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Intelligent Design = Repackaged Creationism ?

interrogator
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6/15/2011 9:06:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Meatros. It is man made. Religion is also man made. But Man himself cannot
define the thoughts or mindset of God. This is why we rely on God when
He speaks to us. That is mainly how the Bible came to be. And yes, even
the evil bandits themselves will try to change or manipulate that too.
That is their job to deceive man. Does that surprise you.
interrogator
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6/15/2011 9:09:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Intelligent Design deliberately avoids the idea that there is by nature
and intelligent designer or creator that is behind the creation itself. It fails in every single way.
Brainmaster
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6/15/2011 9:09:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 9:06:29 AM, interrogator wrote:
Meatros. It is man made. Religion is also man made. But Man himself cannot
define the thoughts or mindset of God. This is why we rely on God when
He speaks to us. That is mainly how the Bible came to be. And yes, even
the evil bandits themselves will try to change or manipulate that too.
That is their job to deceive man. Does that surprise you.

Interrogator may be our funniest troll
Kfc.
interrogator
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6/15/2011 9:09:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Intelligent Design deliberately avoids the idea that there is by nature
and intelligent designer or creator that is behind the creation itself. It fails miserably in every way.
interrogator
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6/15/2011 9:10:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Brainmaster. If that is the case, then I must be doing something right.
Because they just love the Interroooogaaaatoooooooooooooor !!!!
Brainmaster
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6/15/2011 9:11:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 9:10:43 AM, interrogator wrote:
Brainmaster. If that is the case, then I must be doing something right.
Because they just love the Interroooogaaaatoooooooooooooor !!!!

Your bad grammar eventually grows on me
Kfc.
interrogator
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6/15/2011 9:17:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Brainmaster. You like everyone else here must understand that the communication between God and man is sacred. This is where prophets and evangelists and
seers come in. They have a special gift which is divine. * Key word "divine".
They hear the words, and they they repeat them. It is written down and then
translated. Just like the Ten Commandaments, which make perfect sense
by the way. God clearly tells us that it is morally and spiritually damaging to
sleep with anothers spouse. I use adultery as an example. And studies have
proven that people who do this suffer some sort of spiritual or physical loss
after the act of adultery itself has taken place. The guilt and the shame is
prevelent, but sometimes those who do these acts are shamless simply because
they have no moral compass to fall back on. Those are what you call selfish
people. They are full of greed and envy. Which the Bible condemns also.
Interesting right. Yes.
Meatros
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6/15/2011 9:17:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 9:06:29 AM, interrogator wrote:
Meatros. It is man made. Religion is also man made. But Man himself cannot
define the thoughts or mindset of God. This is why we rely on God when
He speaks to us. That is mainly how the Bible came to be. And yes, even
the evil bandits themselves will try to change or manipulate that too.
That is their job to deceive man. Does that surprise you.

Sifting through this for meaning, I take it that you think that ID is somehow defining the thoughts/mindset of God?

If so, how is that?
interrogator
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6/15/2011 9:21:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Meatros. ID does not. Only the Word Of God itself. How we interpret things
differ, yes I agree. But there is enough common ground to create a format
that is suitable or abstract enough for everyone. We all know that it is wrong
to sleep with another persons spouse. Even though in some cultures, it
is accepted. Some Men in some countried have more than one wife.
And adultery is some parts of the world is the norm. But overall, humanity does
not approve of this. And it has been proven to be the case. That is why you
have laws that protect the sanctity of marriage. It is not the same everywhere.
But for the most part, the idea is the same. It is wrong.
Marauder
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6/15/2011 9:33:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 9:09:06 AM, interrogator wrote:
Intelligent Design deliberately avoids the idea that there is by nature
and intelligent designer or creator that is behind the creation itself. It fails in every single way.

interrogator, are you brain dead? Intelligent design is so open to the idea of an "intelligent designer or creator" that secular atheist are afraid allowing it anywhere near a school will bring 'God' into the schools.

its also open to aliens (or ancient astronauts)being our creators, or a time paradox where a time traveler goes back in time and creates all life on earth. But most that support it are believers in God.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Meatros
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6/15/2011 9:37:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 9:33:56 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 6/15/2011 9:09:06 AM, interrogator wrote:
Intelligent Design deliberately avoids the idea that there is by nature
and intelligent designer or creator that is behind the creation itself. It fails in every single way.

interrogator, are you brain dead? Intelligent design is so open to the idea of an "intelligent designer or creator" that secular atheist are afraid allowing it anywhere near a school will bring 'God' into the schools.


While I disagree with your comment about what secular atheists are afraid of (I'd wager it's the destruction of the scientific method), but I'm oddly on your side with regard to what interrogator is saying.

