can't prove that God created Earth (other than the Bible and/or other religious texts), and Atheists can't prove that he (or any other deity) didn't create Earth.

I'm open to discussion. And would like to know if any other Agnostics on this website take the same stance on these issues as I do.

to be agnostic is to be ignorant of the terms and the fallacy of special pleading. Let me explain:

Theist means: One who believes in god

A is the greek for "not."

therefore atheist literally means not one who believes in god.

This completes a true dichotomy in the same way as rock and not a rock are a true dichotomy. Everything fits.

Where as gnostic means to have knowledge. so agnostic is without knowledge and this usually refers to the god question. So to be intellectually honest it is good to be agnostic atheist.

You question about the universe coming from nothing shows that you add extra validity to the god of the gaps answer of where the universe came from. You would not give the same credit to invisible universe creating fairies. This is special pleading for god.
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