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Jesus had to die for our sins

vbaculum
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6/23/2011 10:56:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
But would we still be saved if he had died from a fever? What about old age? Was the 2-3 days of torture necessary to satisfy Yahweh.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

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Meatros
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6/23/2011 11:03:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 10:56:16 AM, vbaculum wrote:
But would we still be saved if he had died from a fever? What about old age? Was the 2-3 days of torture necessary to satisfy Yahweh.

Why did he have to die? Seems to me that God could have said, 'you know what, I forgive you all unconditionally.'.

Also, where do you get the 2-3 days? It's my understanding that he died fairly quickly once on the cross. He didn't even have his legs broken.
interrogator
Posts: 1,322
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6/23/2011 11:14:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Meatros. He died because He knew that mankind had been tainted by evil.
The creation of evil come from the consciousness of Satan. Because God does
not intervene with Free Will...............He gives us the power of thought and choice.
What choice you make is up to you. As one is never forced to do anything.
So it was the ultimate sacrifice.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/23/2011 12:21:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Jesus didn't die for your sins, he died because of your sins.

If you dipsh!ts didn't idolize him as God, like the filthy idolaters that you are, you wouldn't have blown Jesus' cover. Either way though, he undoubtedly would have died from the illicit activities he was involved with on a daily basis(Bread piracy, boot legging wine, performing medical operations without proper qualifications, collecting from floozies, sticking it to the man, etc.).

My guess on how Jesus would have died had his cover not been blown.. Shot 9 times with arrows and stabbed 40 times with daggers and swords during some type of gang war resulting from Jesus pimpin' hoes and slangin' bread in the wrong hood.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
interrogator
Posts: 1,322
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6/23/2011 12:26:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Cosmic. That is what I meant. Jesus is the Son Of God. And there are some
even now who think that Jesus never existed. But he did, and the Jews will tell
you this for sure. Anyway. Regardless of how you look at this situation,
the only thing that matters is you having eternal life. Anything else is irrelevent.
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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6/23/2011 1:01:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 11:03:40 AM, Meatros wrote:
At 6/23/2011 10:56:16 AM, vbaculum wrote:
But would we still be saved if he had died from a fever? What about old age? Was the 2-3 days of torture necessary to satisfy Yahweh.

Why did he have to die? Seems to me that God could have said, 'you know what, I forgive you all unconditionally.'.

Also, where do you get the 2-3 days? It's my understanding that he died fairly quickly once on the cross. He didn't even have his legs broken.

There is a lot of illogic to the Jesus story that I ignored to ask that question. The only reason I asked it is because it never occured to me until I was reading the Age of Reason last night. I had thought I was aware of every short coming in the sensibility of that story until I read that passage.

It's my belief that it is the very nonsensical nature of the story that makes it so enduring. Instead of reason becoming outraged, like it normally would when confronted with an absurd situation, it says to itself "I'll never figure this one out. Good night. Gullibilty and Credulity, you've got this one right?". "Duh, yeah weez got it. Sweet dreams."

Anyway, I got the 2-3 days part form memory. It seems like it would take at least that long to die on a cross.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
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6/23/2011 1:13:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 1:01:30 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 6/23/2011 11:03:40 AM, Meatros wrote:
At 6/23/2011 10:56:16 AM, vbaculum wrote:
But would we still be saved if he had died from a fever? What about old age? Was the 2-3 days of torture necessary to satisfy Yahweh.

Why did he have to die? Seems to me that God could have said, 'you know what, I forgive you all unconditionally.'.

Also, where do you get the 2-3 days? It's my understanding that he died fairly quickly once on the cross. He didn't even have his legs broken.

There is a lot of illogic to the Jesus story that I ignored to ask that question. The only reason I asked it is because it never occured to me until I was reading the Age of Reason last night. I had thought I was aware of every short coming in the sensibility of that story until I read that passage.


I thought it sounded vaguely familiar - I remember reading a criticism about old age. It's been forever since I read the Age of Reasons.

It's my belief that it is the very nonsensical nature of the story that makes it so enduring. Instead of reason becoming outraged, like it normally would when confronted with an absurd situation, it says to itself "I'll never figure this one out. Good night. Gullibilty and Credulity, you've got this one right?". "Duh, yeah weez got it. Sweet dreams."