If you *add* assumptions to ID, such as why the designer designed X the way he/she/it did, then maybe you are putting words in his/her/its mouth.

its also open to aliens (or ancient astronauts)being our creators, or a time paradox where a time traveler goes back in time and creates all life on earth. But most that support it are believers in God.

Basically.
interrogator
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6/15/2011 9:54:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Marauder. Not all of them. They have left it open to the idea that the universe
created itself. God created the universe. Many of these so called secularists
are very hesitant to give Him the credit for doing so. They would rather put
the idea out there, that things can come from something. But it does not
have to be an entity, spirit, or supernatural being. Only a few actually
believe, or admit openly, that God exists.
Marauder
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6/15/2011 9:55:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
In response to the thread title is Intelligent Design "Repackaged Creationism"? no.

assuming by creationism your talking about god created the earth in 6 literal days and evolution is false.

Intelligent design does not even teach that evolution on the whole is necessarily false, only the factor about evolutionary pathways being completely random and without design. unguided by intelligent forces.

and like I said it does not even infer anything defining about the "designer". Creationism, whatever you mean by that term, does teach something about the attributes of our creator. things like the designer is a God, and that god knows all, is all good, all loving, is love itself, is the word, is all powerful, all competent, all present.

Intelligent design assumes none of this is makes no attempt at a stance at anything even related to this. only that there is a intelligent designer involved.

this designer does not have to be a god to comply with intelligent design. It could be a god...
..but it could also be an alien, or time traveling human. even an artificial intelligence of some kind would fit the kind of designer Intelligent Design teaches there was involved.

even Richard Dawkins admitted at the end of Ben Stiens "Expelled No Intelligence Allowed" documentary to the possibility of a non-god intelligent designer like an Alien that evolved from less guided forces on its planet.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
interrogator
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6/15/2011 10:10:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Marauder. It was not an alien or any other celestial being. They are very
real, dont get me wrong. But do you actually know what an alien is ?
It is not what you assume or believe it to be. That is the secular term for
those types of creatures. They are actually fallen angels. Not green people
with pointy ears. And this is why they are seen quite often, as are the
guardians of the universe. Or what we call "Angels Of Light". The ones
of darkness are time travelers and alien beings. And yes, they can also materialize and form into human beings. It makes perfect sense
to me. What about you.
Marauder
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6/15/2011 10:11:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 9:37:13 AM, Meatros wrote:
At 6/15/2011 9:33:56 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 6/15/2011 9:09:06 AM, interrogator wrote:
Intelligent Design deliberately avoids the idea that there is by nature
and intelligent designer or creator that is behind the creation itself. It fails in every single way.

interrogator, are you brain dead? Intelligent design is so open to the idea of an "intelligent designer or creator" that secular atheist are afraid allowing it anywhere near a school will bring 'God' into the schools.


While I disagree with your comment about what secular atheists are afraid of (I'd wager it's the destruction of the scientific method), but I'm oddly on your side with regard to what interrogator is saying.

okay, I interpreted the reaction of atheist like Bruce Alberts in the newspapers when this whole controversy mostly began (with Michal Behe 'Darwin's black box' book) when they said "this is just a Trojan horse for creationism!' and comments like 'next thing you know they will be fighting for prayer in schools!'

sounds like fear that this 'Trojan horse' teaching will bring God into schools if its allowed to be discussed.

If you *add* assumptions to ID, such as why the designer designed X the way he/she/it did, then maybe you are putting words in his/her/its mouth.

the added assumptions would not come from the ID teaching, but I don't fear putting the words into his/her/it's mouth if I know the assumptions are coming from the book he/she/it wrote.

once a thread was started on this site to converse about the interesting idea of trying to infer something from the creation itself about the creator (besides that it is intelligent) there were lots of ideas, like "circles are important" or "death and rebirth".

probably the most uncontroversial thing that there would be little to no risk of "putting words in the mouth" of the designer to infer from this creation is that the designer is artistic.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
interrogator
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6/15/2011 10:20:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Marauder. You also have to understand the these aliens are philosophers.
They have created the concept of intelligent design. But this is only to
distort the minds of humanity. Christians believe otherwise. We understand the logic behind it all. But it is too secular which in turn is anti Christ dogma.
It has a religious tone if you will. But it still tries to thwart out the actual
truth in the Word Of God. Any form of confusion is of the devil himself.
Because he knows if he can destroy your mind, then you are already dead.
You soul only to follow.
Meatros
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6/15/2011 10:22:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Marauder wrote: "okay, I interpreted the reaction of atheist like Bruce Alberts in the newspapers when this whole controversy mostly began (with Michal Behe 'Darwin's black box' book) when they said "this is just a Trojan horse for creationism!' and comments like 'next thing you know they will be fighting for prayer in schools!'

sounds like fear that this 'Trojan horse' teaching will bring God into schools if its allowed to be discussed."


