Total Posts:17|Showing Posts:1-17
Jump to topic:

William Lane Craig vs Massimo Pigliucci (God)

Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/27/2011 8:41:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
R2 - Massimo Pigluicci

-origin + fine tuning are not evidence for the Christian God
-objective morals can come from game theory, etc.
-historical jesus, calls shenanigans (elvis is still sighted, etc.)
-how do you know you have experienced divine witness?

Over view :

-very weak response aside from the last point about divine witness
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/27/2011 8:57:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Rebuttal WLC

-notes Massimo did not prove atheism, just said doubt
-sledgehammer that massimo conceded kalam and fine tuning
-argued evolution could have evolved rape is accepted, it is not objective, etc.
-massive argument for the historical jesus (massimo is schooled here this is grape vs izbo)
-divine witness, claims this is a basic belief (he ran out of time here this is just one line)

Rebuttal Massimo

-opens with "who created god" (yes seriously this is his first rebuttal) to refute kalam
-his argument against fine tuning is that Martin Gardner notes it is crap (seriously)
-he argues here than objective moral values are relative and that WLC's argument is for universal not objective moral values and that evolution is objective but not universal
-he just notes WLC is false about historical jesus, that is it
-he notes you can not prove a negative (Kenyon weeps at this argument) so he does not have to falsify god
-he concedes divine witness, never mentions it

After his main argument he starts rambling on random points skipping here and there.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/27/2011 9:08:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Rebuttal WLC :

-hammers again that Massimo can not argue for atheism, he has only doubt
-argues that the quantum vacuum is not "nothing"
-god does not need a cause (timeless, etc.)
-hammers that the anthropic principle is NOT fine tuning
-hammers home again that locking up a criminal does not show objective morals
-argued again the the majority of scholars agree with the historical jesus
-demands a pagan parallel to jesus, massimo again failed to do this
-argues again that massimo's argue against divine witness is an argument against all knowledge

Rebuttal Massimo :

-again stands that you can not prove unicorns do not exist and atheists can not prove God does not exist, again Kenyon cries
-quantum mechanics is confusing, maybe everyone is wrong, Feynman cries
-occams razor => divine witness is alse
-argues again that evolution explains local/temporal rules (derp)

This is lopsided to WLC
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/27/2011 9:13:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Was there supposed to a video accompanying your first post? I remember reading some of Massimo's stuff a while back. I forget what it was about, though.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/27/2011 9:15:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Rebuttal WLC :

-can you falsify is there an elephant in this room (derp) should there be evidence, do you see it?
-hammers kalam, fine tuning, OBJECTIVE morals
-again no defeater for divine witness, Occam's Razor could be used to eliminate existence (brain in a vat)
-historical jesus is hitorical

Rebuttal Massimo
-argument 1-3 do not argue christian god
-historical jesus is just miracles, and there are lots of miracles. hume disproved miracles (no reasoning just noted it)
-divine witness is not a argument
-quantum mechanics is confusing just ignore me and WLC
-historical science is all jibber/jabber, calls shenanigans
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/27/2011 9:27:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Q1

-what up with all the different stories?

WLC :

-This is history man, you need to relax. Historians sort out what is real from what is not real. And no of them deny the resurrection.

Massimo :

-Hey now, if there is any problems there are all problems so you can ignore all of it then!

Q2

-women who believe in god have less abortions, does that mean god will be selected

WLC
-Yes

Massmio
-Yes but we sleep around and it balances out.

Q3

-Deep within us we know morality is true, how can you know that isn't simply evolutionary?

WLC
-Look man, we don't know what gravity is, yeah we might be confused but gravity still exists. Do you believe the earth is flat, well do you punk?

Massimo
-How do you know there are objective morals? Intuition is great yes, but gambles have poor intuition?

Q4

-Claim of the empty tomb?

Massimo
-Lots of people die for a lie, didn't you get my argument about Elvis? E-L-V-I-S!

WLC
-If God exists it isn't a problem, no serious scholar supports the lying argument. Flat Earther!

Q5

-Proper basic belief?

WLC
-In the absence of a defeater it is ration to accept them. Divine witness is a properly basic experience.

Massimo
-Everyone believes the earth is round, not everyone believes God is real.
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/27/2011 9:33:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'll have to check these out - I seem to recall Massimo saying that he thought that the first debate was a draw and that he trounced Craig on the second debate.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/27/2011 9:43:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Q6

-How do you positive truth if you do not know what truth is?