Anyway, I got the 2-3 days part form memory. It seems like it would take at least that long to die on a cross.

Usually it takes awhile, but the Bible states that, basically, everyone was surprised at how quickly Jesus gave up the ghost. There's more to it and I've read some speculation that suggests that much of the story is basically henpicked from the Old Testament. One example is the casting of lots for his clothes.
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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6/23/2011 1:29:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 11:14:13 AM, interrogator wrote:
Meatros. He died because He knew that mankind had been tainted by evil.
The creation of evil come from the consciousness of Satan. Because God does
not intervene with Free Will...............He gives us the power of thought and choice.
What choice you make is up to you. As one is never forced to do anything.
So it was the ultimate sacrifice.

To reach heaven, are we not forced to believe in Jesus?
Are we not forced by pain of hell to follow the big 10?

As to free will and God not forcing, did God not force Satan out of heaven. He was the first to rebel.
In Eden, when A & E sinned, did God not force them out of Eden and forcibly prevent them from eating of the tree of life?

Is God's -----do things my way or burn forever ----- not forcing compliance with the threat of damnation?

Are placing conditions for thinking and actions not forcing us to think and act as told?

Regards
DL
interrogator
Posts: 1,322
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6/23/2011 1:47:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
GreatestIam. No God is not forcing you to do anything. At the end of the day, you
still have a choice. And it is quite simple. But because we are humans, and are
filled with sin, it makes it qute hard. Most people would rather not give up
the guilty pleasures of life to follow God. They think that this world is all there
is to life. Heaven and Hell seem like such a stretch for some, but deep in our hearts
we know that they are both an undeniable reality. But we have pride. We want
to please man. We want to cater to our flesh. It is not easy to live for The Lord, but
eternal life is our reward for doing so.
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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6/23/2011 3:44:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 1:47:55 PM, interrogator wrote:
GreatestIam. No God is not forcing you to do anything. At the end of the day, you
still have a choice. And it is quite simple. But because we are humans, and are
filled with sin, it makes it qute hard. Most people would rather not give up
the guilty pleasures of life to follow God.
All you have to do to "follow God" is say you're a Christian and try to convience yourself through prayer and church attendance that the Bible isn't man-made. None of this is hard to do if you have no self-respect or repect for the objective world.

Of course, you would say that one must also try not to "sin" to be a Christian but it's human nature to NOT want to "sin".

For example, I don't want to cheat on my wife because it would hurt her, as it would me, if she were to cheat on me.

So the religious and and irreligious are both tempted my their passions and both are incentivised by securlar reasons to deal appropriately with them.

So, 'giving up the guilty pleasures of the world' is something that is done by all mature adults; not just the religious. The two differences between a religious and non-religious person in this regard is: 1. that a religious person make a fool of him or herself by forcing beliefs upon themselves which their reason rebels against and 2: The religious person attributes the cause of all their maturity (the ability to deny themeselve certain pleasures that, in the long run do not benefit them) to their religious adherence. The credit for rational self denial lies with the self and the secular can take credit for their good actions.

They think that this world is all there
is to life. Heaven and Hell seem like such a stretch for some, but deep in our hearts
we know that they are both an undeniable reality. But we have pride. We want
to please man. We want to cater to our flesh. It is not easy to live for The Lord, but
eternal life is our reward for doing so.

Every one in the Western world is aquinted with the mythological land of the Christian hell and what it takes to get there. The fact that so few people, religious and non-religious, behave as if such a place exists prooves that the knowledge of it's existence is not "deep in [their] hearts". In other words, if people really credited that being eternally burned alive after death was a real possibility for not being religious enough, they, including you, would behave very differently.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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6/23/2011 5:03:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 1:47:55 PM, interrogator wrote:
GreatestIam. No God is not forcing you to do anything. At the end of the day, you
still have a choice. And it is quite simple. But because we are humans, and are
filled with sin, it makes it qute hard.

Give me one example of a situation where you have two or more possible options, but are forced to choose one?

Most people would rather not give up
the guilty pleasures of life to follow God. They think that this world is all there
is to life.