ID is kind of a trojan horse. Some of the proponents are attempting to use it as a 'wedge'. Also, it's being forced into schools - which is completely backwards from how science generally gets introduced into text books. First a potential theory has to survive the gauntlet of peer review and other scientists and then it gets into text books.

This is not what is happening.

Marauder wrote: "the added assumptions would not come from the ID teaching, but I don't fear putting the words into his/her/it's mouth if I know the assumptions are coming from the book he/she/it wrote."

Correct - I was attempting to figure out how it could be said that ID was doing so. That's the only thing I could come up with.

Marauder wrote: "once a thread was started on this site to converse about the interesting idea of trying to infer something from the creation itself about the creator (besides that it is intelligent) there were lots of ideas, like "circles are important" or "death and rebirth".

probably the most uncontroversial thing that there would be little to no risk of "putting words in the mouth" of the designer to infer from this creation is that the designer is artistic."


A fondness for beetles as well, I suppose.
interrogator
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6/15/2011 10:22:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
So to me Intelligent Design is a very sensationalised, commercialised,
homogenized, version of non dogmatic religion. But they are still making
it seem as so. I dont buy it for one second. You are trying to tell me
that it was a group of Alien Beings that created the universe when clearly these
Beings are fallen angels who can take on the form of light and flesh.
This is where to confusion takes places. They are not concerned about
salvation or eternal life. These are distractions.
Marauder
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6/15/2011 10:31:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 10:10:33 AM, interrogator wrote:
Marauder. It was not an alien or any other celestial being.
I was not defending that aliens did do it, only that Richard Dawkins a die hard atheist admitted to intelligent design as possible.
I say it was not an alien it was the christian God

It's important to defend though it's inclusiveness of the ancient astronaut type theory to show just how un-polarizing and unassuming I.D. teaching is. To many treat it like talking about it would be forcing a view of God on others

I.D. is open to both secular views and religious ones. but it does not teach either one any more than the other to make I.D. a secular teaching or a religious teaching.

They are very real, dont get me wrong. But do you actually know what an alien is ?
It is not what you assume or believe it to be. That is the secular term for
those types of creatures. They are actually fallen angels. Not green people
with pointy ears.
actually most alien sightings describe 'grey people' so the secular view would be 'grey people'. the Hollywood view might be 'green' but serious view would be 'grey'.

not saying I defend aliens are real though.
And this is why they are seen quite often, as are the
guardians of the universe. Or what we call "Angels Of Light". The ones
of darkness are time travelers and alien beings. And yes, they can also materialize and form into human beings. It makes perfect sense
to me. What about you.

aliens being angles is an interesting idea I'd like to know more about. I've heard of the view that ghost are fallen angles trying to convince us there is somewhere other than heaven or hell that we go to after death, but this is the first I have heard of attributing alien sighting to being angle sightings.

but none of what you posted about them is very clear. were did you get 'time traveler' from and why are only the fallen angles time travelers?

and what is it about any alien sighting that fits the description of the angelic?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Meatros
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6/15/2011 10:32:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 10:22:59 AM, interrogator wrote:
So to me Intelligent Design is a very sensationalised, commercialised,
homogenized, version of non dogmatic religion. But they are still making
it seem as so. I dont buy it for one second. You are trying to tell me
that it was a group of Alien Beings that created the universe when clearly these
Beings are fallen angels who can take on the form of light and flesh.
This is where to confusion takes places. They are not concerned about
salvation or eternal life. These are distractions.


I must say that I'm impressed that you got this from Marauder.

You seemed to have teased out a hidden meaning/position that was not apparent in the plain reading of his post. Good job.
Marauder
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6/15/2011 10:38:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 10:20:01 AM, interrogator wrote:
Marauder. You also have to understand the these aliens are philosophers.
They have created the concept of intelligent design. But this is only to
distort the minds of humanity. Christians believe otherwise. We understand the logic behind it all. But it is too secular which in turn is anti Christ dogma.
uh, no. that would only be the case if this made up 'alien philosophy' was not compatible with Christ, but it is. its completely compatible with god as the creator, and even matches up perfectly with the gospels emphasis on everything being created through the 'word'.
It has a religious tone if you will. But it still tries to thwart out the actual
truth in the Word Of God. Any form of confusion is of the devil himself.
Because he knows if he can destroy your mind, then you are already dead.
You soul only to follow.