Massimo
-I have a decent idea I just don't know. He thinks he knows (Craig), I think he is wrong.
-I am agnostic, I am opened minded

WLC
-I am just saying I am more probable, not 100% certain

Q7

-Stimulating the brain can cause effects similar to divine witness

WLC
-Yes part of the brain is involved in divine witness, but that doesn't mean it is all in the brain.

Massimo
-Occam's razor = profit

Q8

-I am a quantum physicist, the wave function is not nothing

Massimo
-It is damn close to nothing, your are not a real physicist, the physicist I talked to said I am right

WLC
-Kalam = win, is not an argument from ignorance, didn't you listen to the physicist who said you were wrong?

Q9

-God is perfect? Is that falsifiable?

WLC
-God does not need an optimal design. God could choose evolution.

Massimo
-Universe is poorly designed, God is a newb engineer.

Q10

-Universal vs Objective Morality

Massimo
-Universal is everywhere, local is just local (time/space)

WLC
-Local morality is not actual morality and is not objective in any sense

Q11
-Personal vs Unpersonal cause, this is a massive ramble

WLC
-Argument for free agent to "begin" the universe and that is necessary for a timeless cause to act

Massimo
-There are lots of explanations for before the universe, we don't know it was one beginning
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/27/2011 9:54:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Q12

-Deathbed conversions? What is the purpose of life if you are an atheist?

Massimo
-I enjoy life, it is my purpose.

WLC
-No purpose for atheists. Cody has a sad and meaningless life as a nihilist.

Q13

-Infinity and Beyond? Can you separate yourself from your thoughts? If not then why debate (everything is biased - we are all Justin_Chains)

WLC
-All we can do is take the shot, every three pointer may not hit but that doesn't mean you don't the boards.

Massimo
-Look man, it is just this simple, winners want the ball. You want the ball, no, then you are not a winner. Here is a grapefruit.

Q14
-naturalism can accept miracles

Massimo
-Yeah, show me something I can not explain (argument from ignorance is good for me but fallacy fallacy for WLC)

WLC
-Need some doubt to create faith.

Q15
-divine witness not in Christians?

WLC
-Hindu's don't believe in a personal diety (what?). They are all good but they are not as good as Jesus

Massmio
-How do you know Thor is not real, look at this hammer *smites craig*.
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/28/2011 4:12:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/27/2011 9:54:00 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
-Look man, it is just this simple, winners want the ball. You want the ball, no, then you are not a winner. Here is a grapefruit.

So he recognizes I want the ball, but has he the balls to win the ball? He's pretty ballin' to suggest that a bi-winner like me is a grapefruit, especially when I am currently publishing my own magazine. Its all about my balls.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/28/2011 10:17:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 4:12:40 AM, Thaddeus wrote:

Its all about my balls.

I think that is properly basic.

This debate was pretty lopsided and even the questions, which Craig's opponents usually make some ground on, still moved Craig even further into dominance. This really is puzzling as Craig runs the exact same arguments, his first opening is almost verbatim from previous debates. There are far stronger responses to Craig's arguments here on DDO in any number of debates. I am beginning to think Craig has some kind of debating kryptonite.

I listened to this as izbo noted Massimo dominated Craig in this debate. After reviewing it I can not see how anyone could reach that conclusion and arguing things like "Yeah, well who made God then?" are such derp arguments. And so much of Massimo's arguments were all X says I am right that I wish Sieben was in the audience to start screaming "argument from authority! argument from authority!".
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/28/2011 10:21:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 10:17:22 AM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/28/2011 4:12:40 AM, Thaddeus wrote:

Its all about my balls.

I think that is properly basic.

Would you be interested in this months edition?

This debate was pretty lopsided and even the questions, which Craig's opponents usually make some ground on, still moved Craig even further into dominance. This really is puzzling as Craig runs the exact same arguments, his first opening is almost verbatim from previous debates. There are far stronger responses to Craig's arguments here on DDO in any number of debates. I am beginning to think Craig has some kind of debating kryptonite.

I listened to this as izbo noted Massimo dominated Craig in this debate. After reviewing it I can not see how anyone could reach that conclusion and arguing things like "Yeah, well who made God then?" are such derp arguments. And so much of Massimo's arguments were all X says I am right that I wish Sieben was in the audience to start screaming "argument from authority! argument from authority!".

So its not worth watching?
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/28/2011 11:16:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 10:21:10 AM, Thaddeus wrote:

So its not worth watching?

Listening, no. There were a few funny parts in the Q&A but it 2.5 hours long in total. It is the same argument from Craig and the same foundering defence. I listened to it at double speed while I was practising combining aspects of Japanese calligraphy with Spencerian script as I have a few new brush pens.