Total Posts:15|Showing Posts:1-15
Jump to topic:

Yo mythers, Paul believed in historical Jesus

ApostateAbe
Posts: 231
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2011 10:44:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
There is a debate awaiting a contender, and the debate is:

"Paul Believed in a (recent) Historical Jesus" (http://www.debate.org...)

In other words, Paul believed that Jesus existed as a human being.

It may seem like a damned obvious position for almost all of us, but there are actually some out there who believe that Paul's Jesus was only a spiritual or a metaphorical being of pure explicit myth.

Who believes such a thing? Answer: Jesus mythers, or those who believe that Jesus never existed. If you are a Jesus myther, then it is likely that your own favorite author believes that Paul did not believe in a historical Jesus--Earl Doherty, GA Wells, Acharya S, Robert M. Price, Freke and Gandy.

That position has also been claimed in some of these debates.

So says Jesus-myther feverish (http://www.debate.org...):

None of these writings [of Paul] refer to a flesh and blood Christ that recently lived on Earth and many of the statements made only make sense if 'Jesus Christ' is a metaphorical heavenly symbol of redemption.

And so says Jesus-myther JustCallMeTarzan (http://www.debate.org...):

As stated before, the authors of the gospels have simply used extant Old Testament writing to transform an ordinary man into their Messiah... Lacking details of Jesus' life, since none of the gospel authors were actually there (remember there wasn't an Apostle named Mark...) and other early writers like Paul make no mention of the details of Jesus' life, the writers turned to the only place they could get details:

Crazed, dehydrated primitives wandering in a desert who talked to burning shrubbery and thought the wheelbarrow and chariot were fantastic pieces of cutting-edge technology.

What a wonderful source.


LOL!

Such a position is of course appealing to one's prejudices against Christianity, but the position is indefensible in a focused debate. So, step up and defend it if you wish to assert it as fact, again, at this debate awaiting a challenger: http://www.debate.org...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2011 12:43:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
No (good) debater is likely to take you up on this, IMO. I can't even bring myself to do devil's advocate for the position...

Do you know if Richard Carrier believes this? He's a myther, right?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2011 12:44:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/25/2011 12:43:10 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
No (good) debater is likely to take you up on this, IMO. I can't even bring myself to do devil's advocate for the position...

Do you know if Richard Carrier believes this? He's a myther, right?

Oh wait, he's a myther? Does he just not like Murdock's stuff in particular?
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2011 12:48:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I feel stupid, the only exposure I have to him is what I've read in regards to her.. so I assume he wasn't a myth guy for some odd reason. Nevermind.
ApostateAbe
Posts: 231
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2011 1:14:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/25/2011 12:43:10 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
No (good) debater is likely to take you up on this, IMO. I can't even bring myself to do devil's advocate for the position...

Do you know if Richard Carrier believes this? He's a myther, right?

Yes, Richard Carrier is a myther, too, and he also believes that "Paul's epistles show no knowledge of a historical Jesus beyond a few generic and stylized declarations of dogma." That qualification is weaselly, but he really is in the same camp.
ApostateAbe
Posts: 231
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2011 1:28:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/25/2011 12:48:08 PM, Denote wrote:
I feel stupid, the only exposure I have to him is what I've read in regards to her.. so I assume he wasn't a myth guy for some odd reason. Nevermind.

Yeah, Richard Carrier did speak against DM Murdock (Acharya S), to his credit. He is still a myther, but some mythers are better than others.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2011 6:50:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/25/2011 1:14:10 PM, ApostateAbe wrote:
Yes, Richard Carrier is a myther, too, and he also believes that "Paul's epistles show no knowledge of a historical Jesus beyond a few generic and stylized declarations of dogma." That qualification is weaselly, but he really is in the same camp.

That quotation is pulled form his review (conclusion) of Lüdemann's conference paper on the issue.
ApostateAbe
Posts: 231
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2011 7:09:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/25/2011 6:50:45 PM, Puck wrote:
At 6/25/2011 1:14:10 PM, ApostateAbe wrote:
Yes, Richard Carrier is a myther, too, and he also believes that "Paul's epistles show no knowledge of a historical Jesus beyond a few generic and stylized declarations of dogma." That qualification is weaselly, but he really is in the same camp.

That quotation is pulled form his review (conclusion) of Lüdemann's conference paper on the issue.

Yes, that's right. Richard Carrier thought the paper was "brilliant," and I know that he agreed with the perceived conclusions. There was a YouTube video I saw some time ago where Richard Carrier basically states the same conclusion using similar weaselly phrasing, here, at 2:30.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2011 7:47:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Who believes such a thing? Answer: Jesus mythers, or those who believe that Jesus never existed.:

What are you called when you just don't care whether or not he existed (besides "indifferent" or "apathetic")?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
J.Maximus
Posts: 1
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2011 7:56:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/25/2011 7:47:48 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Who believes such a thing? Answer: Jesus mythers, or those who believe that Jesus never existed.:

What are you called when you just don't care whether or not he existed (besides "indifferent" or "apathetic")?

The debate that is posted now, though, is not meant for debating whether Jesus existed or not. It is about debating whether or not Paul believed Jesus to have been an historical figure. Even if Jesus didn't exist, Paul could have still believed Jesus to have been an historical figure.

The debate is about Paul; not about Jesus.

JM
Love your enemies!
ApostateAbe
Posts: 231
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/25/2011 7:59:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/25/2011 7:47:48 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Who believes such a thing? Answer: Jesus mythers, or those who believe that Jesus never existed.:

What are you called when you just don't care whether or not he existed (besides "indifferent" or "apathetic")?

I would call such a person an "apathejesus."
ApostateAbe
Posts: 231
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2011 9:36:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I need to correct something I wrote wrongly about feverish. He is not a myther, but only an agnostic on the subject of whether or not Jesus existed.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2011 2:18:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Whether or not Jesus existed as a person or not, the story he is presented in is by definition a myth.

Myth- a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Contradiction
Posts: 409
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2011 2:28:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/25/2011 1:14:10 PM, ApostateAbe wrote:
At 6/25/2011 12:43:10 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
No (good) debater is likely to take you up on this, IMO. I can't even bring myself to do devil's advocate for the position...

Do you know if Richard Carrier believes this? He's a myther, right?

Yes, Richard Carrier is a myther, too, and he also believes that "Paul's epistles show no knowledge of a historical Jesus beyond a few generic and stylized declarations of dogma." That qualification is weaselly, but he really is in the same camp.

The little respect I had left for Carrier just vanished.
ApostateAbe
Posts: 231
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/26/2011 3:16:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/26/2011 2:18:12 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Whether or not Jesus existed as a person or not, the story he is presented in is by definition a myth.

Myth- a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.

I don't disagree in the least. The character of Jesus would be a "myth" regardless of whether or not the gospels were 100% true. The debate so often conflates "myth" with "mere myth," which causes a lot of confusion. I use the phrase, "merely mythical," instead of simply "mythical," whenever it applies.