Yeah, i love the pleasures of killing, raping, stealing, etc... Oh wait, i dont do any of those. So what pleasures exactly are christians avoiding, which atheists are commiting?
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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6/24/2011 9:24:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 1:47:55 PM, interrogator wrote:
GreatestIam. No God is not forcing you to do anything. At the end of the day, you
still have a choice.

Really?
Did those at Sodom or those innocent children and babies have a choice at the end of the day that God murdered them?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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6/24/2011 9:27:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 5:03:18 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 6/23/2011 1:47:55 PM, interrogator wrote:
GreatestIam. No God is not forcing you to do anything. At the end of the day, you
still have a choice. And it is quite simple. But because we are humans, and are
filled with sin, it makes it qute hard.

Give me one example of a situation where you have two or more possible options, but are forced to choose one?

Most people would rather not give up
the guilty pleasures of life to follow God. They think that this world is all there
is to life.

Yeah, i love the pleasures of killing, raping, stealing, etc... Oh wait, i dont do any of those. So what pleasures exactly are christians avoiding, which atheists are commiting?

Have you ever checked the stats?
Interesting to see who has better ones in atheist v/s Christians.

Regards
DL
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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6/24/2011 3:32:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/24/2011 9:27:34 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 6/23/2011 5:03:18 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 6/23/2011 1:47:55 PM, interrogator wrote:
GreatestIam. No God is not forcing you to do anything. At the end of the day, you
still have a choice. And it is quite simple. But because we are humans, and are
filled with sin, it makes it qute hard.

Give me one example of a situation where you have two or more possible options, but are forced to choose one?

Most people would rather not give up
the guilty pleasures of life to follow God. They think that this world is all there
is to life.

Yeah, i love the pleasures of killing, raping, stealing, etc... Oh wait, i dont do any of those. So what pleasures exactly are christians avoiding, which atheists are commiting?

Have you ever checked the stats?
Interesting to see who has better ones in atheist v/s Christians.



Regards
DL

More christians in prison, atheist majority countries like sweden have the highest standard of living, etc etc etc....
Justin_Chains
Posts: 623
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6/24/2011 4:14:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It would seem to me that the biblical God could have created a far better system structure when He created life than what Christianity explains.

Seems that the biblical God didn't really know what he was doing. Almost any intelligent man of today's age can think of a better structure than what Christianity explains to be true.

Jesus didn't need to die for our sins so that we can go to heaven. That doesn't even make sense nor is it logically sound with omnipotent intelligence.
ApostateAbe
Posts: 236
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6/24/2011 5:21:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 11:14:13 AM, interrogator wrote:
Meatros. He died because He knew that mankind had been tainted by evil.
The creation of evil come from the consciousness of Satan. Because God does
not intervene with Free Will...............He gives us the power of thought and choice.
What choice you make is up to you. As one is never forced to do anything.
So it was the ultimate sacrifice.

Here is an illustration of the ultimate sacrifice:

http://www.normalbobsmith.com...
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/13/2011 5:31:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/23/2011 10:56:16 AM, vbaculum wrote:
But would we still be saved if he had died from a fever? What about old age? Was the 2-3 days of torture necessary to satisfy Yahweh.

Jesus is the 'Image of the Father' so when He heals a man or raises someone from the dead or feeds the 5000 He is only mirroring what the Father does continually; giving life and health, causing the crops and fish to multiply etc.

Now, Jesus had to die on the cross as it is the ultimate mirror image of Who the Father really is, the TRUE WITNESS if you will:

When God the Father created humanity with free-will to rebel against Him, He put Himself AT OUR MERCY.. He SUFFERS with our sin.. He RECIEVES our lack of love and unforgiveness.. (as Jesus received the vinegar) even our worship is a MOCKERY of who He is.. (a crown of thorns)

God CHOSE this torment rather than creating robots who always do His will..
THIS is the TRUE WITNESS of God the Father; He loves us and suffers with our sin continually.

Jesus could have come down from the cross at ANY time, just as the Father can release Himself from the torment of His creation at any time..

And when He does.. those who are not 'in relation to Him' (sinners) will be cut off FOREVER.

THIS is why we can ONLY come to the Father THROUGH Jesus.
The Cross.. the Cross.