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A late night discussion

tornshoe92
Posts: 361
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6/28/2011 2:16:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have a Christian friend that I often discuss religion with. No matter how the discussion starts, it always ends with us talking about faith. I usually talk about how I can't force myself to believe in god because it's not a choice, I'm (like lots of others) simply not mentally built to believe in something for which I have no compelling evidence (hence the discussion of faith). He usually responds by asserting that it's just my brain telling me I can't and that if I truly want to believe, then god will help me to believe. The problem is that the discussion comes to a stand-still, with me not having a reason to believe in god, and him saying that it's "something you have to ovrcome". So could someone here explain how to get past this blockade in the conversation? If any Christians would also like to answer that'd be great. For example, how would I know that god is telling me to believe?
"Next time I see a little old lady going to church I am going kick her in the ovaries because she is personally responsible for this. Thanks Izbo." -C_N
tornshoe92
Posts: 361
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6/28/2011 11:15:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 3:01:05 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
Can't prove he exists, cant prove he doesnt exist.

Go agnostic.

Already there.
"Next time I see a little old lady going to church I am going kick her in the ovaries because she is personally responsible for this. Thanks Izbo." -C_N
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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6/28/2011 11:44:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 11:15:48 AM, tornshoe92 wrote:
At 6/28/2011 3:01:05 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
Can't prove he exists, cant prove he doesnt exist.

I have faith that there is no god.
Things that are so interesting:

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Brainmaster
Posts: 1,603
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6/28/2011 11:44:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 11:44:06 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 6/28/2011 11:15:48 AM, tornshoe92 wrote:
At 6/28/2011 3:01:05 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
Can't prove he exists, cant prove he doesnt exist.

I have faith that there is no god.

BURN HEATHEN BURN!
Kfc.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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6/28/2011 2:41:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 2:16:45 AM, tornshoe92 wrote:
I have a Christian friend that I often discuss religion with. No matter how the discussion starts, it always ends with us talking about faith. I usually talk about how I can't force myself to believe in god because it's not a choice, I'm (like lots of others) simply not mentally built to believe in something for which I have no compelling evidence (hence the discussion of faith). He usually responds by asserting that it's just my brain telling me I can't and that if I truly want to believe, then god will help me to believe. The problem is that the discussion comes to a stand-still, with me not having a reason to believe in god, and him saying that it's "something you have to ovrcome". So could someone here explain how to get past this blockade in the conversation? If any Christians would also like to answer that'd be great. For example, how would I know that god is telling me to believe?

Get him to admit that belief cannot possibly be subject to the will, would be my first step. Ask him to provide an example other than a belief in a God, where you could possibly TRULY believe it to be true just by choice.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/28/2011 3:18:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 2:41:45 PM, tkubok wrote:

Ask him to provide an example other than a belief in a God, where you could possibly TRULY believe it to be true just by choice.

Love.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/28/2011 3:22:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 2:16:45 AM, tornshoe92 wrote:

I have a Christian friend that I often discuss religion with. No matter how the discussion starts, it always ends with us talking about faith. I usually talk about how I can't force myself to believe in god because it's not a choice, I'm (like lots of others) simply not mentally built to believe in something for which I have no compelling evidence (hence the discussion of faith).

Your friend seems to be a bit of a mook. You are not supposed to believe without compelling evidence. If this was the case the why are there prophets, scripture, divine witness, etc. . Plus of course there are the host of ontological arguments.
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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6/28/2011 4:07:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 2:16:45 AM, tornshoe92 wrote:
I have a Christian friend that I often discuss religion with. No matter how the discussion starts, it always ends with us talking about faith. I usually talk about how I can't force myself to believe in god because it's not a choice, I'm (like lots of others) simply not mentally built to believe in something for which I have no compelling evidence (hence the discussion of faith). He usually responds by asserting that it's just my brain telling me I can't and that if I truly want to believe, then god will help me to believe. The problem is that the discussion comes to a stand-still, with me not having a reason to believe in god, and him saying that it's "something you have to ovrcome". So could someone here explain how to get past this blockade in the conversation? If any Christians would also like to answer that'd be great. For example, how would I know that god is telling me to believe?