how can it 'thwart out the actual truth of the word of god' if it does not in any shape, smell, or form call a biblical teaching false in its own right?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
interrogator
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6/15/2011 10:44:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Marauder. Aliens are grey in most appearances, yes. I was only being
sarcastic there. LOL
But anyway. I understand the concept of Intelligent Design. But their primary goal is to endoctrinate humans who are already skeptikal or confused about the
very existence of God to begin with. If we were more sure about ourselves
personally, then we would have no need to be doubtful of anything.
As I was saying, this is secular ideology. God created the universe. He is the
beginning and the end. He created His angels first before man. The angels
were out there to be as spiritual elders to help mankind from being destroyed
completely by the devils empire. So for every person on this planet, there is
a guardian angel. The seers like to refer to them as "spirits". They can be
seen by christians and non christians, too. The Angels Of Darkness can also
be seen by the naked eye. They are more evident simply because they have a tendency to interact on a personal level with people. Their presence is often more felt by humans. This is why you have so many people who are in cults and other
clans of darkness. Aliens are just that. They have the ability to travel in time.

* And because of Teslas theory, if we interact with the spirit world on an unconscious level deep enough. Then yes, you are a human can do so too.
This is incredible isnt it. Yes, I know.
here on Earth today. *
Marauder
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6/15/2011 10:59:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/15/2011 10:22:26 AM, Meatros wrote:
Marauder wrote: "okay, I interpreted the reaction of atheist like Bruce Alberts in the newspapers when this whole controversy mostly began (with Michal Behe 'Darwin's black box' book) when they said "this is just a Trojan horse for creationism!' and comments like 'next thing you know they will be fighting for prayer in schools!'

sounds like fear that this 'Trojan horse' teaching will bring God into schools if its allowed to be discussed."


ID is kind of a trojan horse. Some of the proponents are attempting to use it as a 'wedge'.
I remember reading that term in a Phillip Johnson book once, the 'wedge'. but its been so long I don't remember the details to the strategy.
Also, it's being forced into schools
lol at inappropriate use of the term 'force'
- which is completely backwards from how science generally gets introduced into text books. First a potential theory has to survive the gauntlet of peer review and other scientists and then it gets into text books.

This is not what is happening.
actually there are lots of people perfectly worthy of being labeled 'peers' in the field that approve the teaching, but they are discredited as so on the pure grounds of there support for I.D. several examples can be seen on Ben Steins 'Expelled' movie.

in any case provoking discussion, or even just mentioning existing debates about a topic is always a good way at gaining interest on the subject your trying to teach.

it takes a certain level of arrogance to pointedly discourage such discussion from taking place. or even allowing it to be mentioned, if not discussed.
Marauder wrote: "the added assumptions would not come from the ID teaching, but I don't fear putting the words into his/her/it's mouth if I know the assumptions are coming from the book he/she/it wrote."

Correct - I was attempting to figure out how it could be said that ID was doing so. That's the only thing I could come up with.

the answer is I.D. does not do so. any views about the designer come from and are a part of (separate from I.D.) another view of some kind, weather that view is about the ancient astronauts extrapolated out of ancient cultures cave paintings and legends, or if the view is of god and from the bible.

Marauder wrote: "once a thread was started on this site to converse about the interesting idea of trying to infer something from the creation itself about the creator (besides that it is intelligent) there were lots of ideas, like "circles are important" or "death and rebirth".

probably the most uncontroversial thing that there would be little to no risk of "putting words in the mouth" of the designer to infer from this creation is that the designer is artistic."



A fondness for beetles as well, I suppose.

ha ha :) cause they very resistant to death right?
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
unitedandy
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6/15/2011 11:02:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
ID with regards to biology does equal backdoor creationism

As Meatros has pointed out, this is patently clear with the wedge document and so forth. Also, didn't Behe admit that allowing ID into a science classroom would necessarily allow all kinds of nonsense - astrology and the like? But let's take it seriously for a minute that ID is a scientific idea and not an overtly religious one. Firstly, the vagueness of the designer actually greatly hinders ID. As Ken Miller and others point out, if you are going to try and explain something, your framework has to be substantial enough to be taken seriously, and not just a recourse to "Anything but evolution". Secondly, why not malignant design? As Chomsky points out there is far more evidence for a stupid, wicked, short-sighted, careless designer who designed incrementally and erratically than for an intelligent designer. One could take any number of examples from the anatomy of humans, giraffes and whales to substantiate this point far more than an intelligent designer. Thirdly, it's clearly just a focus on gaps people like Behe are peddling. Instead of the complexity of the eye, he uses the bacterial flagellum. Now even if he could show that this for example was irreducibly complex, all this does is offer something to be explained, not positive evidence for an intelligent designer, particularly with the designer being so inept.

The question I would ask is not whether ID has scientific basis (it doesn't), but whether it can square the idea of God an endless tinkerer with the imagery of the Christian deity.