Present the quote "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." to him. Ask him to explain why this is flawed logic.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/28/2011 4:18:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Your friend is an idiot.

Just sayin'.

A well intended idiot, but still an idiot.

Tell him to have faith that everything will be alright with you.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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6/28/2011 5:46:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 3:18:31 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/28/2011 2:41:45 PM, tkubok wrote:

Ask him to provide an example other than a belief in a God, where you could possibly TRULY believe it to be true just by choice.

Love.

Really? So if i present to you a truly spiteful, and the most ugliest girl alive, you could choose to love her and it would be sincere? I doubt it.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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6/28/2011 6:44:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 3:22:59 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/28/2011 2:16:45 AM, tornshoe92 wrote:

I have a Christian friend that I often discuss religion with. No matter how the discussion starts, it always ends with us talking about faith. I usually talk about how I can't force myself to believe in god because it's not a choice, I'm (like lots of others) simply not mentally built to believe in something for which I have no compelling evidence (hence the discussion of faith).

Your friend seems to be a bit of a mook. You are not supposed to believe without compelling evidence. If this was the case the why are there prophets, scripture, divine witness, etc. . Plus of course there are the host of ontological arguments.

I completely agree with Cliff.

I must state that most Christians are unable to effectively articulate why they believe what they believe.
They do not bother to search out ways to be more effective in their ability to communicate.

There is another possibility as well. He could be attempting to relay that your reluctance is due to not having available access to what you would consider "valid" evidence. This would be confirmed for him through personal experience not tracked in a way you would confirm.

I would suggest that you attempt to "personally experience" God based on the historical Christian Criteria.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/28/2011 7:28:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 5:46:39 PM, tkubok wrote:

Really? So if i present to you a truly spiteful, and the most ugliest girl alive, you could choose to love her and it would be sincere?

Yes. You are a man not a dog, there is no need to be so limited as to be reactive emotionally.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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6/28/2011 7:48:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 7:28:53 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/28/2011 5:46:39 PM, tkubok wrote:

Really? So if i present to you a truly spiteful, and the most ugliest girl alive, you could choose to love her and it would be sincere?

Yes. You are a man not a dog, there is no need to be so limited as to be reactive emotionally.

So if i were to present to you a male donkey, you would be able to choose to love t and have sex with it, and it would be sincere?
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/28/2011 8:03:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 7:48:04 PM, tkubok wrote:

So if i were to present to you a male donkey, you would be able to choose to love t and have sex with it, and it would be sincere?

Instead of jumping to an extreme situation which is next to impossible to ever actualize, how about considering the actual argument that as a man you can be active emotionally and not reactive. This is for example one of the cores of modern negotiation strategy and fundamentally all conflict resolution. If you actually want to see me do it and you live anywhere close to me then send me a PM and come to me with a dispute with the nastiest person you can find and not only will I resolve the dispute with them we will be friends after it.
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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6/28/2011 8:34:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 11:44:06 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 6/28/2011 11:15:48 AM, tornshoe92 wrote:
At 6/28/2011 3:01:05 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
Can't prove he exists, cant prove he doesnt exist.

I have faith that there is no god.

From a scientific viewpoint, I guess...The creation of the universe can be explained, for one instance, other than the involvement of some Deity, through the Big Bang.
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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6/28/2011 9:10:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 2:16:45 AM, tornshoe92 wrote:
I have a Christian friend that I often discuss religion with. No matter how the discussion starts, it always ends with us talking about faith. I usually talk about how I can't force myself to believe in god because it's not a choice, I'm (like lots of others) simply not mentally built to believe in something for which I have no compelling evidence (hence the discussion of faith). He usually responds by asserting that it's just my brain telling me I can't and that if I truly want to believe, then god will help me to believe. The problem is that the discussion comes to a stand-still, with me not having a reason to believe in god, and him saying that it's "something you have to ovrcome". So could someone here explain how to get past this blockade in the conversation? If any Christians would also like to answer that'd be great. For example, how would I know that god is telling me to believe?

You should just start messing with him. Invoke the O'Reilly argument and see how he reacts to discern whether he's really a mook or not.

"You know, I'm starting to have a change of heart. Tides go in, tides go out. Never a miscommunication. Pretty strange if everything is random."
tornshoe92
Posts: 361
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6/29/2011 12:55:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I guess it's just an impasse. I'm going to his bible study with some of our other friends just for shits and kicks.
"Next time I see a little old lady going to church I am going kick her in the ovaries because she is personally responsible for this. Thanks Izbo." -C_N
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/29/2011 1:09:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have faith that God created the Heavens and the Earth and also that he is a figment of our imaginations. Christian Existentialism FTW.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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6/29/2011 1:26:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 7:48:04 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 6/28/2011 7:28:53 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/28/2011 5:46:39 PM, tkubok wrote:

Really? So if i present to you a truly spiteful, and the most ugliest girl alive, you could choose to love her and it would be sincere?

Yes. You are a man not a dog, there is no need to be so limited as to be reactive emotionally.

So if i were to present to you a male donkey, you would be able to choose to love t and have sex with it, and it would be sincere?

But this is not equivalent to believing in God. In this case, God can be compared to a totally hot girl who is willing to go out with you just if you make yourself believe that you love her. She's willing to do anything, and make your life better, in general.
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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6/29/2011 4:47:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 3:18:31 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/28/2011 2:41:45 PM, tkubok wrote:

Ask him to provide an example other than a belief in a God, where you could possibly TRULY believe it to be true just by choice.

Love.

Whats love got to do, got to do with it?
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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6/29/2011 4:51:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 7:48:04 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 6/28/2011 7:28:53 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 6/28/2011 5:46:39 PM, tkubok wrote:

Really? So if i present to you a truly spiteful, and the most ugliest girl alive, you could choose to love her and it would be sincere?

Yes. You are a man not a dog, there is no need to be so limited as to be reactive emotionally.

So if i were to present to you a male donkey, you would be able to choose to love t and have sex with it, and it would be sincere?

Why include "have sex with it"? Love doesn't need to include sex.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/29/2011 9:13:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/29/2011 4:47:41 AM, Thaddeus wrote:

Whats love got to do, got to do with it?

Stephen Covey in his book on the Eight Habit has a chapter on this expressing how love is a verb not a noun. He later extends this into paradigm shifting and it is really all an extension of the first principle of taking responsibility.
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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6/29/2011 12:47:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/28/2011 3:01:05 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
Can't prove he exists, cant prove he doesnt exist.

Go agnostic.

I disagree.
You can disprove the existence of any God that people worship today based on scriptural contradictions, scientific impossibilities, historical contradictions, and philosophical arguments such as the argument from God being an immoral jerk. Also the philosophical arguments not limited to scripture based God such as the argument from evil.

While it is true that you technically never refute the possibility of a deity, consider Bertrand Russel's famous Teapot analogy:

"Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of skeptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense."

Atheism is the way to go.
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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6/29/2011 12:52:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/29/2011 12:47:22 PM, jat93 wrote:

You can disprove the existence of any God that people worship today based on scriptural contradictions, scientific impossibilities, historical contradictions, and philosophical arguments such as the argument from God being an immoral jerk. Also the philosophical arguments not limited to scripture based God such as the argument from evil.

I think you just became Kenyon's new BFF.

While it is true that you technically never refute the possibility of a deity ...

Depends on the characterization, a deist for example can not be refuted only more and more explained away.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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6/29/2011 1:34:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/29/2011 12:47:22 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 6/28/2011 3:01:05 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
Can't prove he exists, cant prove he doesnt exist.

Go agnostic.

I disagree.
You can disprove the existence of any God that people worship today based on scriptural contradictions, scientific impossibilities, historical contradictions, and philosophical arguments such as the argument from God being an immoral jerk. Also the philosophical arguments not limited to scripture based God such as the argument from evil.

While it is true that you technically never refute the possibility of a deity, consider Bertrand Russel's famous Teapot analogy:

"Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of skeptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense."

Ill debate you on the problem of evil.

Atheism is the way to go.
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